Tore into the engine tonight....**UPDATE 2**

Re: Tore into the engine tonight.... - 01/22/12 08:32 PM

"Usually" anything on to intake side will hurt the performance more than it will on the exhaust side. A friend of mine bent 8 exhaust pushrods in a stocker on a run a few years ago and the car still made a good pass. He loaded up took the car home to get and early start on repairs. He was so excited to see what it would run after the repairs. Well guess what, it ran almost the same. The only thing that baffles me is how someone didn't hear Brian's and say something. That had to be clicking pretty loud.

Posted By: emarine01

Re: Tore into the engine tonight.... - 01/22/12 08:54 PM

Quote:

Found three rockers with so much lash that I am surprised I didn't loose the push rods or lash caps. I stopped with the feeler gauges when I was around .085" so they were real loose. I knew something was wrong when I pulled the intake and found three ports dark when the other five were clean. All three were intake rockers on those "dark" cylinders. I was well past the point where I should have run the valves, but this was a surprise since there was nothing to indicate anything was wrong. No noise, misfire, popping....nothing. I will be replacing the lifters anyway, but what else could have suffered? Can't believe this just went a mid 5.8 in this condition.

What is the definition of < dark cyls > & what would cause this from too much intake lash?

Posted By: 408strokerdart

Re: Tore into the engine tonight.... - 01/22/12 09:13 PM

Quote:

"Usually" anything on to intake side will hurt the performance more than it will on the exhaust side. A friend of mine bent 8 exhaust pushrods in a stocker on a run a few years ago and the car still made a good pass. He loaded up took the car home to get and early start on repairs. He was so excited to see what it would run after the repairs. Well guess what, it ran almost the same. The only thing that baffles me is how someone didn't hear Brian's and say something. That had to be clicking pretty loud.

I am pretty in tune with hearing any changes to the engine and there was just nothing to indicate what I found. Everything still sounded very good. Response was good, etc..

I would have expected it to pick up a little with corrected lash, but not a big change....maybe .05 to .07 in the 1/8th?

There will be alot of changes made on this round. Heads are getting new ports that make them viable to 8400 RPM (current "original" Coleman port is all done at about 7300 RPM with my displacement). I am also only opening the intake valve a net amount after lash and deflection of just over .700". Cam will be re-ground to take the net lift over .800". Jim is right, there should be a sizable gain from these changes and I am putting alot of faith into the work being done.

Posted By: 408strokerdart

Re: Tore into the engine tonight.... - 01/22/12 09:17 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Found three rockers with so much lash that I am surprised I didn't loose the push rods or lash caps. I stopped with the feeler gauges when I was around .085" so they were real loose. I knew something was wrong when I pulled the intake and found three ports dark when the other five were clean. All three were intake rockers on those "dark" cylinders. I was well past the point where I should have run the valves, but this was a surprise since there was nothing to indicate anything was wrong. No noise, misfire, popping....nothing. I will be replacing the lifters anyway, but what else could have suffered? Can't believe this just went a mid 5.8 in this condition.

What is the definition of < dark cyls > & what would cause this from too much intake lash?

The cylinders with the loose intake valve lash all had intake ports that were dark in color....I assume from being overly rich or fuel pooling in the port from nowhere to go? The other ports were as clean as a new build.

Posted By: 408strokerdart

Re: Tore into the engine tonight.... - 01/22/12 09:21 PM

Quote:

Brian I forget what rockers you are running but some
of the adjusters are junk and will pull the threads
out and were soft so the push rods beat the cups...
also as said check the dia of the cup to the PR ball...
3/8 balls DONT FIT on any of the cups

Running 1.7 ratio Jesel.Never heard many bad stories about their adjusters.

Posted By: Jacob Pitt

Re: Tore into the engine tonight.... - 01/22/12 11:08 PM

You going to do any racing this year? Didn't see you at all in 2011.

