Hemi crankshaft - rear flange

Hemi crankshaft - rear flange - 05/02/12 10:38 PM

I am looking at buying this (new) crankshaft.
I've checked the spec-sheet etc from the seller and I am comfortable with it.

As I don't have a reference part to check against (it's in the US and I am in Australia), I need to check if the flywheel flange will work for my combo or I can make it work.

These are my only concerns & hopefully you guys can set me straight:
1. it doesn't have a step-register for flywheel .?.
2. doesn't have locating dowels for flywheel ? the bolts carry the entire locating load as well as clamping load is that ok?

Sorry about pic quality. if anyone has pictures of std Hemi forged crank flywheel flange it'd be appreciated. otherwise i may have to go down a custom flywheel route to suit this crank.

cheers, Darren

Posted By: JohnRR

Re: Hemi crankshaft - rear flange - 05/02/12 10:50 PM

That is a fueler crank flange and it uses a flywheel like an earlier Hemi, they had a flywheel that was located by the OD of the flange.

I'm pretty sure KB sells an insert to give you a converter/flywheel register in the center or you could just make one when you get the crank .

Posted By: AndyF

Re: Hemi crankshaft - rear flange - 05/02/12 11:01 PM

Those cranks are usually not a good idea. Besides the flat flange, they often use a different keyway up front, and are usually super heavy. There was a post recently from a guy trying to figure out how to get a special damper made so it would fit the crank that he got a good deal on.

Posted By: Keith Black®

Re: Hemi crankshaft - rear flange - 05/02/12 11:58 PM

Quote:

Those cranks are usually not a good idea. Besides the flat flange, they often use a different keyway up front, and are usually super heavy. There was a post recently from a guy trying to figure out how to get a special damper made so it would fit the crank that he got a good deal on.

Thx Andy. the seller has indicated bobweight 2450g .. is that heavy? it's EN30B crower. it's the right stroke that I am after (4.5) but has larger 2.375 journals.
I would need to be able to run Milodon gear drive and ATI balancer. it has 2 x 1/4 keyways which is ok as I am running blower pulley.

here's a pic of the snout:

Attached picture 7189787-HPIM4699.JPG

Posted By: hemi-itis

Re: Hemi crankshaft - rear flange - 05/03/12 12:08 AM

The register on your ATI is 2.25 and the register on the blower pullies are 2.00.You will need to open the the ID of the spacer deep enough for the spacer to be flat on the damper.
The crank needs the insert for the register.

Attached picture 7189797-GARAGE2031.jpg

Posted By: ro23car

Re: Hemi crankshaft - rear flange - 05/03/12 12:11 AM

Quote:

Those cranks are usually not a good idea. Besides the flat flange, they often use a different keyway up front, and are usually super heavy. There was a post recently from a guy trying to figure out how to get a special damper made so it would fit the crank that he got a good deal on.

i have one in my engine i think my bobweight is 2385. the flange is thicker than a normal crank. so you have to either cut down the flange or the lugs on the conveter. i dont know what to tell you about a flywheel,in the end i dont have a problem using fueler cranks.

Posted By: Keith Black®

Re: Hemi crankshaft - rear flange - 05/03/12 12:43 AM

the asking price for this crank is about the same as a new forged 4340 crank from crower. it isa great looking crank but is looking like hard work.

so I am tossing up whether the strength difference is worth the effort for the things i will have to accommodate, like:
-weight difference ??
-rear flywheel flange machining and/or custom flywheel etc
-special balancer
-any extra work required as a result of dealing with the above

crank will need to be strong enough to handle infrequent use at 1,500hp & 1,200 ft/lbs.
?? &the 4340 may bolt straight in.
D

Posted By: astjp2

Re: Hemi crankshaft - rear flange - 05/03/12 12:45 AM

I would get a K1 or Callies, the K1 is around 600.00 USD, the Callies is about double that if you are lucky to find one for that price. Tim

Posted By: ro23car

Re: Hemi crankshaft - rear flange - 05/03/12 12:55 AM

Quote:

the asking price for this crank is about the same as a new forged 4340 crank from crower. it isa great looking crank but is looking like hard work.

so I am tossing up whether the strength difference is worth the effort for the things i will have to accommodate, like:
-weight difference ??
-rear flywheel flange machining and/or custom flywheel etc
-special balancer
-any extra work required as a result of dealing with the above

crank will need to be strong enough to handle infrequent use at 1,500hp & 1,200 ft/lbs.
?? &the 4340 may bolt straight in.
D

no issues with my ati balancer. jus have the flange cut down. i have 1 in my engine and 1 spare.

