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Approx. hours for a partial rotieserre resto...

Posted By: Silver70

Approx. hours for a partial rotieserre resto... - 02/24/11 12:23 AM

I know it can be a very wide range... but I'll break it down for this one.

Diassemble, including interior, drivetrain, suspension, glass, etc... basically strip to a bare shell. Strip, remove undercoating, blast, some minor rust repair(minor patching, filling pin holes), better repair some previous crash work better... epoxy, prime, block and so on including the underside to prep and paint, inside panels like fender valances... repaint rear suspension, new brake/fuel lines, reassemble, and so on.

This doesn't include recovering seat, any refurbuishing to the front suspension, dash, column, and so on. Basically a rotiserre paint job on a fairly straight rust free car.

Just curious to see how many hours people have had in doing something similar or how many hours they think it should take.
Posted By: cloneguy

Re: Approx. hours for a partial rotieserre resto... - 02/24/11 12:31 AM

500 hours.
Posted By: 70_FJ6_RR

Re: Approx. hours for a partial rotieserre resto... - 02/24/11 01:44 AM

Posted By: anlauto

Re: Approx. hours for a partial rotieserre resto... - 02/24/11 01:51 AM

I concur... that means agree
Posted By: Silver70

Re: Approx. hours for a partial rotieserre resto... - 02/24/11 02:10 AM

Thanks guys, that's a good bit higher than I expected. I should mention, not refinishing anything on the inside, not polishing trim, and alot of the small detail stuff. More just a rotisserre done car as far as paint/body. Interior, just pull and replace once painted. Engine, front suspension and such are being done by the owner. Not redoing the entire brake system, just new lines/cables. Not doing the underhood wiring, carpet and seats back in.

Does 350 hours sound realistic? I read a site from a member here that said a typical top side resto will take about 300 hours.
Posted By: formula_s

Re: Approx. hours for a partial rotieserre resto... - 02/24/11 02:17 AM

Quote:

Does 350 hours sound realistic? I read a site from a member here that said a typical top side resto will take about 300 hours.



Only if you let Maaco do it.
Posted By: sixpackbee

Re: Approx. hours for a partial rotieserre resto... - 02/24/11 02:29 AM

400-450. Maybe a hair more depending on your collision repairs you stated.
Posted By: anlauto

Re: Approx. hours for a partial rotieserre resto... - 02/24/11 03:26 AM

Typically shops have a minimum of 250-300 hrs just for prep and paint on the exterior body, you're talking about doing the complete underside as well.
You've done restoration work in the past so you should have an idea of how much time it will take to dismantle and strip the shell...

I personally think you're robbing yourself if you quote anything less then 500 hrs...
Posted By: Silver70

Re: Approx. hours for a partial rotieserre resto... - 02/24/11 03:40 AM

I've done a lot more collison work and the resto work was always stuff done for myself til the past few years. I never really kept track of hours on my own cars... seems like when you do that it feels like work.

The reason I asked is because I felt like I was getting to the point on the current car that I had too much time into it. I am quite suprised to see what you guys think it will take. I've follwed your thread Alan on the ta and the time you have in the assembly and that's what got me wondering. I really thought I could get this one done in 300 hours, but say it takes 75 or so for assembly and such, where it's at now I can;t see anyway I'll have 350 plus hours into it.
Posted By: anlauto

Re: Approx. hours for a partial rotieserre resto... - 02/24/11 03:46 AM

When I say 75 hrs for assembly, that's with having EVERYTHING ready to go...that doesn't count the engine and tranny being set-up on the K Frame, that doesn't count any of the sub assemblies being restored...
Posted By: Silver70

Re: Approx. hours for a partial rotieserre resto... - 02/24/11 03:53 AM

Well this car, very little needed to be done. It's pretty much just needs reassembled. Some stuff will need work or refinished, but not a lot.
Posted By: gtx6970

Re: Approx. hours for a partial rotieserre resto... - 02/24/11 12:54 PM

several variables can plany in here,

example,
A- if the underside is being done, how is it being cleaned? laying on your back with a scraper and wirewheels on a drill

or

B- up on it's side and cleaned with a blaster of some kind, such as media blasting or steam cleaning


