Moparts
833/od hp limit??
Posted By: 76dodgeboy
833/od hp limit?? - 10/08/13 07:31 AM
So I have an 80 Shortbox with a /6 833/od. I plan to swap the slant for a 383 est at 510hp. Was planning on a 727 bit just had the idea of leaving it a manual. How much hp can the 833/od handle also abuse. What can I do to make the trans handle the 383
thanks.
Posted By: 340SHORTY
Re: 833/od hp limit?? - 10/08/13 09:01 AM
The biggest downfall is the alum case and that the countershaft isnt bushed.. I have ripped some darn hard 1 2 and 2 3 shifts in my shorty. The tires have spun before any damage has happened.. I definately wouldnt drag race it.. Your biggest problem is gonna be finding a bell with the 5.125 dia hole and the 833/od833 bolt pattern..
Ma Mopar did have a truck bell that had the 833/od833 NP435/445 bolt pattern but they are rare and expensive..
Posted By: 85_Ram_4speed
Re: 833/od hp limit?? - 10/08/13 11:17 AM
There is no definitive answer, as it depends on the setup. Remember 57Plymouth that used to post? He had a stout 340 in a LRE clone that broke his. I am going to start testing the limits myself though. I have a big block and the general concensous is it probably puts out 400-425 HP and 450-480 Tq. The torque input (what most trans nowadays are rated by) and what you make slip (tires or clutch) are going to be the key to making it live---along with how you shift it, which I say powershifting will eventually blow it apart (shocking any drivetrain parts will eventually take thier toll).
Right now my street tires are definatly my limiting factor. I can spin easily through first and second---even on the track. But what what will happen when I put something more sticky on??....
FYI, you can turn the big 5.125 bearing retainer down to the second bigger 4.807 size so it fits a standard big block bellhousing--or just swap retainers as long as your O/D trans has the 308 front bearing which has the bigger bolt pattern.
Posted By: Mike P
Re: 833/od hp limit?? - 10/08/13 11:48 AM
"....The biggest downfall is the alum case and that the countershaft isnt bushed...."
I agree and have seen more than one cracked case to prove it (they do make good dummy/mockup units when you gut them however LOL).
I'm not sure what years, but Chrysler did make some of the overdrive 833s with an iron case. I believe they were used exclusively in trucks. I'm using an iron case one in my 57 Plymouth behind a 1st Gen Hemi. I'm not sure, but I believe Brian (57Plymouth) was running an aluminum one in his LRE.
Posted By: 76dodgeboy
Re: 833/od hp limit?? - 10/08/13 12:24 PM
They have a blowproof bellowing available. That's what got me thinking about it. It will see track time. I like the idea of jamming the gears.
Posted By: hp383
Re: 833/od hp limit?? - 10/08/13 09:20 PM
Just for giggles. What would it take to install a Hemi 4 speed into the truck? (18 spline IIRC)
I may be able to line Harry up with a guy selling one.
Posted By: 76dodgeboy
Re: 833/od hp limit?? - 10/08/13 10:01 PM
Can I afford it
Posted By: 85_Ram_4speed
Re: 833/od hp limit?? - 10/08/13 10:08 PM
Quote:
Just for giggles. What would it take to install a Hemi 4 speed into the truck? (18 spline IIRC)
I may be able to line Harry up with a guy selling one.
Nothing more really than doing a regular 4-speed swap. They only thing going to a BB with a 833 4speed is posibbly some linkage issues, specifficaly with a blowproof, more than likely you'll be fabbing a mount for the z-bar ball on the bellhousing. But in general, a 4-speed swap is pretty straight foward in these trucks and does not require the big floor hump that is normally associated with 4-speed trucks.
I say if all else fails, have a back up trans or a regular 833 to stick in it. I hate blowing stuff up, but I agree, it is fun to bang gears, you just have to be prepared for the consequences. If I had my choice and a couple grand laying around, I'd have Passon build me a 4-speed with thier new aluminum case and thier take on the overdrive gear set (better ratio spread than stock).
Posted By: 76dodgeboy
Re: 833/od hp limit?? - 10/08/13 10:21 PM
What Flywheel would I need? I already javelin an aftermarket bellowing and a flywheel I got to put behind a 440 with an NP435.
Would it be better to track down a car bellhousing? Price would most likely be the same or a bit less?
