OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals.

Posted By: ECS

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 09/01/10 04:54 AM

Quote:

Mr. Walden , Unbelievably Incredible! Your "prototype" book is a magnificent piece of work PLEASE! Put me down for an autographed copy when things get rolling! Valiant is completely "Over the Top" Kudos to everyone involved!

Thank you very much Kevin for the kind words and for mentioning those who were also involved!

(If you only knew the effect this has on one.... Sad....Invidious Soul!)

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 09/03/10 10:18 PM

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The first set of Pictures, several more to come later in the week. Again, Congratulations to Dave and his team for the results and awards, the car really does raise OE Restorations to a new level. Enjoy the pictures, I mainly captured shots while the car was in the air, I hope someone captured some shots of the top side

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I could not agree more. I got to see the Challenger a couple years ago and did not think that they would exceed that car. Was I wrong. Got to go to both Carlisle and the Nationals this year. By far the best car I saw at either event. Congratulations guys on a job well done. So whats next?

Posted By: ECS

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 09/04/10 04:20 PM

I have had quite a few people asking about the battery and where we got it from. It is an original assembly line version that I received from Steven Juliano. Ed Meyer actually supplied the first unit that we were going to use but Steven swapped us out for this one. His was in better condition so it was definitely a welcome up-trade. (Thanks again Mr. J!) The great thing about this battery is that it will never go bad.

Posted By: HotRodDave

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 09/04/10 04:30 PM

How is the battery not going to go bad?

My guess is it is not filled with acid, jump start the car then it will run off the altenator

Posted By: JohnRR

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 09/04/10 05:01 PM

Quote:

How is the battery not going to go bad?

My guess is it is not filled with acid, jump start the car then it will run off the altenator

You are assuming it will ever be started again ...

Posted By: anlauto

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 09/04/10 05:27 PM

Those batteries are available in reproduction FYI

Posted By: Pacnorthcuda

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 09/04/10 05:38 PM

Dave--I am sure you have told us before...but...
What did you do with the Odometer?

Did it get a roll-back???

Posted By: ECS

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 09/04/10 08:27 PM

Quote:

My guess is it is not filled with acid, jump start the car then it will run off the altenator

Modern battery technology! The internals are now fitted with components that are both removable and rechargeable!

Posted By: ECS

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 09/04/10 08:30 PM

Quote:

Those batteries are available in reproduction FYI

Had we not located an original, I would have resorted to whatever is currently available. Of the three OE Gold cars that we restored, this was the only one that had an original battery.

Posted By: ECS

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 09/04/10 08:36 PM

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Dave--I am sure you have told us before...but...
What did you do with the Odometer?

Did it get a roll-back???

We took the mileage indicator/cluster apart and set it to display 3.1 miles.

Posted By: NV69B7RR

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 09/05/10 12:33 PM

Count me in for the book too! Please let me know whenit become available!!! Great job too!

Posted By: jrwoodjoe

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 09/05/10 12:46 PM

That is an car is impeccable.

im�pec�ca�ble Adjective :
(of behavior, performance, or appearance) In accordance with the highest standards of propriety; faultless

Nice job DAVE!

Posted By: JulesdaWiperman

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 09/05/10 02:47 PM

Dave,
could you please post some pictures of the steering column
on the engine side please?
I am doing 3 A body columns right now and want to do them right.
Thanks
Jules

Posted By: ECS

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 09/07/10 05:03 PM

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Dave,
could you please post some pictures of the steering column ....

Hi Jules. I hope these will show what you were looking for. If you need the correct 3/8" thick, open cell gasket for the mounting plate (reference photos) we now manufacture them. They are not the incorrect foam that is currently being used throughout the industry. We also offer the correct style (open cell) gaskets used for the entire vehicle.

Posted By: JulesdaWiperman

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 09/07/10 05:14 PM

Thank you very much Dave.
Very nice work indeed.
Jules

Posted By: ECS

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 09/07/10 11:48 PM

A few people have asked about the color coding on the brake lines. I believe in one of the other threads someone had stated that these were never color coded. Here is a picture of the originals that were taken off of this 10,000 mile Valiant Survivor. I don't know if every example was color coded but it would have been very easy to overlook this detail if oxidation had completely overtaken the different hues. My originals were definitely color coded from the factory!

Posted By: anlauto

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 09/08/10 01:15 AM

Do you have a picture of the master cylinder before you removed the lines. I want to make sure the fittings are "clocked" correctly.

It appears as if the purple fitting is in too far, and the gap between the threads and the nut portion is too wide on the reproduction fitting that you used.

Posted By: anlauto

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 09/08/10 01:16 AM

And yes Dave....I'm just joking....

Posted By: ECS

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 09/08/10 03:24 AM

The Master Cylinder is one of the few items that we DON'T have a "Before and After" picture. It was replaced before we got the car so who knows how those fittings were originally clocked?!?

Just another "lie" that we all covered up prior to the Show! Maybe the "Valiant Team" should be banned from any future Mopar events!

Why....the audacity of it all....

Posted By: ECS

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 09/09/10 12:11 AM

Here are a few more from the show! Tom Barcroft will be bringing some really detailed photos and I will post them for those who have requested some close up shots.

Posted By: stevenjuliano

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 09/09/10 01:13 AM

Quote:

A few people have asked about the color coding on the brake lines. I believe in one of the other threads someone had stated that these were never color coded. Here is a picture of the originals that were taken off of this 10,000 mile Valiant Survivor. I don't know if every example was color coded but it would have been very easy to overlook this detail if oxidation had completely overtaken the different hues. My originals were definitely color coded from the factory!

hey dave....i find this of interest. obviously your ends were colored from day 1. ive checked my hemi survivor cars and cant find any trace of color. do keep in mind they are power brake cars. has anyone ever seen colored fittings on any power brake cars?
dave and co......super duper job!
sj

Posted By: ECS

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 09/09/10 06:48 PM

Howdy Steven! Here is a picture of the lines before they were removed from the car. I know the hues are a bit washed out in the pictures (especially the blue) but the fittings display their colors vividly in person.

Posted By: ECS

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 09/09/10 07:17 PM

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There are so many little weird things about this A Body that you don't usually find on an E or B Body...amazing

Hi Alan! This was a controversial subject a few weeks back so I thought I would post these pictures of the alternator before it was restored. The Nationals hadn't even concluded and one of the "experts" was gossiping to others how I didn't apply the "yellow" inspection marks properly on the unit. Just because he had never seen a painted inspection mark "sprayed" on a housing, he assumed it was incorrect. Anyone looking at the original example would realize that the yellow over-spray on the INSIDE of the housing had blown through the openings from the FRONT! (If you look closely, there is actually quite a bit more than the line is pointing to.) Also notice the small yellow inspection mark on the bottom mounting hole. It was also "sprayed" on the unit. You can see the over-spray as is dissipates and the lack of "puddling" (had it been brushed or dabbed) in the 90 degree angles of the aluminum. One thing I have learned from doing these cars is that there will always be exceptions and oddities as it pertains to vehicles that were built by humans.

Posted By: ECS

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 09/10/10 06:08 PM

Here are some "Moving Pictures" courtesy of Tom Barcroft!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtAhBhJwe2M

Posted By: Mike Mancini

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 09/15/10 09:43 PM

Dave,

Could you please let me know what gaskets are available that were developed during this restoration, I may need some for one of my projects.

Thanks
Mike

Posted By: tallzag

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 09/16/10 01:21 AM

Could you please post pre-resto shots of the front seat studs and nuts? Curious how they looked originally.

Posted By: ECS

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 09/16/10 01:35 AM

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Dave,
Could you please let me know what gaskets are available that were developed during this restoration....

Hey Mike! Here are a sample of some of the gaskets we are manufacturing. They are the same "automobile" grade as the originals. We had to have the material custom manufactured because it was discontinued a few years ago. In the close up of the gas pedal gasket, the original is in the center and my reproduction is on the left. The incorrect spongy/foam gaskets are to the right. I also included a larger photo showing some of what we now offer. Take special note of the black gasket used to seal the heater box to the cowl opening. We use the exact material (in strip form) that was used by the factory. These were never manufactured (by the original supplier) in a solid circle, round sponge foam!

Posted By: anlauto

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 09/16/10 02:07 AM

Didn't James Fillmore at Detroit Muscle Technologies already come up with premium gaskets using the correct materials?

Your side-by-side comparison looks to be using the old crap solid foam gaskets from years ago

Nobody uses those anymore....

Oh yea...I thought there was NO REPRODUCTION parts is this Valiant restoration

Posted By: ECS

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 09/16/10 03:56 AM

Quote:

Your side-by-side comparison looks to be using the old crap solid foam gaskets from years ago Nobody uses those anymore....
Oh yea...I thought there was NO REPRODUCTION parts is this Valiant restoration

My "side by side comparison" was purchased by Dave Stuart (5 months ago) to see what was being offered. Our gaskets were made from the original materials, by the original manufacturer that supplied them to the Automotive World in the Sixties and Seventies.

Why the rhetoric questions Alan? You were neck deep in the ordeal that ensued just a week after the Nationals. Our original intent was to restore the Valiant without using a single reproduction part. Ten days before the show, Dave Stuart noticed that one of the exterior handles had hairline scratches. I had been buying/collecting NOS handles trying to get a pristine, matching set. (Reference the Picture Below) With just a few days left before the show, we decided to use a pristine reproduction instead of the damaged one. It stood out like a sore thumb (from the nos pieces) so the ENTIRE group/team made an eleventh hour decision to use the repos BUT with the original push buttons and gaskets. Four days before the show we noticed that an interior handle had some chrome that flaked off. We diligently tried to find another NOS replacement to complete the set. (Tony Dagostino can attest to this as he tried to find us another up to the day before the show.) One of our "friends" who was also involved with this project said that he would overnight a reproduction set that had all the correct markings. We went through the same scenario when they arrived. We couldn't replace just one because they looked better than the NOS versions. As a group, we decided to use the entire set. These decisions were made at the eleventh hour! We are not the "lying-hypocritical" group that some have decided to refer to us as. Besides using only NOS/Original parts, our goal was ALSO trying to beat the score that we achieved with the Challenger 2 years earlier. Sometimes circumstances change the course you have to take!

For the record Alan there was also one plastic strap that was a reproduction, as well as the clear overlay that covered the original VIN decal. (The VIN Decal IS still Original.) An original plastic cable strap broke two weeks before the show and the NOS replacement that Steve Juliano sent us ALSO broke when we tried to install it. The clear overlay looked good until we detailed the surrounding areas of the driver door so we decided to go with a "better look" over "ugly originality". It is odd that you never mentioned or were concerned with the "reproduction" paint that we used throughout the entire car!

Door handles, a plastic tie and a VIN clear overlay!.......When I find one more NOS handle, they will all be original and back in place. We are allowed to change them AFTER the show aren't we Alan? Who decided on the deadline for our Team achieving the original goals? I don't think the mission statement has to be abandoned just because we ran into some difficulty prior to the show......do you?! By the time you see the Magazine coverage, everything except the clear overlay will be "original" once again. In the overall scheme of things, I am still pretty proud of our Team and the final outcome. Sorry if we disappointed you Alan! Would you like to buy some leftover NOS door handles?!?

Posted By: anlauto

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 09/16/10 11:50 AM

For the record Dave....I missed that whole fiasco about the door handles in the last thread. I was in on the beginning, but missed the ending where the handles were mentioned...the thread disappeared too fast.

I just made my hap-hazard comment based on the gaskets pictured above

Posted By: ECS

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 09/16/10 02:11 PM

Quote:

For the record Dave....I missed that whole fiasco about the door handles in the last thread.

Who mentioned anything about door handles in a previous or "last thread"? If you "missed" that part, how would you have even known about them being mentioned at the "ending" of the thread?

Come on Alan.....who is doing the "fishing" now?

Posted By: Mike Mancini

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 09/16/10 02:27 PM

Dave are you worried about the judges seeing this thread now that you let the cat out of the bag regarding the small amount of repro parts on the car??

MIke

Posted By: not_a_charger

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 09/16/10 03:00 PM

Quote:

Dave are you worried about the judges seeing this thread now that you let the cat out of the bag regarding the small amount of repro parts on the car??

MIke

The same judges who incorrectly dinged him for the "wrong" power steering fluid? I'd hope that they'd leave well enough alone.