A= cheaper initially but adds in more labor time

B= faster but more costs, possibily outsourced
Posted By: 68427vette

Re: Approx. hours for a partial rotieserre resto... - 02/24/11 01:41 PM

"cloneguy" just did a customers cuda i think....blue... he'd have a ballpark, alan s done a few..... also having an extra set of hands,, helps!! i get to unload a B5 today!!!

remember partial.. usually ends up being FULL restoration..

my B5 i just bought,, sounds like the car you are discribing. i'm going to keep a hour meter and expense box (sealed, and away from wife ) on this project..


the master painter for the high end shop told me he puts in 250+(400+) hrs for each paint job, his shop charges min, $15,000-30k, my cars will get done at $8500. 250hrs x $30hr= $7500(+$1000 for material)($8500)

it took me almost 2+ days with a helper to tear down "butterturd", but it was Ruff, and had no motor/trans in it. 30+hrs

blasting a whole body, 8-10 hours, plus fenders 1-3 more:= 13 hrs

250+
30
13 = 293 hours

add a few more = 293-300 hours
add body work welding 100+ hours

=400+ hours

100 for beer drinking...
500 hrs
Posted By: DennisH

Re: Approx. hours for a partial rotieserre resto... - 02/24/11 02:04 PM

I know nothing. My wallet does my talking. If I was estimated 500, I'd figure a thousand. I'm just saying.
Posted By: 68427vette

Re: Approx. hours for a partial rotieserre resto... - 02/24/11 02:06 PM

aahh, man, do you homework.. or start lighting $100 bills.

when i first saw the number 500hrs, i thought, no way. but it adds up. don't cut yourself short.

dennis, you must have way too much money(good for you) or see an estimate, and pray for the best, and hope not to get the, "well, when we......" phone call.... i'm just saying...
Posted By: sixpackbee

Re: Approx. hours for a partial rotieserre resto... - 02/24/11 02:28 PM

Quote:

100 for beer drinking...
500 hrs


Ah, but the beer drinking is at 1/2 the normal shop rate to save the customer some money. Be sure to check this on your next estimate.
Posted By: Silver70

Re: Approx. hours for a partial rotieserre resto... - 02/24/11 11:14 PM

First, let me say this is a car I'm doing for someone else. It was a pretty clean car and came in looking prety straight and very little rust. Of course after being stripped it had mud and more rust once it's was cleaned/blasted. I'm doing all the work in house and on a rotiserre.

One thing is normally I find factory undercoating pretty easy to remove. Some heat and a scraper and it comes off in chunks. This one had some aftermarket crap and was a real pain. I assume it was used to cover up some of the dents and such from when it was wrecked.

After tear down, then blasting, straightening, replacing a few sections and so on, I'd say the 250 or so number will probally be pretty close to the time I have into the body and putting it in paint.

I really thought originally I could keep it under 300 hours, but like I mentioned, you find more as you remove parts, paint, and undercoating. I've done body work for around 20 years and until the past 5 years, it was always my own stuff or smaller projects for others. So I was curious to see how my pace was compared to others. I go hourly, so I don't have to cut corners. And it's not like the owner had a problem with the time that's gone into it.

Thanks for the replies. I feel much better knowing that I'm making good progress on the time I have into the car. I think 350 hours should get me pretty close, but from all this I guess I could be closer to 400.

And the beer drinking is done on my own time
Posted By: Challenger 1

Re: Approx. hours for a partial rotieserre resto... - 02/24/11 11:24 PM

Quote:



One thing is normally I find factory undercoating pretty easy to remove. Some heat and a scraper and it comes off in chunks. This one had some aftermarket crap and was a real pain. I assume it was used to cover up some of the dents and such from when it was wrecked.





I should go in business removing under coating because I can do it fast on a rotissiere. Have never had something I couldn't steam pressure wash, off of a peice of metal.
Posted By: DPelletier

Re: Approx. hours for a partial rotieserre resto... - 02/24/11 11:25 PM

Quote:

Typically shops have a minimum of 250-300 hrs just for prep and paint on the exterior body, you're talking about doing the complete underside as well.
You've done restoration work in the past so you should have an idea of how much time it will take to dismantle and strip the shell...

