Moparts

Just how bad is..... ***updated***

Posted By: Jeepmon

Just how bad is..... ***updated*** - 12/10/11 06:52 AM

.009 to .010 piston to wall clearance??

Is it bad enough to scrap the pistons and buy new ones? or will this just be an inconvenience, noisy build that wont last too long?

I just found out my piston to wall clearance is not very good on my 451 cid, 4.375 bore B1 build, which means if I need new pistons, it will push me over my budget as these are not some off the shelf pistons..

What do you think?
Posted By: goldmember

Re: Just how bad is..... - 12/10/11 06:56 AM

Sounds great! I assume this is not a 100,000 mile street build?
Posted By: Jeepmon

Re: Just how bad is..... - 12/10/11 06:57 AM

Yep.. race only!!
Posted By: Chris'sBarracuda

Re: Just how bad is..... - 12/10/11 07:15 AM

Do you have the piston job number.?


Chris..
Posted By: Thumperdart

Re: Just how bad is..... - 12/10/11 07:19 AM

Mine are only around .007 but Jason Pettis likes to run em a bit looser than manufacture recommendations but .010 on modern piston sounds a bit loose but what do I know............
Posted By: Jeepmon

Re: Just how bad is..... - 12/10/11 07:20 AM

Quote:

Do you have the piston job number.?


Chris..




The pistons are at the machine shop now, so a call on Monday might answer your question.. But I dont recall seeing a part number or job number on there.. The only number I saw was a forging number..
Posted By: Jeepmon

Re: Just how bad is..... - 12/10/11 07:23 AM

Quote:

Mine are only around .007 but Jason Pettis likes to run em a bit looser than manufacture recommendations but .010 on modern piston sounds a bit loose but what do I know............




There has been several that have recommended coating the pistons with a coating that will take up approx .002.. I do know thats an option..

(and from what I hear.. Pettis is the man!!)
Posted By: Thumperdart

Re: Just how bad is..... - 12/10/11 07:24 AM

That`s definately an option.............
Posted By: Chris'sBarracuda

Re: Just how bad is..... - 12/10/11 07:30 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Do you have the piston job number.?


Chris..




The pistons are at the machine shop now, so a call on Monday might answer your question.. But I dont recall seeing a part number or job number on there.. The only number I saw was a forging number..





If you know the manufacturer, call them and ask.

When I was assembling mine I thought there was too much clearance, (.010)..
But when I talked to Tom Prock @ Venolia he said that with my piston that .0085-.011 was the tolerance..

So there you have it..

:EDIT: This is for a 4.505 bore B1 Venolia 1.29 CD .043 x.043 x 3/16


Chris..
Posted By: Thumperdart

Re: Just how bad is..... - 12/10/11 07:37 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Do you have the piston job number.?


Chris..




The pistons are at the machine shop now, so a call on Monday might answer your question.. But I dont recall seeing a part number or job number on there.. The only number I saw was a forging number..





If you know the manufacturer, call them and ask.

When I was assembling mine I thought there was too much clearance, (.010)..
But when I talked to Tom Prock @ Venolia he said that with my piston that .0085-.011 was the tolerance..

So there you have it..


Just learned something new......AGAIN.
Posted By: Jeepmon

Re: Just how bad is..... - 12/10/11 08:17 PM

Quote:


If you know the manufacturer, call them and ask.

When I was assembling mine I thought there was too much clearance, (.010)..
But when I talked to Tom Prock @ Venolia he said that with my piston that .0085-.011 was the tolerance..

So there you have it..

:EDIT: This is for a 4.505 bore B1 Venolia 1.29 CD .043 x.043 x 3/16


Chris..




Thats interesting Chris.. I've done quite a bit of reading last night and it seems that the majority of the engine builders strive for no more than .007... This is why I posted my question..

BTW.. These are JE Pistons and I will be calling the machine shop on Monday to see if the pistons are engraved..
Posted By: HardcoreB

Re: Just how bad is..... - 12/10/11 09:02 PM

I agree... call the maker with the job# for piston ID. The builder may be measuring the skirts in the wrong place and/or that may be the design intent of the maker. Or you may want to coat the skirts.
Posted By: rickraw

Re: Just how bad is..... - 12/10/11 09:09 PM

i had my diamond skirts coated, don't know the thickness. $120.00 to do the skirts. as mentioned, that maybe a good option for u. good luck, seeya.
Posted By: WheelsUp73

Re: Just how bad is..... - 12/11/11 06:38 PM

Yes you need new pistons. That is way too much clearence. The pistons will rock too much causing the rings not to ride square in the bore and the ring seal will be horrible. We run .004 in my small block.
Steve
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: Just how bad is..... - 12/11/11 07:23 PM

Don, the piston clearances are determined by several things, the piston alloy being the main one Get the job number off of the pistons and call them(JE) to get thier recommendations If they need coating try calling Embee CO., 714-546-6907, to see if they will hard anadyse(SP?) your pistons. I had them do a set several years back to restore the skirts on a set of Ross pistons that where in a motor that the lifters tops failed and the debris hurt the clinder walls and piston skirts. That was a long time ago and the owner has squeezed(sprayed NOS) that motor a lot since then and beat the snout out of it on the street for close to 20,000 miles on pump gas and accoding to him the pistons look like new the last time he looked at them EDITED: I forgot to mention that Embee is a goverment certified aircraft parts maker and repair center, good stuff Make sure you tell them, if you decide to use them,that you want the hard anadising coating, just like the top fuelers use
Posted By: AAR-B4