Posted By: emarine01

Re: Tore into the engine tonight.... - 01/22/12 11:39 PM

Overly rich... fuel pooling in the port... I think this is a interesting observation but not sure its the cause of a dark intake port... JMO... Dark intake tracts are usually from exhaust gasses , yes?... I am not trying to bust your chops on this one just trying to learn

Posted By: jim sciortino

Re: Tore into the engine tonight.... - 01/23/12 12:09 AM

There will be alot of changes made on this round. Heads are getting new ports that make them viable to 8400 RPM (current "original" Coleman port is all done at about 7300 RPM with my displacement). I am also only opening the intake valve a net amount after lash and deflection of just over .700". Cam will be re-ground to take the net lift over .800".

Now we're talkin'.

Posted By: 408strokerdart

Re: Tore into the engine tonight.... - 01/23/12 03:28 AM

Quote:

You going to do any racing this year? Didn't see you at all in 2011.

As soon as I get pieces back and the engine back together we will be out there. I hope to run a bunch this year. You are right though, only went out once last year for a quick test that resulted in some new bests but no data for the logger.

Posted By: 408strokerdart

Re: Tore into the engine tonight.... - 01/23/12 03:29 AM

Quote:

Now we're talkin'.

Gonna be radically different for sure.

Posted By: 408strokerdart

Re: Tore into the engine tonight.... - 01/23/12 03:34 AM

Quote:

Overly rich... fuel pooling in the port... I think this is a interesting observation but not sure its the cause of a dark intake port... JMO... Dark intake tracts are usually from exhaust gasses , yes?... I am not trying to bust your chops on this one just trying to learn

I'm only taking guesses at the cause since they concided with the loose valve lash.I'm not sure what the actual cause is.

I am open to suggestions as to the cause.

Posted By: Leon441

Re: Tore into the engine tonight.... - 01/23/12 04:26 AM

Check your rocker arms. May be a broke bearing or more than likely your adjuster backed off. If you run the proper pushrod length you can only back the adjuster off 1/2 to 3/4 a turn and they bottom out in the rocker arm.

Then again maybe you have some bent valves. That would explain the black in the intake runners.

Leon

Posted By: 408strokerdart

Re: Tore into the engine tonight.... - 01/23/12 04:41 AM

Quote:

Check your rocker arms. May be a broke bearing or more than likely your adjuster backed off. If you run the proper pushrod length you can only back the adjuster off 1/2 to 3/4 a turn and they bottom out in the rocker arm.

Then again maybe you have some bent valves. That would explain the black in the intake runners.

Leon

We will check the valves when everything else is checked, but that would make sense.

The adjusters were still tight and they were only able to be backed off the amount you suggested.

Posted By: Oyvind Mopar

Re: Tore into the engine tonight.... - 01/23/12 10:13 AM

As Leon said, check for bent valves, if bent they will not seat and it could explain the excessive lash....My

Posted By: LA360

Re: Tore into the engine tonight.... - 01/23/12 12:06 PM

When did you check the lash prior to discovering this?

Posted By: 408strokerdart

Re: Tore into the engine tonight.... - 01/23/12 02:35 PM

Quote:

When did you check the lash prior to discovering this?

About 40 passes ago.

Posted By: 408strokerdart

Re: Tore into the engine tonight....UPDATE - 01/27/12 03:05 AM

The culprit of the loose valves was destroyed lifters. One completely gone roller....found three pieces of it, no shaft and only five needle bearings up top. Number 1 cylinder is scored and I need to see how bad it is. I am dreading having to re-bore this and buy new pistons for an engine with so few passes.

Posted By: pittsburghracer

Re: Tore into the engine tonight....UPDATE - 01/27/12 03:08 AM

Sorry to hear that Brian. I hope you caught it before it did major damage.

Posted By: 408strokerdart

Re: Tore into the engine tonight....UPDATE - 01/27/12 03:53 AM

Quote:

Sorry to hear that Brian. I hope you caught it before it did major damage.

Will know more when I get the engine out and on the stand where I can tear the rest down.

Posted By: Plumb Wired

Re: Tore into the engine tonight....UPDATE - 01/27/12 04:00 AM

Sorry to hear about the damage. We have issues as well. I'm about to the point of selling it all.