I personally think you're robbing yourself if you quote anything less then 500 hrs...





....and if Alan says 500, you should probably plan on 600!
mine took 600 and I had taken the car apart and got it back as a rolling shell.

Dave
Posted By: Silver70

Re: Approx. hours for a partial rotieserre resto... - 02/24/11 11:29 PM

Quote:

Quote:



One thing is normally I find factory undercoating pretty easy to remove. Some heat and a scraper and it comes off in chunks. This one had some aftermarket crap and was a real pain. I assume it was used to cover up some of the dents and such from when it was wrecked.





I should go in business removing under coating because I can do it fast on a rotissiere. Have never had something I couldn't steam pressure wash off a peice of metal.



I think the pressure washer I would need to use to do that would cost more than it would be worth. Still the problem is, even if you could use that, it's not going to remove the rust. I had to blast the excess, scrape with a razor blade then reblast parts... believe me if there was an easier way I'd love to be able to do it.
Posted By: Silver70

Re: Approx. hours for a partial rotieserre resto... - 02/24/11 11:34 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Typically shops have a minimum of 250-300 hrs just for prep and paint on the exterior body, you're talking about doing the complete underside as well.
You've done restoration work in the past so you should have an idea of how much time it will take to dismantle and strip the shell...

I personally think you're robbing yourself if you quote anything less then 500 hrs...





....and if Alan says 500, you should probably plan on 600!
mine took 600 and I had taken the car apart and got it back as a rolling shell.

Dave



Unless a car needs a lot of panel replacement, I just don't see how I could possibly have double the hours into it. And I do all the body work by hand. No air file, don't use a da and so on... just a hand grinding for welds and a larger angle grinder and stripping discs for the paint.

Maybe I'm too critical of the time, I go in the house and grab a can of pepsi, that's 5 mins I'm not charging for
Posted By: Challenger 1

Re: Approx. hours for a partial rotieserre resto... - 02/24/11 11:34 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Typically shops have a minimum of 250-300 hrs just for prep and paint on the exterior body, you're talking about doing the complete underside as well.
You've done restoration work in the past so you should have an idea of how much time it will take to dismantle and strip the shell...

I personally think you're robbing yourself if you quote anything less then 500 hrs...





....and if Alan says 500, you should probably plan on 600!
mine took 600 and I had taken the car apart and got it back as a rolling shell.

Dave



My paint job on my 71 car took exactly 210 hours, that did not include the bottem, inside or motor compartment or stripping. Then I put the car togeather.

There was NO rust repair and very minor dolly and hammer work. Thanks to Marz528, he came by and showed me the finer ways to hammer metal.
Posted By: Challenger 1

Re: Approx. hours for a partial rotieserre resto... - 02/24/11 11:40 PM

Quote:


I think the pressure washer I would need to use to do that would cost more than it would be worth. Still the problem is, even if you could use that, it's not going to remove the rust. I had to blast the excess, scrape with a razor blade then reblast parts... believe me if there was an easier way I'd love to be able to do it.



Gawd I'd love to show you some time, Nope not gonna do a thing for rust repair except make it very easy to lightly media blast it clean after pressure washing and in some cases make it unneccasary to media blast at all before rust repair. Media blast once after all metal work is done.


Pressure washer cost $5800. bucks. It get's used almost everyday for everything one would need to clean. We're on our second one at work and I bought one for myself that I keep at home. The first one at work lasted 21 years.

Most valuable tool I own even though I have stuff that cost more, like machine tools.
Posted By: Silver70

Re: Approx. hours for a partial rotieserre resto... - 02/24/11 11:45 PM

210 hours for that just sounds like a lot to me. I'm kind of shocked by some of the numbers. I really thought I was a slow worker when it came to body work! I'm definetly not cutting corners, I'm blocking the cars more than once... all I can say is I definetly feel alot better about the progress I have made!
Posted By: anlauto

Re: Approx. hours for a partial rotieserre resto... - 02/24/11 11:52 PM

I don't do body work, never have, probably never will.