Posted By: ECS

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 09/16/10 06:34 PM

Quote:

Dave are you worried about the judges seeing this thread now that you let the cat out of the bag regarding the small amount of repro parts on the car??

MIke

To be direct and completely upfront about all of this Mike.....I don't care!!

"Not a Charger" (Mike) mentioned the power steering fluid ordeal. After bringing that incorrect infraction to the attention of the Head Judge, I never received an answer how it would be handled. As far as I know it is still considered an infraction. One good thing is that I did find out my deductions right after the show. At the event we (Dave Stuart, Steve Been and myself) had a conversation with Keith as to what the biggest deduction was for the car. He said it was "the incorrect color of the power steering fluid and we got dinged 1.5 points." Dan (another judge) asked about the clear overlay on the original VIN and I told him how I decided to recover it due to it looking a bit tattered and yellow. We did not conceal anything! Had we been asked about ANY of the reproduction pieces, we would have been totally upfront regarding their status. One thing is for sure....if these door handles and plastic strap show up on the Judging sheets when I receive them, it will only prove that the car was still being judged, almost five weeks AFTER the show was over.

I called Keith on Tuesday August 17TH to find the total deductions that were given to the car. He thought I was fishing for answers but I was actually getting a verbal commitment before disclosing the findings about the power steering fluid. At that point, I had researched the power steering fluid and KNEW that they had made a mistake. I wanted to know specifically what they found so there wasn't a "new" or "swapped" deduction to take the place of the power steering debacle that was soon to be disclosed. During our conversation I was told we missed 1.5 points for Power Steering Fluid, a half point deduction for the VIN clear overlay and a deduction for the wrong date sequence of the tires. He said there might have been a few other "fraction of a point" deductions but he didn't have the judging sheets with him at that time. I was also told that the Valiant scored the "best" between the Cuda and the Challenger regarding the originality and condition of the NOS tires. I checked my scoring sheet for the Challenger and it said that there was a "minute deduction because of age" for that particular tire set. If we did better with the Valiant then our "deduction" for the tires should less than a "minute" infraction. I would certainly hope that the judging of the Valiant was completed on August 14TH and a "shell game" does not ensue due to all of these following controversies!

Posted By: hotairballoonpilot

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 09/16/10 07:26 PM

If the judges can not tell the differance between repro and nos handles and they miss it I'd say tough luck. To me it would be like me trying to judge that type of cars and not knowing the differance. If they are still judging it now it says a couple of things.

1. They are TRYING to find something else wrong to not give it what it should get.

2. It says that that car is like no other and it is one he11 of a job! 2 million thumbs up!

Congrats either way Dave
corey

Posted By: ECS

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 09/16/10 08:48 PM

Quote:

If the judges can not tell the differance between repro and nos handles and they miss it I'd say tough luck. To me it would be like me trying to judge that type of cars and not knowing the differance. If they are still judging it now it says a couple of things.

Hi Corey! How have you been doing? Great I hope.

With all due respect, NO ONE could have distinguished the difference in what Mike Ross sent me (to use) while we were in a pinch. The two of us have had our differences but I can honestly say that what he offers is every bit as authentic AND correct as what was offered from the Factory! We would not have even remotely considered using them if they were not exactly like the originals. (We did however use the original push buttons and gaskets to try and keep with our original mission statement.) Even though the show is over, it is still important that I put the original pieces back in place. I did receive (just yesterday) the final outside door handle that I had been waiting for. The original interior handles are being re-chromed so at least they will be put back where they came from.

Regarding the Judges, other than what I have admitted here, they really don't (absolutely) know either way! In the next couple of weeks ALL of the handles will be "original" and back in place. I guess they will just have to go back and change the scoring AGAIN if that is what resulted from my post yesterday. I still maintain that a licensed, subsidized independent manufacturer, commissioned by Chrysler is just as legitimate for parts as the "beat-up" NOS versions from years ago. Think about it! The companies that made parts for Chrysler (back in the day) were nothing more than licensed, subsidized independent manufacturers, commissioned by.......! Sometimes the past IS a forecast of the future.

Posted By: anlauto

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 09/16/10 09:00 PM

...except for now...they're made in China

Posted By: ECS

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 09/16/10 09:10 PM

Quote:

...except for now...they're made in China

Does it really make a difference in the correctness of the parts? I would bet that some of the parts made in the Sixties were from different Countries. The only difference is whether or not you were aware of it. I personally would rather have a perfectly made part from China than an incorrectly made part from the USA. Sorry......I guess even my Patriotism has its boundries!

Posted By: anlauto

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 09/16/10 09:32 PM

Posted By: anlauto

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. DELETED - 10/15/10 05:56 PM

Quote:

I think the mopar hobby has become what the corvette hobby has been.

That's because the Corvette owners are now buying and restoring MOPARS.....Ford guys too

Posted By: ECS

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. DELETED - 10/15/10 05:59 PM

Quote:

I think the mopar hobby has become what the corvette hobby has been.

I have actually been involved in the Corvette hobby. I also own a Thoroughbred Gold (Ford's OE) Boss 302 Mustang, a National award winning Ram Air III 400 Firebird and NEVER had the kind of backbiting problems I have had with a few select people in the Chrysler World. I have actually been called a "conspiracy guy" when I voiced my displeasure about their busybody behind the scenes actions. I always thought a conspiracy was something that is rarely supported by any conclusive evidence. These same guys did this garbage with my last two OE cars! I would classify THAT as a repeat of History....not a paranoid conspiracy!

Below is another picture to support the conspiracy theory!

It appears that another person is also part of the paranoid fraternity that I am a member of. Tom Barcroft sent me this photo of a 1977 (15,000 mile) slant six "Survivor" vehicle. What a coincidence! Another Fluke!! Are all of you "experts" taking notes regarding these "conspiracy" FACTS?!? So much for that "98% certainty" thing that you were told Cliff!

Posted By: ECS

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. DELETED - 10/15/10 06:35 PM

Quote:

FWIW, my '74 Dart had rubber gaskets originally. I still have them.

Hi Chris! Thanks for the post!!

So when do you think we will start to see original examples (pictures) posted from the "experts" showing the cork gaskets that were supposedly used on factory Slant Six cars? One "expert" had commented that he had documented MANY over the past few years. He was "98%" sure that all slant six cars came with cork valve cover gaskets! After spending all that time and effort, you would at least assume he took some photos....right? I'm still patiently waiting to see some documentation!

Posted By: gdonovan

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. DELETED - 10/16/10 12:53 PM

Quote:

Hi Chris! Thanks for the post!! So when do you think we will start to see original examples (pictures) posted from the "experts" showing the cork gaskets that were supposedly used on factory Slant Six cars?

As a Chrysler tech starting in late 83 at the tender age of 17 I got all the puke jobs.

Like doing spark plugs and valve adjustments on slant sixs.

Every single leaning tower of power I worked on came with rubber gaskets... and I worked on plenty that had not been touched before.

Posted By: ECS

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. DELETED - 10/17/10 01:03 AM

Quote:

As a Chrysler tech starting in late 83 ......
Every single leaning tower of power I worked on came with rubber gaskets... and I worked on plenty that had not been touched before.

Thank you very much for your input Gary. For whatever reason, the magazine covering the car decided to solicit "opinions" about OUR restoration from individuals that couldn't find their butt with both hands! If you were doing a study on Cats, would you go to the Dog Pound to do your investigation or find answers? Some "expert" told the editor that they were 98% sure that these cars came with cork gaskets from the factory. This comment shows that their knowledge about this particular detail is either non-existent, they simply lied or were doing their best to throw a wrinkle in our story. This "someone" saw the vehicle at the Nationals and KNEW we used a rubber gasket. I guarantee that if we had used a cork gasket, this person would have said the rubber one was correct! If I am totally off base, how could any "expert" be so wrong about something they claimed they were 98% sure about? Keep in mind that NO ONE (so far) has been able to validate this "factory cork gasket" theory. Are all of you guys just lying about what you observed when you worked on these cars back in the day? No need to answer....it was a sarcastic-rhetoric question! I think we all know the facts, as do the instigators/experts who desperately want to interject some angle of doubt or incorrectness in our Valiant article! What a joke!

Posted By: MMC Detroit

1967 slant 6 - 10/17/10 01:09 AM

Rubber gasket

Attached picture 6253888-1966rubbergasket.jpg

Posted By: Paul Jacobs

Re: 1967 slant 6 - 10/17/10 03:54 AM

Dave,

Funny, I have a box of those PCV hoses like yours, and other variants off original cars. But it is easier for some to believe there is but one style hose, so the cookie cutter restoration crowd is happy, and the vendors selling these parts make more money!
I find it so interesting that until now, no one has ever cared about any 6cyl car in history. With all the restoration experts, magazine editors & publishers out there, none, have ever once, given us a tech article on detailing the slant six. No photographs, no engineering drawings, no anything! Now all of a sudden, you are the target of these same individuals.
Their only agenda is to discredit anyone who questions their "authority". Even when presented with hard facts, they discount them and rely on their "expertise" gathered "over the past 20,30 years". Their arrogance/ego leads them to think only their knowledge is valid.
Some of these experts are merely armchair quarterbacks who speak of their vast knowledge and expertise, but who have never actually built a car anyone of us have ever seen. They are the ones at the shows who walk up to your car and point to the mistakes you made, but when asked, they can't take you to their perfect restoration! I say to them, put up or stop the criticism.
Suppose you are an expert who has examined 1000 original cars. You could come to many conclusions of the way Mopars were seemingly built. But in the grand scheme of things, you have hardly documented the other several hundred thousand cars built in the muscle car era. The point is, there are so many variables that no one will ever know it all-though they will always have an opinion, right or wrong.
I've personally had it with the lack of integrity, back-stabbing, and down right lies, that go on in this hobby. They do nothing to help anyone, especially anyone new to the hobby trying to learn new things. It makes me not even want to get on Moparts, or be involved in the hobby some days.
And thank god for all you great people out there that contribute to the hobby!

I'm done for now.....

Posted By: ECS

Re: 1967 slant 6 - 10/17/10 04:38 AM

Quote:

I find it so interesting that until now, no one has ever cared about any 6cyl car in history. With all the restoration experts, magazine editors & publishers out there, none, have ever once, given us a tech article on detailing the slant six. No photographs, no engineering drawings, no anything! Now all of a sudden, you are the target of these same individuals.
Their only agenda is to discredit anyone.....

Not this time Paul! They have messed with the wrong person! I have started the ball rolling to show some of these hotshots just how smart they really are. They will either do the right thing or pay the consequences! Enough is enough. Nice talking with you earlier tonight....I will keep you posted.

Posted By: Chris G

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. DELETED - 10/17/10 05:08 AM

Quote:

Hi Chris! Thanks for the post!! So

Dave, crappy pic, but you can see the blue. 17K 318.

Attached picture 6254180-DSC04017.JPG

Posted By: Chris G

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. DELETED - 10/17/10 05:09 AM

And off the car...

Attached picture 6254182-P1030212.JPG

Posted By: ECS

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. DELETED - 10/17/10 05:21 AM

Quote:

And off the car...

Come on Chris!!!! You should know that this is just my imagination and nothing but a "conspiracy"!

What I really should say to the "experts" is this.....Sorry that you got your tails handed to you, thoroughly trounced and beaten at your own game!

You should have done your homework better and ate your spinach. Look no further than the reflection in the mirror to find the reason for your discontent!

Posted By: MMC Detroit

Cork replacement - 10/17/10 11:33 AM

Cork replacement reference. I have photographed many but have never taken one apart. A a result I plan to study these engines much closer moving forward. I'm going to expand the ICCA reference manuals to include 318 and 6 cylinders in the future.

I glad that there are experts out there relating to 6 cylinders because it is currently stated in the Valve Cover Gasket Section of the manual that "this area is still under review" for 1965 - 74 engines from various assembly plants throughout that period. If there is anyone that wants to contribute to the expansion of this section to help advance the Mopar hobby please contact me.

Attached picture 6254344-Corkreplacement.jpg

Attached picture 6254344-Corkreplacement.jpg

Posted By: MMC Detroit

Re: Cork replacement - 10/17/10 11:47 AM

One owner car. The original owner told me that he replaced the rubber gasket with the same type gasket over 30 years ago.

