who owns the lowest milage A12 car.

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This post got me thinking too.Will it ever end? Restoration related,not really

Dan, yeah but since the merge of the two forums I'm going to play the card that Tom gave us, remember it's not the "Mopart Restoration Forum" but the "Moparts Restoration & A12 Forum" so shouldn't A12 subjects be okay?

MikeR

Guess not!!

Yeah I saw that Jim and it got me a little I was thinking that we would be given just a little flex or wiggle for how long the A12 Restoration Forum was around and then merged with the 1-year old Moparts Restoration Forum, but I guess I was wrong More hand writing on the wall IMO. I think the members that were active on the long running A12 Forum (not just A12 owners) have provided more restoration, technique and technical information than they have taken or asked for. I was hoping there would be a little longer leniency period in the A12 post subjects, especially when you read the new forum title �Moparts Restoration & A12 Forum� and how the merge came about. It�s not the first time I�ve been wrong. Maybe it�s best if they just got rid of the �& A12 Forum� and be done with it, I�m sure there would be a lot of very happy members.

MikeR

Mike, we can certainly see where this is all going. It looks like a one way road to no where.

It was bad enough that the A12 Forum was taken away with virtually no advance warning or explanation, but then it seems that there are no guidelines as to what we can and cannot post on this new A12 forum.

As you so correctly pointed out, the A12 members certainly gave more than they took and its really sad to see that most of these very knowledgable enthusiasts have skipped town.

There's only a few of us old soldiers left to guard the fort.

Posted By: A12

Re: who owns the lowest milage A12 car. - 11/07/07 05:18 AM

James, no problem, enjoyed the story just got a little confused with the low mile engine change, but we all know how cars that were driven like these ended up with changed motors

On that note, another story not about an A12 Bee but a low mile Hemi Bee (no ground too sacred here).

This Hemi Super Bee when I first saw it at a local Dairy Queen Saturday evening cruise (driven there) had what I thought was 106,800 miles on it but looked in way to good of shape. When the owner's friend asked me what I thought about the car (I knew how to read a fender tag and knew it was a legit original Hemi Bee from all of the telltails) I said "It's in really good shape having 106,800 miles on it" and he said "No that's 6,800 miles put on a quarter of a mile at a time"

. His friend was the second owner, the original owner bought it new to race back in '69 and that's all it did for about 6,800 miles. I wonder if the speedo cable forgot to be re-attached at one time too, no real need for it when you have a tach and a track that will let you know how fast you went

MikeR

Attached picture 3935596-HemiBee6800milesrs.jpg

Posted By: mymcodebee

Re: who owns the lowest milage A12 car. - 11/07/07 01:03 PM

I have not gotten into the details of my old car very much except for showing you guys the pics of it coming out of the barn. Let me just say this car would have been a very long post and debate. The cars exterior was as impressive as the interior. Similiar to Kidsixpacks' car prior to his resto. The owner lived in Ct. and left the car up here at his parents house in Maine to drag race it at a local track. I never really got into the mileage thing as I could not prove or disprove it. There are many pros and cons to support it that we could bat around. (Maybe on another post as to not hijack this one).
I filmed every inch of this car with my video camera before I sold it. "The first time"
The car still has an inspection sticker showing 1877 miles in 1977. Any idea if the mechanic would or should have put actual mileage or what was showing. Car was sold out of CHORCHES Dodge in Conn. I tried everything to talk to the actual owner instead of the parents and it just was not happening. I was always on the fence with the mileage but just wanted to point out that there could be another low mileage bee out there but will not ever be documented.

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: who owns the lowest milage A12 car. - 11/07/07 08:58 PM

Hey Reid, that is one cool car you owned. From what it looks like to me, that was a low mileage original car.

In the last day I had a conversation with a fellow out of Tennessee who I had originally talked to a couple of months back. He called me out of the blue a couple of months ago when he heard my car was for sale and said he had an original A12 Runner.

I made contact with Larry again and told him that I will be down his way in the next couple of months and told him I would like to see his car. He said great, come on by and he would show me his 3400 mile A12 Runner that he bought new. He gave me his VIN and says he titled the car on September 19, 1969 and still has the original keys.