However I've had dozens of cars painted by several body shops over the years...

This is how it was explained to me...

It takes approximately 3 days to take one panel from bare metal to finished paint...
That includes prepping the metal, epoxy prime, filler work, sanding, priming, block sanding, final prime, guide coat, final blocking, paint, clear coat, denibbing, polishing.
That is approximatey 24 hrs labour.

NOW: Most cars have 8-10 panels...2 fenders, 2 doors, 2 quarters, hood, trunk, roof, valances.

Simple math: 8 X 24 = 192 / 10 X 24 = 240

In other words the average car takes 200hrs - 250hrs

Now, if you're thinking that I'm still high...notice I didn't count the engine compartment, door and trunk jambs, trunk floor, any special attention to sound deadener, etc...etc...AND I haven't even considered doing anything to the bottom of the car....

I stand by my estimate of 500 hrs
Posted By: Paul Jacobs

Re: Approx. hours for a partial rotieserre resto... - 02/25/11 12:19 AM

500-600 hours for sure. To what extent are you going?? A basic job may be 300 hours BUT:

Are you but welding everything & finishing off both sides? Are you putting lead back where it goes? Are you putting back all the proper sized spot welds? Are you mocking up everything that can change body gaps AFTER the car is assembled? Are you putting drip in the primer on the floor pan & bubbles in the floor pan where it pools?

There are certain things that should be bolted on that stress the cars body/doors etc. I have no surprises me when I'm done. This stuff takes time but you get a killer job when it's finished!

Plus some guys are naturally quick at some jobs, but bodywork is one thing that will come back to bite you if rushed!
Posted By: Silver70

Re: Approx. hours for a partial rotieserre resto... - 02/25/11 06:55 AM

I see where your coming from Alan. Although I think that number would be on the high side for parts that just need stripped, primed, blocked painted... but I guess as a general number that could be about right.

As far as the extend of making it original, this car is going to be more of an over restored car which the underside being shiny and not with the factory runs, over spray and so on. There were no panels replaced, just some small patched on the trunk and one quarter. As far as bolting on panels and linign everything up, yes to all that. I'm not sure I'm fast at it as much as it's been a pretty easy project compared to most. Now replacing panels and such, that I would say I can do quickly. I have as much experience doing collision work as anything and that part I always found easy.
Posted By: DPelletier

Re: Approx. hours for a partial rotieserre resto... - 02/25/11 05:44 PM

Well the crowd has spoken and the message seems to be fairly consistent. People like Paul and Alan do this stuff every day. Any big variances you are getting are due to two things only;

- differences in scope

- differences in quality

I'm sure you are doing a quality job so any differences would be scope related. In my case my bodyshop may have spent 10-15% longer as they aren't mopar specialists and I had to do most of the research and explain it to them......but at the end of the day, I'm confident that I got what I paid for and it was well over 500 hours. Of course every car is different as is every resto.

What I'd be interested in from some of the participants on this thread is how long do you think a total restoration goes? EVERY nut, bolt, bodywork, paint, mechanical systems, machine work, sub-assembly restoration: EVERYTHING.....1000 hours? 1500?

Dave
Posted By: cloneguy

Re: Approx. hours for a partial rotieserre resto... - 02/25/11 05:45 PM

Quote:

I don't do body work, never have, probably never will.

However I've had dozens of cars painted by several body shops over the years...

This is how it was explained to me...

It takes approximately 3 days to take one panel from bare metal to finished paint...
That includes prepping the metal, epoxy prime, filler work, sanding, priming, block sanding, final prime, guide coat, final blocking, paint, clear coat, denibbing, polishing.
That is approximatey 24 hrs labour.

NOW: Most cars have 8-10 panels...2 fenders, 2 doors, 2 quarters, hood, trunk, roof, valances.

Simple math: 8 X 24 = 192 / 10 X 24 = 240

In other words the average car takes 200hrs - 250hrs

Now, if you're thinking that I'm still high...notice I didn't count the engine compartment, door and trunk jambs, trunk floor, any special attention to sound deadener, etc...etc...AND I haven't even considered doing anything to the bottom of the car....

