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400 BB Mopar dyno test part 2

Posted By: Brian Hafliger

400 BB Mopar dyno test part 2 - 03/15/12 05:30 AM

I wanted to try the Victor std. port heads on this 400 with a cam change and bump in compression to see how much power we can get out of a somewhat budget type build.

What I didn't know is that Edelbrock has changed their Victor heads! A new heart shaped chamber and smaller more restrictive intake bowls.
I was worried about them performing well since the intake ports are down on flow compared to the older castings.
I was very happy to see a pretty decent amount of power for a pump gas budget deal. No porting was done, on anything.

New spec's are:
New Victor heads, OOTB with our valve job and small chamber cut.
Compression at 10.6:1.
Hughes 1.7 rockers (VERY nice rockers by the way!!).
Tried both the rpm intake, and victor intake which made the best avg. power over the rpm!
Holley TRUE Ultra 950HP
Still used the 1 7/8 TTI headers, same bottom end as prior but changed the cam to a custom grind: 255-260 @ .050 on a 110lca and .648/.638 gross lift.
And all the power came in at a very respectable rpm IMO.

I would highly recommend some porting on these heads to make the best of them, but like I said it was a budget type build on pump gas.

Still, if you look at the TQ and HP curves it's making really good avg. power AND torque.

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Posted By: Brian Hafliger

Re: 400 BB Mopar dyno test part 2 - 03/15/12 05:31 AM



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Posted By: Brian Hafliger

Re: 400 BB Mopar dyno test part 2 - 03/15/12 05:32 AM



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Posted By: Brian Hafliger

Re: 400 BB Mopar dyno test part 2 - 03/15/12 05:32 AM



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Posted By: Brian Hafliger

Re: 400 BB Mopar dyno test part 2 - 03/15/12 05:33 AM

Difference between the 2 builds...

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Posted By: Brian Hafliger

Re: 400 BB Mopar dyno test part 2 - 03/15/12 05:36 AM

pic1

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Re: 400 BB Mopar dyno test part 2 - 03/15/12 05:47 AM

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Re: 400 BB Mopar dyno test part 2 - 03/15/12 05:57 AM

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Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: 400 BB Mopar dyno test part 2 - 03/15/12 06:29 AM

What do you think of reducing the oil pressure some? What weight and type oil and oil temps? Is the AFR going fat on one side or is there something goofy on the chart? It is amazing (and satifying) sometimes what results we can get experimenting
Posted By: 493_DART

Re: 400 BB Mopar dyno test part 2 - 03/15/12 08:36 AM

Are those rockers a newer design from Hughes ?

They look SWEET !!!


did the victor chamber change as far as cc's OOTB ?

I could be way wrong ..... but is there a lot more in it? with that high lift cam and 1.7 rockers + victors....should be 550+ hp ?
Just curious--im not an engine builder
Posted By: gregsdart

Re: 400 BB Mopar dyno test part 2 - 03/15/12 12:25 PM

Thanks for the post, Brian, love to read this stuff. Any chance you might try stealth heads on this combo?
Posted By: tboomer

Re: 400 BB Mopar dyno test part 2 - 03/15/12 12:49 PM

Great thread,Brian! I am also curious on the cc's out of the box. I hope my Victors are done soon!
Posted By: ZIPPY

Re: 400 BB Mopar dyno test part 2 - 03/15/12 02:09 PM

Keep up the good work Brian
Posted By: HardcoreB

Re: 400 BB Mopar dyno test part 2 - 03/15/12 03:08 PM

Good thread Brian.
Posted By: Chris2581

Re: 400 BB Mopar dyno test part 2 - 03/15/12 03:19 PM

Quote:

Thanks for the post, Brian, love to read this stuff. Any chance you might try stealth heads on this combo?




A Stealth head dyno test would be great.
Posted By: BradH

Re: 400 BB Mopar dyno test part 2 - 03/15/12 03:41 PM

I'd not heard that Edelbrock was revising the Victor heads. Can you answer any of these questions?

Got any "old" vs. "new" flow tests for OOB standard-port Victors?

What size are the new chambers?

Any other changes to the new Victors besides chamber design and bowl dimensions?

Thanks,
Brad
Posted By: Brian Hafliger

Re: 400 BB Mopar dyno test part 2 - 03/15/12 04:28 PM

Thanks guys!
They are 72cc, but after valve job/chamber cut they ended up at 74.5cc.
I milled them down to 70cc to make 10.6:1.