Posted By: greendart408

Re: Tore into the engine tonight....UPDATE - 01/27/12 04:13 AM

Always something, that blows

Posted By: 408strokerdart

Re: Tore into the engine tonight....UPDATE - 01/27/12 04:22 AM

Quote:

Sorry to hear about the damage. We have issues as well. I'm about to the point of selling it all.

We must be on the same page....it crossed my mind.

Posted By: jim sciortino

Re: Tore into the engine tonight....UPDATE - 01/27/12 04:23 AM

If it's not one thing, it's another....

Good luck with the fix.

Posted By: 340B5

Re: Tore into the engine tonight....UPDATE - 01/27/12 04:53 AM

Quote:

The culprit of the loose valves was destroyed lifters. One completely gone roller....found three pieces of it, no shaft and only five needle bearings up top. Number 1 cylinder is scored and I need to see how bad it is. I am dreading having to re-bore this and buy new pistons for an engine with so few passes.

I'm going through a complete rebuild right now because of a trashed lifter. The oil pump driveshaft was cracked. If that would have went it woulda been far worse.

It amazes me how well they'll run with something going wrong. From now on I'll check things closer if it slows down a tenth or so.

Good luck with it.

Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Tore into the engine tonight....UPDATE - 01/27/12 05:22 AM

Quote:

The culprit of the loose valves was destroyed lifters. One completely gone roller....found three pieces of it, no shaft and only five needle bearings up top. Number 1 cylinder is scored and I need to see how bad it is. I am dreading having to re-bore this and buy new pistons for an engine with so few passes.

I think I have a bad lifter on my W-2 engine... I
havent looked yet to see what the problem is... that'll
wait till I get that engine on the stand... I'll
put the W-9 back in

Posted By: bigtimeauto

Re: Tore into the engine tonight....UPDATE - 01/27/12 06:05 AM

That sucks but now you know the importance of checking valve lash after every pass. if its loose its a pushrod or lifter or rocker, if its tight the valve is pulling through.

Don't get depressed if it was easy to go fast everybody would be!

Posted By: Al_Alguire

Re: Tore into the engine tonight....UPDATE - 01/27/12 07:59 AM

Brian sorry to hear about the problem. Hopefully you caught it before any of those little needles did any real damage to things. I am pretty religous about lash. Even once it is stable we still chack it at every race. That does not guarantee no problems but we rarely let it go more than 10 passes without checking it out.

Believe me I feel your pain. Checking mine at a race after it was not running the number it should, and we are talking a few thou off is how we found the bad LSM cam. Cam apparently lost its heat treat and was peeling material off, found it by lash on two cylinders being off. Caught it before it did much damage but I always check it over if it falls off for any reason.

Posted By: LA360

Re: Tore into the engine tonight....UPDATE - 01/27/12 11:47 AM

Sorry to hear of the damage Brian! Hope it's nothing too serious!
What lifters are you thinking about dropping into there to replace these ones? You were running Crane Ultra Pro's?

Posted By: tboomer

Re: Tore into the engine tonight....UPDATE - 01/27/12 01:39 PM

Sorry to see that,Brian!! I know that needle bearings are all the rage but I don't care for them...I thought someone said Harland Sharp was coming out with one that did not have needles on the wheel but I have not seen one yet....Good luck,man!!

Posted By: 408strokerdart

Re: Tore into the engine tonight....UPDATE - 01/27/12 02:10 PM

Quote:

Sorry to hear of the damage Brian! Hope it's nothing too serious!
What lifters are you thinking about dropping into there to replace these ones? You were running Crane Ultra Pro's?

They were Crane Ultra Pro's. Don't know what I will use next. Possibly Morel since they have a direct replacement for the Crane with the offset that I need. The offset narrows down my selection and I know the oil holes in the bushings work with the crane (pushrod oiled).

As far as serious, probably nothing $3-$4K won't fix.