The car is an automatic on the column and also is a bench seat coupe.

Apparently someone from Quebec heard about the car and came down and layed a whole bunch of cash on the hood of the car but a deal was not made.

I am looking forward to meeting Larry and seeing his car. Will keep you posted on what I find.

Posted By: Fasbird

Re: who owns the lowest milage A12 car. - 11/07/07 10:10 PM

I'm still waiting for someone to lay cash on my hood......

I guess advertising would help?

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: who owns the lowest milage A12 car. - 11/07/07 10:48 PM

Gary, you have a very nice car and I think it would do real well at BJ or Russo and Steele.

I will even keep it shined up for you all week for free, although I would have to break for Happy Hour from 5 till 9.

Posted By: Fasbird

Re: who owns the lowest milage A12 car. - 11/07/07 11:01 PM

Harry, you can take my car for a spin anytime you want

Hey O/T for a second. Are you still moving south?

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: who owns the lowest milage A12 car. - 11/07/07 11:35 PM

Gary, I am looking forward to going back to South Carolina to be with some of my best friends.

We will head out sometime in the first quarter of 2008 and looking forward to taking the Runner with me. My wife finally talked some sense into me as far as not letting the Runner go.

Good thing I have a smart and understanding wife, because her mate is not too bright sometimes.

Good luck with your car!!!

Attached picture 3937014-RoadRunner00160%.JPG

Posted By: mymcodebee

Re: who owns the lowest milage A12 car. - 11/08/07 02:15 AM

Good Choice Harry, hold on to that one.
I made that mistake already.

Don't forget to take you camera when you stop in to see the low mileage runner if it is OK with the owner.

Posted By: gtsuperbee

Re: who owns the lowest milage A12 car. - 11/08/07 03:35 AM

Not crazy low mileage (22,000). But here is a pic of my survivor 383 bee my dad bought new in 69. It was featured in Mopar Collector's Guide Aug 2005.

Attached picture 3937655-DSC02189.JPG

Posted By: moparmojo

Re: who owns the lowest milage A12 car. - 11/08/07 04:31 AM

Ok, since we are all talking about this, how does one go and prove a car has such low mileage. In this day and age where every joe blow can send a gauge cluster out to be redone. How is it possible to prove low miles. Seems more and more of these ultra low mile cars keep popping up. I just sometimes find them hard to believe. Heck I don't even know anyone that has a recent new car with very low miles that isn't being driven everyday.

Posted By: gtsuperbee

Re: who owns the lowest milage A12 car. - 11/08/07 04:35 AM

I also have a 1929 model A replica (built by shay in 1979 available through ford dealerships). It has only 803 miles and has never been registered. Still a new car essentially. Also for sale by the way.

Posted By: RoadRunnerJD

Re: who owns the lowest milage A12 car. - 11/08/07 04:41 AM

I bought one in 1972 with 9100 miles on it and sold it in 1995 with 24000 miles on it. I had inspection sticker receipts for every 6 months to show what the mileage was when it was inspected. The guy I bought it from had inspection receipts from day one. There are ways to prove the mileage. On my current one, it had 7481 miles on it when I bought it in 1995 and it had a 1981 inspection sticker on the windshield. The interior would not indicate every day use. I cannot certify that it's original milage but it's not hard to tell that it was a low mileage original.

Posted By: HPMike

Re: who owns the lowest milage A12 car. - 11/08/07 06:39 AM

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Ok, since we are all talking about this, how does one go and prove a car has such low mileage. In this day and age where every joe blow can send a gauge cluster out to be redone. How is it possible to prove low miles. Seems more and more of these ultra low mile cars keep popping up. I just sometimes find them hard to believe. Heck I don't even know anyone that has a recent new car with very low miles that isn't being driven everyday.

You are correct, it's very hard to prove in some cases.

And then there are some really legit low mile cars, but due to poor storage conditions, look like they have a million miles on them and need a total resto. No one really knows for sure, but there are some clues that will tell you whether or not what you are seeing is truly legit. I have two low mile hemi cars that are completely different. The Challenger (2800 miles) has every original part on it, still smells new inside, and there are numerous items that tell you that this car's mileage is correct. The Coronet(7,000 miles), was unfortunately kept in a poor fashion, and needed a full restoration. I would imagine if it not for the fact that the last time the car was registered was 1969(it's a 66), no one would be inclined to believe it. Both cars were ex drag cars.