Posted By: hp383
Re: 833/od hp limit?? - 10/08/13 10:25 PM
Quote:
Can I afford it
I think you might. He has reasonable pricing on it I think.
He didn't want to retire off it last I knew, and hes moving in a few months, and will be selling stuff.
Posted By: 76dodgeboy
Re: 833/od hp limit?? - 10/09/13 12:37 AM
Finally going to Tennessee or is his shop too small now
Posted By: 85_Ram_4speed
Re: 833/od hp limit?? - 10/09/13 01:12 AM
So I assume the bellhousing you have then is a steel safety style one and only set up for the 435? If that is the case, I have to assume that you can land the top bolts of an 833 on the belhousing and drill those holes out and weld a nut on the backside. The lowers will need tabs more than likely welded to the bell to capture those bolt holes.
I made up a 1/4" plate years ago for when I was using a aluminum 435 factory bell to an 833 trans. On that bell as I said above is what I experienced in bolt hole alignment. I made it work, it seemed to be fine. I had the 1/4" plate bored for the 5.125" front retainer size, you could do it to any size retainer you see fit really. The whole trick with any of this is dial indicating the register for the trans to the back of the crank to get them as close as possible to line up.
On your flywheel that you already have for the 440, as long as its an internal balance and you balance the 383 for internal balance it will work. If you have a external balance 440 flywheel already, you will have to have it rebalanced per your rotating assembly---which most likely means having weld added on to your flywheel or a small slug of mallory metal added to the appropriate spot.
If your flywheel is for an 11 or 12 inch clutch, make sure the bellhousing will fit around it when bolted to the engine and that the starter also lines up. Some bellhousings will only accept the smaller 10.5" clutch flywheel and starter location.
Posted By: 76dodgeboy
Re: 833/od hp limit?? - 10/09/13 01:22 AM
The obese I see for sale are for several applications not just one. I purchased mine used from an RCC member and have yet to pull it from the box. If its Only for the NP435 than I will locate what's needed.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/lak-15335/overview/make/dodge
Posted By: 76dodgeboy
Re: 833/od hp limit?? - 10/09/13 01:29 AM
I was told 383-440 are balanced the same. Is a 69 440 and 65 383 Both Forged. I got the flywheel and bellhousing together. Im still slowly gathering parts for that build.
Posted By: hp383
Re: 833/od hp limit?? - 10/09/13 03:43 AM
Quote:
Finally going to Tennessee or is his shop too small now
Moving to Mooresville, North Carolina.
Wants a bigger shop as hes outgrown the existing with sales coming in.
Also a larger workforce with all the NASCAR teams in the area.
Posted By: 85_Ram_4speed
Re: 833/od hp limit?? - 10/09/13 11:21 AM
Quote:
I was told 383-440 are balanced the same. Is a 69 440 and 65 383 Both Forged. I got the flywheel and bellhousing together. Im still slowly gathering parts for that build.
Well, there was two cast crank 440 engines---one with the "sixpack" rods and a normal stock rod crank, as well as a forged crank. But if you got the flywheel from someone else, it really doesn't matter what your putting it on, just in fact what it came off of. So if it cam off a internal balanced 440, then you should be all set for your 383. The balancer that was on the 440 would be the dead givaway of what that motor was----but be forwarned, it is easy to make an external balance motor internally balaned too, via adding slugs of mallory metal to the crank to get it rebalanced.
And then we have the fact that everything now is 30+ years old and people sometimes do dumb things when swapping parts. My truck was a perfect example of that, it had a 360 (which is externally balanced)in it when I bought it, but a non 360 flexplate/weighted converter. It had a heck of a vibration to it until I discovered what the previous owner did. So sometimes people just assume if it bolts together then it must be ok.
Posted By: savoy64
Re: 833/od hp limit?? - 10/09/13 03:10 PM
i have a friend that rebuilt his 833 od with the passon hemi performance gear set--it is handling 1000 hp at the strip---the build kit ran about $1800....bob
Posted By: 76dodgeboy
Re: 833/od hp limit?? - 10/09/13 06:02 PM
Hah Not paying $1800 for a kit. Id be better off with a 5/6spd for that kind of money.
Posted By: savoy64
Re: 833/od hp limit?? - 10/09/13 08:07 PM
if you limit the hot runs to 1st,2nd gear you should be ok---the weakness in the OD is that 3rd,4th gear are switched on the main shaft---if you arent stressing them out you should be able to have some fun...