Posted By: 408strokerdart

Re: Tore into the engine tonight....UPDATE - 01/27/12 02:13 PM

Quote:

Brian sorry to hear about the problem. Hopefully you caught it before any of those little needles did any real damage to things. I am pretty religous about lash. Even once it is stable we still chack it at every race. That does not guarantee no problems but we rarely let it go more than 10 passes without checking it out.

Believe me I feel your pain. Checking mine at a race after it was not running the number it should, and we are talking a few thou off is how we found the bad LSM cam. Cam apparently lost its heat treat and was peeling material off, found it by lash on two cylinders being off. Caught it before it did much damage but I always check it over if it falls off for any reason.

Strange thing Al is that it ran the quickest/fastest it ever has on the last pass. I just can't believe that nothing could be heard. But, yes I did fall off of my normal maintenance routine. That won't happen again.

Posted By: Al_Alguire

Re: Tore into the engine tonight....UPDATE - 01/27/12 05:00 PM

FWIW I have been running Isky EZ Rolls and have had zero isues with the lifters. Plus no needle bearings

The fact that it picked up might say something about the engine combo and camshaft selection

Less lift and less duration and you went faster. Then again the few engines I have had that went BOOM, usually ran thier best the previous pass

Posted By: supercomp

Re: Tore into the engine tonight....UPDATE - 01/27/12 10:54 PM

Sorry about the problem. Those rollers can sneek up and bite you right in the butt.

Posted By: A57_RT

Re: Tore into the engine tonight....UPDATE - 01/27/12 11:17 PM

Its good you found the problems before it cost alot of $$$$, its easy to understand how some things can run well but still have issues.

Take tractor pulling for instance, everytime we brought home first we would find the most damage on post evenet inspections. Or the top fuel guy who wins but burns two pistons doing it

Posted By: 408strokerdart

Re: Tore into the engine tonight....UPDATE - 02/23/12 06:02 AM

Highly disappointed in the findings from tearing down this engine. Seems there are problems at every turn so far.

The heads are at a professional shop to get checked out. If you are reading this and missed the first part, the easy thing to check for me was the valve springs were set up with a installed height that was over .200" from coil bind. Further inspection is finding the following: wrong length valves for the heads, tips of intake valves beat up, intake valves with less than acceptable margin, valve guides with up to .007" clearance, several exhaust valves not even sealing to the seats, etc..

Remember this engine has only about 60 passes on it. I don't think it would have stayed together much longer (in the valvetrain) and it seems that it is a good thing that the improper spring set-up caused the lifter failure or I might have run this until a catastrophic failure occured. These problems didn't just happen in 60 passes....they were there from the start.

It will be put together right this time and should finally run to it's potential.

Posted By: jim sciortino

Re: Tore into the engine tonight....UPDATE - 02/23/12 02:12 PM

Quote:

Highly disappointed in the findings from tearing down this engine. Seems there are problems at every turn so far.

The heads are at a professional shop to get checked out. If you are reading this and missed the first part, the easy thing to check for me was the valve springs were set up with a installed height that was over .200" from coil bind. Further inspection is finding the following: wrong length valves for the heads, tips of intake valves beat up, intake valves with less than acceptable margin, valve guides with up to .007" clearance, several exhaust valves not even sealing to the seats, etc..

Remember this engine has only about 60 passes on it. I don't think it would have stayed together much longer (in the valvetrain) and it seems that it is a good thing that the improper spring set-up caused the lifter failure or I might have run this until a catastrophic failure occured. These problems didn't just happen in 60 passes....they were there from the start.

It will be put together right this time and should finally run to it's potential.

Wow.....

Lucky that thing didn't really hurt itself.

Posted By: J_BODY

Re: Tore into the engine tonight....UPDATE - 02/23/12 02:40 PM

sorry to hear of your loss. I definately know what you're going through as our latest W5 combo banged in two passes. Question for the engine guys watching this: So you are at the track, pull the covers after a few passes and find a rocker that is loose. How "loose" would it take to pull the plug on the day and tear it down hoping to possibly find something?

Posted By: stevet340

Re: Tore into the engine tonight....UPDATE - 02/23/12 02:49 PM

I was wondering how long of a valve do you run? What is the installed height? And, you should check you lash more frequently, after every time out, don't be lazy and assume everything is ok.