Attached picture 6254348-1966rubbergasket2.jpg

Attached picture 6254348-1966rubbergasket2.jpg

Posted By: MMC Detroit

Re: Cork replacement - 10/17/10 11:51 AM

One owner truck. The original owner told me that he replaced the rubber gasket with the a cork type gasket in 1980. The truck has been parket for 20 years.

Attached picture 6254350-1970replacementcork.jpg

Attached picture 6254350-1970replacementcork.jpg

Posted By: MMC Detroit

1974 Duster - 10/17/10 12:02 PM

Original owner Duster 27K miles. The only items changed.
Valve cover gasket from rubber to cork
Touched up the paint on the engine
PVC
Rad cap

Attached picture 6254353-Duster1974a(10).jpg

Attached picture 6254353-Duster1974a(10).jpg

Posted By: MMC Detroit

1973 Challenger 318 - 10/17/10 12:17 PM

Rubber

Attached picture 6254359-1973Challenger.JPG

Posted By: MMC Detroit

1969 440 - 10/17/10 12:35 PM

Original 3000 mile car

Attached picture 6254367-valvecover2.jpg

Posted By: MMC Detroit

1971 Barrauda - 10/17/10 12:40 PM

1971 318 original owner Barracuda

Rubber gasket

Attached picture 6254371-1970318barracuda.jpg

Posted By: MMC Detroit

1970 Hemi - 10/17/10 12:59 PM

Cork 15K original mile car

Attached picture 6254390-1970cork.jpg

Posted By: anlauto

Re: 1970 Hemi - 10/17/10 01:14 PM

I haven't read any magazine articles on this Valiant yet...

Who hard the experts giving you a hard time?

You've been talking about them for a week or so now, but no mention of any names....Can you list the names of people who are questioning or work?

Posted By: MMC Detroit

October assemblyt 1971 383 engine - 10/17/10 01:17 PM

Cork

Posted By: MMC Detroit

Re: 1970 TA survivor - 10/17/10 02:07 PM

340 Cork

Attached picture 6254471-340sixpackvcg.jpg

Posted By: MMC Detroit

1971 340 Engine assembled Feb 1971 - 10/17/10 02:11 PM

Rubber

Posted By: gdonovan

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. DELETED - 10/17/10 02:18 PM

Quote:

Thank you very much for your input Gary. For whatever reason, the magazine covering the car decided to solicit "opinions" about OUR restoration from individuals that couldn't find their butt with both hands!

I can't speak for other engines (I see people posting pictures of small and big blocks) but on the slant six I'm 100% positive because I had to do so many of the damn things adjusting valves.

Rubber gasket with painted tabs (one way to tell the darn thing had never had an adjustment) always cracked me up that Chrysler waited till the 80's to make the engine with a hydralic cam!

I had to rebuild one (225 with hydralic cam) in a truck that lost oil pressure and killed the crank & rods. Chrysler refused to replace the shortblock because the block was still good! madness.

Posted By: 71rm23

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. DELETED - 10/17/10 02:39 PM

Dave, all I can say is WOW! That Valient is awesome, good job and to your team

Posted By: ECS

Re: 1970 Hemi - 10/17/10 07:24 PM

Quote:

You've been talking about them for a week or so now, but no mention of any names....Can you list the names of people who are questioning or work?

First I want to thank the guys like Chris G, Dave Wise, Bob Conca, Gary Donovan and the others who have come forward to state the facts/truth. At this point Alan, I am not going to name the individuals who are nothing more than gutless pretenders. All in due time!! They do their COWARDS work behind the scenes. They don't care about conveying the truth! All they care about is preserving and maintaining the APPEARANCE of how great their knowledge is viewed by the industry. As long as their articles hold public superiority they are content. When someone else comes along to threaten their perceived superiority they start calling the editors to lie about aspects that are actually correct, in order to maintain their self serving greatness. It doesn't matter that THEIR articles and features are nothing but a bunch of garbage with respect to "correctness"! It isn't about reality....for them it is what everyone THINKS is correct! If they can gossip and get the editors to print that something is "not correct" or might be "in question", they are as happy as a clam. Keep in mind that these ego maniacs are usually the only source of validation/information for THEIR magazine coverage. They get to be the judge and jury for themselves as well as everybody else that makes it to the party. Most of these guys couldn't handle OUR LEFTOVER TRASH as it pertains to accurate restorations and correct factory procedures! Half of them don't even do their own work. I don't know about the rest of you guys but it has NEVER even crossed my mind to put my nose in their business, much less their magazine coverage. What a pitiful bunch of insecure pretenders!

Posted By: ECS

Re: 1970 Hemi - 10/20/10 03:51 AM

Quote:

I haven't read any magazine articles on this Valiant yet...

I was forwarded the article that will appear in Mopar Action and it was very accurate and entertaining. Cliff Gromer did a very professional documentary of the process that went into the restoration along with the efforts of those who made it possible. I am pleased to say that NONE of the "garbage" made its way in the feature. I wanted to say thanks to Cliff and the staff at Mopar Action for a job well done! After all the drama I hope everyone gets a copy to read and see the final results.

Posted By: MMC Detroit

Black Valiant - 10/26/10 12:21 AM

Does anyone know what the score was achieved by the 1970 Black Valiant at this years Mopar Nats?

Posted By: anlauto

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 10/26/10 01:12 AM

I think the final score is being kept private and confidential. I think the only point lost was for the power steering fluid being the wrong colour, but I'm sure Dave will give them plenty of proof that they (judges) are wrong therefore awarding Dave a perfect score.

At least that's the only deductions I've heard about

Posted By: anlauto

Re: October assemblyt 1971 383 engine - 10/26/10 01:13 AM

How does the "title" of this thread keep changing if you scroll up and read previous replies?

Posted By: JDMopar

It's magic ! - 10/26/10 02:12 AM

It's close to Halloween...so it's magic!

Posted By: ECS

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 10/26/10 04:24 AM

Quote:

I think the final score is being kept private and confidential.

Not at all Big Al!! I literally just sent Keith an email about this subject before seeing that this thread had been raised from the dead! (Perfect timing for Halloween....huh?!?!)

Just this past Saturday I received the OE GOLD Certificate. The points are changed every year to keep things form being "figured out", so this years OE allocation was 2250 total points. We received 2240.75 points which means that we were deducted a total of 9.25 points. The "fluid" was a 1.5 deduction and my clear VIN overlay (over the original VIN decal) was given a half point deduction. See the caption below written by Mopar Action concerning this subject matter! The Challenger had a scoring percentage of 99.23% where this car received a 99.59%. I didn't get the itemized deductions with the Certificate so I have no idea where the remaining -7.25 points came from. There were some comments about our tires not having consistent dates but I don't think that they would have held that many "negative" points. Besides, two of the tires WERE correctly dated for the car which left three to take the brunt of whatever points were subtracted!

COMMENTARY FROM MOPAR ACTION MAGAZINE

"The Valiant did not hit a perfect score, having points deducted for having brown power steering fluid instead of red auto trans fluid in the reservoir, and a new - though exact - clear overlay on the original VIN label, as the original overlay had turned yellow and could not be made to look new. Here again, we question the judges. The factory manual states specifically that power steering fluid and NOT auto trans fluid be used in the system to avoid damage. Also, if the overlay (but not the VIN sticker itself ) was knocked, wouldn�t it follow that rechromed bumpers or even a repaint, or new upholstery be knocked? Doesn�t seem consistent."

Posted By: ChryCoGuy

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 10/26/10 05:08 PM

Cool thread!

Little more drama than I would prefer, but I guess it's all part of what the hobby has become (or perhaps more accurately - a regular day at moparts

).

All that aside, seeing this Valiant in "as new" condition answers a lot of questions that I had from back when I was buying and driving these cars as beaters. There were always a number of common items that seemed to rust out on these cars and looking at the reference photos in this thread I see that they generally are the parts that were unpainted or poorly painted from the factory. For example, the brake lines with the undercoating only on the bottom side would have been great for trapping water and road salt in them to make sure that that brake line failed in 6 or 7 years in my area of the world!

Seeing your car is the equivalent of stepping in a time machine to document one of these as it rolled off the assembly line. I for one have never seen one in this condition, so I really appreciate the chance to see one now.

Thanks so much to all involved for actually bothering with a slant 6 A-body - it's about time these cars received some attention. I mean, despite the fact that we all drooled over 6 pack Roadrunners and Hemi Challengers back in the day, these little bombs were the ones we (or our parents) were actually driving at the time.

Also, thanks for taking the time to share this with the Moparts crowd despite all the negativity that seems to surround the subject!

Posted By: AutoEngineer

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 10/26/10 05:15 PM

Dave, cheers

You and your team have done excellent work, there is no doubt about this. It has been a big favour for the whole Mopar community to restore a plain jane Valiant, a car that is very often overlooked. Not all Mopar enthusiasts have a possibility to have a R,V or U-code car as a basis for a resto job. In this hobby of old cars we should not look down on these 4 door sedan cars that kept most people on the wheels decades ago. Hundereds of thousands were manufactured, but how many are left now, and how many after 10 or 20 years? May be a few.

Many enthusiasts are already having in their garages rare or even more rare "sporty" muscle cars, but how many have a 4D Valiant, Dart, Coronet, Satellite etc... Dare to have one beside the muscle cars you already have. That's something different, COOL and a sign of a real automotive enthusiast.

I have for instance two '70 E bodies, a ragtop and a hardtop, both original big block cars, but now I am planning to have a early 70's or late 60's 4D Mopar, black, and the bigger the better.

Don't take too seriously the comments of those "experts" criticizing the level of your resto or some details. It's however a "Olympic Gold Medal" level resto. At least 99% of the Moparts members can agree it.

No matter what's the issue or decision in the life, you can't satisfy 100% of the people. Also in this hobby is the small group of people you can never satisfy.

Looking forward to see other great restorations from you. You have a given a lot to this hobby, keep up the great work.

Posted By: ECS

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 10/26/10 11:24 PM

Quote:

Looking forward to see other great restorations from you. You have a given a lot to this hobby, keep up the great work.

Thank you VERY much! With all of the drama that is starting to take place (regarding the judging) I do not think I will be "welcome" or actually want to be involved with another OE project.

Posted By: anlauto

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 10/26/10 11:34 PM

Quote:

With all of the drama that is starting to take place (regarding the judging) I do not think I will be "welcome" or actually want to be involved with another OE project.

Out of curiosity...

Have you had other brands of cars judged to OE level?

I know the answer is yes, so the question is: Do the "other guys" have this much "drama" or were they more welcoming to your restorations.

I've heard that Corvettes and Mustangs are light years ahead of Mopars as far as the level of restoration is concerned...Any truth to that statement?

Posted By: JulesdaWiperman

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 10/26/10 11:58 PM

I would love to see some of the cars the judges have restored or help restore.
Shouldn't they score perfect?
Jules

Posted By: ECS

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 10/27/10 01:45 AM

Quote:

Do the "other guys" have this much "drama" or were they more welcoming to your restorations.

I am dumbfounded on this one Alan! Every car I have ever had judged (brand X) was explained in detail as to what was deducted. On BOTH of my other Chrysler OE cars, I received a vehicle summary along with the OE certificate. NOT WITH THIS ONE! I was told that the summary sheet and Certificate was processed by the judges and then sent to Jim Belinda for HIM to forward to the participants. Why would the certificate be sent but not the summary sheet if BOTH were sent to Jim by the Judges? If both were completed, wouldn't it make sense to send everything at once rather than double the cost and effort of shipping the two documents separately? It just seems a little weird and different from the last two times!