Posted By: Keith Black®

Re: Hemi crankshaft - rear flange - 05/03/12 01:00 AM

Quote:

I would get a K1 or Callies, the K1 is around 600.00 USD, the Callies is about double that if you are lucky to find one for that price. Tim

...Serious?

..a $600 crank in a $30k engine just doesn't "feel" right!
I may be wrong, any feedback on these cranks?

Posted By: hemi-itis

Re: Hemi crankshaft - rear flange - 05/03/12 02:02 AM

By the time you get done with the bells & whistles,your better off with a billit crank and have no doubt

Posted By: Performance Only

Re: Hemi crankshaft - rear flange - 05/03/12 02:21 AM

Quote:

Quote:

I would get a K1 or Callies, the K1 is around 600.00 USD, the Callies is about double that if you are lucky to find one for that price. Tim

...Serious?

..a $600 crank in a $30k engine just doesn't "feel" right!
I may be wrong, any feedback on these cranks?

I handle the K-1 and Callies brands, as well as a few others, but before i could make a recommendation on a crankshaft, i'd want to know which power adder you'll be using to make 1500 HP and how much of it is the power adder vs. N/A ?

Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: Hemi crankshaft - rear flange - 05/03/12 02:52 AM

Buy the new 426 type Crower forged steel crank and have it made the way you want it

I use to buy used Top fueler cranks like those, a lot of guys did in SO CA and use them in wedge motors, it takes some work and modifications to make them fit and work. That was before the cheaper Chinese imported cranks where available. I buy and use the forged 4340 Ohio brand stroker cranks now, they have the Hemi 8 bolt flange on them

BTW, Ohio Crankshaft CO is offering billet steel cranks now also

Posted By: JohnRR

Re: Hemi crankshaft - rear flange - 05/03/12 02:57 AM

Quote:

I would get Callies, the K1 is around 830.00 USD, the Callies is about double that if you are lucky to find one for that price. Tim

Fixed

The K1 of today is no longer the K1 of yesterday, the K1 is now completely an offshore part including finish machining.

Wayne Brewer has a NEW 4.5" Callies for sale in the race parts section

Posted By: ro23car

Re: Hemi crankshaft - rear flange - 05/03/12 03:47 AM

Quote:

By the time you get done with the bells & whistles,your better off with a billit crank and have no doubt

i believe he is talking about a billet crank.

Posted By: Keith Black®

Re: Hemi crankshaft - rear flange - 05/03/12 05:29 AM

Quote:

jus have the flange cut down. i have 1 in my engine and 1 spare.

Do you mean the rear flange? this is the spec:

Quote:

rear flange is 4.8125 diameter with a 2.0504 diameter x .140 deep counter bore and a .907 diameter x 1.125 deep pilot bearing hole

Do you know if the front /snout dimensions are standard on one of these cranks ?

Is it heavy at 2,450g?
My calculations for this scenario depending on my rod choice, dictate that the pistons + rings + pins + locks + oil with a compression height of between 1.375-1.575 and 35cc dome would weigh in at circa 935g to 1,025g.

Does this range sound about right ,or would the crank be too heavy?

thanks of your help

Attached picture 7190350-Crankshaft1.JPG

Posted By: SNK-EYZ

Re: Hemi crankshaft - rear flange - 05/03/12 06:34 AM

Quote:

That is a fueler crank flange and it uses a flywheel like an earlier Hemi, they had a flywheel that was located by the OD of the flange.

I'm pretty sure KB sells an insert to give you a converter/flywheel register in the center or you could just make one when you get the crank .

Sounds like what you need is

I bought mine from Keith Black.

Quote:

Those cranks are usually not a good idea. Besides the flat flange, they often use a different keyway up front, and are usually super heavy. There was a post recently from a guy trying to figure out how to get a special damper made so it would fit the crank that he got a good deal on.

That would be me, the damper is supposed to arrive sometime today (Thursday).
The problem was that the crank (a Keith Black Billet) had 2, 1/4 inch key-ways cut in it (one at 90 degrees and at 270 degrees).
My engine builder said if I wanted to build it right, just order the custom made damper and be done with it.
Most people said broach a key-way at 0 degrees and silicone or epoxy the extra key-ways and use an off the shelf harmonic balancer.
He said, "No, it will leak oil from there!"

Since he's the expert building it, not me, I order the balancer.

Posted By: ro23car

Re: Hemi crankshaft - rear flange - 05/03/12 12:22 PM

Quote:

Quote:

jus have the flange cut down. i have 1 in my engine and 1 spare.

Do you mean the rear flange? this is the spec:
Quote:

rear flange is 4.8125 diameter with a 2.0504 diameter x .140 deep counter bore and a .907 diameter x 1.125 deep pilot bearing hole

Do you know if the front /snout dimensions are standard on one of these cranks ?