Posted By: mymcodebee

Re: who owns the lowest milage A12 car. - 11/08/07 02:12 PM

Good Point Mike this is where my old A12 sat for nearly 20 years. Right beside one of the open windows. I actually had to brush snow off the piece of plastic covering the car when I first found it. As well as remove an old wooden rocking chair off the hood that was holding down the plastic.

This pic was taken three years later as I prayed no one else would find it before they were ready to sell.

Attached picture 3938273-superbee5.jpg

Posted By: mymcodebee

Re: who owns the lowest milage A12 car. - 11/08/07 02:13 PM

Most of the A12 guys have seen this but here it is anyway inside the barn.

Attached picture 3938275-Superbee1.jpg

Posted By: mymcodebee

Re: who owns the lowest milage A12 car. - 11/08/07 02:20 PM

And after moving two cougars and an old coupe its heading home.

Attached picture 3938293-superbee3.jpg

Posted By: Fasbird

Re: who owns the lowest milage A12 car. - 11/08/07 04:14 PM

These are great points. My car (A12) has the cleanest frames and floorpans you can imagine. The odo' showed 37K miles on it when I purchased. The 2000 AZ state emissions inspection sticker shows the car at 37K. I would believe that mileage compared to actual body condition. BUT... I have no way to actually "prove it". BTW, I just turned over 39K+ this summer. "Is it real, or is it Memorex".....

Posted By: Kirby

Re: who owns the lowest milage A12 car. - 11/08/07 04:38 PM

My A-12 Bee had 6,616 miles showing on the OD. Pedals had little wear, window felts are perfect, lots of things that would make someone believe it was original miles. However, my car got swatted in the front a LONG time ago and sat- so it needed a full resto. Motor/tranny believed to be removed when the car was damaged. It was raced in Oklahoma- but no one seems to remember it. Tried a title search in OK- came up empty- that was the end of the line as far as trying to find anything out about my car. Only rust was a small hole under drivers feet- and a bit of rust on the bottom of the quarters- poor storage damage- I think. Every spot weld is beautiful- and only a couple pits in the trunk. These cars rusted way to easily for it to be 106,616- but I suppose the speedo could have been unhooked too. My car was by no means a survivor- it needed it all- but still some signs that it may have had low miles.Tking her out for the last run tonight- before the snow flies-

Posted By: Alaska_A12

Re: who owns the lowest milage A12 car. - 11/08/07 05:55 PM

My car had 1291 on the odo when I bought it. Course that was an odo set to zero when the car was restored by an owner three before me. Word was it had 55,000 on the odo at restore but who knows what's real when the car had more owners than a lady of the night has dates.

If the car was sold origianlly in Idaho then I am the 17th owner.

Hey!! Maybe I should start a "who has the A12 with most previous owners thread".

BTW, odo read 4,244 when I put her to sleep for this winter.

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: who owns the lowest milage A12 car. - 11/08/07 06:12 PM

Here is a couple of lower mileage A12 cars from the prairies.

The Runner has around 39,000 miles and was bought off the original owner back in the early seventies. This car was sold new in Saskatchewan. This car still runs 2 original Goodyears on it.

The Bee has 46,000 miles and was sold new in Alberta. Both owners are very good guys.

Both cars are bench 4 speed coupes with the Runner having all original power train and the Bee lost its power train early in life.

Attached picture 3938740-A12SaskatchewanCars95%#3.JPG

Posted By: 6bblgt

Re: who owns the lowest milage A12 car. - 11/08/07 06:38 PM

I was looking for the article, but can't locate it.
..... there is the "Grotheer" A12 Road Runner, what was the mileage on that when it was in MCG a few years ago?

Posted By: A12

Re: who owns the lowest milage A12 car. - 11/08/07 06:48 PM

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I was looking for the article, but can't locate it.
..... there is the "Grotheer" A12 Road Runner, what was the mileage on that when it was in MCG a few years ago?