The deductions seemed to change from what we were told at the show. I have a strong feeling that a couple of extra deductions might have been added AFTER the fact. Why all the secrecy?! I guess time will certainly tell. In essence, we really didn't take the car to be judged! We knew what we were bringing and thought it would serve as a learning experience for those who "judged" and saw the car. We did this to show the entire hobby that ANYONE could compete or be involved with the highest program in the Mopar venue. So many times I hear people talk about how they "only" have a certain type of lowly vehicle and could "Never" compete or be viewed as one of the elites. HOGWASH!!! Everyone involved in this Hobby is just as important as the next person. It doesn't matter what kind of car you have or the engine between the fenders. This Valiant is BETTER, NEATER, COOLER AND BADDER than ANY car I own.....period! It is my personal favorite amongst a pretty neat group of my Muscle Cars. This is the type of Car that made the Chrysler Corporation what it is! Not the HEMIS....not the SIX PACKS! Many of us grew up in the back seats of cars just like this. Going to Church, School, Grocery Shopping, Vacations, Trips to Grandmas, Holiday Journeys, etc...! I actually think that this restoration may have exposed some of the "cracks" in the Judging program. The wrong Color Power Steering Fluid??? Where did THAT come from? I also thought the Judges were to ask permission before removing parts off of your car! No one on the Valiant team remembers anyone being asked if they could remove our P/S reservoir cap! We were also told that NO CAR would ever get a perfect score and that they would ALWAYS find something to deduct in order to keep a perfect score from occurring. I guess if a car could be transported from 1970 they would fabricate something in order to accomplish that particular objective. Keep in mind that none of this is about "sour grapes". We just broke every OE record and took Best of Show at the event! It is simply about measurable continuity within a Judging program. It should be transparent and structured for everyone involved.....including us peons with 4 door vehicles!

Posted By: Morty426

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 10/27/10 02:12 AM

Dave - You really should do a station wagon.

Chris

Posted By: ECS

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 10/27/10 03:07 AM

Quote:

Dave - You really should do a station wagon.

When you have to resort to extremes just to have people do the right thing, it starts to take away from the enjoyment of it all. From people calling editors to "boast" of things that we did wrong (who never even saw the car, before OR after the restoration) to moving targets within the judging programs, I think I have had about all the fun I can handle for now. Tom Barcroft has an original Sno-Runner he received from Chrysler for a sales promotion in the early 1980's. It is still in the crate and in the original packaging. I wonder if we could talk Tom into bringing it to the Nationals (for judging) to see what Chrysler did wrong during the assembling of that particular original vehicle?

Posted By: dan9

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 10/27/10 01:55 PM

You really didn't take the car to be judged? I thought that was the purpose? I was at the nationals and got to see the car. I don't know of any average guy who could or would have the patience for all the details you had to pay attention to, let alone the bickering months after the event. I think you did set a new standard in my opinion.

Posted By: LimeliteAero

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 10/27/10 01:56 PM

Dave,
I think youre looking too hard at the situation. without the HEMI's and SIX-PAC's thered be no reason to do the Valiant....we'd all be driving Corvettes.

Posted By: ECS

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 10/27/10 03:49 PM

Quote:

Dave,
I think youre looking too hard at the situation. without the HEMI's and SIX-PAC's thered be no reason to do the Valiant....we'd all be driving Corvettes.

Hi Dave,
I really don't have an extreme view for any of this. I just take things for what they are and go with flow. What I meant was that without the bread and butter cars there never would have been the BIG DOGS that seem to be the backbone of the hobby today. It was the opposite years ago! If you look at the production numbers, there is no way that ANY manufacturer could have been successful if they strictly relied on the sales of their specialty "Muscle Cars". In most cases, the Hemis, Boss Mustangs, Ram Air GTOs, etc.... were all loss leaders for the Car Companies. They probably didn't make a dime on ANY of those cars. It was the vehicles that had sales in the "hundreds of thousands" that allowed the funding for the FUN stuff! Hemi & 440X6 vehicles were basically built to draw attention to what was happening within the Manufacturer's specialty programs. Most couldn't afford those highly optioned vehicles so they settled for their less expensive brethren! Just to own something "related" to those cars was considered a badge of honor!

Posted By: LimeliteAero

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 10/27/10 04:16 PM

I understand wht youre saying but what I meant was, we wouldnt be enjoying the beautiful oddity of your recent work had it not been for the "popular" cars.

Posted By: ECS

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 10/27/10 05:19 PM

Quote:

I understand wht youre saying but what I meant was, we wouldnt be enjoying the beautiful oddity of your recent work had it not been for the "popular" cars.

Very True!!! This one was certainly different and a FUN restoration to be involved with! When we first got the car we took it out for a test drive. It had such a neat feel to it and was a complete throwback in time.

Posted By: Mike Mancini

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 10/29/10 03:18 AM

Hi Dave,

It was interesting to see the string of emails you forwarded me regarding the point deduct questions on the Valiant judging. I don't understand why the OE program can't give you (or anyone for that matter) a breakdown of the deducts. You did pay them to judge the car, aren't you entitled to see the judging sheets? If nothing more but to be able to correct if necessary some of the issues they may have found.

Posted By: Mike Mancini

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 10/29/10 03:19 AM

I also don't get the deduct for the clear overlay. The overlay seems unimportant especially when you were able to save the original VIN decal (something that is not always savable in a lot of restorations.)

Was there deducts also for the reproduction ECS decals throughout the car? i.e. trunk jack instructions, emissions etc?

Mike

Posted By: ECS

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 10/29/10 04:11 AM

Quote:

I also don't get the deduct for the clear overlay. ....... Was there deducts also for the reproduction ECS decals throughout the car?

Neither do I Mike or the other guys who were involved with the Restoration of the car. The original VIN was preserved but the clear border was meticulously removed so a new overlay could be applied. To answer your second question......NO! There were no points deducted for the reproduction emissions or the jacking Instructions decals. ANYONE would have known that the Jacking instructions was not original because the material was new and not yellowed! We even did a side by side photo comparison of the original and replacement, showing how we positioned them exactly the same. When I asked about the "VIN overlay" deduction in an email, I was rhetorically asked, "Did the door sticker come with clear vinyl over it?"

My response was, "To answer your question about the overlay.....NO....it was not the original one that was applied over the original decal. Based on your rationale (as it pertains to THAT subject matter) should I assume to see deductions for the reproduction paint used on the original body panels of the car, the reproduction plating on the original nuts and bolts, the reproduction chrome on the original front bumper, the reproduction blue paint used on the dash frame, the reproduction paint used on the original engine, the reproduction paint used on the original rear end housing, etc.... If you did not deduct for those areas (which fall into the EXACT classification as the overlay) what discriminating criteria did you use to ignore or distinguish between those same differences?"

I am starting to suspect that there were things fabricated to keep the score from being too high or close to the "unobtainable" perfect mark! After the door handle issue came out five weeks AFTER the end of the show, I think that particular area was used to shift or transfer "some" points to take the place of having the "wrong color P/S fluid"! There appears to be an additional 5-6 points that were not mentioned at the time of the Judging at the show. I simply asked what they were and have received nothing but evasive answers. Where is the rationale or linear thought process as it pertains to the Judging criteria? What am I missing here?

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 10/29/10 06:20 AM

Dave, what you are missing is the fact that they are ripping your car apart unmethodically (if thats even a word) just to make themselves feel better and to leave the highest score still obtainable by a yet to be determined person. I agree its total and complete BS since they are not giving you a straight answer or even an answer as to what the exact break down of point deducted is.

Hands down your Valiant has got to be the closest and probably THE best restoration yet anywhere. unfortunately, JEALOUSY rears its ugly head every so often only to spite things that they, themselves, can not achieve or have no desire to achieve!

Posted By: JulesdaWiperman

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 10/29/10 01:01 PM

Dave I told you this half way through your project, " You will never get a perfect score" because
the judges themselves are not perfect!
One day it's black the next day it's white.
Simple logic indicates that in order for them to give you a perfect score , THEY would have to know
how to PERFECTLY restore your car and I am positive they don't.
You are the only guy that has researched your car to death.
Forget about all the judging thing and enjoy the fact that this level of restoration will NEVER be outdone.
If I eat my words in the future, I would love to see a side by side with your car.

Jules

Posted By: ErikR

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 10/29/10 02:53 PM

Quote:

Simple logic indicates that in order for them to give you a perfect score , THEY would have to know
how to PERFECTLY restore your car and I am positive they don't.
Jules

exactly. This is exactly what turns me off the the whole OEM judging process. What are the EXPLICIT criteria? Maybe the explicit criteria for a perfect score are gonna be different for each car

Posted By: MOPARMIKE69

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 10/29/10 03:43 PM

I am completely amazed. This thread that has some awesome pictures and an incredible tail about the process of restoring and showing the lowly 4 door, has degenerated into a bunch of judge bashing and mindless speculation by those who have never been a part of the OE process. Never restored a car to this level or judged at a National event.

Dave won, he scored the highest ever points, he has received more praise for his efforts than anybody in the History of mankind.... and it is still not enough? So what if he didn't score perfect. This is a subjective hobby.
My God people move on.

Oh and by the way ErikR, "the explicit criteria for a perfect score WILL be different for each car." Mopars are not cookie cutter cars. No one car is like another, each car is one of one. I think that Dave has made the perfectly clear with his documentation.

Again.. HE WON... let's celebrate with a beer not a bunch of W(h)ine!

Posted By: ErikR

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 10/29/10 04:39 PM

Quote:

Oh and by the way ErikR, "the explicit criteria for a perfect score WILL be different for each car."

great, you get it!

Posted By: ECS

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 10/29/10 04:58 PM

Quote:

Again.. HE WON... let's celebrate with a beer not a bunch of W(h)ine!

Hi Mike,
With all due respect, this is not about winning or the highest score! It is about transparency and cohesive consistency within a Judging program that should be available to everyone. Let me ask you a question Mike. How much money could someone steal from you before you would consider them a Thief?.........A Penny? One Dollar? Five Dollars? Ten Dollars? One Hundred Dollars? It isn't the "win" or the "high points" that is the concern here. It is the principle of things! Not a single point should be manipulated or unaccounted for in ANY program. My involvement with this program is obviously finished. I don't expect to change anything concerning the outcome of the event. If however ANYONE in the future can benefit from the scrutiny and observations that have taken place from this project, that would be the greatest WIN or VICTORY that I could hope for!

Posted By: anlauto

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 10/29/10 05:40 PM

Dave
I think you've made it quite clear that this will be your last attempt at the OE judging events..

So maybe a new goal for you would be to see about getting yourself on the judging team ?You obviously bring a tremendous amount of knowledge to the program, as Jules said, your past performances with the three Mopars should prove you more then qualified

Maybe if they're not willing to expand their team, you could be an associate judge. Attend the judges meetings, view the cars, offer opinions, do research...whatever it takes...

Just a thought

Posted By: ECS

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 10/29/10 05:56 PM

Quote:

Forget about all the judging thing and enjoy the fact that this level of restoration will NEVER be outdone.
If I eat my words in the future, I would love to see a side by side with your car.

Jules

It would take a monumental effort to better this vehicle Jules. The time and artistic craftsmanship it took to construct this car was mind boggling. It took four of us the better part of two years (at LEAST 14 hours a day) to get this car to a "new" Factory level. I don't think I will ever try to top it because there is LESS than even a very "fine line" for any improvement. There is actually a greater risk of going backwards than improving on it. The only way I see doing it "better" would be to take a car that had been put away new and never driven, take it apart to refurbish/restore the years of oxidation and then perfectly reassemble it. Keep in mind that you would be crucified for ruining a perfectly good Survivor! Then again, with all the dust I have stirred up, maybe the Judges can't wait to give a "less deserving" car a higher score just to teach me a lesson.

You would hope that would never be the case but I guess anything is possible in the World of subjective Judging!

Posted By: hotairballoonpilot

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 10/29/10 06:28 PM

just wondering Dave
Who are the judges? Do they come on here or members here? I agree that what it took finacially to even enter this arena you should be allowed to see the actual sheets. Now take a local show that we put on that people pay 15 bucks tops to enter a judged class that compete for a 15 dollar trophey are they entitled to the same? yes no? to me not the same.

good luck
corey

Posted By: ECS

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 10/29/10 08:58 PM

Hi Corey,
Good to hear from you! I don't want anyone to think that this is a bashing against the Judges. They are Great folks and I consider them Friends! Keith, Dan and Matt are the some of nicer guys you will meet and are as passionate about the OE program as you will ever find. I don't know what or why this situation has gotten to where it is!?! Why (suddenly) the evasive answers and top secret data? For goodness sakes.....it is my vehicle! In the past, I have even called to get "points" information about cars that were not even my own!!! Something has definitely changed in the scheme of things!