Posted By: Plumb Wired

Re: Tore into the engine tonight....UPDATE - 02/23/12 03:05 PM

Brian,

If it helps any I feel your pain and frustration. As you probably know we have issues with our heads as well. I haven't even touched the shortblock yet.

Mike Gray

Posted By: 408strokerdart

Re: Tore into the engine tonight....UPDATE - 02/23/12 06:04 PM

Quote:

I was wondering how long of a valve do you run? What is the installed height? And, you should check you lash more frequently, after every time out, don't be lazy and assume everything is ok.

I don't know exact length of valve, but I do know they are longer than normal for this head. Spring installed height was around 2.100 (from the build sheet), but actual measurement was around 2.065. This was for a cam that had .737" lift before the .026" lash and rocker arm/push rod deflection, so you can do the math. It was a comp triple spring with about 330# on the seat.

I run lash about every 20 passes. This could easily be one race weekend. I ran lash more often when I ran Harland Sharp rockers. The Jesel's should be better.

Posted By: 408strokerdart

Re: Tore into the engine tonight....UPDATE - 02/23/12 06:06 PM

Quote:

Brian,

If it helps any I feel your pain and frustration. As you probably know we have issues with our heads as well. I haven't even touched the shortblock yet.

Mike Gray

Yes. I know you are feeling the same pains. I didn't get the "complete" low down on your issues, but I got the jist of it.

We might be able to put our heads together and make one "good" set.

Posted By: dartman366

Re: Tore into the engine tonight....UPDATE - 02/23/12 06:13 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I was wondering how long of a valve do you run? What is the installed height? And, you should check you lash more frequently, after every time out, don't be lazy and assume everything is ok.

I don't know exact length of valve, but I do know they are longer than normal for this head. Spring installed height was around 2.100 (from the build sheet), but actual measurement was around 2.065. This was for a cam that had .737" lift before the .026" lash and rocker arm/push rod deflection, so you can do the math. It was a comp triple spring with about 330# on the seat.

I run lash about every 20 passes. This could easily be one race weekend. I ran lash more often when I ran Harland Sharp rockers. The Jesel's should be better.

Is that seat pressure really necessary? I am running only .688 lift and mine are set at 240# with a 2.00 installed height.

Posted By: S/ST 3040

Re: Tore into the engine tonight....UPDATE - 02/23/12 06:21 PM

Posted By: JohnRR

Re: Tore into the engine tonight....UPDATE - 02/23/12 07:13 PM

Quote:

Number 1 cylinder is scored and I need to see how bad it is. I am dreading having to re-bore this and buy new pistons for an engine with so few passes.

What about just sleeving that one hole if the piston is still ok ?

Posted By: 408strokerdart

Re: Tore into the engine tonight....UPDATE - 02/23/12 07:21 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Number 1 cylinder is scored and I need to see how bad it is. I am dreading having to re-bore this and buy new pistons for an engine with so few passes.

What about just sleeving that one hole if the piston is still ok ?

Waiting on the machine shop....hopefully they will tell me 95% will hone out. If it will, that's what I will do. I have a couple of other lower cost options if required.

Posted By: 408strokerdart

Re: Tore into the engine tonight....UPDATE - 02/23/12 07:25 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

I was wondering how long of a valve do you run? What is the installed height? And, you should check you lash more frequently, after every time out, don't be lazy and assume everything is ok.

I don't know exact length of valve, but I do know they are longer than normal for this head. Spring installed height was around 2.100 (from the build sheet), but actual measurement was around 2.065. This was for a cam that had .737" lift before the .026" lash and rocker arm/push rod deflection, so you can do the math. It was a comp triple spring with about 330# on the seat.

I run lash about every 20 passes. This could easily be one race weekend. I ran lash more often when I ran Harland Sharp rockers. The Jesel's should be better.

Is that seat pressure really necessary? I am running only .688 lift and mine are set at 240# with a 2.00 installed height.