Is it heavy at 2,450g?
My calculations for this scenario depending on my rod choice, dictate that the pistons + rings + pins + locks + oil with a compression height of between 1.375-1.575 and 35cc dome would weigh in at circa 935g to 1,025g.

Does this range sound about right ,or would the crank be too heavy?

thanks of your help

what you have to do is measure the thickness of the the rear flange,then have it cut to atch that of a regular crank. i have a automatic trans i made up the difference by cutting the lugs down on the converter.

Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: Hemi crankshaft - rear flange - 05/03/12 06:34 PM

The depth of the backside(transmission side) of the crankshaft flange to the back of the block is different(longer) on the old top fuler cranks than the stock later model(1962 and up) cranks are

Several solutions as already mentioned, one not mention is a thin spacer plate between the trans and block to move the trans back from the crank flange

Posted By: Keith Black®

Re: Hemi crankshaft - rear flange - 05/03/12 11:48 PM

Quote:

The depth of the backside(transmission side) of the crankshaft flange to the back of the block is different(longer) on the old top fuler cranks than the stock later model(1962 and up) cranks are Several solutions as already mentioned, one not mention is a thin spacer plate between the trans and block to move the trans back from the crank flange

any idea of what the difference is ..? maybe i could machine the flange thinner leaving a step register.

Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: Hemi crankshaft - rear flange - 05/04/12 04:55 AM

If I knew I would tell you

But I don't

Maybe one of the machine shops or machinest can come up with that information

If not try E mailing Kieth Black and ask them

I've bought a bunch of thier early hemi crankshaft adapter rings to use late model torque converters on the early top fueler stroker cranks like your wanting to use

Do you have a late model B, RB or 426 Hemi crank to use to measure off of? I can provide the late model crank flange thickness if you need that

The part I would worry about is the distance from the back of the motor to the flywheel flange distance

Posted By: RUNCHARGER

Re: Hemi crankshaft - rear flange - 05/04/12 03:23 PM

Are you going to be happy with the cracks in this crank after you do all this work to make it fit?

Sheldon

Posted By: LA360

Re: Hemi crankshaft - rear flange - 05/04/12 11:21 PM

I would be weighing up how much time I was going to spend and any extra $$$ to get a crank like that to work for you. Weigh that up against a crank spec'd out for what you want. More often than not the fuel crank ends up costing more.

Posted By: Keith Black®

Re: Hemi crankshaft - rear flange - 05/04/12 11:34 PM

Quote:

I would be weighing up how much time I was going to spend and any extra $$$ to get a crank like that to work for you. Weigh that up against a crank spec'd out for what you want. More often than not the fuel crank ends up costing more.

Yep, it's starting to look that way. I guess the question is whether a Crower 4340 crank will handle the odd 1,500 hp burst... or whether I need to order a custom EN30B piece...

Posted By: gregsdart

Re: Hemi crankshaft - rear flange - 04/18/14 08:13 AM

I am a big fan of center counter weights, which that crank has. If it isn't too much hassle, and it hasn't seen a lot of abuse, I would go with it. The stress it takes off the block is quite a bit. On top of that, you will be hard pressed to hurt it if it is new, or low use.
I had cap walk at 2432 bobweight. I put in a center weighted Crower crank and it went away. That was in a Mega block with cross bolts.

Posted By: camastomcat

Re: Hemi crankshaft - rear flange - 04/18/14 02:25 PM

Quote:

I am a big fan of center counter weights, which that crank has. If it isn't too much hassle, and it hasn't seen a lot of abuse, I would go with it. The stress it takes off the block is quite a bit. On top of that, you will be hard pressed to hurt it if it is new, or low use.
I had cap walk at 2432 bobweight. I put in a center weighted Crower crank and it went away. That was in a Mega block with cross bolts.

This crankshaft was something I ordered and is new. I'll pick it up later today, and then will decide what bushing I need.

Posted By: go green

Re: Hemi crankshaft - rear flange - 04/18/14 04:10 PM

Quote:

Quote:

The depth of the backside(transmission side) of the crankshaft flange to the back of the block is different(longer) on the old top fuler cranks than the stock later model(1962 and up) cranks are Several solutions as already mentioned, one not mention is a thin spacer plate between the trans and block to move the trans back from the crank flange

any idea of what the difference is ..? maybe i could machine the flange thinner leaving a step register.

.100 " longer in the back and .100" in the front for a bryant fuel crank

As for the adapter rings

I called kb and he said that he has them in stock and is looking at one in his hand as we talked on the phone so I ordered it . I waited a month and a half and it still never recieved it , so I machined one my self . A week later the one from kb shows up

I think ATI sells the adapter also .