Seems to be a pattern here with low milage and and cars that were raced

Don't need no stinkin speedo needle distraction while you're looking at a tach and

Posted By: Dave Watt

Re: who owns the lowest milage A12 car. - 11/08/07 06:53 PM

Sweet photo Harry, I like the orange car for some reason.

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: who owns the lowest milage A12 car. - 11/08/07 07:51 PM

Dave, that car is a twin to yours.

This is the car that got caught by the new owner as the local workers were doing burnouts in the parking lot of the Chrysler Headquarters in Windsor as he was arriving to pick up his brand new and untouched A12 Road Runner.

The original owner had left the prairies to pick up his car in May of '69 and arrived a day early to pickup his car at the Chrysler Headquarters.

Apparently he saw what was going on in the parking lot, but didn't think much of it until he later found out that was his car the local boys were pounding on in the parking lot.

The story goes that things got pretty heated between the new owner and the Headquarters and some compromises were made and the car was then driven back by the new owner to the prairies some 1500 miles.

To my knowledge he still runs original Goodyears on the rear, but is not taken out often. The owner had so much foresight on buying NOS parts for Mopars back in the seventies that he has enough original parts that he is building a clone. I have seen his many of his NOS parts, along with carbs, air cleaner assembly, hood, rads etc. and the list goes on. A nice guy on top of that as well.

Posted By: Kidsixpack

Re: who owns the lowest milage A12 car. - 11/09/07 12:20 AM

I think that you really and truely know if a car has 6K or 106K! I think that some people may want to believe that their car may be ultra low miles! With A12 car in particular I think that there is a good chance that there are a lot of low mile cars out there. They were raced, they were abused and broken in their ealy lives. You must remember the average 18-19 year old that bought these cars new bought them to beat the snot out of and usually did! They (A12's) were not so highly prized when new! Most of the original owners that I have spoken with did race their A12 when it was new, but most also had a second car. So I believe that A12's by nature were not generally daily drivers, but toys. Not all of coarse! I think that the only way (other than obvious condition) to verify a low mileage car is to speak to previous owners if at all possible. I did that when I purchased my car in 93. The condition of the car indicated that 44K was original and speaking to the owners and doing a title search ended with my belief that it was.
KIDSIXPACK
My Name is Steve and I like Bees!

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: who owns the lowest milage A12 car. - 11/09/07 01:07 AM

Steve, I think you are bang on. The ultra low mileage cars usually have some history to them that can be traced or verified.

Real low mileage cars are easier to determine than a 50,000 mile car IMO. The real low mile cars usually tend to have very few owners and in many cases have some very good paperwork.

A good example of great background and history is the Bee found I believe in Michigan last year. That might not have been typical, but not unusual.

The Runner with supposedly 3400 miles that I am going to look at in Tennessee in the next few months apparently has the original title, keys and broadcast sheet.

Back in the ninties I had a '68 RS/SS L78 Camaro with only 28,000 miles on it which isn't real low mileage, but still good. It only had 2 owners before me and each owner passed along the bill of sale, title, original keys, protecto plate etc. and I think that happens a lot with low mile cars.

Posted By: RoadRunnerJD

Re: who owns the lowest milage A12 car. - 11/09/07 02:35 AM

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Steve, I think you are bang on. The ultra low mileage cars usually have some history to them that can be traced or verified.

Real low mileage cars are easier to determine than a 50,000 mile car IMO. The real low mile cars usually tend to have very few owners and in many cases have some very good paperwork.

A good example of great background and history is the Bee found I believe in Michigan last year. That might not have been typical, but not unusual.

The Runner with supposedly 3400 miles that I am going to look at in Tennessee in the next few months apparently has the original title, keys and broadcast sheet.

Back in the ninties I had a '68 RS/SS L78 Camaro with only 28,000 miles on it which isn't real low mileage, but still good. It only had 2 owners before me and each owner passed along the bill of sale, title, original keys, protecto plate etc. and I think that happens a lot with low mile cars.