I stand by my estimate of 500 hrs



They just did it in 6 hours on TV a few nights ago. That must be the new benchmark. (Although that was the losing team.)
Posted By: sixpackbee

Re: Approx. hours for a partial rotieserre resto... - 02/25/11 08:38 PM

Quote:

What I'd be interested in from some of the participants on this thread is how long do you think a total restoration goes? EVERY nut, bolt, bodywork, paint, mechanical systems, machine work, sub-assembly restoration: EVERYTHING.....1000 hours? 1500?


To me the bodywork/paint is fairly straight forward. The only caveat is the condition of the vehicle. The other stuff is way more subjective. Bolts for instance. If you by the correct bolts new from your favorite supply house and just replace upon assembly that saves time. If you are anal, as I am, and want every fastener that came off the car put back on it then the time really piles up. You have to inspect the old ones. Decide what is savable then clean them and send them out for plating. I prefer the latter even though I usually loose my ass on jobs like that. It is not just a correctness thing but a carma thing for me for a car to have as many born with parts put back on. The bolt example is just one of a bunch of the smaller things that really pile the hours/cash up in a hurry. Instruments, do you do them yourself and spend the hours or contract them out and save time but spend money. I would loosely say, if you go the anal route, and no sub contracting and all out of my or I should say one shop 2000 hours would not be out of the question. I know some White Post type guys that tell me a Duesenberg or high end MB type vehicle can get up to 5000+ hours.
Posted By: DPelletier

Re: Approx. hours for a partial rotieserre resto... - 02/25/11 09:30 PM

Quote:

The other stuff is way more subjective. Bolts for instance. If you by the correct bolts new from your favorite supply house and just replace upon assembly that saves time.



Good point; sorta where I was going with the whole "scope" comment I made earlier. I know I'll have well over 1000 hours of time between my bodyshop, myself and a few friends that have helped me. What I wasn't sure of is how much time the machine shop spent, the sub assy's that Jules did for me, the instruments that were sent out, etc. etc.

I've spend untold amounts of time researching and trying to figure stuff out; that's where the pros have a HUGE advantage.


Dave
Posted By: BEINGmeISaCRIME

Re: Approx. hours for a partial rotieserre resto... - 02/26/11 12:34 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Does 350 hours sound realistic? I read a site from a member here that said a typical top side resto will take about 300 hours.



Only if you let Maaco do it.



I lol'd at this.

A rotisserie will make that undercoating much easier. I had to do it from laying under the car and scraping.

Seems like heating the metal up from the backside with some form of heat and then scrape it off with a puddy knife/gasket scrapter/ect will make it easier. Whatever is left can be easily blasted off. Just my
Posted By: RestoRick

Re: Approx. hours for a partial rotieserre resto... - 02/26/11 12:48 AM

One more factor not mentioned, when speaking of a turnkey type resto, is what model it is and how many options it has.
There's a world of difference in hours between something like a nice complete '65 Satellite non-air, manual everything strippo vs. a '71 Cuda convertible with a/c, PS, PB, power windows, 6way seat, etc, etc... Lots of extra parts to spruce up and get functioning correctly.
Also, extra or more complicated trim & brightwork adds more time.