Posted By: JulesdaWiperman

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 10/29/10 09:07 PM

What's changed is that concerning this car you know more than the judges so they won't tell you why because
you will be able to prove them wrong and as such damage their credibility.
Jules

Posted By: ScottSmith_Harms

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 10/29/10 09:08 PM

Quote:

Dave I told you this half way through your project, " You will never get a perfect score" because
the judges themselves are not perfect!
One day it's black the next day it's white.
Simple logic indicates that in order for them to give you a perfect score , THEY would have to know
how to PERFECTLY restore your car and I am positive they don't.
You are the only guy that has researched your car to death.
Forget about all the judging thing and enjoy the fact that this level of restoration will NEVER be outdone.
If I eat my words in the future, I would love to see a side by side with your car.

Jules

Great post Jules!

Dave, as I've said before, amazing job on the Valiant! Even though I have never seen it in person it's pretty obvious that you've set a new high water mark regardless of the score you recieved.

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 10/31/10 01:39 AM

Quote:

What's changed is that concerning this car you know more than the judges so they won't tell you why because
you will be able to prove them wrong and as such damage their credibility.
Jules

Jules, you are probably more right than you know! For example, the whole power steering fluid incident where Dave proved them wrong in BLACK and WHITE! Now they are probably scared to even point out what deficiencies there are with cars.

Posted By: JulesdaWiperman

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 10/31/10 04:50 AM

I would not say scared , more like trapped in a corner.
Dave has done SO much research on this car that only he and his team know for sure
what should be on it. How can the judges come on and say this and that is wrong
without having any where near the proof and research that Team Walden has done.
The brake fluid is just one example. I hope we hear more about the other deductions
in the near future.
Jules

Posted By: JulesdaWiperman

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 11/08/10 09:18 PM

So Dave any news?
Jules

Posted By: ECS

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 11/09/10 12:06 AM

Quote:

So Dave any news?
Jules

I have both the certificate and the Judging sheet. Would you like for me to "show" or "tell" the results?

Posted By: JulesdaWiperman

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 11/09/10 03:33 AM

of course.

Posted By: Mike Mancini

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 11/09/10 03:35 AM

Dave Please post the sheet and then comment on it. I want to see.

Mike

Posted By: anlauto

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 11/09/10 03:40 AM

Yea...show the world how big of a loser your car really is...

...sarcasm by the way...

Posted By: ECS

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 11/09/10 03:54 AM

Quote:

Yea...show the world how big of a loser your car really is...

...sarcasm by the way...

I admit it Alan! The car was an absolute Failure. That is why we are very close to starting the next candidate to trump this Car. I figured this might be a good time to let the cat out of the bag. I will post the "loser" results for this vehicle some time tomorrow! Just wait Alan.....you ain't seen NOTHING yet!

Posted By: anlauto

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 11/09/10 03:55 AM

I need to call ECS tomorrow about glass prices...
Is there a discount for people who are a pain in the A$$ ?

Posted By: VCODE

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 11/09/10 12:58 PM

Quote:

I need to call ECS tomorrow about glass prices...
Is there a discount for people who are a pain in the A$$ ?

Alan,That is too funny

Dave,I would like to see also

Bob

Posted By: ECS

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 11/09/10 04:53 PM

Quote:

Dave,I would like to see also
Bob

Hi Bob! You actually got to see the car up close and firsthand. Here are the results:

Posted By: burdar

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 11/09/10 05:06 PM

Quote:

My involvement with this program is obviously finished.

Quote:

That is why we are very close to starting the next candidate to trump this Car. I figured this might be a good time to let the cat out of the bag.

That's great news.

Posted By: JulesdaWiperman

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 11/09/10 06:08 PM

It's a joke . Right?
If this document is real , can it be more vague? !
How much is one "Nick" worth?
Jules

Posted By: ECS

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 11/09/10 06:41 PM

Quote:

Quote:

My involvement with this program is obviously finished.

Quote:

That is why we are very close to starting the next candidate to trump this Car. I figured this might be a good time to let the cat out of the bag.

That's great news.

Imagine that. In our free Nation you can STILL restore vehicles without being forced or required to be involved with one particular Judging venue! I think you can do this stuff without having to enter a vehicle in the Mopar Nationals......Right? You would probably like the 1969 T/A that I was referring to! Then again, maybe that is why I missed the obvious "contradiction" of my own words.

Posted By: anlauto

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 11/09/10 07:04 PM

Well if you look at the progression of your first attempt, to your second, and now your third...I would say you're on the right track....just try a little harder with your next car and possibly you'll reach your goal.

Talked to Charlie about glass...WoW shipping that to Canada is a killer eh ?

Posted By: ECS

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 11/09/10 07:05 PM

Quote:

If this document is real , can it be more vague? !
Jules

I thought the same thing Dr. J! With my Challenger, we received "No Deductions" for the BATTERY AND ENGINE section. That vehicle had a Reproduction Battery and NOS "service replacement" battery cables. The Valiant received "almost flawless except for one deduction" in the ACCESSORIES AND BATTERY section. It had a pristine Assembly line Battery and the cables were NOS Assembly line issue. Where was the deduction allocated? What accessory? Was it the Battery? According to the Judging sheet, where would anyone start to correct (or discuss) the "errors" that were pointed out?

Posted By: ECS

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 11/09/10 07:39 PM

Quote:

Well if you look at the progression of your first attempt, to your second, and now your third...I would say you're on the right track....just try a little harder with your next car and possibly you'll reach your goal.

Some things are simply impossible and have nothing to do with effort. For instance, where do you find pristine NOS date matching (specific to the build date of the car) Goodyear, Power Cushion 6.95 X 14, 1/2" Whitewall Tires? Keep in mind that once you find even ONE unit, it cannot have a SINGLE blemish or dry crack ANYWHERE on the sidewall. It has to look brand new even though it is 40+ years old! I have a couple of sets leftover due to small imperfections on the tires. The dates were good but the condition was not "new" looking or pristine. On some tires, the condition was perfect but the dates were off a bit. Sometimes you can't get both scenarios to coincide.

Hey Alan...with all of your experience (and our shortcomings with trying) have you figured out a way to change the date codes on NOS tires?

Posted By: TONY_DAGOSTINO

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 11/09/10 08:14 PM

dave,

i cant bite my lip any longer.

this judging deal is beyond description.

not that your tires are available in reproduction, but i would like to know if all of the other OE cars had original tires?

i know the few cars ive looked at in the past didnt.

so how do the cars with reproduction tires get judged?
do the dates matter on those tires?

of course the condition will be like new because they are new.

how can the guy like yourself who went thru the time and effort to locate nos correct tires even be in the same judging catergory of the guy that picked up the phone and ordered a new set, boy , that took alot of effort NOT!

what is the total points alloted for tires?
and what is the point breakdown for correct original?
repo?
date codes?
+ condition?

i wouldnt even think repo tires (or any other PART, not items like paint or fluids) shouldnt even get 1/3 of the allowable points, why should the effort, or lack of effort, be awarded at all for reproduction items. id rather have a set of not so perfect originals, then perfect new repos.

like you said before, YOU know what you brought there

btw, dave i did call you on sat, but didnt get an answer.
talk to you soon, tony

Posted By: ECS

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 11/09/10 10:10 PM

Quote:

so how do the cars with reproduction tires get judged?
do the dates matter on those tires?

I have no idea Tony. The tires I found were the nicest ones that I had ever located for any of the restorations we have completed. I spent the entire two years of the project trying to find a perfect set for the car. I actually did find a few correct NOS dated tires for the car BUT their condition was not like new! If I used those on the Valiant there would have been no points gain because we would have been deducted for their condition. I personally chose using the "wrong dates" because the tires used for the car had NEVER been on the ground. They had their original white lettering, whisker nubs and rubber center "flash" on every tire. It didn't bother me that 3 of them were a couple of months off of the car's build date. Unless you had a Goodyear decoder for the dating, you would not know the difference. I was not willing to use an NOS tire that was date coded correctly BUT with dry rot or damage to the sidewalls. I still had the original tires but they had 10,000 miles of wear on them. I am STILL looking to find the correct dated tires. They are harder to locate than any Goodyear Polyglas GT tires I have ever tried to find!

Posted By: anlauto

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 11/09/10 10:54 PM

Quote:

Hey Alan...with all of your experience (and our shortcomings with trying) have you figured out a way to change the date codes on NOS tires?

The answer is simple Dave....You should know from the past...Your company makes exact replicas of items you've needed in the past so why not fire up the old tire making machine, find some correct date code rubber pellets and make your own exact copies of the tires with the dates you need...Sounds simple to me

Posted By: JulesdaWiperman

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 11/09/10 11:52 PM

I still can't get over that judging sheet.
Dave you should be fuming from the vagueness.
That sheet basically says nothing about the points deductions
about specific errors ( if there even was more than already mentioned).
The judges are protecting themselves big time!
Are you going to try and find out what EXACTLY was wrong with other aspects of the car?
Jules

Posted By: ECS

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 11/10/10 12:11 AM

Quote:

....find some correct date code rubber pellets and make your own exact copies of the tires with the dates you need...Sounds simple to me

I talked with John Kelsey last week while attending SEMA and actually discussed having tires made without the DOT information molded into the sidewall. He said that up until six weeks ago he could have made the wording in the bead area. By doing this, the wording would have been invisible once the tire was mounted on the rim. Even if this could be done the Judges would still deduct for them being reproduction tires. There is something about the appearance/patina of original tires that can't be reproduced.

Posted By: ECS

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 11/10/10 12:30 AM

Quote:

Are you going to try and find out what EXACTLY was wrong with other aspects of the car?
Jules

I have already tried to get some specific answers! There was more effort avoiding the questions than it would have taken to simply answer them. Here is a BRIEF example of some of the email commentary that went back and forth between us:

From: Dave Walden
To: Keith & Joy Rohm
Sent: Monday, October 25, 2010 10:56 PM
Subject: Re: question

Howdy Keith,
Thank you for the update!! The Valiant "team" was curious how the deductions actually added up. I know at the show you had said that the power steering fluid was the largest deduction being a point and a half. I really didn't think those points would be adjusted or added back into the score even after the correct information was disclosed following the Event. The show was over and things were what they were! So what ended up being the lion's share of deductions that raised the total to -9.25? While the score was very high, we didn't think that the other infractions would have exceeded more than 5 points!?! I know that we were dinged a half point for the clear VIN overlay. Without knowing the deductions given for the tires, the power steering fluid and the overlay made a total of -2 points. What other area(s) of the car "ate up" the remaining -7.25 points? Just curious....as always!

Sincerely,
Dave

From: Keith & Joy Rohm <knjrohm@watchtv.net>
Subject: Re: question
To: "Dave Walden" <dave@ecsautomotive.com>
Date: Tuesday, October 26, 2010, 6:00 AM

Most OE contestants know where , if you want to call them shortcomings, are located.The contestant just hopes we don't find them.The value of as you call them deductions are determined by the team. You cannot outguess everything.

From: Dave Walden
To: Keith & Joy Rohm
Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2010 12:47 PM
Subject: Re: question

Hi Keith,
Why can't there be a simple answer to a simple question? I have never tried to hide anything with regards to having a vehicle judged in your program. I do my best to do things right and have ALWAYS told you guys the truth with regards to what we did. Concerning the tires, they are what they are! Try finding a mint set of Power Cushion 6.95X14 tires that just happen to have a perfect date that coincides with the exact build date of the car! You can't go to Kmart or Target to find a set!! I had to use what was available. By no means were we trying to "outguess" or fool anyone. We simply had to use what we were lucky enough to find. We didn't use them just to test you guys.....!

