Posted By: Anonymous
Afco or Howe low friction ball joints? - 01/13/12 04:41 AM
I was perusing the Speedway Motors roundy pounder catalog and noticed all kinds of ball joints and some that are even adjustable.
Do guys use these on drag cars to get better weight transfer?
I'd think it would loosen up the suspension since Afco claims it only takes 2 lbs. of force to move their low friction units whereas it takes 50 lbs. to move some of the stock ones.
Posted By: MR_P_BODY
Re: Afco or Howe low friction ball joints? - 01/13/12 05:02 AM
Wow... I can move a ball joint with my fingers and
thats just standard stuff... most of the friction is
in the arms pivot point... I wouldnt waste the money... JMO
EDIT
they are probably talking torsional twisting it...
no big deal to us drag racers
Posted By: EricatAFCO
Re: Afco or Howe low friction ball joints? - 01/13/12 04:49 PM
Good morning guys,
I wanted to share some findings on ball joints relative to this topic. I think we would all agree that if we reduce as much friction as possible, the suspenion will perform more effectively. Better to have your shocks controlling how much pitch rotation you get (adjustable, predictable, consistant) than your ball joints, bushings etc which you cannot adjust or control as bind will not be a constant in this example. If your can can be inconsistant, bind somewhere could be the enemy.
So, if we look at the ball joint, it is a ball in socket design with a mechanism to keep the ball engaged in the socket. Commonly a spring or in some cases, a piece of rubber. (Springs weaken and rubber pieces will fail as well). The low friction ball joints I am most familiar with start with a precision machined ball and socket for perfect fit. Then, a low friction coating is added for wear control and to promote a smoothe operation. Finally, the mechanism that keeps the ball properly located in the socket is such that wear is not an issue. The ball will be properly engaged in the socket at all times. I'll bet others are in that similar design family too.
The amount of force necessary to move a ball joint in this example will need to be viewed when in use, on the car with live loads being applied. The forces being applied will tend to want to promote bind as the ball and socket will not be properly aligned. Bind or friction will be created. (ex: dis-located shoulder) If you consider traction as a relationship between how quickly torque hits the rear tire verses how quickly and with how much downward force we can produce to the contact patch of the tire, we would probably agree that we want that front end as "loose" under load of car as possible. Stick the tire with just enough load to control the forces trying to "shear" the tire loose.
Also, this can be another case of getting what you pay for. As a ball joint wears, it feels smoother and will be moved more freely at rest. However, do to the design, the "loaded characteristics" will be very much different and limiting. (Dis-located shoulder example) We don't want parts popping out of place, on our bodies or our cars.
How our cars perform can be considered a sum of all parts in play and how they work relative to each other. Hope this helps!
Have a good day and weekend
Eric
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Afco or Howe low friction ball joints? - 01/14/12 02:21 AM
Wow, a professional answer!
Thanks!
Do you guys make low friction bushing for the Mopar upper control arms?
Posted By: autoxcuda
Re: Afco or Howe low friction ball joints? - 01/14/12 11:20 AM
From my circle track experiance, once you get all of your joints in smooth bind free connections you will get a car that is much more
repeatable on digital scale pads.
So you disconnect your shocks, bounce the car to settle it (front tires on plates), and then check scale readings. Then you recheck or make an adjustment you get the same (very close) numbers or the numbers you should after the appropiate adjustments. If someone overtightens a rear shackle bushings or poly UCA bushing you can get bind easy and chase a race car on scales all night long!
Posted By: justinp61
Re: Afco or Howe low friction ball joints? - 01/14/12 02:27 PM
If I keep my car I will upgrade the upper control arms and they will have low friction ball joints in them. The motion is smooth through the entire range unlike the stock replacements I have now.
Posted By: EricatAFCO
Re: Afco or Howe low friction ball joints? - 01/17/12 02:07 PM
It is very possible that an upper low friction ball joint is available. If we can determine the OE part number, preferably from Moog, we can cross reference the part number. Many of the cars produced by Chrysler used a common ball joint under the Moog part number K772. Please verify your model's upper ball joint part number.
**Upper Ball Joint: Moog K772 = AFCO 20034LF
**Lower Ball Joint: Moog K727 = AFCO 20036LF
Use the reference above as a quick guide. If you have any additional questions, just ask.
Eric
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Afco or Howe low friction ball joints? - 01/18/12 02:08 AM
Yes, I saw those in the speedway motors catalog!
K772 is used on quite a few aftermarket as well as our original Mopar upper control arms.
My question is, do you make BUSHINGS for the Mopar upper and lower control arms that are low friction?
I see them for the Mustang II and Chevelle type control arms.
Posted By: EricatAFCO
Re: Afco or Howe low friction ball joints? - 01/18/12 02:52 PM
Unfortunately, we don't have bushings for the Chrysler applications.
Eric