Rick
Posted By: Mopar Grandpa

Re: Approx. hours for a partial rotieserre resto... - 02/26/11 04:15 PM

FWIW; I am not a paint & body man but will tell you the above estimates of manhours is extremely hard to determine due to all of the unknown factors of hidden rust, previous repairs, etc.
I just had my '69 Road Runner done by a very reputable shop, wins Gold at the Mopar Nats quite often, and the final bill came out much higher than he or I were planning on. The car needed new quarters, a new hood, outer wheel wells replaced, new trunk pan & trunk extensions, work on the doors, fenders, etc. The car was structurally sound, no work to the roof, A or C pillars but it still took a lot more time than anticipated.
When the shell was delivered it already had the old quarters removed, the shell had been acid dipped and hand sanded and put in epoxy primer (I did that)and yet it took 678 manhours to complete the paint and body work. The 678 manhours did not include any re-assembly other than hanging the doors, fenders, hood and trunk. Now, this was not a partial restoration, it was full blown to replicate the way the car rolled off the assembly line and it is absolutely georgeous and correct, even the spot weld replications, drips in the underbody primer, overspray, etc.
I would think 400-500 hours would be pretty close depending on the extent of the work and the extent of hidden issues. I have had 2 paint/body men tell me to plan on 100 manhours for taping, painting, color sanding and buffing once it's ready to hit the paint booth so that leaves 300-400 hours for everything else, that's 10 weeks on the high side @ 40 hours per week. Just my
Posted By: cloneguy

Re: Approx. hours for a partial rotieserre resto... - 02/26/11 06:34 PM

Grandpa, Your experience is why we do everything on a fixed bid. That way the customer never gets the sticker shock.

Your car would have been $18k flat plus parts and materials at our shop.
Posted By: Mopar Grandpa

Re: Approx. hours for a partial rotieserre resto... - 02/26/11 07:19 PM

Your car would have been $18k flat plus parts and materials at our shop.

NOW you tell me. Just kidding. Although the car was not a rust bucket there were quite a few places of hidden rust that had to be fixed and although I spent a lot more than I had budgeted I am extremely happy with the final product. When I die I'm not going to be able to take my checkbook with me cause I won't have a pocket to put it in.....I came into this world naked and I'm going out naked.

I have another car, '68 Barracuda Hemi car, that was done at another friend's shop and the bill was $30K and it wasn't an OE restoration and needed very few parts. How can you do them for $18K in labor?

Attached picture 6497802-EPV0325.jpg
Posted By: cloneguy

Re: Approx. hours for a partial rotieserre resto... - 02/26/11 08:47 PM

Like you, when we die we won't be able to take anything with us. So, we figure there's no need to keep much extra on hand while we're here.

Seriously, we have average life styles in rural GA. Our overhead is next to nothing and we enjoy what we do.

We're also pretty good at what we do. We can't touch Alan when it comes to sub assembly restoration or reassembly but we fly when it comes to metal replacement, body and paint.

To clarify, I was comparing to the 678 hours you mentioned above. For $18k, we do the metal, body, paint, polish and body assembly and you do the final reassembly. Or we can do it but it's not included in the $18k price.
Posted By: anlauto

Re: Approx. hours for a partial rotieserre resto... - 02/26/11 09:32 PM

Quote:

To clarify, I was comparing to the 678 hours you mentioned above. For $18k, we do the metal, body, paint, polish and body assembly and you do the final reassembly.


$26.55 per hour...
Posted By: Silver70

Re: Approx. hours for a partial rotieserre resto... - 02/26/11 09:46 PM

Quote:

Quote:

To clarify, I was comparing to the 678 hours you mentioned above. For $18k, we do the metal, body, paint, polish and body assembly and you do the final reassembly.


$26.55 per hour...



That'd be a raise for me
Posted By: cloneguy

Re: Approx. hours for a partial rotieserre resto... - 02/27/11 01:30 AM

Quote:

Quote:

To clarify, I was comparing to the 678 hours you mentioned above. For $18k, we do the metal, body, paint, polish and body assembly and you do the final reassembly.


$26.55 per hour...



In fairness, we expect that we would be much faster than 678 hours to do the same job.
Posted By: Silver70

Re: Approx. hours for a partial rotieserre resto... - 03/01/11 06:27 AM

I'm under the 250 hour mark right now and heres where it stands. A few parts need some high build then just wetsand, paint assemble.

Attached picture 6503269-cuda228009.JPG
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Approx. hours for a partial rotieserre resto... - 03/01/11 06:40 AM

Sweet you got your work cut out for you Nice job and good luck keep us posted with some more pictures
Posted By: Silver70

Re: Approx. hours for a partial rotieserre resto... - 03/01/11 06:46 AM

The worst is definetly behind me now, I don't mind wetsanding an painting is the best part!
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