Posted By: TONY_DAGOSTINO

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 11/10/10 02:33 AM

dave you are 1000% right

dont stop asking, you wouldn't if it was someone else

you need to find out the areas to "correct" to make your car "nationals oe correct" whatever that may be

i'd like to know too,

its great to have a judging forum + i know it cant be easy,the judges should be commended for that,
but it needs to be based on something real, not figure it out or make up new criteria as you go along

is there a judging point sheet available?

off topic but a connected story,
many years ago, like close to 20, i wanted to become a "certified" classic car appraiser.
1 company nationally accalimed apparaisal company told me i needed to send in my appraisal form him + the guys would review it and let me know. for obvious reasons i didnt follow through with them, but i did with a apprasial company that made me go through lengthy seminars and testing prior to me getting certified.

if the oe judging has become too big for the current judging platform then maybe they need to stepback, regroup, reorganize + get better.

not just have a group of guys talking back and forth to come to a conclusion of the day.

id much rather hear "whoa dave, we havent inspected a car like this before + due to the over the top resto we now realize that we need to revamp our judging to properly judge and reflect a level of restoration that you have brought to us" not "were dinging you in this area",

like you said, you just want simple answers to simple questions

peace to all
tony

Posted By: ECS

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 11/10/10 07:25 PM

Quote:

dont stop asking, you wouldn't if it was someone else

you need to find out the areas to "correct" to make your car "nationals oe correct" whatever that may be

There is nothing left for me to ask them Mr. T! Those emails I posted are just a few of the correspondence that went back and forth trying to get specifics. I don't understand all the secrecy. I was told point blank that they would not address anything else regarding the judging score! (See for yourself in the email correspondence below.) Can anyone imagine taking a test in School and just receiving a grade?!?! No indication of what you missed or need to work on, just a grade saying that things were wrong but we won't tell specifically what was wrong! Like I said earlier, I KNOW what we did with this car and the things that were "wrong". Here were the last two emails to illustrate how this ordeal was concluded/finished. I never received a response after my final email listed below.

From: Keith & Joy Rohm <knjrohm@watchtv.net>
Subject: Re: question
To: "Dave Walden" <dave@ecsautomotive.com>
Date: Tuesday, October 26, 2010, 6:06 PM

DAVE,This is going in circles again your valiant is the nicest piece that we have ever had the opportunity to look at.Did the door sticker come with clear vinyl over it.I will not address anything else.You will be receiving your summary along with the other four OE contestants.
Thank You for the spirited conversation.
KEITH

Re: question
Tuesday, October 26, 2010 6:34 PM
From:"Dave Walden" <dave@ecsautomotive.com>
View contact details
To:"Keith & Joy Rohm" <knjrohm@watchtv.net>

Keith,
It is going in circles because you continue to do everything you can to avoid my simple and direct questions. It is not about having the "nicest" car that you have looked at. It is about cohesive consistency with the way things are done. To answer your question about the overlay.....NO....it was not the original one that was applied over the original decal. Based on your rationale (as it pertains to THAT subject matter) should I assume to see deductions for the reproduction paint used on the original body panels of the car, the reproduction plating on the original nuts and bolts, the reproduction chrome on the original front bumper, the reproduction blue paint used on the dash frame, the reproduction paint used on the original engine, the reproduction paint used on the original rear end housing, etc.... If you did not deduct for those areas (which fall into the EXACT classification as the overlay) what discriminating criteria did you use to ignore or distinguish between those same differences? I am not trying to be pushy! I genuinely ask these things because things don't make sense and I thought you might be kind enough to explain the answers. I apologize if I irritated you. Thanks again for everything Keith.

Dave

Posted By: cogen80

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 11/10/10 08:02 PM

what i take out of him not answering your questions is that he has no idea and there is not "standard" i'd guess you would call it while they are judging. they just wing it and make sure you don't get a perfect score. sounds like a bunch of BS to me. if they deducted points then they better know what they deducted for. how else are ya supposed to get better? what a freaking joke the whole thing is. yea we took points off but can't tell ya why.

Posted By: TONY_DAGOSTINO

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 11/10/10 09:09 PM

hi
there is a standard,
ive figured it out

below are all of the descriptions of the judging point system:

nick
deduction
highest quality
no deductions
small deduction
couple of small partial deductions
date coding
almost flawless except for one deduction
no deduction despite discussion
partial point deduction
like brand new

no why would anyone have a hard time figuring out that point structure

Posted By: DPelletier

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 11/10/10 09:52 PM

Quote:

hi
there is a standard,
ive figured it out

below are all of the descriptions of the judging point system:

nick
deduction
highest quality
no deductions
small deduction
couple of small partial deductions
date coding
almost flawless except for one deduction
no deduction despite discussion
partial point deduction
like brand new

no why would anyone have a hard time figuring out that point structure

Dave

Posted By: 44D6PAKCUDA

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 11/11/10 02:37 AM

Dave,with all thats been "exposed" in this post about the OE judging system,do you think,if you do another OE car,that you will be judged fairly or maybe looked at as being the "bad guy".

Posted By: ECS

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 11/11/10 02:51 AM

Quote:

Dave,with all thats been "exposed" in this post about the OE judging system,do you think,if you do another OE car,that you will be judged fairly or maybe looked at as being the "bad guy".

I simply told the truth and conveyed the facts for what they were. If the Judges are upset with any of this ordeal, they should look no further than the reflection in the mirror to vent their frustration! As stated earlier, I don't plan on doing another OE Mopar. If they would be vindictive to the point that you mentioned, it would certainly "expose" another Sad (and pitiful) aspect to what they offer this hobby.....wouldn't you agree?!?

Posted By: 44D6PAKCUDA

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 11/11/10 03:30 AM

I agree 100% Dave.I wonder what the future holds for Mopar Nats OE judging.......

Posted By: Troy

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 11/11/10 04:27 AM

So let me get this correct.....these "judges" say there are things wrong with the car but they won't tell you what the problems are?? Is that correct??

I'm sorry but that is the dumbest thing I have ever heard.

As far as I'm concerned, what little credibility those "judges" have just went out the window.

Posted By: Convertcuda

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 11/11/10 04:33 AM

I think its time for change. Why would someone want to spend tons of money and time and get unsatisfied results. I have watched the judging process for the last 3 years at mopar nats and had one of my customers car judged there. The judges that judged new less about the car than the owner. For example, the judge told me he did know the difference beteen a repro dash pad and a original one. We lost a point because we had a bigger gap on one side of the grill than the other. I have seen over a 100 cars with the same factory defect. It seemed to me that class we were in that repro parts scored higher points than NOS factory original. I wish they would tell guy that up front. They take points off for halogen headlights but not a repro dash. My excitement of taking another car to nats to get judged has been lowered since I have seen the judging process.

Posted By: ECS

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 11/11/10 05:00 AM

The "deduction" that baffles me the most is the one for the ACCESSORIES & BATTERY where we were given "almost flawless except for one deduction". Since there are one thousand accessories to the car, what was the deduction allocated to? I mentioned in an earlier post that my OE Challenger had a reproduction battery and received no deductions in 2008. This car had a BEAUTIFUL-FACTORY-CORRECTLY DATED-ASSEMBLY LINE BATTERY with NOS FACTORY-ASSEMBLY LINE-PRISTINE CABLES and we received a "deduction". I have personally NEVER seen another entry go through OE Judging with an assembly line battery in perfect working condition! The battery hold-down was original to the car and the rubber was LIKE NEW as well as the hold-down rods and attaching hardware!! Here are a couple pictures that show the battery and the cables.

Posted By: SomeCarGuy

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 11/11/10 05:14 AM

You got jobbed Dave, really you did.

I know that you enjoy, or did enjoy, this part of the hobby.

I could NEVER get into it. This crap is exactly why.

If all cars were made to "roll on repops", there would be no tire controversy. It is just stuff like that that makes me glad I stay away.

Other than the free entertainment. That I will take in.

Good luck and if you make it down here, look us up for a good time.

Posted By: ECS

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 11/11/10 05:40 AM

Thank you VERY much for the post!

I will always enjoy this stuff. I just can't figure out how I became the "bad guy" in all of this. All I did was ask some questions to convey to the rest of the Valiant team. (Tom Barcroft, Steve Been and Dave Stuart) I would have thought that with three Gold OE entries in the past five years, the Sponsorship Support and involvement with manufacturing some "okay" products for the industry, we might be considered an advocate to the program. Instead, I am shocked that this car has drawn so much animosity (and ill will) with a few people following the conclusion of the event. From anonymous people contacting the Magazines (trying to ruin our feature) to the stand off attitude of the Judges, this project has me dumbfounded with regards to the "after" Show responses.

Weird....Weird....Weird!

Posted By: JulesdaWiperman

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 11/11/10 02:16 PM

Dave,
This is the classic case of the student who knows more than the teacher syndrome.
The teacher does not know how to get out of the corner so let's just be vague about the results
and hope it all blows away.Where are the judges on this thread ? Why don't they chime in and discuss this?
Why don't other judges for that matter contribute their opinon in this matter?
Jules

Posted By: ECS

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 11/11/10 06:34 PM

Quote:

Dave, This is the classic case of the student who knows more than the teacher syndrome.

Brother Jules,
One thing I know from the Chrysler guys (only a small select few mind you) is that I don't know much of anything that I have been intimately involved with for the past 14 years. Whether it be Restorations, VIN data information or documented vehicle research, I will probably never be able to express a view without having to post MANY pictures to substantiate that particular view. Even when I do THAT, it still isn't good enough for the "experts" who have nothing more than their opinions to "type" and offer to everyone. I guess that's Okay! I don't think anyone should simply take another person's word for any of this stuff without taking the time to research it for themselves.

Posted By: hemicar1971

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 11/11/10 09:50 PM

Dave I look at this alittle differently. This is a game and the rules are not set in stone. They can change with new judges and new information,personal opinions, on and on. Until there is are proper standards to follow when judging any mopar the judges are free to judge anyway they would feel correct. Now you have posted every detail of your restorations. That is good for the public, but it is not always good for the Judging of your cars. These Judges have seen your posts on moparts and know most things that you have done to your car before they ever see it. They know the places to look for repro products and non correct date codes. I bet your car was on the judging plateform longer than all the other cars that were Judged. The Judges at the Nationals, I have watched them and have wondered how these huge men can get into a car and even look for things in hard to get to places that have dates codes. I do not know if they were the same Judges in 2010 but I had to laugh when watching them in 2008.

The Standard to reach is Gold at the Nationals and your cars have reached this.

This is why I drag race my mopar. The rules are set in stone.It is up to me to produce on the track. If I screw up being late on the light or run under my Window time it is all my fault, not any Judges fault.

Posted By: 65pacecar

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 11/11/10 09:55 PM

Dave,

Again, Congratulations on a perfect restoration that apparently pushed the judges at the Nats beyond their knowledge. The only explanation for such a vague results sheet and lack of detail on the deductions is the fact they had to be grasping at straws just to create a few deductions. From what I understand the original idea behind the detail sheet was to let the car owner/restorer understand the deductions to give them a chance to correct the issues; giving the owner a chance to be judged again after a waiting period of 2-3 years. I have been involved with OE Restored cars in the past and I must say the Ford and Vette Programs do a much better job of documentation and communication with the owner concerning their cars strong and Weak points. The MoPar Nats are billed as the premier Mopar show in the world, the judging format and results information should live up to the same billing.

Posted By: ECS

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 11/12/10 01:24 AM

Quote:

*This is a game and the rules are not set in stone........
*These Judges have seen your posts on moparts and know most things that you have done to your car before they ever see it........
*This is why I drag race my mopar. The rules are set in stone........

* It should never be a "game". The Judging criteria is simple and straight forward. If there is an error as it pertains to an Original Equipment deduction, document it and continue Judging.

* It never bothered or concerned me that this vehicle's components were on display long before the show. I welcomed the extra scrutiny to find any deficiencies with our efforts. When you do the proper research and document things in an accurate manner, you have no reason to be worried or feel the need to constantly look over your shoulder!

* I am not involved with racing but allow me to offer this analogy. Suppose you ran 3 races and on the third race you asked about your time because the time display was turned off. When you asked, the track supervisors told you that your time was better than the first two runs but with a few hiccups along the way. When you asked what the time was specifically, you were told that is was a good time and one of the better times that was run at the event. You asked AGAIN what your specific time was and what "hiccups" they were referring to?!? The event supervisors start to get upset and instruct you to be happy and content with the information that they have provided! It should be enough that they were willing to convey this information that they had provided about YOUR race. They then state that the subject matter is getting "redundant" and you are starting to "talk in circles" with your inquiries. They conclude by saying your time was better than the first two attempts and they were not going to discuss it with you any further! Case closed!

Now at this juncture in the story, how would you feel if someone from the OE tent walked over to the race track and said, "Hemicar1971, I look at this a little differently. This is a game and the rules are not set in stone....."