Re: Just how bad is..... - 12/11/11 08:53 PM

Are the pistons or the bores out of spec?
Don't know what you have invested in the block but it may be more cost effective to find another.
Posted By: 383man

Re: Just how bad is..... - 12/12/11 12:39 AM

Definetly find out what the piston manufactor specs are. Some pistons call for much more then others depending on the piston material and make but .010 is a good bit. Ron
Posted By: Bob_Coomer

Re: Just how bad is..... - 12/12/11 01:20 AM

i didnt see anyone ask were it loose at.. is it taper? meaning the top of the cylinder has more wear/taper than the bottom..
Like engines with lots of miles?
If its consistent, you could use little bigger bore ring, say .005 or so.. if it's taper it wont matter much... It will run sure... It might slobber and have excess blow by...
Posted By: Al_Alguire

Re: Just how bad is..... - 12/12/11 06:11 PM

I think you know my answer
Posted By: Jeepmon

Re: Just how bad is..... - 12/14/11 12:21 AM

Spoke with JE Pistons.. the pistons I have are old as they have no engraving on them.. and also, JE would like to see a max clearance of .0045..

So it looks like I will be shopping for new pistons..

Thanks to everyone for their assistance
Posted By: GTXX

Re: Just how bad is..... - 12/14/11 02:48 AM

Don't drink the Kool-Aide! If .007 is acceptable, .010 will be fine with that big of a bore and forged pistons. That difference in clearance isn't going to cause the rings to not seal properly, sure it may not be the absolute best possible but you'll never know the difference if you stop worrying about it. Not having any taper in the bore and setting the end gap on the rings where it needs to be will be the important things, probably .018-.019".
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: Just how bad is..... - 12/14/11 03:10 AM

Quote:

Spoke with JE Pistons.. the pistons I have are old as they have no engraving on them.. and also, JE would like to see a max clearance of .0045..

So it looks like I will be shopping for new pistons..

Thanks to everyone for their assistance


Don, that is a bunch of baloney sauce JE, Arias,Forged True and most of the other Hi Po piston makers made there original forged race pistons in the loose alloy aluminum, hence they wanted .007+ piston to wall clearances. It was in the last ten to twenty years that the pistons companys started offering the tight alloy forged aluminum pistons for custom engine builders for street use, .0040+ clearances. It sounds like the person you contacted at JE wanted to make a sell, they do work on commision Go to JE web site and see if they have in thier tech section the way to tell which alloy your pistons are I think Ross tells you to look at the bottom edge of the oil ring groove, if it is cut with a 45 degree angle it is one alloy, if it isn't cut it is the other alloy JE was sold several years ago by the Calvert brothers, not John Calvert of Cal Tracs, I think The Calvert Bros. started CP Pisons after the non compete clause expired with the purchasers of JE Pistons. I think they sold CP pistons recently also or maybe they bought Carillo rods and merged the two comanys together There has to be a way to tell Let us know what you do and find out
Posted By: Jeepmon

Re: Just how bad is..... - 12/14/11 04:04 AM

The only identification on the pistons is the forging number.. (or so I'm told) That number is "JE 314F" and is located on the bottom side of the piston..

Being that there is no engraving on the piston, this is suggesting the pistons are pre-2004 as that is when JE started the engraving program.. So not only are we dealing with a piston that fits a little loose in the bore, but its also getting on 7 or 8 years in age..

I dont know if the age means anything towards reliability, but I would hate to toast a motor because I got cheap..
Posted By: pittsburghracer

Re: Just how bad is..... - 12/14/11 04:14 AM

Tried to do a little research for you but all I found is were the numbers should be. Sorry.
http://www.jepistons.com/TechCorner/HowToIdentify.aspx
Posted By: Jeepmon

Re: Just how bad is..... - 12/14/11 04:21 AM

Quote:

Tried to do a little research for you but all I found is were the numbers should be. Sorry.
http://www.jepistons.com/TechCorner/HowToIdentify.aspx




I found this page when I was searching earlier.. But thanks very much for taking the time and trouble to help...
Posted By: pittsburghracer

Re: Just how bad is..... - 12/14/11 05:38 AM

I will probably get flamed by the you shouldn't do that Mopar crew, but year ago I had a good year going and developed a blow-by issue on an engine that should have been gone through over the past Winter. The funds were not there and I had some choices to make. Try to make another season or sit out the year. I chose to race and like I said had a good season going. When she started puffing smoke I quickly pulled the engine, ripped her down, and took some measurements. .011 clearance so I made some calls to some old time machinists and do you know what they recommended? A fresh hone job and buy some broken sets ( rings set back with missing or broken rings ) and rebuild it with cast rings. At that time all broken sets were set to California so I ordered 3 incomplete sets ( at a great price ) and I put it together. Cast rings only no moly ring. You won't believe how well the engine ran. After the season it became a backup engine that was put to use for years to come. Rant on if you want to but trust me it worked.
Posted By: Thumperdart

Re: Just how bad is..... - 12/14/11 06:11 AM

Too cool .............My pistons are around .007 this time around and I hear no loose pistons in my motor. Revs nicely and thats w/moly top napier 2nd(both back cut)and med oil rings...........You may coat em for peace of mind although that only lasts so long anyhow.
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