I expect the new spring package to be in that range. Probably about 250 to 275 on the seat, installed at 2.00". New cam lobe is undecided at this point, but will probably be somewhere between .765 and .800 lift. Installed height will be set to get somewhere around .070 from coil bind (give or take).

Posted By: tboomer

Re: Tore into the engine tonight....UPDATE - 02/23/12 07:48 PM

No help to ya,Brian...But I wish ya the best of luck!

Posted By: 408strokerdart

Re: Tore into the engine tonight....UPDATE - 02/23/12 09:20 PM

Quote:

No help to ya,Brian...But I wish ya the best of luck!

Thanks Ted. From what I'm finding and is being corrected, I have no doubt that we will find the 8 second zone this year. It might take near perfect conditions though.

Posted By: JohnRR

Re: Tore into the engine tonight....UPDATE - 02/23/12 09:34 PM

Who is responsible to that stellar work on the heads before ?

Posted By: all spooled up

Re: Tore into the engine tonight....UPDATE - 02/23/12 09:38 PM

hey that s--ks sorry to her that hows your short block..

Posted By: 408strokerdart

Re: Tore into the engine tonight....UPDATE - 02/23/12 10:07 PM

Quote:

hey that s--ks sorry to her that hows your short block..

We will see when I find the rest of the schrapnel. I think it is going to be ok though.

Posted By: jim sciortino

Re: Tore into the engine tonight....UPDATE - 02/23/12 10:34 PM

If it's in the budget to spintron, do it.

I'll never do another engine without it again.

Posted By: HardcoreB

Re: Tore into the engine tonight....UPDATE 2 - 02/23/12 11:19 PM

I have been following this saga and all I can say besides sorry for the situation is I hope it doesn't derail your return this year. At least you'll pick-up in performance when you do return. Did you buy this engine used? If you can say, I think alot of people might want to know. Anyway again best wishes for your return.

Posted By: LA360

Re: Tore into the engine tonight....UPDATE - 02/24/12 12:32 AM

Quote:

If it's in the budget to spintron, do it.

I'll never do another engine without it again.

What has time on a spintron set you back?? It would be great info for those reading this post

Posted By: 408strokerdart

Re: Tore into the engine tonight....UPDATE - 02/24/12 02:08 AM

The only point of my post was to point out things that I am finding that are not what I would have done. Maybe this is how some builders put things together. Not really for me to judge....thats why I am just laying out the facts.

To be fair, I should add some information about the original build. These heads were located for me (used). I was told that they had valves, but I paid for new springs, spring cups, titanium retainers, locks and push rods. This tear down is the first time I have seen and inspected these parts in depth. The short block though, everything was new and very expensive.

Posted By: jim sciortino

Re: Tore into the engine tonight....UPDATE - 02/24/12 02:13 AM

Quote:

Quote:

If it's in the budget to spintron, do it.

I'll never do another engine without it again.

What has time on a spintron set you back?? It would be great info for those reading this post

We haven't used a spintron on any of our previous builds, but after talking with guys about valvetrain reliability when everything is happy, it will be incorporated into our next build.

Like anything else, there is a cost/benefit, but IMO, for engines that see 8000rpm and up it's beneficial.

Posted By: W5DART66

Re: Tore into the engine tonight....UPDATE - 02/24/12 09:13 PM

Flow #s right off engine (Brian's W8s) Not so good start to go bad at .600" lots of noise in port.

CCFM
Lift No. 1
-------- -------
0.0500
0.1000 0.0
0.1500 0.0
0.2000 137.5
0.2500 168.4
0.3000 203.2
0.3500 237.2
0.4000 269.6
0.4500 300.3
0.5000 326.8
0.5500 346.4
0.6000 365.2
0.6500 369.5
0.7000 367.3
0.7500 368.0
0.8000 360.9
0.8500 361.7
0.9000 363.6
0.9500 361.8
1.0000 360.3

Posted By: 340_Dart

Re: Tore into the engine tonight....UPDATE - 02/24/12 10:57 PM

Can't wait to see the flow numbers "after"

Tore into the engine tonight....**UPDATE 2**