Posted By: hemicar1971

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 11/12/10 02:43 AM

As for drag racing this would never happen at a real track. If the time display does not come up on the tower at the end of the track you do not move into the staging lane. It is your job as the driver when it is your turn to make a pass to compare the time you have writen on the windows of your car to the time on the tower at the end of the track.If time does not appear they you can not compare. Also most bigger tracks have back up timers.

I went back to bracket racing from class racing. So if my dial time is 9:38 and I run under(faster)that time I loss. If I am slow off the light to leave and I run a 9:38 dead on my dial in and my opponent leaves earlier and runs near to his time I also loss.If I red light I loss.If I cross out of my lane,I loss. It is the first person across the finish line without fouling WINS. Everyone racing knows the rules.The rules do not change during a race.

As for having a car Judged, there should be a standard for every Vehicle. There is not one Judge on this earth that knows everything about every Mopar model built. I wonder if the Judges come prepared to the Nationals. You set up a time to be Judged at the Nationals so the Judges know what is to be Judged, but I have seen many misstakes in the far past and they have improved over the years and hopfully they will improve by having Judged all your cars.

I would say the Judges could not prepare for a Car like the one you brought to the Nationals this year. Just how many four door cars alone have they ever Judged at the Nationals.

I wonder how they would prepare for Judging if I brought a 1938 Dodge Coupe to be Judged or if a friend brought his 12 mile Viper. Just what could they find wrong with a 12 mile Viper that has be stored in a one temperature dust free garage since new. The Nationals need to release a list of the mistakes on the car being judged, how does anyone learn from their mistakes if this is not done.

Remember its their view of a mistake, and maybe there was never a mistake on the car in the first place. Its their opinion only.

Posted By: ECS

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 11/12/10 03:40 AM

Quote:

......or if a friend brought his 12 mile Viper. Just what could they find wrong with a 12 mile Viper that has be stored in a one temperature dust free garage since new.

EXCELLENT example!! The cars need to be at least 20 years old to compete in the OE competition but lets use your particular scenario. If the Viper was still in pristine "like new" condition, it should get a perfect score....right?! (Just for the record, the Valiant DID NOT deserve a perfect score.) I was told that no vehicle would EVER receive a perfect score! With a statement like that, you would have to conclude that a deduction would have to be fabricated in order for a "time capsule vehicle" to be kept from achieving a perfect score. Does that make any sense? If someone were to bring a PERFECT representation of an assembly line vehicle, what would be the reason for not giving it what it deserves? Isn't a "perfect score" the goal that all OE participants are attempting to attain? Why couldn't other cars get the same "perfect" score if they ALSO achieved that level of restoration? Why is a Perfect score considered the "end" of the line as it relates to the OE program? These cars were not open ended or infinite with regards to their original factory condition! It is NOT impossible to do a "perfect" OE restoration in modern times!

There I go asking these ridiculous questions again!

Posted By: anlauto

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 11/12/10 03:46 AM

I think the only real cut and dry deduction was for the tires...You can't expect a perfect score when two tires were made in Canada and two in the US....I don't think you could even come up with a reasonable explanation for the possibility of how that could have happened...
The rest of the deductions seem like hogwash or personal opinion of the judges...A nick in the kick panel could have been there when new?
But with a car as perfect as this one, they need to look for things that are not perfect....not look for things that are perfect...If the trim had issues, then that's a deduction etc....
THE PROBLEM I HAVE UNDERSTANDING...Are ALL the cars held to the same level of scrutiny?

Questions asked about deductions for reproduction batteries vs original batteries, or tires...those are legitimate questions....
And the simple fact the results are so vague ... well that's just bs.

Posted By: 44D6PAKCUDA

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 11/12/10 03:53 AM

Quote:

Are ALL the cars held to the same level of scrutiny?

No,I don't think so.A few years back I saw a car at the OE tent that a "famous" athlete owned and it received OE gold.There were at least 5 items under the hood alone that the novice OE guy would pick out.Maybe he scored higher it other areas to get the gold,I don't know but it sure seemed like it scored for who you were instead of what you had.

Posted By: YYZ

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 11/12/10 04:01 AM

Politics is alive and well in the car hobby and it's far from restricted to Mopars.

A late next-door neighbour was into vintage autos - specifically '20s & '30s cars such as Packards, Pierce Arrows & Rolls Royces.

He embarked on a serious restoration of a 1923 Rolls Silver Ghost - no expense spared, no detail left untouched or inaccurate, similar to Dave W's approach. He had even won awards at Concours just for the chassis, even before the rest of the car was done.

2 incidents stuck with me:

1. He was forced to break a wing window to prove that it was indeed made of tempered glass, then got deducted for the broken window at a given show.

2. At another Concours he won best in class for Rolls Royce. Sounds good, right? However, the rules of the Concours were that the winners would be removed from competition the next year and instead be placed in a winner's circle exhibit. The catch? The following year, Rolls was the featured marque and his car, which was incredible was removed from the competition by this technicality. You win, you lose.

(though there was a really cool '64 Dodge sharing the winner's circle that year...)

Posted By: ECS

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 11/12/10 05:28 AM

Quote:

...You can't expect a perfect score when two tires were made in Canada and two in the US....I don't think you could even come up with a reasonable explanation for the possibility of how that could have happened.....A nick in the kick panel could have been there when new?

The deduction on the tires had nothing to do with two being from Canada and two from the US. The ORIGINAL set of tires were a mix match! Four tires were from the US and one was from Canada. Goodyear obviously had two suppliers for the 6.95X14 Whitewall-Power Cushion tires. Do you really think that when they ordered them, they gave a hoot as to what manufacturing plant they came from? A reasonable explanation Alan? Who would conclude that when the tires were delivered to the plant, the line managers instructed the employees to separate tires based on the tiny print on the back side walls that said "made in USA" or "made in Canada"?!? It was the DATES that did not coincide! Three (not two) of them were a few months LATER than the build date of the car.

As far as the kick panels, they were pristine! I have NO IDEA where that deduction came from. I will take close up pictures of both of them for you guys to see if you can find ANY blemishes. The interior of this car was one of the more perfect aspects of the vehicle even before the components were worked on. I personally detailed EVERY interior component and can Guarantee that we NEVER would have allowed "nicks" or flaws to make it to the Show. Unlike date codes on tires, THOSE things could have been addressed or fixed.

We were also deducted for the "door glass". It was the original glass and did not have even a single hairline scratch ANYWHERE on the surface(s). They were beautiful to begin with but I had Jon Dodds spend two days buffing both sides (of each piece) to make sure that they had no inclusions whatsoever! I guarantee that they looked as good (if not better) than the day they were installed. When I showed Jon the deduction on the Judging sheet, his Jaw dropped in dis-belief! If anyone is ever in our area or city, there is an open invitation to visit and inspect the car in person. See for yourself the things that have been discussed on this forum. The only deductions/flaws we were aware of were the tires (dates), the 1971 Muffler date and a plastic wire tie! That is it.

Posted By: 68KillerBee

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 11/12/10 08:04 AM

Quote:

If anyone is ever in our area or city, there is an open invitation to visit and inspect the car in person. See for yourself the things that have been discussed on this forum. The only deductions/flaws we were aware of were the tires (dates), the 1971 Muffler date and a plastic wire tie! That is it.

Just had an eye appointment today, so I'll come see it. Don't know what I'm looking for, but I'll look.

From what I saw at the Nationals, this thing was perfect. But that is coming from me who has never took the time to look at a 4 door valiant... couldn't say if I ever even saw one at a car show before that. We all agree that the judging was screwed up, what is done is done. Hopefully they can learn from their mistakes and make everything an even playing field. No matter what, every car is different.... My dad and I looked at the 300 that was being OE judged and my dad pointed out a couple of things at just a glance that was wrong with it... Between my dad and his brothers, i'm sure they've had over half a dozen between them all. I said this before, and it was stated that they documented a lot of stuff on it and everything was how they found it. Even with that 300, it is an oddball car. You do not see them that often at all, so how can you say something is right. all i can say is you won Best of Show with a 4 door Valiant.... who would ever dream that would happen..

Just wondering why you didn't bring this to Monster Mopar Weekend?

Posted By: sixbbl69

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 11/12/10 03:32 PM

Quote:

Dave,

Again, Congratulations on a perfect restoration that apparently pushed the judges at the Nats beyond their knowledge. The only explanation for such a vague results sheet and lack of detail on the deductions is the fact they had to be grasping at straws just to create a few deductions. From what I understand the original idea behind the detail sheet was to let the car owner/restorer understand the deductions to give them a chance to correct the issues; giving the owner a chance to be judged again after a waiting period of 2-3 years. I have been involved with OE Restored cars in the past and I must say the Ford and Vette Programs do a much better job of documentation and communication with the owner concerning their cars strong and Weak points. The MoPar Nats are billed as the premier Mopar show in the world, the judging format and results information should live up to the same billing.

there is no such thing as a perfect restoration on a car.i think he needs to move on before they lock him up in the nut house.dave could start his own nationals and also be the head judge just for his cars.

Posted By: dan9

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 11/12/10 04:05 PM

Maybe they used the tires as a reason for not giving a perfect score just in case in the future someone finds a set of perfect date coded tires for theirs. I think finding them would be as elusive as a perfect score. I saw the car at the nationals also. My opinion is that although it was like new it just wasn't as eye-popping as a Daytona, Superbird etc. which is a poor way to judge a restoration.

Posted By: ECS

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 11/12/10 04:48 PM

Quote:

.....before they lock him up in the nut house.

....and where do you think I have been sending these posts from?

Posted By: ECS

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 11/12/10 04:53 PM

Quote:

Just wondering why you didn't bring this to Monster Mopar Weekend?

After reflecting on the "fun" that took place after the Nationals, I just didn't think I could take another minuet of all the enjoyment!

Posted By: SomeCarGuy

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 11/12/10 08:18 PM

Quote:

Politics is alive and well in the car hobby and it's far from restricted to Mopars.

A late next-door neighbour was into vintage autos - specifically '20s & '30s cars such as Packards, Pierce Arrows & Rolls Royces.

He embarked on a serious restoration of a 1923 Rolls Silver Ghost - no expense spared, no detail left untouched or inaccurate, similar to Dave W's approach. He had even won awards at Concours just for the chassis, even before the rest of the car was done.

2 incidents stuck with me:

1. He was forced to break a wing window to prove that it was indeed made of tempered glass, then got deducted for the broken window at a given show.

2. At another Concours he won best in class for Rolls Royce. Sounds good, right? However, the rules of the Concours were that the winners would be removed from competition the next year and instead be placed in a winner's circle exhibit. The catch? The following year, Rolls was the featured marque and his car, which was incredible was removed from the competition by this technicality. You win, you lose.

(though there was a really cool '64 Dodge sharing the winner's circle that year...)

Break a window?!
A rare one at that.
Simply out of hand.

Posted By: hemicar1971

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 11/12/10 08:43 PM

I started thinking about what I had done at work two weeks ago. I work for GM and the Camara side was down for the week for retooling for the new Buick. I walked into the Rim Room to look around and saw that the same 3 spare tire rims were still sitting on a platform. These rims have been sitting there for 6 months. I talked to the person that is the head of the Rim/Tires Assembly and we came to the conclusion that these rims should go back on the line. Now I start thinking in thirty years some guy is going to restore his 2011 Camaro and get a deduction for a spare tire rim that is 6 months out of date. It is the original rim that was put in the car in November of 2011 but the rim has a May of 2010 date code on it. I also started thinking of how the systems works. If you assemble all four rims and tires and put them on a car and one tire or rim is damaged during build and the assembly line would toss another rim and tire on the car at the end of the line. Now this tire and rim would of been built up months before and would sit at the repair station until needed. The rim and tire could sit for months, up to maybe 9 months. Now you would have 3 rims and tires with close date codes and one complete odd ball months apart from the other. This happens were I work once in a while. If the owner uses the four rims that came on his car at an OEM Meet he would be deducted for the oddball rim. This is why there should be standards so everyone could prepare and this owner could change the one rim to a closer date code so no deduction would be given.

I do not think there will every be a clear picture for all these deductions.

I have only known one vehicle that has ever scored a perfect score at any large Judging meet and that was Fawcett Motor Car of Whitby Ontario. Now there could be others. Fawcett"s deal with Model "A" and "T"s.

Posted By: SomeCarGuy

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 11/12/10 10:14 PM

You should put a notorized letter explaining the mismatched rims under the back seat of the car that gets them.