Yes I was a bit disappointed in the power...we were planning on having 550'ish HP and after talking with Edelbrock they are not changing the head anymore so this is how they'll be. They told us the head is now geared more for the PORTER or ENGINE BUILDER...kinda sucks because the old port was really a bolt it on and make some power deal and now, just like every other Mopar head out there it needs TLC.
But....after some port work I'd say it's going to flat out work. I'd bet with porting we'd see that missing 40+HP.

No other changes seem to be in place from what I could tell.
Still for 2500.00 more than the mild 427HP version it made decent power. Would have been nice to hit 550's but porting put it over budget.
Posted By: BradH

Re: 400 BB Mopar dyno test part 2 - 03/15/12 05:14 PM

Now you have me fighting the urge to go buy a(nother) set of the "original" Victors from a guy near where one of my cousin lives that's being sold for a few hundred $$$ less than new. /
Posted By: 64Post

Re: 400 BB Mopar dyno test part 2 - 03/15/12 05:44 PM

Quote:

Thanks guys!
They are 72cc, but after valve job/chamber cut they ended up at 74.5cc.
I milled them down to 70cc to make 10.6:1.

Yes I was a bit disappointed in the power...we were planning on having 550'ish HP and after talking with Edelbrock they are not changing the head anymore so this is how they'll be. They told us the head is now geared more for the PORTER or ENGINE BUILDER...kinda sucks because the old port was really a bolt it on and make some power deal and now, just like every other Mopar head out there it needs TLC.
But....after some port work I'd say it's going to flat out work. I'd bet with porting we'd see that missing 40+HP.

No other changes seem to be in place from what I could tell.
Still for 2500.00 more than the mild 427HP version it made decent power. Would have been nice to hit 550's but porting put it over budget.




Have you ported a set of the old victors? If so, what number did you get out of them?

Good thing this wasn't a 4.15 stroke build up, otherwise I would have to sell a kidney to buy the engine from you when you were done...
Posted By: BSB67

Re: 400 BB Mopar dyno test part 2 - 03/16/12 03:21 AM

Thanks Brian.

What was the average and max power difference between the intakes?
Posted By: Brian Hafliger

Re: 400 BB Mopar dyno test part 2 - 03/16/12 03:57 AM

Quote:

Thanks Brian.

What was the average and max power difference between the intakes?




I'll post the graphs tomorrow nite. AVG HP and TQ was only 1 between the 2 intakes! It's a direct trade...low rpm power vs. high rpm power. If you call 5000-6500rpm high...LOL!
Posted By: hudsonhornet7x

Re: 400 BB Mopar dyno test part 2 - 03/16/12 02:40 PM

I just picked up a set of standard port victors ( new in box) on ebay for $ 900

How do I tell if the heads are the newer style or the original?

I am excited to use these heads and they will be going on a 431 motor.
Posted By: 440Jim

Re: 400 BB Mopar dyno test part 2 - 03/16/12 02:55 PM

My first look at the new build dyno sheet, showed a fairly high torque peak (5100). So I looked at the previous build and it was much lower (4200). That much higher torque peak surprised me. The entire rpm range was moved up considerably, but as you mentioned the peak RPM wasn't too high.
Posted By: BradH

Re: 400 BB Mopar dyno test part 2 - 03/16/12 05:33 PM

Quote:

How do I tell if the heads are the newer style or the original?



If the chambers don't look like the pics that Brian posted above, they're the original style. It'll be pretty obvious if they're the older version.
Posted By: hudsonhornet7x

Re: 400 BB Mopar dyno test part 2 - 03/16/12 06:02 PM

Quote:

Quote:

How do I tell if the heads are the newer style or the original?



If the chambers don't look like the pics that Brian posted above, they're the original style. It'll be pretty obvious if they're the older version.




Thanks. By my pictures it looks like I have the older style. Is the older style preferrable to the new?
Posted By: Brian Hafliger

Re: 400 BB Mopar dyno test part 2 - 03/16/12 06:23 PM

OOTB the newer head will be down on flow and power, but has a better chamber.
I would not run the new head without a good valve job and chamber cut. That's what we did and it makes the head MUCH better.
Bowl porting is usually around 200-400 dollars depending on who does it, but I know after porting these heads will be well over 300cfm at .500 lift. Ours went 286cfm at .500 AFTER valve job and chamber cut.
But.......remember the chamber of the newer head is better (after chamber cut and some porting)and would really lend itself to a pump gas engine needing a large quench area.