Posted By: hp383
Re: 833/od hp limit?? - 10/10/13 01:26 AM
Quote:
if you limit the hot runs to 1st,2nd gear you should be ok---the weakness in the OD is that 3rd,4th gear are switched on the main shaft---if you arent stressing them out you should be able to have some fun...
The track here is a 1/8 mile, so probably wont see third gear on the track I wouldn't think.
Posted By: 340SHORTY
Re: 833/od hp limit?? - 10/10/13 01:53 AM
1/8th mile ... have you condidered a jr dragster??
Posted By: hp383
Re: 833/od hp limit?? - 10/10/13 02:01 AM
Quote:
1/8th mile ... have you considered a jr dragster??
We didn't choose the track, they closed the 1/4 mile track, and opened this one.
Posted By: 76dodgeboy
Re: 833/od hp limit?? - 10/10/13 02:45 AM
Took what ten years before another this track came along if not longer.
Posted By: Hooligan
Re: 833/od hp limit?? - 10/11/13 02:30 PM
Well, I don't have an answer for you, but way back in the years before the tremec tranny conversions were available...I had a guy put the guts from an O/D 833 into a cast iron 833 case with the smaller bearing retainer. He said that he accomplished it, and the whole price cost me $400. Which is why I let him do it. The tranny is still on my self waiting for its installation. (A sad story)
So maybe the guy faked me out and got away the my money...Or maybe it is possible to build a cast iron cased O/D 833.
It is something you can research...Or maybe some will chime in on the subject.
Good luck to ya!
BTW...mine will be put behind a mildly blown street-friendly 426 Hemi with a McLeod RST dual disc clutch.
Posted By: 76dodgeboy
Re: 833/od hp limit?? - 10/11/13 03:00 PM
They had cast Iron 833/od units
Posted By: Robbins
Re: 833/od hp limit?? - 10/11/13 06:37 PM
Quote:
They had cast Iron 833/od units
Yep, I have one.
Posted By: Hooligan
Re: 833/od hp limit?? - 10/11/13 06:41 PM
Yes, I am aware that cast iron O/D 833's exist, but I don't know how hard or easy they are to find, and at what price?
I am simply wondering if it is possible to covert an aluminum O/D unit by using a standard 833 iron case...just as mine is touted to be by the guy who made the one on my shelf. I don't know what the guy did to mine as I have not looked inside to verify it. All I'm saying is that if such a conversion is possible, it might be a fun, feasible, and inexpensive alternative for people to explore. Especially if they already have some trannys laying around.
If I ever try it out someday and it pukes its parts, I won't be out a lot of cash. At which point I will drop the big bucks on a nice unit. Hopefully by then the McLeod M-800 or Passon trannys will finally hit the market or even some other choices.
Posted By: 76dodgeboy
Re: 833/od hp limit?? - 10/11/13 10:01 PM
Main reason I asked was I have it so why not use it. Id just assume buy a regular 4spd than hassle with locating a case and swapping guts. I dont care that it has od I just want a manual trans
Posted By: rickstershemi
Re: 833/od hp limit?? - 10/11/13 10:55 PM
Quote:
Yes, I am aware that cast iron O/D 833's exist, but I don't know how hard or easy they are to find, and at what price?
I am simply wondering if it is possible to covert an aluminum O/D unit by using a standard 833 iron case...just as mine is touted to be by the guy who made the one on my shelf. I don't know what the guy did to mine as I have not looked inside to verify it. All I'm saying is that if such a conversion is possible, it might be a fun, feasible, and inexpensive alternative for people to explore. Especially if they already have some trannys laying around.
If I ever try it out someday and it pukes its parts, I won't be out a lot of cash. At which point I will drop the big bucks on a nice unit. Hopefully by then the McLeod M-800 or Passon trannys will finally hit the market or even some other choices.