I don't think original keys, protecto plates and bill of sales will certify a low mileage car but the owners testimony and any verification by others that know the car along with inspection or other receipts would help. Your own inspection and discovery would then be enough to self-certify the mileage when you register a new title in your name. The lower the mileage the less proof or evidence will be available. There's very few cars out there with 38 years of documentation! At some point with many of these low mileage cars, good judgement and honesty has to be involved.

Posted By: His and Her 69's

Re: who owns the lowest milage A12 car. - 11/09/07 03:43 AM

Also how about project 6 pack, how many miles does that RR have.
I will see if I have the mag that the Grotheer A12 is in.
That is only if the photo guy doesn't get to it first, right Mike???

Posted By: A12

Re: who owns the lowest milage A12 car. - 11/09/07 04:07 AM

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Also how about project 6 pack, how many miles does that RR have.
I will see if I have the mag that the Grotheer A12 is in.
That is only if the photo guy doesn't get to it first, right Mike???

David,......Project Six Pack "appears" to have 12,600+ on it, you better find that Grotheer photo/story quick, I'm closing in on it

MikeR

Attached picture 3940254-ProjectSixPackodo.jpg

Posted By: gtsuperbee

Re: who owns the lowest milage A12 car. - 11/09/07 04:14 AM

That's the same steering wheel I have in my coronet deluxe. Didn't know you could get it in a chicken.

Posted By: A12

Re: who owns the lowest milage A12 car. - 11/09/07 04:20 AM

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Quote:

Also how about project 6 pack, how many miles does that RR have.
I will see if I have the mag that the Grotheer A12 is in.
That is only if the photo guy doesn't get to it first, right Mike???

David,......Project Six Pack "appears" to have 12,600+ on it, you better find that Grotheer photo/story quick, I'm closing in on it

MikeR

David, getting closer...........

Attached picture 3940291-DonGrotheersA12RR100005.jpg

Posted By: A12

Re: who owns the lowest milage A12 car. - 11/09/07 04:24 AM

Hey look it's Don's Un---------------------------Bent

Lynch Road Fender Tag....ooops getting side tracked there David, and besides that's another thread.....later

MikeR

Attached picture 3940298-DonGrotheersA12RR100004.jpg

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: who owns the lowest milage A12 car. - 11/09/07 04:52 AM

JD, maybe reread my post.

"The real low mile cars usually tend to have very few owners and in many cases have some very good paperwork."

The key information here is the paperwork. I have owned a number of cars that have had a lot of paperwork and that includes everything from an owners manuals with recorded service work to oil changes, tuneups, brake work, exhaust work as so on. Each piece of paperwork usually indicates the date and the mileage on the car.

In the case of my '69 SC/Rambler, I not only have all the original paperwork including the bill of sale, certicard and owners manual, but all the receipts for work done during its life which indicate dates and mileages. In the case of my Runner, I have documentation showing the mileage back some 25 years.

Having been around these cars probably as long as you, I would suggest that having all the original paperwork for a car along with other documentation would indicate that the previous owner/owners kept well documented records of dates and mileages for the car.

Certainly original keys, protecto plates and bills of sale don't document anything, but they do indicate that the owner probably has a lot more additional backup information to do that. I have had cars with all the original keys, brochures, documentation and so on, but along with that, all the service records.

To suggest "that the lower the mileage the less proof or evidence will be available", what do you base that on? I would rather deal with one or two owners on a low mileage car than 15 owners of a higher mileage car.

As far as self certifying a cars mileage from your own inspection and discovery to register a new title in your name, that may work for the state or provincial government body, but certainly wouldn't carry any weight when it comes
authenticating a cars mileage.

Inspections or service receipts with dates and mileages are as good as it gets for me.

Posted By: RoadRunnerJD

Re: who owns the lowest milage A12 car. - 11/09/07 04:56 AM

Posted By: His and Her 69's

Re: who owns the lowest milage A12 car. - 11/09/07 05:46 AM

Mike, I know you're UNBEATABLE when it comes to pictures and stuff so I didn't even try. I am at work so I would not have found the article till 8am anyways.
I just wanted to test your skills out and see how fast you could find it.

p.s. is that trunk splatter paint on that unbent fender tag??? (Looks like white overspray)
Later David

Posted By: Dave Watt

Re: who owns the lowest milage A12 car. - 11/09/07 12:19 PM

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That's the same steering wheel I have in my coronet deluxe. Didn't know you could get it in a chicken.