From what I see, if you compared the older head to the newer head FULLY PORTED the newer head will make more power. But OOTB...no way!
Posted By: Brian Hafliger

Re: 400 BB Mopar dyno test part 2 - 03/17/12 04:12 AM

RPM intake graph:

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Posted By: Brian Hafliger

Re: 400 BB Mopar dyno test part 2 - 03/17/12 04:13 AM

RPM intake

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Posted By: Brian Hafliger

Re: 400 BB Mopar dyno test part 2 - 03/17/12 04:14 AM

RPM vs. Victor intake:

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Posted By: G_bob

Re: 400 BB Mopar dyno test part 2 - 03/17/12 08:05 AM

Interesting Brian, that this motor made about the same peak numbers as Mrs Gbob's 426 with the 950 on it.
Completely different combos, but similar peak outputs (although at different rpm levels).
426 results
Posted By: tboomer

Re: 400 BB Mopar dyno test part 2 - 03/17/12 04:50 PM

I like that graph...When I get my Victors back,I will post the numbers,Brian. I am pretty sure they are the new style.
Posted By: hudsonhornet7x

Re: 400 BB Mopar dyno test part 2 - 03/17/12 07:01 PM

Thanks for the information about this combo

I have two questions:

1. I need a reliable set of rockers for my victor's and I need to know what brand will hold up to heavy street use ( 3-5,000 miles per summer)

2. I have a 431 with these heads being built. I would like to cnc the heads to make them flow as well as possible. Car is a 68 charger, 10.7 compression, 4 speed and 4:10 gears. What cam do I need?
Posted By: Brian Hafliger

Re: 400 BB Mopar dyno test part 2 - 03/17/12 09:25 PM

Quote:

Thanks for the information about this combo

I have two questions:

1. I need a reliable set of rockers for my victor's and I need to know what brand will hold up to heavy street use ( 3-5,000 miles per summer)

2. I have a 431 with these heads being built. I would like to cnc the heads to make them flow as well as possible. Car is a 68 charger, 10.7 compression, 4 speed and 4:10 gears. What cam do I need?




Hand porting is as good or better...Hughes rockers will fit the bill...what style of cam?
Posted By: hudsonhornet7x

Re: 400 BB Mopar dyno test part 2 - 03/17/12 09:35 PM

I currently have a hydraulic flat tappet, but I am open to suggestions as to what type of cam and grind would make a good combination. I want to make the correct choice, and if I need to get rid of what I have previously bought, that is okay.

My cam right now is a comp xe275hl.
Posted By: Brian Hafliger

Re: 400 BB Mopar dyno test part 2 - 03/17/12 09:51 PM

Quote:

I currently have a hydraulic flat tappet, but I am open to suggestions as to what type of cam and grind would make a good combination. I want to make the correct choice, and if I need to get rid of what I have previously bought, that is okay.

My cam right now is a comp xe275hl.




I would go to a solid FT cam, maybe?
Posted By: hudsonhornet7x

Re: 400 BB Mopar dyno test part 2 - 03/17/12 09:56 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I currently have a hydraulic flat tappet, but I am open to suggestions as to what type of cam and grind would make a good combination. I want to make the correct choice, and if I need to get rid of what I have previously bought, that is okay.

My cam right now is a comp xe275hl.




I would go to a solid FT cam, maybe?




I have been thinking along those same lines, but i have no idea where to start. Is a f/t very streetable? Also, What specs do I need to know to make an informed cam choice?
Posted By: Brian Hafliger

Re: 400 BB Mopar dyno test part 2 - 03/17/12 10:09 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

I currently have a hydraulic flat tappet, but I am open to suggestions as to what type of cam and grind would make a good combination. I want to make the correct choice, and if I need to get rid of what I have previously bought, that is okay.

My cam right now is a comp xe275hl.




I would go to a solid FT cam, maybe?




I have been thinking along those same lines, but i have no idea where to start. Is a f/t very streetable? Also, What specs do I need to know to make an informed cam choice?




You'll need to work with an engine builder to get the right cam. There's never too much info!
Posted By: Joshs68

Re: 400 BB Mopar dyno test part 2 - 03/18/12 01:36 AM

I have a question, Will this fit under a stock 68 Charger hood??? Your pictures don't look like it is a very tall setup with the victor heads and RPM intake
I have a 4 spd 4.10 geared 10.4/1 470" low deck in a 68 Charger. I want to upgrade my heads. I am running MP 383/440 aluminum heads/.590 cam I have TTI headers for raised port heads already. Pistons are at 0 deck and chambers are 83cc if I remember correctly.
Posted By: Brian Hafliger

Re: 400 BB Mopar dyno test part 2 - 03/18/12 02:00 AM

Quote:

I have a question, Will this fit under a stock 68 Charger hood??? Your pictures don't look like it is a very tall setup with the victor heads and RPM intake
I have a 4 spd 4.10 geared 10.4/1 470" low deck in a 68 Charger. I want to upgrade my heads. I am running MP 383/440 aluminum heads/.590 cam I have TTI headers for raised port heads already. Pistons are at 0 deck and chambers are 83cc if I remember correctly.