It would very easy to verify without opening the case.....just have to put it in high gear and ck the rotation if it's 1-1 you most likely got screwed....if it's over 1-1 or whatever the od ratio is....you win 
Rickster
Posted By: Hooligan
Re: 833/od hp limit?? - 10/11/13 11:10 PM
I'm sorry about the confusion. I only shared that information incase someone else read it, and could verify the feasibility and durability of the parts swap for the benefit of all us Moparts members. I personally wanted to try the swap many years ago because I knew the aluminum case unit was weak, and there not a lot of options for overdrives back then without making a lot of modifications, and spending a ton of money. Plus, I thought it would be a slick trick! At the time I had a 360 in the car, but ended up with the 426 Hemi. I'm gunna toss it behind the Hemi some day soon just for grins & giggles! Anyway, I hope you find the answer that you seek, and I wish you well with your Mopar!
Posted By: Hooligan
Re: 833/od hp limit?? - 10/12/13 12:12 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Yes, I am aware that cast iron O/D 833's exist, but I don't know how hard or easy they are to find, and at what price?
I am simply wondering if it is possible to covert an aluminum O/D unit by using a standard 833 iron case...just as mine is touted to be by the guy who made the one on my shelf. I don't know what the guy did to mine as I have not looked inside to verify it. All I'm saying is that if such a conversion is possible, it might be a fun, feasible, and inexpensive alternative for people to explore. Especially if they already have some trannys laying around.
If I ever try it out someday and it pukes its parts, I won't be out a lot of cash. At which point I will drop the big bucks on a nice unit. Hopefully by then the McLeod M-800 or Passon trannys will finally hit the market or even some other choices.
It would very easy to verify without opening the case.....just have to put it in high gear and ck the rotation if it's 1-1 you most likely got screwed....if it's over 1-1 or whatever the od ratio is....you win
Hey Rickster! You are brilliant! ...however, I am taking a wild guess here. My approach will be this... If it turns out to be 1 to 1, I'll pretend that I didn't get screwed by being ecstatic that I now have a large expensive door stop! Thanks!
Rickster
Posted By: 76dodgeboy
Re: 833/od hp limit?? - 10/12/13 02:45 AM
No I appreciate the input. just not worth tome and money when a regular 4spd can be had with less work. Might end up with a 18 spine hopefully a liquidation sale price.
Posted By: poorboy
Re: 833/od hp limit?? - 10/12/13 03:04 AM
I put an aluminum case OD through a lot of abuse back in the day. They are not the wimps some make you think they are. Like most everything, if you beat the tar out of it, expect it to break at some point. The issue is, if you bought it used, you really don't know how its been treated. If it was the one I had, it might not last much longer.
but if it was like the one I had at the start, you will be good for a while.
Gene
Posted By: Robbins
Re: 833/od hp limit?? - 10/12/13 04:17 AM
Quote:
I put an aluminum case OD through a lot of abuse back in the day. They are not the wimps some make you think they are. Like most everything, if you beat the tar out of it, expect it to break at some point. The issue is, if you bought it used, you really don't know how its been treated. If it was the one I had, it might not last much longer. but if it was like the one I had at the start, you will be good for a while. Gene
My aluminum one lasted me over ten years that I drove my swb as a dd and it was over 20 years old when I started driving it. I've towed with it & hot rodded it with automatic trans fluid in it. Which it had the automatic fluid in it when I got it.
Posted By: 76dodgeboy
Re: 833/od hp limit?? - 10/12/13 07:21 AM
And both of you had 500hp Bigblocks and slicks correct?
Posted By: Robbins
Re: 833/od hp limit?? - 10/13/13 06:05 PM
Quote:
And both of you had 500hp Bigblocks and slicks correct?
Not a chance..............I forgot your original question.....I guess. I read something about being tougher than one would think....is why I posted that. So sorry....I'm not saying that they would survive behind a BB with 500 horse and slicks.
Posted By: 76dodgeboy
Re: 833/od hp limit?? - 10/13/13 06:19 PM
We all miss or forget something that's been posted. Not a big deal.
Posted By: poorboy
Re: 833/od hp limit?? - 10/15/13 01:48 AM
Quote:
And both of you had 500hp Bigblocks and slicks correct?
With an actual 500 HP and sticky slicks, and if the truck actually gets traction, the 18 spline 833 will be at its limits. Without traction? The OD will do OK right up to the point you get hooked up.
With a little (or a lot of) effort, I could and did break nearly everything. The point was, the aluminum case OD takes nearly as much abuse as the standard issue iron 833, right up until you pound the case away at the shaft bushings.
The right small block with traction will cause more damage then a big block without traction. Given traction, the teeth on the gears are going to break whenever they feel the need to break. Gene