Yes, it's the standard steering wheel with the Medium grade bench seat interior.

Attached picture 3940600-RoadRunner208.JPG

Posted By: Kirby

Re: who owns the lowest milage A12 car. - 11/09/07 03:21 PM

My car did come with a title transferred to MN in 1986. The mileage showing then was 3000. Still not enough proof for me- but my car was flipped- and on of the guys before me has fallen off the face of the earth. I gotta believe that back in the day quite a few of these cars were damaged- stripped of their power train and sat for a quite a while- and probably not in the best storage conditions. So a low mileage car- could get pretty ratty looking quickly.

Posted By: dstryr

Re: who owns the lowest milage A12 car. - 11/09/07 03:37 PM

with Kirby. I've had several GTOs that fit the beat-on and left to die description.

The owner who had my RR from '76 to '02 told me he picked the car up from in front of a salvage yard while it sat waiting to be parted. It was pretty rough when I bought it though it still has its orginal drivetrain.

There's not a lot of history on my car but there is an oil change sticker from '92 or '94 that shows 48k miles. I picked it up in Nov. '02 with 52890, shows 58XXX now.

Posted By: moparmojo

Re: who owns the lowest milage A12 car. - 11/10/07 06:21 AM

I don't know. I guess this post just got me thinking. I never really thought about it, my 1970 Challenger Convertible had like 58,000 miles on it when I got it. I really know nothing of the original history of the car. So now I wonder, is that original or not. I would say not, the condition of the car was poor. But again, like I was saying before, who's to say. I could see if you are the second owner and you bought the car back in say early 72 or something. You could be assured the mileage is probably correct. But even I know of people might play with the odometer or pull the speedo cable. (my brother has actually done that.) But other then honest to goodness hard proof. It is a toss up. We are just going off the word of the guy before us. Who's to say a guy doesn't pull the speedo cable every six months and only track half the mileage. I guess the only certaintee is being the owner of a car since new. I would take most people at their word, but again, so many cars with so low mileage always popping up makes me wonder. Sure a low mileage pulled from the junk yard and restored...does that really mean anything.Not sure. One owner may tell the next owner, he is unsure if the mileage is original or not and the next time the new owner goes to resell it what do you think he will say? He will certainly say, it's original and from his view point, is he lying ??? just food for thought.

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: who owns the lowest milage A12 car. - 11/10/07 12:28 PM

This post got me thinking too.Will it ever end? Restoration related,not really

Posted By: A12

Re: who owns the lowest milage A12 car. - 11/10/07 06:13 PM

Quote:

This post got me thinking too.Will it ever end? Restoration related,not really

Dan, yeah but since the merge of the two forums I'm going to play the card that Tom gave us, remember it's not the "Mopart Restoration Forum" but the "Moparts Restoration & A12 Forum" so shouldn't A12 subjects be okay? I think if we keep it somewhat within the Restoration realm and not stray too far we may be okay. How to tell if an unrestored car's odo matches the condition of the car is kind of interesting in a way.

I think stand alone A12 subjects should be considered okay as long as we all get along during this merge period IMO. If there's no replys then it just goes away. Must be some others that are interested in the

MikeR

Attached picture 3943440-DSC01023110MPH68RR.jpg

Posted By: 62maxwgn

Re: who owns the lowest milage A12 car. - 11/10/07 06:57 PM

Quote:

Quote:

This post got me thinking too.Will it ever end? Restoration related,not really

Must be some others that are interested in the

MikeR

I'm in!

Posted By: Alaska_A12

Re: who owns the lowest milage A12 car. - 11/10/07 07:00 PM

Quote:

Must be some others that are interested in the

MikeR

And here I thought the

was put on here for Tem all along. Guess not!!

Posted By: Fasbird

Re: who owns the lowest milage A12 car. - 11/10/07 08:15 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Must be some others that are interested in the

MikeR

And here I thought the was put on here for Tem all along. Guess not!!

Yeah, where the heck has Nekid been? And I thought I was the guy not posting much...

who owns the lowest milage A12 car.