Problem is even with porting I don't think the chambers can get anywhere near that so your compression will go up quite a bit.
Posted By: ahy

Re: 400 BB Mopar dyno test part 2 - 03/18/12 03:07 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

I currently have a hydraulic flat tappet, but I am open to suggestions as to what type of cam and grind would make a good combination. I want to make the correct choice, and if I need to get rid of what I have previously bought, that is okay.

My cam right now is a comp xe275hl.




I would go to a solid FT cam, maybe?




I have been thinking along those same lines, but i have no idea where to start. Is a f/t very streetable? Also, What specs do I need to know to make an informed cam choice?




A FT cam is very much streetable. Lash will need checked once in a while. With good valvetrain parts, a check every 5,000 miles should be more than enough. Even then, it will probably need little to no adjustment. The solid FT will give a little wider power band and better top end perfomrance vs a hydraulic. I think setting lash is a lot more straight forward than setting pre-load on a high performance hydraulic so in a way, mechanical is easier.

Choice depends on your use of the car, engine displacement and mods, drivetrain (transmission/convertor, rear gear), power brake plans and your personal preference. Comp and Hughes have good shelf grinds.

For reference, I'm running a fast rate solid FT in a 496. As recommended by Muscle Motors, it specs out at 243 degree @ .050" intake duration with a 108 degree lobe seperation. Rockers are Comp cast steel "pro magnum" with 3/8" pushrods. It has been a very robust and reliable setup. The engine starts to wake up around 2000 RPM and really sings from roughly 3000 RPM. Peak HP is around 5600 (guess) and it pulls well to and beyond 6k.
Posted By: viperblue72

Re: 400 BB Mopar dyno test part 2 - 03/18/12 03:21 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

I currently have a hydraulic flat tappet, but I am open to suggestions as to what type of cam and grind would make a good combination. I want to make the correct choice, and if I need to get rid of what I have previously bought, that is okay.

My cam right now is a comp xe275hl.




I would go to a solid FT cam, maybe?




I have been thinking along those same lines, but i have no idea where to start. Is a f/t very streetable? Also, What specs do I need to know to make an informed cam choice?




A FT cam is very much streetable. Lash will need checked once in a while. With good valvetrain parts, a check every 5,000 miles should be more than enough. Even then, it will probably need little to no adjustment. The solid FT will give a little wider power band and better top end perfomrance vs a hydraulic. I think setting lash is a lot more straight forward than setting pre-load on a high performance hydraulic so in a way, mechanical is easier.

Choice depends on your use of the car, engine displacement and mods, drivetrain (transmission/convertor, rear gear), power brake plans and your personal preference. Comp and Hughes have good shelf grinds.

For reference, I'm running a fast rate solid FT in a 496. As recommended by Muscle Motors, it specs out at 243 degree @ .050" intake duration with a 108 degree lobe seperation. Rockers are Comp cast steel "pro magnum" with 3/8" pushrods. It has been a very robust and reliable setup. The engine starts to wake up around 2000 RPM and really sings from roughly 3000 RPM. Peak HP is around 5600 (guess) and it pulls well to and beyond 6k.




Yes, but pre-load is one and done. But I prefer solid ft.

Thank You Brian for sharing all of the information. There has been very little information based on experience about the victors.
I really hope the market opens up for the victors before edelbrock cans them.
Posted By: Brian Hafliger

Re: 400 BB Mopar dyno test part 2 - 03/18/12 05:27 AM

It's fun sharing info!!
I'll be building a 440 with these same heads in a month, but with a 275HL cam, 1.5 rockers, 9.8:1, M1 intake, 950HP carb and 1 3/4 header. I'll try the 1 7/8 header at the same time and post those results when I have them.
Posted By: moparmanjames

Re: 400 BB Mopar dyno test part 2 - 03/18/12 07:16 AM

Thanks for sharing, I always wanted to see some testing on a mild cam with a tight lobe separation.

Edit: oops nevermind just reread the first post and saw that you did a cam swap. No wonder the tq and hp were that high on the rpms lol.
Posted By: tjmarcus1

Re: 400 BB Mopar dyno test part 2 - 03/18/12 10:27 PM

how much clearancing did you have to do for the 1.7'S?
Posted By: Brian Hafliger

Re: 400 BB Mopar dyno test part 2 - 03/19/12 12:36 AM

Quote:

how much clearancing did you have to do for the 1.7'S?




Alot!
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