Or you could throw it in whatever car and maybe another restorer will find it in 30 years and post on the supernet that he found a unique paper in his car that doesn't match his.

Posted By: moparjohn

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 11/14/10 04:01 AM

Dave,
I have been reading your post off and on going way back before the judging at the Nats. I also had a car in the 2010 judging. I knew you and your 1970 Valiant were going to be in my OE group and laid out my best effort to compete. I am satisfied with the big picture. Your car had the highest point total and won best of show. My Daytona was listed on the results as the second highest scoring OE GOLD car. You can debate a lot of things but I think the result was correct!
Now here is where things could be improved, I too had a reproduction window sticker made from the original fender tag, original broadcast sheet and original Daytona shipment list! There were no assumptions! On my sheet under documentation was
" did extremely well except for the fact it had a reproduction window sticker". Mine had no mention of a nick? This item should be the same point deduction on both cars. I would like to know what it was in points. I also had 2 original low milage date coded tires and 3 NOS tires that were a little newer than the Daytona. In fact the one we put in the trunk still had the original GOODYEAR sticker on it! It would be interesting to compare points on this particular item! Some of this would be very usefull going forward. For example to know the point total for 5 tires lets say a total of 20 or 4 a tire. Reproductions receive 3 max and used originals 3 1/2 and NOS date code originals the max at 4. That way you would know what to do as tires became available!
My glass also suffered deductions " because of condition". I purchased a reproduction windshield through your company and had the rest of the glass polished. I don't know if the windshield was too nice or if we missed a spot on one of the pieces. It would have been better to know! If I knew it was something missed in one of the pieces I would remove it and correct it. But I really don't know? I have improved a couple of things since the Nats and will continue to do so!
Congrats on the best of show!
John

Posted By: ECS

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 11/14/10 04:46 AM

Quote:

....My Daytona was listed on the results as the second highest scoring OE GOLD car. You can debate a lot of things but I think the result was correct......In fact the one we put in the trunk still had the original GOODYEAR sticker on it!

First of all John, Congratulations on your OE results!! This years point system was actually different than the 2008 Nationals I attended. The white Challenger scored 2779.5 out of 2801 points, where the Valiant scored 2240.75 out of 2250 points. The percentage is the actual barometer for how well the car scores in the overall scheme of things. While the Challenger had a higher point total, it had a lower overall percentage. The Challenger scored 99.23% where the Valiant scored 99.59%.

As far as the trunk/spare tire John, the Valiant had no deductions. Your spare might have had a deduction due to the sticker that you mentioned. Original factory tires (including spares) never came with a sticker affixed to them. That is a tell tale sign that the tire is a service replacement. Just out of curiosity, what was the final point total for your OE Gold Daytona? Again, great job and Congratulations!

Posted By: moparjohn

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 11/15/10 01:47 AM

Dave,
The point total for the Daytona was 2197 out of 2250 possible. If the GOODYEAR sticker on the tire was a deduction I'll take it! The same for not over spraying all the components under the hood like when they were converted.
John

Posted By: ECS

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 11/15/10 02:50 AM

Quote:

.....The same for not over spraying all the components under the hood like when they were converted.

I completely understand. With the Valiant, there was a factory "flaw" in the roof of the car. It was a very slight impression that ran from the front all the way to the back. You almost couldn't see it unless you were in certain lighting and standing in just the right position. It came out with some block sanding. We could not bring ourselves to leave it the way it was. I guarantee that it would have been a deduction if we had!
The Cuda that I bought in 2005 was under the same points scale that we had this year. It scored 2204.5 out of 2250 and was "dinged" for the paint being too nice! Oh well......!

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 11/17/10 10:53 PM

Dave,

Its a shame that they do not give you the area that was deficient. I know for AACA (antique automobile club of america) judging and shows, you can only get a copy of the judging sheet if you did not get the award you were going after. They NEVER release point deductions for the areas but they will highlight the area as it is the owners responsibility to "know" their car. Now, I know AACA judging rules used to be as the car would have rolled off the assembly line but then they had to modify it to as it would have left the show room floor. Reason being, some cars, I want to say Fords, could have come with a dual quad carb'd engine. From the factory, it was quicker for the factory to install a single 4 bbl carb and intake and ship the dual quad intake and carbs in the trunk of the car and let the mechanics at the dealership install and tune the engine. Now, by AACA's previous rules for judging, the person should have to remove the dual quad, reinstall the single quad and intake and then place the new/unused intake and dual quad set up in the trunk. What fun would that be to have a dual quad car only to drive around with a single quad? This is why it was modified to be "as the car COULD have left the dealership". Meaning, runs in paint, fish eyes, things taken into consideration for mismatched parts, etc.

Now get back up on your soap box you Grinch and proclaim how your car was the biggest turd out there in the show field. (btw, I still envy the detailed work you do and the cars you have)

Hope you are doing well my friend.

Brian

Posted By: sixbbl69

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 11/18/10 12:16 AM

all the money in the world still can't buy happiness.

Posted By: anlauto

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 11/18/10 12:45 AM

Quote:

all the money in the world still can't buy happiness.

...money can't buy me love...

Posted By: ECS

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 11/18/10 02:45 AM

Quote:

all the money in the world still can't buy happiness.

I agree! It only makes it that much harder to understand why so many "happy people" live their lives trying to achieve (or chase) a higher level of un-happiness!

Posted By: JulesdaWiperman

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 11/18/10 04:38 AM

"They NEVER release point deductions for the areas but they will highlight the area as it is the owners responsibility to "know" their car."
This is a cop out in my opinion. How do we know that the judges themselves are ignorant about how things should be done?
This is an easy way for the judges to play the rules in their favor.
Money may not buy happiness but I sure wouldn't mind being a bit unhappier right now.
Jules

Posted By: anlauto

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 11/18/10 12:50 PM

Maybe money could "buy" the judges

Posted By: ECS

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 11/19/10 06:45 AM

"Buy" them what Alan!

Posted By: Morty426

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 11/19/10 05:23 PM

Quote:

"Buy" them what Alan!

Brains and a set of balls

Posted By: ECS

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 11/19/10 05:31 PM

Quote:

....My opinion is that although it was like new it just wasn't as eye-popping as a Daytona, Superbird etc....

Here is a link to the recent episode of the Valiant on MCG TV. (Chapters 4,5 and 6) You can see condition of the door glass and kick panels that were given deductions!

http://moparcollectorsguide.com/moprtv/index.php

Posted By: anlauto

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 11/19/10 11:49 PM

Dave
Have you really put "the past in the past" as far as MCG is concerned? If so...good for you ...and Rob too...As he said in the first clip..."after all this is just a hobby"...

PM me the real story

Posted By: ECS

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 11/20/10 04:33 AM

All of that is long gone in the past. As a matter of fact, Rob and I have visited a couple of times in the past year (the most recent being SEMA) and are working on our products possibly being linked together. He is a very intelligent, business-minded guy and I have a high level of respect for him and the products that he has been involved with!

Posted By: SomeCarGuy

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 11/20/10 04:51 AM

I never could figure out why he was so elusive about independent lab results on his oil. I was talking about a Blackstone 30 dollar deal or similar. I asked a half dozen times if we could see something on them and he ignored it.

He was still posting, so I know he saw the questions. Then all the sudden he pops out with a super detailed high dollar lab test, saying he had it all along. OK Rob, was it really that hard to put out there then?

Then seeing how he got involved in the Charlie vs. Jeff thing by putting crap on the cover of his mag, I would have to think twice about getting tangled with him. Not that anybody cares what I think.

Posted By: JulesdaWiperman

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 11/22/10 03:53 PM

So Dave , does this mean that we will never really know what these phantom deductions were?
Jules

Posted By: ECS

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 11/22/10 08:48 PM

The one thing that I have learned with all of "this" is that politics are not a topic limited to people in Washington DC! As all the dust settles....I now realize that I am the bad guy! Forget the mistake(s) that were made with the Judging! Forget the facts that were presented to everyone after the Show! Forget all the photos and documented details that surrounded the project! In the end it is ME that was to blame. Shoot the messenger! How dare that I expose any shortcomings or misconceptions related to the Judging process!!! It isn't about doing the right thing! It is all about "reputation" and what people think. Prior to me showing the documented facts concerning the Power Steering Fluid, they were just fine with everyone thinking that WE had screwed up in that particular area. Once I informed them of their mistake, it was time to conceal and keep it under cover!! It was fine for everyone to think that WE had messed up but once the shoe was on the other foot.....well....read it for yourself. Here was the email response I received after I had uncovered the error. (Sssshhhh.....keep it quiet!!)

"Thats why Dave we need to do our research on all disputed items before we start telling things to other people it is easier to keep pandora in her box rather then trying to put her back."

Posted By: JulesdaWiperman

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 11/22/10 09:07 PM

Posted By: ECS

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 11/25/10 06:31 AM

Quote:

So Dave , does this mean that we will never really know what these phantom deductions were?
Jules

Not to deviate too far from the subject but I have "fixed" the few things that were deducted on the Challenger and it would probably score higher than the Valiant at this point. The car missed 17 points for oil on the bare metal components and 4.5 points on some minor flaws that have since been fixed. As soon as I have completely transformed the oil covered parts with the RPM dry preservative, I would think that it would get very-very-very close to a perfect score. (Based on the Judging sheet that I was given in 2008.) I wonder how it would do if I re-entered it in the OE circuit? Would there be things that were suddenly "overlooked" the first time in order to keep it from getting a perfect or almost perfect score?

HAVE A SAFE AND HAPPY THANKSGIVING EVERYONE!!!!

Posted By: LimeliteAero

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 11/25/10 12:43 PM

Quote:

I wonder how it would do if I re-entered it in the OE circuit? Would there be things that were suddenly "overlooked" the first time in order to keep it from getting a perfect or almost perfect score?

HAVE A SAFE AND HAPPY THANKSGIVING EVERYONE!!!!

First of all Happy Thanksgiving to you and yours as well!

Do you really believe that there wouldnt be items discovered to be "wrong" that were not scored properly the previous judging? theyre going to blame better informed judges this time....or some other fabricated excuse. You really need to understand what it is that you have done and forget that circus.
initiate your own new class of judging better restored cars? I guess thats a little too complicated but just forget the whoel OE Gold because you hit the HOME RUN with the Valiant .

Posted By: anlauto

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 11/25/10 12:59 PM

I'm sure the judging has evolved quite a bit since 2008...The judges learn something new every year as the level of restoration goes up....
I'm certain, by today's standards there are cars that won Gold five years ago that would most likely only achieve Silver today

Posted By: FJ5_Fish

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 11/25/10 04:29 PM

Maybe.

The Vette judges will actually show you everything while they are judging. This is a good thing....It helps everyone improve. Of course Vettes don't deviate from the engineering drawings anywhere (if at all!) near as much as our beloved Mopars.

I also like their points system a million times more than the current OE gold system.....way more points avaulable to loose and to gain. A similar points system was in place at the Carlisle CSO judging that Gibson and other knowledgeable folks were running years ago.

Posted By: ECS

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 11/25/10 07:21 PM

Quote:

I'm sure the judging has evolved quite a bit since 2008...

It is not the "judging" that has evolved, it is the Cars! A factory OE vehicle IS what it IS. That aspect has never changed! As a hobby we have been chasing the ability to to accomplish a restoration that truly represents what rolled out of the Factory 40+ years ago. I guarantee that the Challenger and the Valiant would still have the same level of factory correctness 20 years from now if they were Judged again. Their correctness will not become obsolete with respect to what they represent! One of my goals was to restore a car where no one could ever say, "Remember how we thought the that Challenger and Valiant was a correct OE restoration? Look at how much better these OE cars are NOW!" The History of how these cars were built will never change. It is not an infinite or open ended quest. They were manufactured with a particular "look" and a restorer either replicates that "look" or they don't! I personally wanted those two cars to be representative of a Factory correct vehicle no matter when they were scrutinized or Judged. History never changes! A person's understanding or awareness of it (history) is the weak link as it relates to the reality of things. "Correct" will still be correct 50 years from now.

Posted By: FJ5_Fish

Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals. - 11/25/10 08:48 PM

Dave - It's Canadian day on here - Go enjoy your Thanksgiving!
Jim B.

OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals.