Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea?

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/27/10 07:01 PM

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maybe moparts should delete all threads that have to do with this kind of broadcast sheet discussion.

Nobody deleted anything. The threads are still there for everyone to see.

They were locked because they turned into personal insult bashfests.

Posted By: a12superbee

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/27/10 07:35 PM

The thinking is flawed if anyone believes that if ECS doesn't print them then nobody will.
If one guy can do them and admits it, then 10 other guys can too and they just haven't said so.
Once the cat's out of the bag......

No way is anyone on this board going to stop the freight train and the best recourse is education on how to spot the repops from the real ones. Just like is done with every other repop part that comes along.

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/27/10 07:46 PM

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Dave can you not just vote on the pole....

(I think you meant "poll")

Of course I could have chosen to only cast my "vote" on this Poll. Just like you however, I also decided to comment on the subject matter at hand. Oh yes, I almost forgot..... I mentioned earlier about starting a Poll on the subject of "HYPOCRISY"! I assume you will posting on that thread too......right?

Posted By: MOPARMIKE69

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/27/10 07:46 PM

Quote:

The thinking is flawed if anyone believes that if ECS doesn't print them then nobody will.
If one guy can do them and admits it, then 10 other guys can too and they just haven't said so.
Once the cat's out of the bag......

No way is anyone on this board going to stop the freight train and the best recourse is education on how to spot the repops from the real ones. Just like is done with every other repop part that comes along.

Somebody already does make them. In fact "somebodies" already make them.

Posted By: Alaskan_TA

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/27/10 08:01 PM

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Since this "poll" is basically about my company I want to ONCE AGAIN make something PERFECTLY CLEAR!!! I don't know why some of you can't seem to understand or ignore the fact that MY COMPANY IS NOT SELLING OR WILL EVER SELL UNLICENSED, ILLEGAL, BOOTLEGGED PRODUCTS!

I have not seen anyone dispute the legality.

I have also not seen anyone dispute that Chrysler would issue licensing for them either.

There are some of us that think making them is a bad idea, it has nothing to do with legality.

Posted By: a12superbee

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/27/10 08:11 PM

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Somebody already does make them. In fact "somebodies" already make them.

Right, that's my point. Brow beating ECS for doing them sure isn't going to stop the others from doing it.
Again, knowing how to spot the differences is going to be the only defense against them.

Posted By: mr_belvedere

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/27/10 08:39 PM

Choosing an answer to poll questions is impossible without knowing who would be making the sheets.

As many of us are aware, there have been bogus broadcast sheets made up in the past and will likely continue. I am totally against a repro sheet in these regards.

Dave W. has the integrity to do these the right way, if they are to be done. And since he is licensed from Chrysler to make the broadcast sheets, along with his criteria for a customer to obtain a sheet, I could see the sheets as more of a 'reissue' than a reproduction.
At the bottom of the sheet in the 'remarks' area could be typed 'ECS REISSUE'

Posted By: biginchmotor

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/27/10 09:31 PM

Anyone see this? E bay item # 360248636490. Just curious, John.

Posted By: Crunchy_Frog

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/27/10 10:14 PM

Quote:

Anyone see this? E bay item # 360248636490. Just curious, John.

$25 for something they printed from the tech archive here?

I would be more concerned with this one # 350338149583

Posted By: gomangoRTSE

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/27/10 10:24 PM

As for being licensed by Chrysler, that does not mean it is ethical to reproduce a broadcast sheet, it only means Chrysler has given you their rights to produce something that they did in the past without having to worry about being sued by Chrysler.
___________________________________________
Then to use "your" logic, Chrylser by showing willingness to licence a broadcast sheet under conditions is either directly or indirectly acting unethically.

The poll isnt neutral based in its wording. Not at all. One can only read the questions to know the poster feels on the subject. That is readily apparant. Reword in a more neutral way then allow the people to vote on it.

1. Should an authorized Chrysler distributor who has been provided legitmate documentation of the original buildsheet be allowed to reproduce that buildsheet, or that buildsheet showing a watermark that determines its reproduction status.

There are alot better ways to neutralize these questions besides wording in a way to get a predetermined answer.

Thats like asking should a person who is convicted of a crime serve jail time. That question is worded to elicit a simple answer YES!

The more informative questionaire would ask.
1. What kind of crime?
2. What was the severity of the crime?
3. Was it under extreme durress?
4. Was it a first time offense?
5. Was it a simple misdomeanor?

What I am saying is the original question of "Should a person convicted of a crime serve jail time?" is simply directed to elicit the answer of yes.

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/27/10 10:29 PM

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....And since he is licensed from Chrysler to make the broadcast sheets, along with his criteria for a customer to obtain a sheet, I could see the sheets as more of a 'reissue' than a reproduction.

Thanks for your post Mark but keep in mind that we are NOT actually licensed to sell these. I want to take the time at this point to explain a few things that pertain to this subject. I also want to address the last post that Barry issued. (For the record, I think very highly of Barry and what he does. We have our differences sometimes but I would help him or anyone else to stop impropriety in our hobby.)

After I made these I approached Chrysler with the idea of offering them as a novelty item. They received EVERYTHING that I had made and said that they could be approved if we would agree on how to keep things in check. They told me to think about a way to do this and submit my ideas for final approval. During that time Dave S. and I talked further about this and decided it would not be good for the hobby. Now lets go back to the year 2002.

In 2002 there were very few people that knew about our company. The first two guys to reach out to me and introduce themselves were Dave Wise and Daniel Banker. I became good friends with these guys. A short time later I met Roger Gibson and he asked if I would consider trying to make accurate VIN decals. (After months of development we came up with the product that many of you guys have purchased over the past few years.) I submitted those items to Chrysler for licensing and they were approved. The first person to actually know about them being for sale was Steve Klein at the 2003 Nationals. I remember how excited he was to see "a closed 4" in the VIN number! One of the first guys to buy a VIN decal was Daniel Banker. He was so pleased with it that he posted pictures of it here on Moparts. The next day I couldn't believe all the calls I had people wanting to buy one BUT a separate group of guys desperately tried to have them taken off the market. What ensued was a ridiculous mess. Chrysler told me that the "guru" tried to have my VIN license stripped because he was concerned about the safety of the industry. He said that my decals would open things up for fraud and the hobby would be ruined! He tried 3 times to have my licensing revoked! Needless to say, we have a very close and solid relationship with Chrysler today!

Well here we are in 2010 and guess what? It didn't ruin the value of your beloved cars and ECS has ALWAYS kept air tight documentation from day one. Many of you who were actually opposed the VINs and feel the same about THIS scenario, ended up purchasing MULTIPLE VIN decals from my company! Go check out the testimonial from Chrysler on our website (www.ecsvin.com - under Vital Info.) It states that: "ECS Automotive Concepts complies with the stringent requirements established by Chrysler for proper verification, record keeping and continuing audit as it relates to the production of replacement VIN Certification decals." THAT IS HOW WE DO EVERYTHING IN OUR COMPANY! I have no intentions of marketing these sheets illegally. If they were to be available (again...no plans to ever do so) I can assure everyone that there would NEVER be any shady practices related whatsoever. I can assure everyone reading this that ECS is above compromising our standards for something that is as insignificance as these reproduction Build-sheets. Please stop worrying about all of this! The only thing that has changed is your guys awareness of it. I had these seven years ago! Prior to last week how many of you felt that our hobby was in "danger" because of this? Did any of you turn your back on Christmas when you learned the reality of Santa Claus and his Elves? Nothing has changed!

DW

Posted By: CurYellowBird

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/27/10 10:57 PM

The problem is it is up to the owner whether they want a BCS reproduced or not. I have scraps of mine left after the mouse got to it, but luckily the serial number is still legible along with other codes that match. In that case, I myself would like to have one reproduced because my car is numbers matching and original.

If you cannot prove the options the car came with, numbers don't match up on the drivetrain, and other things, then that person should NOT be able to reproduce a BCS, unless they disclose that the car is not original and the BCS repro is clearly labeled as a fake.

The big problem is that it is hard to completely prove the identity of a said car. I know one guy who had a completely rotted original 69' GTS Dart and a perfectly clean 69' Dart GT. He decided to swap the vin, fender tag, and all other numbers onto the Dart GT. In that case, it would be extremely hard to tell the difference as the base line dart body is identical to the GTS.

There will always be some sort of fraud involved in the hobby and misrepresentation. The smart buyer and car nut would research and become informed on such topics as this and would be able to tell the difference. Case and point, a guy on craigslist down here in Texas claiming that his 74' Roadrunner is original with the numbers matching 383 and 4 speed. Hmmm most of us know that 383's had stopped being built in 71' and it would have been a 400. At that point, maybe the owner was confused about what he had or he was actually trying to lie and get max money for his car. This will haunt the Mopar world, as well as Ford and Chevrolet, for as long as the car hobby exists.

Posted By: rayztoy

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/27/10 10:57 PM

Reproduction door stickers & reproduction window stickers exist. Now, possible reproduction build sheets. The BEST company, IMHO, to make them would be ECS, hands down, as they are a 1st rate company all across the board and have a proven track record! The Build Sheets would be approved with certain restrictions as Chrysler specified. I'm

as to why such a fuss?

Posted By: Scatransit

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/28/10 12:05 AM

Dave, (we have not met, but I gather that is your name from reading these posts) May I ask: What criteria would be employed should a re-issued broadcast sheet be brought to market? What type and how much documentation would be required? Would the vehicle need to be seen by you, or a company rep? Would a data base be available?
Thanks for your time-Craig

Posted By: Morty426

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/28/10 12:08 AM

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Dave, (we have not met, but I gather that is your name from reading these posts) May I ask: What criteria would be employed should a re-issued broadcast sheet be brought to market? What type and how much documentation would be required? Would the vehicle need to be seen by you, or a company rep? Would a data base be available?
Thanks for your time-Craig

I think Dave has been very clear on this item. You have to have an original BCS to get a reproduced copy. Plain and simple.

Posted By: MuscleMopars

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/28/10 12:20 AM

A broadcast sheet is the only thing that should not be reproduced to look like it might be an original. As everyone knows, it was hit or miss if a car got a broadcast sheet put in it at the factory and if you got one, you have one, and if you didn't, well, then you don't. If you have a 1/2 of one, you have a 1/2 of one. If the mouse chewed yours up, the mouse chewed it up. They are what they are and they should be left alone. End of story.

Posted By: Pacnorthcuda

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/28/10 12:24 AM

How much $ for a package deal that includes the BS, Fender Tag, Door Tag and VIN? ...and does it include a set of font-correct die stamps?

Posted By: Rhinodart

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/28/10 12:59 AM

Guess how I voted...

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/28/10 01:06 AM

After reading all the posts on this subject in the various threads I can see no reason for this poll.

1. Dave Walden and I disagree on many things but from all I can surmize about him is that he is an honorable man. He has stated that he will only reproduce them for people that HAVE AN EXISTING ORIGINAL ONE. So, unless you dispute what he is saying all of this is mote.

2. My question is, why would anyone WANT to buy one if they already have one? What is wrong with simply making a color copy that cost $2.00 to use for display to guard your original???

3. If you have your original even in poor condition, what difference does it make? IF it is not readable in some areas and a reproduction is made that "corrects" this problem then that opens up another can of worms about this.

4. The majority of the members on Moparts that think the BS is so important don't even understand how much of it is specific to THAT particular car. Example, lets use a 1969 Charger R/T. It came with either a 440 or a Hemi, which is coded in the V.I.N. Other items that are specific to THIS particular car that will be different from any other 1969 Charger R/T on the BS are the specific options that were ordered. The Hemi engine triggered certain items over the 440 and were reflected on the BS, but these very same items are identifable on the subject car by simply reseaching GGs white books which are basically just a cumulative source of info gathered from parts books and sales codes so what do you really need a BS for? Sure there is a VON and a sequence number on it and if the fender tag is missing you won't know these thing, but why do we really care? Why do we care what position it came down the line vs. any other car? We know that the SPD portion of the VON is just a GUESS as to when it was actually made so why do we care if we know the true SPD given by the factory. If it is really important to someone they can research registries for their car and compare V.I.N.S/VONS of other cars assembled at the same plant to determine just as accurate a time period. My point is that there is VERY LITTLE that the BS tells us that we can't figure out based on what we already know from the V.I.N. info that really effects the value of the car or can't be figure out from scrutinizing the particular car. Yes, there are some exceptions for some models/years regarding options like a shaker hood for value and some codes that are effected by things like axle packages but these codes are also easy enought to determine what triggers them on a specific car.

5. I have always said, PUT YOUR FAITH IN THE V.I.N. which many have poo pooed. They claim that it too can be reproduced or changed. Yes, that is true, but it is the ONE thing that carries HEAVY FEDERAL PENALTIES for doing so. The ONLY legal identifier for an old auto is the V.I.N. plate and it's matching title. The title is easily obtained but the V.I.N. plate is an entirely different item. Mopar owners of these old car are lucky that the V.I.N. spells out the model and engine that account for 90% of the value (or potential value) of thes old cars. For the most part the trans. and the color combo (which is a matter of taste) are the only things that really make any kind of economic sense regarding the value of most specific cars. Why? because the cost of adding an option to a car is outweighed by the cost of purchasing and installing it, so there is no economic advantage, only something someone would do for their own enjoyment.

To ME, the bottom line is that for MOPARS the broadcast sheet does not carry NEARLY the weight that it does for some other makes that don't have the luxury of a model and engine identifing V.I.N.
WAY TOO MUCH value is given to a broadcast sheet.

Posted By: flypaper

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/28/10 01:28 AM

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I'm as to why such a fuss?

Posted By: 69rrconvert

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/28/10 01:29 AM

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After reading all the posts on this subject in the various threads I can see no reason for this poll.

1. Dave Walden and I disagree on many things but from all I can surmize about him is that he is an honorable man. He has stated that he will only reproduce them for people that HAVE AN EXISTING ORIGINAL ONE. So, unless you dispute what he is saying all of this is mote.

2. My question is, why would anyone WANT to buy one if they already have one? What is wrong with simply making a color copy that cost $2.00 to use for display to guard your original???

3. If you have your original even in poor condition, what difference does it make? IF it is not readable in some areas and a reproduction is made that "corrects" this problem then that opens up another can of worms about this.

4. The majority of the members on Moparts that think the BS is so important don't even understand how much of it is specific to THAT particular car. Example, lets use a 1969 Charger R/T. It came with either a 440 or a Hemi, which is coded in the V.I.N. Other items that are specific to THIS particular car that will be different from any other 1969 Charger R/T on the BS are the specific options that were ordered. The Hemi engine triggered certain items over the 440 and were reflected on the BS, but these very same items are identifable on the subject car by simply reseaching GGs white books which are basically just a cumulative source of info gathered from parts books and sales codes so what do you really need a BS for? Sure there is a VON and a sequence number on it and if the fender tag is missing you won't know these thing, but why do we really care? Why do we care what position it came down the line vs. any other car? We know that the SPD portion of the VON is just a GUESS as to when it was actually made so why do we care if we know the true SPD given by the factory. If it is really important to someone they can research registries for their car and compare V.I.N.S/VONS of other cars assembled at the same plant to determine just as accurate a time period. My point is that there is VERY LITTLE that the BS tells us that we can't figure out based on what we already know from the V.I.N. info that really effects the value of the car or can't be figure out from scrutinizing the particular car. Yes, there are some exceptions for some models/years regarding options like a shaker hood for value and some codes that are effected by things like axle packages but these codes are also easy enought to determine what triggers them on a specific car.

5. I have always said, PUT YOUR FAITH IN THE V.I.N. which many have poo pooed. They claim that it too can be reproduced or changed. Yes, that is true, but it is the ONE thing that carries HEAVY FEDERAL PENALTIES for doing so. The ONLY legal identifier for an old auto is the V.I.N. plate and it's matching title. The title is easily obtained but the V.I.N. plate is an entirely different item. Mopar owners of these old car are lucky that the V.I.N. spells out the model and engine that account for 90% of the value (or potential value) of thes old cars. For the most part the trans. and the color combo (which is a matter of taste) are the only things that really make any kind of economic sense regarding the value of most specific cars. Why? because the cost of adding an option to a car is outweighed by the cost of purchasing and installing it, so there is no economic advantage, only something someone would do for their own enjoyment.

To ME, the bottom line is that for MOPARS the broadcast sheet does not carry NEARLY the weight that it does for some other makes that don't have the luxury of a model and engine identifing V.I.N.
WAY TOO MUCH value is given to a broadcast sheet.

Finally..........A breath of fresh air and sensibility

Posted By: Scatransit

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/28/10 01:42 AM

I think Dave has been very clear on this item. You have to have an original BCS to get a reproduced copy. Plain and simple.

Clear, plain, & simple huh?
Funny, this is the 3rd thread on the subject...

I agree with Eric...they are what they are, and should be left alone.

I was just curious about what plans may have been discussed regarding validation & authentication.

I'm sure I'm not alone.

If it's ever gonna happen, I'd rather it be with a reputable company, with a system in place that would protect the hobby and our investments.

Posted By: Morty426

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/28/10 02:05 AM

Quote:

I think Dave has been very clear on this item. You have to have an original BCS to get a reproduced copy. Plain and simple.

Well since I'm a Process Engineer I have the same question.

How would this work?

Do you need to send your original BCS to ECS for verification before you are issued a "replica"?

I think that's the only way you can do it and maintain the integrity. But the big problem here is I just don't see the market here. I'll just make a copy of BCS if I want to display it. How do you compete with a $1 copy machine?

Posted By: Aero426

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/28/10 03:42 AM

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A broadcast sheet is the only thing that should not be reproduced to look like it might be an original. As everyone knows, it was hit or miss if a car got a broadcast sheet put in it at the factory and if you got one, you have one, and if you didn't, well, then you don't. If you have a 1/2 of one, you have a 1/2 of one. If the mouse chewed yours up, the mouse chewed it up. They are what they are and they should be left alone. End of story.

I could not agree more.

What happens another 40 years down the road when the 100 percent accurate reproduction sheet has aged like the real one? How will the next generation of collectors tell the difference? (I know which piece of paper I would want.) Three owners down the line, the car changes hands and for whatever reason, the real build sheet is withheld or unintentionally lost in the "safe" place, and the reproduction is passed along. I would not want to be the buyer stuck in that position.

Until now, the broadcast sheet has been the one thing that hasn't been able to be accurately duplicated. I'm perfectly fine with this. While the build sheet is not the only factor in determining value in a car, it's mightly weighty, and I feel it is something that should not be touched by the reproduction industry.

Of the reproduction items currently available, the window stickers and fender tags are nice to have, but add little to no value - because, well, you know what they are. In my opinion, to offer a reproduction build sheet compromises the integrity of the original.

Posted By: ScottSmith_Harms

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/28/10 03:53 AM

First. I don't think they should be created under ANY circumstances for reasons that I and others have already noted in this and the previous related threads.

Having said that, if duplicates were reproduced using an original as a pattern, what methods would be used to determine that said originals are in fact authentic or unaltered? What if someone submitted an authentic unaltered original that had an unreadable or missing area, would the blanks be filled in as (whomever) chooses?

Can-O-Worms that should never be opened IMO

Posted By: 05dakota

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/28/10 04:03 AM

and that point was made 100 posts ago.

Posted By: ScottSmith_Harms

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/28/10 04:14 AM

Quote:

and that point was made 100 posts ago.

Which is why I included this:

Quote:

for reasons that I and others have already noted in this and the previous related threads.

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/28/10 04:34 AM

Quote:

and that point was made 100 posts ago.

Actually Ted we are right back where this originally started! Forget the fact that a piece of junk reproduction "fake" car is completely acceptable as long as the assembly instruction sheet says that it is real! (Keep in mind that Broadcast Sheets are NOT a document and were NEVER intended to be anything but a disposable build instructional guide some 40 years ago.) The "Sheep" have all followed this backwards brainwashing over the years! I have never seen such a ridiculous, more contradictory, oxymoron way of thinking in my life. If you have a re-bodied car with no paperwork than you are considered weasel and a crook. If you have a re-bodied phony car and a "real" Broadcast sheet to authenticate what it is, then you are okay in everyone's book! We have become an industry of collecting paper....the heck with the car! Fake the car and have original paperwork....

Get reproduction paperwork that represents an all original car....

What a perfect and logical way of thinking!

Posted By: CurYellowBird

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/28/10 04:37 AM

I got a really easy way to fix this. Why don't those who are producing these BCS just put "reproduction" somewhere on the sheet. Jeez making a big deal out of it. Just put something on it to say it is a repro and call it a day.

Goes with the saying "Build the car the way you want it". In this case, the owner can do whatever he wants if the car is his.

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/28/10 04:52 AM

For whatever reason many of the experts are completely ignoring the Ten Ton Elephant that is sitting in the room. You guys ABSOLUTELY know that almost every restored vehicle out there has almost NO remaining original parts BUT are "authenticated" by the original Build sheet. In past threads you have preached how a car "can only be original once" and a restored car should NEVER rank over an all original one. But NOW you want to pull back from that position when the Build sheet comes into play. NOW the build sheet actually DOES make a reproduction, non-original car worth more. WITHOUT the Build sheet a "reproduction car" is nothing but a reproduction "fake" car. WITH the build sheet it is magically transformed into representing and authenticating an "all original vehicle". If not for absence of linear logic or rational thought, I would think all of this as nothing more than a bad punchline to an Automotive joke!

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/28/10 05:02 AM

Quote:

I got a really easy way to fix this. Why don't those who are producing these BCS just put "reproduction" somewhere on the sheet. Jeez making a big deal out of it. Just put something on it to say it is a repro and call it a day.

Goes with the saying "Build the car the way you want it". In this case, the owner can do whatever he wants if the car is his.

How about this....you have a real car, you are only allowed to have a real build sheet. You have a restored "reproduction" car, you can get a reproduction build sheet! Or should the logic work in only one direction?

(No I am not having a change of heart. Just trying to add a little common sense to a one sided way of thinking!)

Posted By: SNK-EYZ

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/28/10 05:05 AM

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I got a really easy way to fix this. Why don't those who are producing these BCS just put "reproduction" somewhere on the sheet. Jeez making a big deal out of it. Just put something on it to say it is a repro and call it a day.

Goes with the saying "Build the car the way you want it". In this case, the owner can do whatever he wants if the car is his.

That's kind of what I was thinking, but the word reproduction had to be somewhere where it can't be removed.

The fact is, it's a reproduction BCS no matter what.
If it's only for display purposes and not for trying to scam someone into believing it's an original BCS does it have to be perfect?

If you have an original BCS scan it and display the scanned copy or your choice is display a BCS that says reproduction on it.

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/28/10 05:11 AM

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Of the reproduction items currently available, the window stickers and fender tags are nice to have, but add little to no value....

....but an "original" Broadcast Sheet adds value to the "reproduction" parts used to restore a car!

I sure wish I was able to determine which reproduction parts are valuable with an original Build Sheet and which ones are of "little to no value...." without one. This gets really confusing for me!

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/28/10 05:19 AM

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If it's only for display purposes and not for trying to scam someone into believing it's an original BCS does it have to be perfect?

Once again, why not use that same logic with the other factors of these cars? Why do most people complain when the Good Mark fenders don't fit "perfect"? Why do people scrutinize and criticize our other decals and paper products if they don't want them to appear original or look "perfect"? Should we assume that anyone who restores a car to look like new or "perfect" is actually trying to scam someone into thinking that it is original? Who gets to make the new rules for what can look authentic and what should look altered?

Posted By: CurYellowBird

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/28/10 05:24 AM

Chances are that not everyone here has a car that is as correct as the day it rolled off the showroom floor. Unless you did a point-for-point "gold" resto on your car (which is stupid IMO cause it is probably spending its life on a trailor) then this whole repro argument doesn't mean anything.

Why don't people make such a big deal out of repopped fender tags or window stickers? I know my car is completely original (minus wheels) but luckily I have a scrap left that has the code "3" letting me know it came with magnums. So I could easily just walk around the car and write down all the options and have a repro made. Or just print one out of the tech archives and just write the numbers in lol

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/28/10 05:33 AM

Quote:

Chances are that not everyone here has a car that is as correct as the day it rolled off the showroom floor.

THANK YOU for finally stating the reality to all of this!

All of these guys who are content with an unoriginal car are all bugged up over having an original piece of paper that no longer represents the actual vehicle! That is exactly what I have been waiting for someone to say.

Now....can anybody that feels this way, please explain the warped logic for requiring a piece of original paperwork that represents their "fake" car but the opposite scenario is NOT ALLOWED?!

Posted By: SNK-EYZ

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/28/10 05:34 AM

Quote:

Quote:

If it's only for display purposes and not for trying to scam someone into believing it's an original BCS does it have to be perfect?

Once again, why not use that same logic with the other factors of these cars? Why do most people complain when the Good Mark fenders don't fit "perfect"? Why do people scrutinize and criticize our other decals and paper products if they don't want them to appear original or look "perfect"? Should we assume that anyone who restores a car to look like new or "perfect" is actually trying to scam someone into thinking that it is original? Who gets to make the new rules for what can look authentic and what should look altered?

I completely understand your logic on this.

The thing about a BCS is that it's used to correctly restore a car to the way it left the factory, or it can be used to try to document a bogus car.

The other parts for the car don't have that distinction, they just bolt or weld on.

You can restore a car to exactly the way it left the factory, but it's still restored car any way you look at it.

It's been said many times, a car is only original once.
Unless it's an unrestored survivor that hasn't been touched (and that opens a whole different can of worms) it's restored.

Posted By: MuscleMopars

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/28/10 05:38 AM

Quote:

Quote:

If it's only for display purposes and not for trying to scam someone into believing it's an original BCS does it have to be perfect?

Once again, why not use that same logic with the other factors of these cars? Why do most people complain when the Good Mark fenders don't fit "perfect"? Why do people scrutinize and criticize our other decals and paper products if they don't want them to appear original or look "perfect"? Should we assume that anyone who restores a car to look like new or "perfect" is actually trying to scam someone into thinking that it is original? Who gets to make the new rules for what can look authentic and what should look altered?

Because a broadcast sheet documents the entire car, a fender is a fender, a part is a part, a decal is a decal, etc... An original broadcast sheet will tell you if the car is correct or authentic. Reproduction parts are made to restore a car back to the factory look and performance. And the blueprint to restoring a car back to the way it came off the assy line is an original broadcast sheet.
I have a question...Why would anyone ever want a perfect undetectable reproduction broadcast sheet?

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/28/10 05:39 AM

Quote:

The thing about a BCS is that it's used to correctly restore a car to the way it left the factory

I can assure you Rich that I have seen plenty of "restored" vehicles (with original Build-sheets) that looked NOTHING like a correct, original factory car!

Posted By: CurYellowBird

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/28/10 05:42 AM

Quote:

Now....can anybody that feels this way, please explain the warped logic for requiring a piece of original paperwork that represents their "fake" car but the opposite scenario is NOT ALLOWED?!

Good point. Probably the same reason why it is ok for young girls to date older guys but wrong for young guys to date older women

I think it is this way because this topic, and the anal restoration guys, puts the BCS on a pedestial rather than focus on why that sheet was printed in the first place. To give life to the cars we own and love now.

Think of it this way, whats more fun? A broadcast sheet with no car, or no broadcast sheet with a car. If you want the first option allow me to think your

Everyone is too worried that a piece of paper will devalue our cars to nothing more than a honda civic. In all reality, you can tell what is original on the car by simply looking at the VIN, stampings on the engine, fender tag, part numbers, etc. These things are what make the broadcast sheet anyway.

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/28/10 05:43 AM

Quote:

I have a question...Why would anyone ever want a perfect undetectable reproduction broadcast sheet?

I don't know Eric!

I guess I should have asked the 40+ people who have called me/emailed me these past couple of days, who were literally begging for one!

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/28/10 05:45 AM

Be careful Pat!! You are almost starting to sound a bit like me.

Posted By: CurYellowBird

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/28/10 05:46 AM

Quote:

I have a question...Why would anyone ever want a perfect undetectable reproduction broadcast sheet?

No one said that they did, if they did I missed that post. I just want one to "look" somewhat like the original one. I will never sell the car or anything of that nature, but would be nice to have one that doesn't smell like mouse piss and is in multiple pieces and dust. That way I can actually "touch" the piece of paper without making chrysler fairy dust.

Posted By: MuscleMopars

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/28/10 05:51 AM

Quote:

Quote:

I have a question...Why would anyone ever want a perfect undetectable reproduction broadcast sheet?

I don't know Eric! I guess I should have asked the 40+ people who have called me/emailed me these past couple of days, who were literally begging for one!

Yes, you should. A broadcast sheet is NOT a reproduction part, it's a document that either you have or you don't. The ONLY reason anybody would want a undetectable reproduction broadcast sheet is to deceive.

Posted By: SNK-EYZ

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/28/10 05:55 AM

Quote:

Quote:

The thing about a BCS is that it's used to correctly restore a car to the way it left the factory

I can assure you Rich that I have seen plenty of "restored" vehicles (with original Build-sheets) that looked NOTHING like a correct, original factory car!

Dave, I know that there are plenty of improperly restored cars out there.

As in over-restored, poorly restored.
What some people call a restoration is more of a rattle can special (rattle can Rembrandt specials as we call them).

Posted By: CurYellowBird

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/28/10 05:56 AM

Quote:

Yes, you should. A broadcast sheet is NOT a reproduction part, it's a document that either you have or you don't. The ONLY reason anybody would want a undetectable reproduction broadcast sheet is to deceive.

Not everyone is into this hobby to deceive. As stated, you cannot make a repro look or smell as old as the car. You cannot reproduced the 20-40 year old rusty spring marks on the paper.

Main reason I would want one is because down here in south texas, we only have a "mopar" class and thats it at these shows while the chevys and fords get every class they want. Any edge a mopar can get in a show, even if its a repro BCS sheet, is helpful. Your definately not gonna pass off a repro sheet at the Mopar Nats anyway.

Posted By: MuscleMopars

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/28/10 05:58 AM

Quote:

Quote:

I have a question...Why would anyone ever want a perfect undetectable reproduction broadcast sheet?

No one said that they did, if they did I missed that post. I just want one to "look" somewhat like the original one. I will never sell the car or anything of that nature, but would be nice to have one that doesn't smell like mouse piss and is in multiple pieces and dust. That way I can actually "touch" the piece of paper without making chrysler fairy dust.

That is fine. Make one that is similar to a broadcast sheet that is different than an original. But there are people making (or have made) undetectable reproduction broadcast sheets. There is NO need for those.

Posted By: CurYellowBird

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/28/10 06:05 AM

Quote:

That is fine. Make one that is similar to a broadcast sheet that is different than an original. But there are people making (or have made) undetectable reproduction broadcast sheets. There is NO need for those.

Then I think this thread is not based on whether it is right or wrong to make a reproduction BCS, but rather the integrity and intention of those who want one.

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/28/10 06:05 AM

Hi Pat,
I have been throwing out these thoughts in an attempt to see if anyone would actually hit the nail on the head. It isn't up to any one person as to what should or should not be done! It is Chrysler who is in charge of their company and what they choose to do. If not for the majority/minority (which ever) I would have offered these a long time ago. As much as guys like Rhinodart, Pacnorthcuda, etc..... can't stand me, I owe them the same respect in this hobby as those who appreciate what we do and support our cause! We don't want to alienate ANYONE in this hobby and it is not our intent to hurt the value of these vehicles in anyway. I simply wanted to open the eyes of people who might be victim to the same bug that I was bit by when I arrived on the scene in 2002. Real paperwork does NOT guarantee a real car! Yes it is important but only because WE as a hobby have made it that way. It in no way ensures (absolute) reality for anything except the "old" paper it is printed on!

Posted By: MuscleMopars

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/28/10 06:05 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Yes, you should. A broadcast sheet is NOT a reproduction part, it's a document that either you have or you don't. The ONLY reason anybody would want a undetectable reproduction broadcast sheet is to deceive.

Not everyone is into this hobby to deceive. As stated, you cannot make a repro look or smell as old as the car. You cannot reproduced the 20-40 year old rusty spring marks on the paper.

Main reason I would want one is because down here in south texas, we only have a "mopar" class and thats it at these shows while the chevys and fords get every class they want. Any edge a mopar can get in a show, even if its a repro BCS sheet, is helpful. Your definately not gonna pass off a repro sheet at the Mopar Nats anyway.

But if you want an undetectable reproduction broadcast sheet to get an edge in a car show you are deceiving the judges in that show. A professional made similar sheet with obvious differences would be OK though!

Posted By: CurYellowBird

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/28/10 06:08 AM

This thread is actually helping me. When I began reading this thread, I was actually totally against BCS reproductions, but after hearing both sides, the issue is clear and that's what is in my post above yours.

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/28/10 06:11 AM

Thanks Pat!

Posted By: MuscleMopars

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/28/10 06:11 AM

Quote:

Hi Pat,
I have been throwing out these thoughts in an attempt to see if anyone would actually hit the nail on the head. It isn't up to any one person as to what should or should not be done! It is Chrysler who is in charge of their company and what they choose to do. If not for the majority/minority (which ever) I would have offered these a long time ago. As much as guys like Rhinodart, Pacnorthcuda, etc..... can't stand me, I owe them the same respect in this hobby as those who appreciate what we do and support our cause! We don't want to alienate ANYONE in this hobby and it is not our intent to hurt the value of these vehicles in anyway. I simply wanted to open the eyes of people who might be victim to the same bug that I was bit by when I arrived on the scene in 2002. Real paperwork does NOT guarantee a real car! Yes it is important but only because WE as a hobby have made it that way. It in no way ensures (absolute) reality for anything except the "old" paper it is printed on!

for the most part Dave! The other reality is the sheet is evidence that the car really did exist.

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/28/10 06:18 AM

Quote:

for the most part Dave! The other reality is the sheet is evidence that the car really did exist.

Thanks Eric!

Hopefully people won't start building "fake" cars to represent real paperwork! (I know that comment was naive. It has already been happening for quite some time now. Oh well....you can't win for losing!)

Posted By: SNK-EYZ

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/28/10 06:29 AM

Quote:

Quote:

for the most part Dave! The other reality is the sheet is evidence that the car really did exist.

Thanks Eric! Hopefully people won't start building "fake" cars to represent real paperwork! (I know that comment was naive. It has already been happening for quite some time now. Oh well....you can't win for losing!)

That's the problem that come into play when people are in it simply to deceive and make $$$$.

I know of a Hemi Charger body that a buddy has that the same VIN number was authenticated by a "specialist" on another Charger that the "specialist" documented.
The "specialist" doesn't want to talk about the VIN and would like to see the original (very rough) body go away now.

Posted By: gomangoRTSE

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/28/10 12:22 PM

you think the availability of "reproduction broadcast sheets" undermines the integrity and reputation of those involved with reproducing them?
Users may choose only one (110 total votes)
Yes
56 51%

No
54 49%

____________________________________________

Clearly the sites members are evenly split on this issue. This despite the wording thats intended to elicit a certain response. There is no distinct verdict on this issue. With a 110 members voting its virtually a dead heat. So we gentlemen are at a stand still still. An intrigueiing issue we have here. "

There are no good guys, there are no bad guys, theres just you and me and we just disagree."

Posted By: Rhinodart

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/28/10 12:45 PM

Quote:

Hi Pat,
I have been throwing out these thoughts in an attempt to see if anyone would actually hit the nail on the head. It isn't up to any one person as to what should or should not be done! It is Chrysler who is in charge of their company and what they choose to do. If not for the majority/minority (which ever) I would have offered these a long time ago. As much as guys like Rhinodart, Pacnorthcuda, etc..... can't stand me, I owe them the same respect in this hobby as those who appreciate what we do and support our cause! We don't want to alienate ANYONE in this hobby and it is not our intent to hurt the value of these vehicles in anyway. I simply wanted to open the eyes of people who might be victim to the same bug that I was bit by when I arrived on the scene in 2002. Real paperwork does NOT guarantee a real car! Yes it is important but only because WE as a hobby have made it that way. It in no way ensures (absolute) reality for anything except the "old" paper it is printed on!

Hold on there, Davey! I appreciate what you do for the hobby in general, we just happen to be polar opposites on this subject, I certainly don't "hate" you!

I can follow your flawed logic on this subject by reading your point-by-point diatribes as these threads go along, that is enough for me to tell that you have a strong opinion that some share it and some don't.

When you and "Chrysler" finally decide to make these bogus sheets available (mark my word it will happen if you do it or someone else does) then we and other Mopar boards will rehash this nonsence all over again and it will only lead to more discourse that this hobby does not need...

Posted By: Dave Watt

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/28/10 01:10 PM

Quote:

When you and "Chrysler" finally decide to make these bogus sheets available (mark my word it will happen if you do it or someone else does) then we and other Mopar boards will rehash this nonsence all over again and it will only lead to more discourse that this hobby does not need...

You're right.
Chrysler and anyone working on it with Chrysler would only be in it for one reason, $$$$. Nothing good can be said about reproducing Broadcast sheets.

Posted By: anlauto

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/28/10 01:54 PM

Overall I just don't think it's a good idea....if fact I think it's a very bad idea to reproduce Broadcast Sheets.

Posted By: NV69B7RR

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/28/10 02:03 PM

Its obvious from the last posting on this that somebody's tooled up and ready go make them, as evidenced by the spools of paper and the printer. Some people see it as a good thing others don't. Its a product/service that you can choose to buy or not. Personally I'd be thrilled to find the sheet for my Demon, but having one reporoduced is not the same. Somebodys going to make them whether theres a poll for it or not. It didn;t take people long start repoping fender tags did it?

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/28/10 02:12 PM

Quote:

Chrysler and anyone working on it with Chrysler would only be in it for one reason, $$$$.

Well Dave....I would have thought that after reviewing the facts you would have drawn a different conclusion. I did these seven years ago and have sat on them with no need for the money that you assume "anyone" would have done this for. When people make unjustified comments like THAT, it only exposes their personality and what THEY would do in a similar situation. I think what you are actually saying is that YOU would only be in it for the money! Now before you respond and lecture me about how I have no right to judge who you are and what you think

.... please remember the "hypocrisy" thread that could be posted somewhere down the road!

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/28/10 02:20 PM

Quote:

Its obvious from the last posting on this that somebody's tooled up and ready go make them, as evidenced by the spools of paper and the printer.

Yes, that was all done seven years ago. I am just extremely slow at bringing things to market. I probably need to contact Chrysler to talk to them about this in greater detail! It shouldn't take maybe another five or six years for me to contact them!

Just out of curiosity....what else do some of you think that I will be doing (business related) over the next few years?

Posted By: Dave Watt

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/28/10 03:19 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Chrysler and anyone working on it with Chrysler would only be in it for one reason, $$$$.

Well Dave....I would have thought that after reviewing the facts you would have drawn a different conclusion. I did these seven years ago and have sat on them with no need for the money that you assume "anyone" would have done this for. When people make unjustified comments like THAT, it only exposes their personality and what THEY would do in a similar situation. I think what you are actually saying is that YOU would only be in it for the money! Now before you respond and lecture me about how I have no right to judge who you are and what you think .... please remember the "hypocrisy" thread that could be posted somewhere down the road!

Are you for real? You didn't read my quote very well. I wasn't even speaking of you. I said anyone working on it with Chrylser would be in it for the money. I guess if you take offense to that, then that makes you a guilty party. Enough said.

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/28/10 03:34 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Somebody already does make them. In fact "somebodies" already make them.

Right, that's my point. Brow beating ECS for doing them sure isn't going to stop the others from doing it.
Again, knowing how to spot the differences is going to be the only defense against them.

Actually, there is a way to test them to see if it is fake or not. Its called carbon 14 dating! Its been around for years testing so called legitimate documents.

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/28/10 03:47 PM

Quote:

Quote:

....And since he is licensed from Chrysler to make the broadcast sheets, along with his criteria for a customer to obtain a sheet, I could see the sheets as more of a 'reissue' than a reproduction.

Thanks for your post Mark but keep in mind that we are NOT actually licensed to sell these. I want to take the time at this point to explain a few things that pertain to this subject. I also want to address the last post that Barry issued. (For the record, I think very highly of Barry and what he does. We have our differences sometimes but I would help him or anyone else to stop impropriety in our hobby.)

After I made these I approached Chrysler with the idea of offering them as a novelty item. They received EVERYTHING that I had made and said that they could be approved if we would agree on how to keep things in check. They told me to think about a way to do this and submit my ideas for final approval. During that time Dave S. and I talked further about this and decided it would not be good for the hobby. Now lets go back to the year 2002.

In 2002 there were very few people that knew about our company. The first two guys to reach out to me and introduce themselves were Dave Wise and Daniel Banker. I became good friends with these guys. A short time later I met Roger Gibson and he asked if I would consider trying to make accurate VIN decals. (After months of development we came up with the product that many of you guys have purchased over the past few years.) I submitted those items to Chrysler for licensing and they were approved. The first person to actually know about them being for sale was Steve Klein at the 2003 Nationals. I remember how excited he was to see "a closed 4" in the VIN number! One of the first guys to buy a VIN decal was Daniel Banker. He was so pleased with it that he posted pictures of it here on Moparts. The next day I couldn't believe all the calls I had people wanting to buy one BUT a separate group of guys desperately tried to have them taken off the market. What ensued was a ridiculous mess. Chrysler told me that the "guru" tried to have my VIN license stripped because he was concerned about the safety of the industry. He said that my decals would open things up for fraud and the hobby would be ruined! He tried 3 times to have my licensing revoked! Needless to say, we have a very close and solid relationship with Chrysler today!

Well here we are in 2010 and guess what? It didn't ruin the value of your beloved cars and ECS has ALWAYS kept air tight documentation from day one. Many of you who were actually opposed the VINs and feel the same about THIS scenario, ended up purchasing MULTIPLE VIN decals from my company! Go check out the testimonial from Chrysler on our website (www.ecsvin.com - under Vital Info.) It states that: "ECS Automotive Concepts complies with the stringent requirements established by Chrysler for proper verification, record keeping and continuing audit as it relates to the production of replacement VIN Certification decals." THAT IS HOW WE DO EVERYTHING IN OUR COMPANY! I have no intentions of marketing these sheets illegally. If they were to be available (again...no plans to ever do so) I can assure everyone that there would NEVER be any shady practices related whatsoever. I can assure everyone reading this that ECS is above compromising our standards for something that is as insignificance as these reproduction Build-sheets. Please stop worrying about all of this! The only thing that has changed is your guys awareness of it. I had these seven years ago! Prior to last week how many of you felt that our hobby was in "danger" because of this? Did any of you turn your back on Christmas when you learned the reality of Santa Claus and his Elves? Nothing has changed!

DW

Dave, you are probably the biggest Grinch out there! Honestly, I think the Grinch even looks up to you.

Let me find a pic of him and maybe we can email it to you and then you can post it on your avatar like you suggested when we talked on the phone. <<<<WARNING---- THE PREVIOUSLY POSTED STUFF WAS INTENDED FOR ENTERTAINMENT ONLY>>>>>> Now, the honest truth about Dave..... he has got to be one of the greatest guys that I know stopping and taking time to talk to anyone in the hobby. The dedication and research that he has done has only helped our hobby that I see, not hurt it. Maybe some of you would settle for crappy reproduction pieces that don't look or fit right. I for one am always tring to improve my cars and not settle for second best. Thankfully, Metro has also taken this adage and brought excellent repro door panels for the E bodys to the market. Now I don't hear anyone flaming them for making a part that is perfect. Granted, it is not a piece of documented paperwork, but as I stated earlier, paperwork can be authenticated by carbon 14 dating, just like any carbon based item can.

Posted By: Sssnake383

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/28/10 03:53 PM

Quote:

As for being licensed by Chrysler, that does not mean it is ethical to reproduce a broadcast sheet, it only means Chrysler has given you their rights to produce something that they did in the past without having to worry about being sued by Chrysler.
___________________________________________
Then to use "your" logic, Chrylser by showing willingness to licence a broadcast sheet under conditions is either directly or indirectly acting unethically.

The poll isnt neutral based in its wording. Not at all. One can only read the questions to know the poster feels on the subject. That is readily apparant. Reword in a more neutral way then allow the people to vote on it.

1. Should an authorized Chrysler distributor who has been provided legitmate documentation of the original buildsheet be allowed to reproduce that buildsheet, or that buildsheet showing a watermark that determines its reproduction status.

There are alot better ways to neutralize these questions besides wording in a way to get a predetermined answer.

Thats like asking should a person who is convicted of a crime serve jail time. That question is worded to elicit a simple answer YES!

The more informative questionaire would ask.
1. What kind of crime?
2. What was the severity of the crime?
3. Was it under extreme durress?
4. Was it a first time offense?
5. Was it a simple misdomeanor?

What I am saying is the original question of "Should a person convicted of a crime serve jail time?" is simply directed to elicit the answer of yes.

Quote:

you think the availability of "reproduction broadcast sheets" undermines the integrity and reputation of those involved with reproducing them?
Users may choose only one (110 total votes)
Yes
56 51%

No
54 49%

____________________________________________

Clearly the sites members are evenly split on this issue. This despite the wording thats intended to elicit a certain response. There is no distinct verdict on this issue. With a 110 members voting its virtually a dead heat. So we gentlemen are at a stand still still. An intrigueiing issue we have here. "

There are no good guys, there are no bad guys, theres just you and me and we just disagree."

I am not a professional poll-maker. I tried to word that question as neutral and unbiased as possible while trying to be general. The question needed to be asked as previous posts indicated that those folks that didn't feel that a repro BS sheet should be made available ALSO felt that a reproducer's integrity and reputation would suffer from their manufacture. And I don't see how the example question of "Should a person convicted of a crime serve jail time?" you used to illustrate your point is related to how I worded the question about repro BC sheets UNLESS you are pre-dispositioned to feel that someone who reproduces BC sheets is committing a criminal, fraudulent, or morally corrupt act? If you DO NOT feel that way (or are NOT so pre-dispositioned) , you'd answer "NO" because you'd feel there is no immoral, criminal, or fraudulant connection in the reproduction of broadcast sheets. The "dead heat" you speak of regarding the poll results I feel proves this and the validity of the question. You could certainly create your own poll thread with wording you find more acceptable (or even add your additional poll questions to this thread) if you feel differently.

I have not opined publicly one way or the other on this subject yet you have me pegged as an adversary. Actually, I think Dave's motives are pretty clear and reasonable here, although I am not so sure about the way he presents his position at times. Unfortunately, other people's motives may not be so clear.

I am not against repro BC sheets if there exists an original, however I am more comfortable with a reproduction sheet that has an identifying watermark or other identifying mark or code or whatever. It is a legitimate concern that we must trust those reproducing broadcast sheets that they would, in fact, only reproduce a sheet if an original exists and that the reproducer would verify this original sheet carefully before making the new broadcast. Heck, if BC sheets ARE to be reproduced I would like a stand-up, trustworthy guy like Dave to make them. At least there appears to be accountability and transparency with Dave and his company. He has stated he has a licensing agreement with Chrysler regarding BC sheets and has said he would only even consider reproducing a broadcast sheet strictly in cases where an original exists.

Dave, have you responded to the pertinent questions regarding the possible making of watermarked/identified reproductions of broadcast sheets or have I missed it? Would you consider reproducing a sheet and adding some identifying characteristic to differentiate it from the original and as a reproduction?

As others have previously said, outright fakes will continue to be made (perhaps by unscrupulous individuals) with or without the intent to defraud but that isn't the topic of this discussion, so I thought.

Posted By: joelson6

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/28/10 04:02 PM

WOW, everyone here is worse than a bunch of cackling old ladies in their sewing circle. holy crap.

LOOK!

BOTTOM LINE !

IT'S A PIECE OF DOCUMENTATION !

THAT'S IT ! PERIOD !

some cars got them some cars didn't, oh well.

just because this is a "collector's hobby" now doesn't mean anything, they are just cars.
I'm pretty sure documents were swapped, switched and changed all the way back to when that first shady car dealer wanted to make a couple extra bucks. and it's sure gonna happen in the future.
so why would re-creating a document from an original make any difference, it don't. and don't try to tell me it does!

if you lose your birth certificate and you need a copy, does it make you worth anything less? NO

it you lose the deed to your house and you need a copy, does it make it worth anything less? NO

this is starting to get ridiculous

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/28/10 04:04 PM

Quote:

Are you for real? You didn't read my quote very well. I wasn't even speaking of you. I said anyone working on it with Chrylser would be in it for the money. I guess if you take offense to that, then that makes you a guilty party. Enough said.

Oh....I understand now Dave! You actually meant "Anyone". You were not talking about the normal meaning of "Anyone" as it relates to "ALL" people! You must have been referring to the OTHER people who represent "Anyone". Now keep in mind that throughout this entire thread I am the person that has been under the microscope as it relates to this subject matter but you were not referencing me.....right? NEWSFLASH Dave! I am the main party being talked about in this thread that has been working with Chrysler on the Broadcast Sheets! But you were referencing the other "Anyone" who might be doing this with Chrysler....right?

.....and you felt the need to ask if I am for real?!?! Oh my Lord!!!!

Posted By: 05dakota

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/28/10 04:28 PM

is it lunch time?

Posted By: Dave Watt

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/28/10 04:31 PM

Quote:

You just answered your own question.

Posted By: Sssnake383

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/28/10 04:31 PM

In response to some legitimate concerns raised by a few previous posters, I thought I'd expand my poll a bit to include these questions.

Posted By: b54406barrel

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/28/10 04:58 PM

Geez-Louise, this looks serious! I'll take 2 for my 70 6bbl LA car & I want them to show it has a blue mod top!

Too bad these things aren't still just cars like they were when I was buying 'em new.

Posted By: CurYellowBird

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/28/10 05:04 PM

I like the expansion of the poll there snake.

Let me say this in the typical 19 year old mind set that some of you had when you first got into the hobby. And this is how I feel about:

"I'm gonna do what I want, when I want, and how I want. You don't like it, you can go to h*** motherf*****."

I'm known for being blunt, figured it was time to keep it simple. <^>(-_-)<^>

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/28/10 05:18 PM

Why not use this point in the thread for an intermission? How about some comic relief as it relates to the rationale that has been expressed by some? How about using the Work place and "employee conversation" as our setting!? Here goes:

DAVE: Hey Joe.....anyone who drives a Ford Truck is an idiot!

JOE: Take that back Dave! I drive a Ford Truck!

DAVE: I wasn't even speaking of you Joe. I said anyone who drives a Ford Truck is an idiot!

JOE: Listen to what you are saying Dave! You include me when you say that "anyone" who drives a Ford Truck is an idiot!

DAVE: Are for real Joe? Can you not understand plain English? I wasn't even talking about you! Chill out. I simply said that ANYONE who drives a Ford Truck is an idiot!

JOE: Yeah Dave.....but I drive a Ford Truck....

Can you understand your quote now big Dave?!

"Are you for real? You didn't read my quote very well. I wasn't even speaking of you. I said anyone working on it with Chrylser would be in it for the money."

Posted By: joelson6

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/28/10 05:25 PM

who's on first

what's on second

Posted By: wkroncke17

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/28/10 05:26 PM

This is good stuff.....

Reproduce them Dave, I'll buy one.
I'm about to place an order with you guys soon, as my Coronet is about home from the paint shop.
Thanks for what you do for this hobby.

Wally.

Posted By: CurYellowBird

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/28/10 05:27 PM

Quote:

This is good stuff.....
Reproduce them Dave, I'll buy one.
I'm about to place an order with you guys soon, as my Coronet is about home from the paint shop.
Thanks for what you do for this hobby.

Wally.

Posted By: rayztoy

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/28/10 05:40 PM

ECS makes the Door Stickers and Window Stickers that are dead nuts right on accurate to originals. With that being said, one can still tell the difference with new reproduction and 40 year old. IMHO, Broadcast Sheets are no different. I'm NOT wishing this on anyone, but when you have a severe health issue, you will really see the light of what's really important!

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/28/10 05:49 PM

My good friend Ray! Thanks for conveying the true importance of ANYTHING!

(I need to give you a call and catch up on things! Take care Sir!)

Posted By: Morty426

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/28/10 06:10 PM

Dave drives a Ford truck?

Just kidding Dave - I get it what you are saying - can I try hit the nail on the head?

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/28/10 06:14 PM

All of this is really quite simple.

As I said before, start paying more attention to the V.I.N. rather than the BCS.

It is as simple as this, some had them some didn't, some had them that are now lost. Does this make the car anything less than what it is? NO. Does it PROVE the car to be MORE than what it is? NO. Does it give you anymore info about the car than what you can determine from investigating the car? VERY LITTLE.

People that are trying to restore a car "per the sheet" have lost track of why people bought these cars new they are trying to create. MOST of them within 6 months had aftermarket wheels, headers, engine mods, custom paint, etc.SELDOM did the cars have things like springs, torsion bars, radiators, etc. changed. If you are starting with a car that is little more than a shell with a BCS and expecting to have an OEM first place winner when done then you are probably barking up the wrong tree. YES, starting with a car like this and trying to work backwards from a sheet is not a sound choice be it economical or from a hardship point of view.

As soon as people stop assigning so much value to a BCS the sooner the madness will stop.

We have lost site of what owning one of these cars is all about. When people bought these cars new 99% of them didn't even know what a broadcast sheet was let alone CARE if they had one. For that matter they didn't really care what the V.I.N. was on the car until they discovered that the insurance companies were using it to charge them more money. In fact, some people were switching the V.I.N.s and titles to their hipo cars with late model totaled cars that qualified for lower rates.

No one sees your V.I.N., FT, or BCS unless YOU show it to them.

I am BETTING that the people that buy an OEM restored car immediately take the steel wheels off and store them and add aftermarket wheels just like they saw them when these cars were new. These original wheels sit in the garage until the car is again sold to a new owner who does the same. The vast majority of these people NEVER have these cars judge in an OEM class. However, they have become victums of the casual parking lot show "expert" that doesn't even OWN one of these cars that is trying to impress his buddy by dissing the car. it is time to GET OVER ALL OF THIS and get back to enjoying these cars for what they are.

Yes, I want a REAL car just as much as others here, but the V.I.N. is all I really need to determine that. If it has a fender tag or BS that is a bonus BUT only because others in the hobby view it to be, GET OVER IT!!!

A better poll might be one that asks how many people have ever competed in OEM judging or ever intent to. Does most of this really matter unless you are going to?
Another question might be, how many people even have a display board that they take with their car to a Saturday night parking light show. I go quite frequently to one of the countries largest one and I already KNOW the answer to it, VERY FEW.

People with perfectly restored cars are in the MINORITY in the hobby. many owners DREAM of there cars being that someday but that dream is seldom realized. The people that do it will often tell you they had more fun with the car when it was a driver.

Posted By: not_a_charger

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/28/10 06:30 PM

Quote:

People with perfectly restored cars are in the MINORITY in the hobby.

Who cares? People like what they like. Liking a stock, OE-style resto is no better or worse than a modified car or a driver. Get off the "losing sight about why people bought these cars new" high horse. Not only was that 40 years ago, but guess what? Not everyone bought cars for the same reason, and it's not up to you to decide who likes what, or what anyone else should do with their car, or why people buy them.

Posted By: a12superbee

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/28/10 06:51 PM

My cat's breath smells like cat food.

Attached picture 5952138-ralphwiggum.jpg

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/28/10 06:59 PM

Quote:

Quote:

People with perfectly restored cars are in the MINORITY in the hobby.

Who cares? People like what they like. Liking a stock, OE-style resto is no better or worse than a modified car or a driver. Get off the "losing sight about why people bought these cars new" high horse. Not only was that 40 years ago, but guess what? Not everyone bought cars for the same reason, and it's not up to you to decide who likes what, or what anyone else should do with their car, or why people buy them.

EXACTLY.

And this is why this entire subject is pointless.

It is no one elses business if someone has or wants a repo BCS. As far as anyone else getting BURNED down the road from it, "let the buyer beware." This will simply bring the whole situation right where it should be, and people will then realize the value of their cars will be determined by what the V.I.N. and the telltale things on the car PROVE it to be.

Posted By: not_a_charger

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/28/10 07:01 PM

I agree with you that if people didn't care about this aspect of the hobby, this issue wouldn't exist. However, there are people in every aspect of the hobby who like various extremes, and that's not gonna change.

Posted By: Alaskan_TA

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/28/10 07:15 PM

David has said that he is not going to be selling the sheets several replies ago, so why argue about it anymore? It has become a non-issue.

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/28/10 07:33 PM

Quote:

David has said that he is not going to be selling the sheets several replies ago, so why argue about it anymore? It has become a non-issue.

.......but I have decided to go out and buy a Ford truck just to see if my hypothetical "humor" is actually correct! I promise to make it a point to come here and start another poll asking everyone if they think my findings are true or false! With two strikes (already) against me it may not be too long before I find out!

Posted By: Morty426

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/28/10 08:00 PM

Quote:

Quote:

David has said that he is not going to be selling the sheets several replies ago, so why argue about it anymore? It has become a non-issue.

.......but I have decided to go out and buy a Ford truck just to see if my hypothetical "humor" is actually correct! I promise to make it a point to come here and start another poll asking everyone if they think my findings are true or false! With two strikes (already) against me it may not be too long before I find out!

Posted By: SNK-EYZ

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/28/10 09:19 PM

Quote:

.......but I have decided to go out and buy a Ford truck just to see if my hypothetical "humor" is actually correct!

Please don't do it Dave.
Friends don't let friends drive Fords!

Posted By: kidmopar

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/28/10 09:24 PM

Quote:

Quote:

.......but I have decided to go out and buy a Ford truck just to see if my hypothetical "humor" is actually correct!

Please don't do it Dave.
Friends don't let friends drive Fords!

Make SURE it's a 6.4 Litre DIESEL! Too!

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/28/10 09:26 PM

Quote:

Quote:

.......but I have decided to go out and buy a Ford truck just to see if my hypothetical "humor" is actually correct!

Please don't do it Dave.
Friends don't let friends drive Fords!

Actually with the piece of junk 2005 Ram that I had, my 05 Ford F150 blows that ram POS out of the water and even tows and handles better.

Posted By: CurYellowBird

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/28/10 09:35 PM

Can't beat a cummins diesel

Posted By: b54406barrel

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/28/10 09:43 PM

Quote:

Quote:

David has said that he is not going to be selling the sheets several replies ago, so why argue about it anymore? It has become a non-issue.

.......but I have decided to go out and buy a Ford truck just to see if my hypothetical "humor" is actually correct! I promise to make it a point to come here and start another poll asking everyone if they think my findings are true or false! With two strikes (already) against me it may not be too long before I find out!

Oh good. If you get in to fords, I need a window sticker for my soon-to-be-real boss 429 w/ac & automatic, mustang............

Posted By: 62maxwgn

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/28/10 11:14 PM

Finally,we got away from BC sheet's !

Posted By: HEMICUDA

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/28/10 11:39 PM

Quote:

David has said that he is not going to be selling the sheets several replies ago, so why argue about it anymore? It has become a non-issue.

Yep, you're right he's not, I am. I am very persuasive and will be preparing to take orders in the next week or so for the new BCS. Dave and I will have to work out some of our documentation procedures as it pertains to validation and record keeping.

Sheets will be made for customers that currently has an original without exception. The original must be shipped to me for authentication before a new sheet can be made. Your original will be shipped back along with the perfect "as new" copy.

We will be looking into the possibility of reproducing novelty sheets for cars that do not have an original. These sheets will be easily identified as reproductions.

Do not bother to call and inquire about an authentic sheet for a car that doesn't have one or enough of one to produce a new one from. Like I said, Dave will be very receptive by the time I'm finish with him.

Posted By: HPMike

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/29/10 12:01 AM

Quote:

Quote:

The original must be shipped to me for authentication before a new sheet can be made. Your original will be shipped back along with the perfect "as new" copy.

Either I am too naive to get the joke, or if this is a serious request, I would doubt anyone would risk sending their original BC sheet through the USPS or UPS to get lost or damaged.

No way in hell I would do it. Again, it needs to be asked, why would anyone want an additional copy of their present sheet? If only for display purposes a color copy would be sufficient,I would think, for just about anyone. I suppose maybe some

might want to make an authentic copy and place it back in the seat springs or under the carpet(where, of course no one can see it), but????

MB

Posted By: Rhinodart

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/29/10 12:11 AM

Darn it, I lost the bet!

I thought for sure it would take a couple more weeks before the reproductions began!

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/29/10 12:27 AM

Quote:

Darn it, I lost the bet! I thought for sure it would take a couple more weeks before the reproductions began!

No you didn't Jim. I need to have a little talk with Mike about where I stand on this. Nothing has changed!

Posted By: Alaskan_TA

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/29/10 12:45 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Darn it, I lost the bet! I thought for sure it would take a couple more weeks before the reproductions began!

No you didn't Jim. I need to have a little talk with Mike about where I stand on this. Nothing has changed!

Thank you.

Posted By: hotairballoonpilot

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/29/10 12:46 AM

You know I am on the fence on this one. On one hand I see where this could go REALLY BAD(IE PEOPLE LIKE FREDDIE E that are out to make millions and not a care who they hurt). On the other hand I would love to have one for my 72 340 duster. I bought that car when I was a junior in high school. I never checked it out except that I checked the dash numbers and they were for a 340. I had to have it and ponied up the 1600 bucks for it. Once I got it home I then found the sheet/parts of it and also found out that it had no v.i.n tag. So for me who never plans on selling it(before you guys bash me yes I know some day I will die and that things can change where I might need to sell it BUT I WILL DO WHAT I CAN TO NOT SELL IT!!!!) I would personally love to have a nice new copy of the sheet and the tag. If only there was a way for people like me that both items COULD BE MARKED AS REPRO'S. That would be great. I am one who would use them as displays at a show. Am I dreaming? Maybe maybe not but who knows what the years will bring? I never thought I would see sheet metal coming out like it has been in the past few years as well as the quality of the repro parts that are made. The only bad thing is that even with these cars being so old it take money to get the 'RIGHTS" to put the stamp on them to make them look right. Remember all the stuff that Layson's went through......

Good luck Mike and Dave on this I hope the end results will be for the good of the WHOLE MARKET BASE and wont be abused in a negative way by people who are out to take advantage of people by selling them a car that is not what it really is or reboding a car ect ect ect. Maybe there is a way that a data base could be kept where ever sheet that is reproed be listed on so that everyone could check it out. Hey they do it with all the 'OTHER" registries why not this subject?

Corey

Posted By: Crunchy_Frog

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/29/10 01:27 AM

I've read through all the crap, and walk away shaking my head. Perhaps it's because I don't own a 71 Hemi cuda vert with all the bells and whistles, an 8 track, and a dictaphone. I am not a collector, just a guy who bought a super bee in 1985 and still have it. I didn't buy it expecting to turn a profit. The word "hobby" seems to be getting kicked around a lot. From what I've seen, there are a few lucky people who have turned their hobby into a successful business, good on ya. Find a niche, offer a quality product at a reasonable price. That's the 'merican dream. Then there are those who buy cars as an investment. They spend $100k on something they hope sell for $200k. I've heard somebody whine (no here, was at a show) about how he can only get $90k for his super bird, poor poor man. These are cars.... whether you buy them to drive or to flip. The biggest complaint about the BCS i have read, is that the perceived value of your ultra-rare CAR will be lowered, or that your ultra-rare flip will no longer be ultra rare. All of there sudden, there are going to be ten thousand fakes, but they now have a build sheet. No, I'll never be invited to that elite club, nor will I ever get the secret handshake. I'm just a guy with 1 of the 3695 '69 auto 383 bee coupes, and yes, I do have the BCS.

Peace

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/29/10 02:08 AM

Quote:

No, I'll never be invited to that elite club, nor will I ever get the secret handshake.

Hello John! I am Dave and own a company called ECS Automotive Concepts. First of all I would like to say that people like YOU are the reason that I am privileged to do what I do. I appreciate your humble demeanor but want to let you know that you ARE in fact part of the "elite club". Guys like you actually invented and own the "secret handshake." This hobby has been a foot mat for the "elite" way too long. It belongs to guys just like you, me and the rest of us here!! I am not asking for your business or trying to extend a manipulative, insincere gesture. I simply wanted to let you know that your place in this hobby IS up there with the "Best" because YOU ARE PART of what makes this hobby the "Best"! Take care and enjoy the Cars.

Posted By: BS27R1B

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/29/10 05:17 AM

Now where did they get the documentation for this POS that was built from a copy of some importation registration?

Attached picture 5953375-71whitehemicudaragtoprebodiedFrench4speed.JPG

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/29/10 05:22 AM

Quote:

Now where did they get the documentation for this POS that was built from a copy of some importation registration?

Call and ask them.

Posted By: HEMICUDA

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/29/10 10:44 AM

Quote:

Quote:

No, I'll never be invited to that elite club, nor will I ever get the secret handshake.

Hello John! I am Dave and own a company called ECS Automotive Concepts. First of all I would like to say that people like YOU are the reason that I am privileged to do what I do. I appreciate your humble demeanor but want to let you know that you ARE in fact part of the "elite club". Guys like you actually invented and own the "secret handshake." This hobby has been a foot mat for the "elite" way too long. It belongs to guys just like you, me and the rest of us here!! I am not asking for your business or trying to extend a manipulative, insincere gesture. I simply wanted to let you know that your place in this hobby IS up there with the "Best" because YOU ARE PART of what makes this hobby the "Best"! Take care and enjoy the Cars.

You are absolutely 1,000% correct Mr. DW. As owner of B/E & A Restoration Parts, Inc. I've been in this hobby since dumping yellow in a diaper, at least it seems that way. For the first 25 years being on the other side of the counter and lived the dream of poor quality, dishonesty, greed and deceit. The whole MOPAR experience felt tainted and somewhat dirty with either trying to buy parts or cars. There definitely was the "good guys and buddy club" with a secret hand shake.

I met Dave Walden about 4 years ago and we hit it off right out of the box. His philosophies in business and life in general run concurrent with mine. This hobby is ALL about guys like you John and no one else period! "That holier than thou" self serving crap is over. There is absolutely nothing I wouldn't do for anyone if I can to help them with their car, if business is generated because of it that's great. The MOPAR hobby is slowly transforming, taking it away from those that have molded the rules to satisfy their own agenda. The hobby is passing them by, there are new sheriffs in town with different philosophies kicking the incumbents in the shin and they don't like. To bad, this hobby is the property of all of us, the average "Joe" that makes up 99% of it.

I must be a complete idiot for having a trusting attitude towards people. Someone please tell me how a perfect copy of a piece of paper that already exists is in anyway dishonest or will hurt anything? Please tell me, I can't see it. Wait a minute, I think I got it, some are questioning the integrity and morality of those that MIGHT to it. I see, what a moron I am, I don't think of people that way as being dishonest until they prove otherwise. An honest person generally trust people, a dishonest person would question the intentions of others right out of the box.

DW is still on the other side of the fence on this one, not because of any morality issues but the cost. Figuring 1-1/2 - 2 hours to produce 1 sheet at a labor cost around $25 per hour, not counting the cost to have the sheets printed and the licensing fees, Dave doesn't think the market will bare the expense. The other tough nut is the verification and logistics of acquiring the information off the sheet without a customer having to send their original, I'm not sure I would do that either.

Lastly, remember this hobby is all about you, the average "Joe" and the next time you come across that 1% all mighty tell them to pound salt, your in the majority and now you know it.

Posted By: HEMICUDA

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/29/10 10:49 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Now where did they get the documentation for this POS that was built from a copy of some importation registration?

Call and ask them.

Since you're not going to tell DW, I will. Dave was approched about that car when it surfaced to produce a sheet for it. He was offered a very substancial amount of money to do so, guess what happened, they didn't get one.

Posted By: cataclysm80

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/29/10 11:15 AM

Quote:

Do you think the availability of "reproduction broadcast sheets" undermines the integrity and reputation of those involved with reproducing them?

I'd say NO. I think that a person has a certain amount of integrity and that determines how they do all things in life. Some people have more integrity than others. On the subject of reproduction broadcast sheets, someone with a lot of integrity (if they made them at all) would make only copies, not altered fakes, while someone without much integrity would make whatever was asked of them.

Integrity does not change because of what you are doing, it only affects what you are willing to do and how you do it.

Integrity only changes when there is a moral shift inside of someone. This is not caused by things they do, it is caused by things that happen to them.

Tav

Posted By: pacifica

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/29/10 12:21 PM

Quote:

Now where did they get the documentation for this POS that was built from a copy of some importation registration?

I am curious, where is this picture/car from?
The reason I ask is there used to be a white hemi cuda convertible locally in the early to mid 1980's [northeast,Ohio] that hung out at the dragstrip [Thompson].
I haven't seen or heard of it in a while and was wondering what happened to it?? Anyone know if there is more than 1 white 71' Cuda soft top?

Also, why is it referenced as a pos[peice of s##t]??? It looks gorgeous from the picture posted!!!!

Posted By: 62maxwgn

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/29/10 12:25 PM

Quote:

Now where did they get the documentation for this POS that was built from a copy of some importation registration?

Or the cowl that came off the Indian reservation somewhere around 2002/3.

Posted By: HEMICUDA

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/29/10 12:29 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Now where did they get the documentation for this POS that was built from a copy of some importation registration?

I am curious, where is this picture/car from?
The reason I ask is there used to be a white hemi cuda convertible locally in the early to mid 1980's [northeast,Ohio] that hung out at the dragstrip [Thompson].
I haven't seen or heard of it in a while and was wondering what happened to it?? Anyone know if there is more than 1 white 71' Cuda soft top?

Also, why is it referenced as a pos[peice of s##t]??? It looks gorgeous from the picture posted!!!!

The one you are referencing is a 70 not 71, I know the owner of that car. The one posted is suspect at best.

Posted By: gtx6970

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/29/10 12:43 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Now where did they get the documentation for this POS that was built from a copy of some importation registration?

Or the cowl that came off the Indian reservation somewhere around 2002/3.

Isn't that one purple ?

Posted By: hemi_tyme

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/29/10 01:29 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Now where did they get the documentation for this POS that was built from a copy of some importation registration?

Or the cowl that came off the Indian reservation somewhere around 2002/3.

Isn't that one purple ?

Yes!and numbers matching also

Attached picture 5953622-2312816-71hemicudarag4.jpg

Posted By: hemi_tyme

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/29/10 01:32 PM

Attached picture 5953628-2313406-71hemicudarag.jpg

Posted By: Aero426

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/29/10 01:40 PM

Quote:

I must be a complete idiot for having a trusting attitude towards people. Someone please tell me how a perfect copy of a piece of paper that already exists is in anyway dishonest or will hurt anything? Please tell me, I can't see it.

All I want is the original document. I don't care about the condition. I do not want to see the line blurred 20 years down the road when somehow for whatever reason, the two pieces of paper are separated, and all I wind up with is the "perfect" copy.

In other words, I want to be sure I have the real Declaration of Independence, not the one from the "museum gift shop".

Posted By: anlauto

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/29/10 01:54 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I must be a complete idiot for having a trusting attitude towards people. Someone please tell me how a perfect copy of a piece of paper that already exists is in anyway dishonest or will hurt anything? Please tell me, I can't see it.

All I want is the original document. I don't care about the condition. I do not want to see the line blurred 20 years down the road when somehow for whatever reason, the two pieces of paper are separated, and all I wind up with is the "perfect" copy.

In other words, I want to be sure I have the real Declaration of Independence, not the one from the "museum gift shop".

Posted By: HEMICUDA

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/29/10 01:59 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Now where did they get the documentation for this POS that was built from a copy of some importation registration?

Or the cowl that came off the Indian reservation somewhere around 2002/3.

Isn't that one purple ?

Yes!and numbers matching also

The almighty said it's numbers matching so what's the big deal? I know of a perfect numbers matching rust free Sassy 71 6pak Cuda that had less than that to work with.

Posted By: charger440sixpak

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/29/10 02:54 PM

Broadcast sheets don't defraud people, people defraud people...

Posted By: gtx6970

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/29/10 02:57 PM

Biggest Issue I see with a perfect undectable from original repop broadcast sheets, same goes for data tags to btw.
Because, somewhere ,sometime somehow somebody is going to take said perfect reproduction and alter history for monetary gain. BTW, I also feel the same way about repop data tags and they don't carry nearly the significance the sheet does.
IF , you have the sheet at least you can get a resonable facsimile of a tag made,and in most cases with minimul effort it can still be distinguished from an original.

Theres too many things on the sheet that siginify individual characteristics of the car it's coded for. Such as - shocks , steering column style and color, hubcaps or rallyes, build date, VON #'s , the list goes on and on.

Take a lynch road car for example, outside of the basic options. There isn't much on the tag to go on as far as restoration to OE stock, These cars you NEED the sheet.

Believe me, I can truly understand the needs or wants to have a perfect repop sheet. And I truly believe Dave Waldon has no ill intentions, but that doesn't mean the next owner of said sheet has these same intentions.
But like a poster mentioned earlier.
What if, and I know IF is a very big word.
Lets say a vehicle owner has both the original AND a perfect reproduction. 10 years down the road the owner passes away and had already taken the forsight to seperate the 2 sheets. Yet his decendants can only find the repop. Any potential new owner questions the validity of said repop, value WILL be decreased as a result. Thats a fact.
Case in point, the 2 Hemi cuda verts already mentioned have a questionable history that will follow them till 'we all' return to dust.

Posted By: Purestocker

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/29/10 03:02 PM

There was more to the car than what is pictured.

Posted By: BS27R1B

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/29/10 03:24 PM

Quote:

There was more to the car than what is pictured.

Oh yes that is right!

It all started with a door with a VIN sticker found on another car.

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/29/10 05:47 PM

Quote:

Biggest Issue I see with a perfect undectable from original repop broadcast sheets, same goes for data tags to btw.
Because, somewhere ,sometime somehow somebody is going to take said perfect reproduction and alter history for monetary gain. BTW, I also feel the same way about repop data tags and they don't carry nearly the significance the sheet does.
IF , you have the sheet at least you can get a resonable facsimile of a tag made,and in most cases with minimul effort it can still be distinguished from an original.

Theres too many things on the sheet that siginify individual characteristics of the car it's coded for. Such as - shocks , steering column style and color, hubcaps or rallyes, build date, VON #'s , the list goes on and on.

Take a lynch road car for example, outside of the basic options. There isn't much on the tag to go on as far as restoration to OE stock, These cars you NEED the sheet.

Believe me, I can truly understand the needs or wants to have a perfect repop sheet. And I truly believe Dave Waldon has no ill intentions, but that doesn't mean the next owner of said sheet has these same intentions.
But like a poster mentioned earlier.
What if, and I know IF is a very big word.
Lets say a vehicle owner has both the original AND a perfect reproduction. 10 years down the road the owner passes away and had already taken the forsight to seperate the 2 sheets. Yet his decendants can only find the repop. Any potential new owner questions the validity of said repop, value WILL be decreased as a result. Thats a fact.
Case in point, the 2 Hemi cuda verts already mentioned have a questionable history that will follow them till 'we all' return to dust.

Bill,

As I often like to do I will play devils advocate here. People are not considering ALL the possibilities regarding reprinted,repo, copies or altered originals. So, in your example above think of this.
If in the same senerio the guy had only the ORIGINAL and put it away where his aires knew not where, it would be the same or worse store. There would then be nothing to prove what they wanted to prove with the sheet. If the guy had a color copy it would be the same story as well. What others have failed to hit upon here is that with color copies it gives you unlimited attempts to modify the info on the sheet. So if this is done and the original goes missing THEN what do you believe???

Posted By: Scatransit

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/29/10 06:29 PM

In either of those cases, no BS is probably better than a copy/repro...

If I was selling a family heirloom and a potential buyer backed out because of a suspect document (even a legit copy) it would really suck...

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/29/10 06:37 PM

Quote:

Because, somewhere ,sometime somehow somebody is going to take said perfect reproduction and alter history for monetary gain....

I agree with your point (to a degree) Bill but can't your way of thinking or logic be applied to almost anything? That concept didn't stop the U.S. Treasury from issuing Money or Credit Cards or Blank Checks or.....?????!!!!! You "might" have a car accident today but should that stop you from getting in and driving your car? At what point do the honest guys (hopefully the majority) stop living their lives due to negative possibilities posed by the crooks?!?

Posted By: Stewpar

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/29/10 06:57 PM

I think there are a lot of greater issues out there in our hobby today that we should worry more about than reproduction broadcast sheets. What's the first thing we do when we want to validate a car? Look at the VIN! I agree with the other poster, that this is the true meaning of a vehicles worth. After your verify the vin, you look at body numbers (applicable by year). This is where you can open up a very large can of worms. I have personally witnessed very rare and expensive cars back halfed, body swapped, call it what you want due to rust, etc. What's worth more? A completely numbers matching '70 'Cuda 440-6bbl Convertible with a broadcast sheet, matching drivetrain, body numbers, fender tage etc. that has had a complete body swap or an original with no broadcast sheet? After purchasing the afforementioned car and finding out that it was a body swap, etc., now it seems that there is a completely different perceived value than prior to purchasing? I am of the opinion that when you replace a certain percentage of original sheet metal, that the original car ceases to exist and should live the rest of it's life with an asterisk!

We have individuals filing down id pads and stamping matching numbers. There are others selling titles along with the VIN plate and fender tags. There is already someone selling re-pop broadcast sheets that look like they are 40+ years old on Ebay, etc. etc. etc.

To me, this is the low man on the totem pole in my eyes. There are enough enthusiast's out there that will hopefully work together to keep us aware of the cars that have been altered, swapped, etc. I have had the pleasure to deal with a ton of really great people in our community, but like anything else in life, there are always a few bad eggs to stay away from. It is from these situations that we learn who we can trust and who to stay away from. I am in it for the love of these cars. I buy a car, restore it, and move on the the next one. The only ones that I feel are going to get hurt by this are top 10% dealing with Hemi's etc. and those who are flipping them.

Lastly, it is my opinion that the broadcast sheet is a nice piece to have and does ad intrinsic value. However, the lack of a broadcast sheet doesn't mean a car is worth any less as long as the rest of the important parts are there along with any other documentation that goes along with said vehicle. In the end it all comes down to "Caveat Emptor" Buyer Beware!

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/29/10 07:08 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Because, somewhere ,sometime somehow somebody is going to take said perfect reproduction and alter history for monetary gain....

I agree with your point (to a degree) Bill but can't your way of thinking or logic be applied to almost anything? That concept didn't stop the U.S. Treasury from issuing Money or Credit Cards or Blank Checks or.....?????!!!!! You "might" have a car accident today but should that stop you from getting in and driving your car? At what point do the honest guys (hopefully the majority) stop living their lives due to negative possibilities posed by the crooks?!?

Again, along with this, remember that there are people out there that have an original 383/440 car with the original BCS that have or can be altered to reflect a Hemi car or just a switch to a 4 speed from auto OR add options. An ORIGINAL BCS doesn't mean it has not been altered.

Posted By: gomangoRTSE

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/29/10 07:10 PM

must be a complete idiot for having a trusting attitude towards people. Someone please tell me how a perfect copy of a piece of paper that already exists is in anyway dishonest or will hurt anything? Please tell me, I can't see it. Wait a minute, I think I got it, some are questioning the integrity and morality of those that MIGHT to it. I see, what a moron I am, I don't think of people that way as being dishonest until they prove otherwise. An honest person generally trust people, a dishonest person would question the intentions of others right out of the box.

__________________________________________________

What a strange concept thinking that people are otherwise honest and law abiding, instead of assujming and fearing they are thieves and scroundrels and out to cheat everyone. I cant hide in my house everyday fearing others and what they might do. There will always be people in life who will find some way to beat the syetem. Monetary, food stamp, or whatever, some people will steal and defraud, but we dont stop living in our society out of fear of the few out there.

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/29/10 07:20 PM

Quote:

I think there are a lot of greater issues out there in our hobby today that we should worry more about than reproduction broadcast sheets. What's the first thing we do when we want to validate a car? Look at the VIN! I agree with the other poster, that this is the true meaning of a vehicles worth. After your verify the vin, you look at body numbers (applicable by year). This is where you can open up a very large can of worms. I have personally witnessed very rare and expensive cars back halfed, body swapped, call it what you want due to rust, etc. What's worth more? A completely numbers matching '70 'Cuda 440-6bbl Convertible with a broadcast sheet, matching drivetrain, body numbers, fender tage etc. that has had a complete body swap or an original with no broadcast sheet? After purchasing the afforementioned car and finding out that it was a body swap, etc., now it seems that there is a completely different perceived value than prior to purchasing? I am of the opinion that when you replace a certain percentage of original sheet metal, that the original car ceases to exist and should live the rest of it's life with an asterisk!

We have individuals filing down id pads and stamping matching numbers. There are others selling titles along with the VIN plate and fender tags. There is already someone selling re-pop broadcast sheets that look like they are 40+ years old on Ebay, etc. etc. etc.

To me, this is the low man on the totem pole in my eyes. There are enough enthusiast's out there that will hopefully work together to keep us aware of the cars that have been altered, swapped, etc. I have had the pleasure to deal with a ton of really great people in our community, but like anything else in life, there are always a few bad eggs to stay away from. It is from these situations that we learn who we can trust and who to stay away from. I am in it for the love of these cars. I buy a car, restore it, and move on the the next one. The only ones that I feel are going to get hurt by this are top 10% dealing with Hemi's etc. and those who are flipping them.

Lastly, it is my opinion that the broadcast sheet is a nice piece to have and does ad intrinsic value. However, the lack of a broadcast sheet doesn't mean a car is worth any less as long as the rest of the important parts are there along with any other documentation that goes along with said vehicle. In the end it all comes down to "Caveat Emptor" Buyer Beware

!

I am only responding to the bolded areas of your posts as the rest of it has to do with the rebody debate which has been beat to death, and i don't want to see this thread side tracked.

Of course as from my previous post I agree with this.

Yes, there is MUCH more to be concerned about when looking to purchase one of these old cars and the BCS should be one of the last considerations.

How many people will ignor buying a car because it has no sheet?

How many people will not buy an L.A. built car that the vast majority of them had no sheet?

Is this fair to slight a car for not having something that the factory never intentionally ment to leave in the car in the first place?

Regarding the valuation of a BCS how do you determine if it is an ADDED value if it has one vs. a DEDUCTION if it doesn't have one?

To me the simple answer to the above questions is ELIMINATE the value of it completely and let the V.I.N. and known factory indicators of the individual car speak for themselves.

Posted By: ScottSmith_Harms

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/29/10 07:24 PM

Quote:

What's the first thing we do when we want to validate a car? Look at the VIN! I agree with the other poster, that this is the true meaning of a vehicles worth.

The first thing? Maybe so, but it's just the beginning. The next thing you'd need to do is determine if it's the original VIN tag or not. Even then all the VIN tag will tell you are the basics, Model-Engine-Plant-Model Year- Sequence Number, that's it!

It tells you NOTHING about the other options that the car originally had, not even the most basic options like transmission or body color, and sometimes a single option can drastically change the level of interest/desirability/value, etc. that the car might garner.

Posted By: Aero426

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/29/10 07:31 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Because, somewhere ,sometime somehow somebody is going to take said perfect reproduction and alter history for monetary gain....

I agree with your point (to a degree) Bill but can't your way of thinking or logic be applied to almost anything? That concept didn't stop the U.S. Treasury from issuing Money or Credit Cards or Blank Checks or.....?????!!!!! You "might" have a car accident today but should that stop you from getting in and driving your car? At what point do the honest guys (hopefully the majority) stop living their lives due to negative possibilities posed by the crooks?!?

One thing that really needs to be considered as a custodian of these cars is to exercise some forward thinking, and to consider some of the unintended consequences of producing undetectable duplicate sheets. There are a fair number of folks here who have expressed concern about the perfect reproductions that you are capable of. In the Mopar world, build sheets are a Pandoras Box that should remain untouched.

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/29/10 07:44 PM

Quote:

Quote:

What's the first thing we do when we want to validate a car? Look at the VIN! I agree with the other poster, that this is the true meaning of a vehicles worth.

The first thing? Maybe so, but it's just the beginning. The next thing you'd need to do is determine if it's the original VIN tag or not. Even then all the VIN tag will tell you are the basics, Model-Engine-Plant-Model Year- Sequence Number, that's it!

It tells you NOTHING about the other options that the car originally had, not even the most basic options like transmission or body color, and sometimes a single option can drastically change the level of interest/desirability/value, etc. that the car might garner.

I agree with much of this. However regarding the V.I.N. plate being REAL, for me, if it passes DMVs inspection or is not visably suspect or undectable as compared to others that is good enough for me. Remember, it is the ONLY thing that carries any FEDERAL PENALTIES for tampering with. You can't say that about a fender tag, BCS or body ID numbers for that matter. I refer you back to my original post in this thread on page 2 that says:

4. The majority of the members on Moparts that think the BS is so important don't even understand how much of it is specific to THAT particular car. Example, lets use a 1969 Charger R/T. It came with either a 440 or a Hemi, which is coded in the V.I.N. Other items that are specific to THIS particular car that will be different from any other 1969 Charger R/T on the BS are the specific options that were ordered. The Hemi engine triggered certain items over the 440 and were reflected on the BS, but these very same items are identifable on the subject car by simply reseaching GGs white books which are basically just a cumulative source of info gathered from parts books and sales codes so what do you really need a BS for? Sure there is a VON and a sequence number on it and if the fender tag is missing you won't know these thing, but why do we really care? Why do we care what position it came down the line vs. any other car? We know that the SPD portion of the VON is just a GUESS as to when it was actually made so why do we care if we know the true SPD given by the factory. If it is really important to someone they can research registries for their car and compare V.I.N.S/VONS of other cars assembled at the same plant to determine just as accurate a time period. My point is that there is VERY LITTLE that the BS tells us that we can't figure out based on what we already know from the V.I.N. info that really effects the value of the car or can't be figure out from scrutinizing the particular car. Yes, there are some exceptions for some models/years regarding options like a shaker hood for value and some codes that are effected by things like axle packages but these codes are also easy enought to determine what triggers them on a specific car.

5. I have always said, PUT YOUR FAITH IN THE V.I.N. which many have poo pooed. They claim that it too can be reproduced or changed. Yes, that is true, but it is the ONE thing that carries HEAVY FEDERAL PENALTIES for doing so. The ONLY legal identifier for an old auto is the V.I.N. plate and it's matching title. The title is easily obtained but the V.I.N. plate is an entirely different item. Mopar owners of these old car are lucky that the V.I.N. spells out the model and engine that account for 90% of the value (or potential value) of thes old cars. For the most part the trans. and the color combo (which is a matter of taste) are the only things that really make any kind of economic sense regarding the value of most specific cars. Why? because the cost of adding an option to a car is outweighed by the cost of purchasing and installing it, so there is no economic advantage, only something someone would do for their own enjoyment.

To ME, the bottom line is that for MOPARS the broadcast sheet does not carry NEARLY the weight that it does for some other makes that don't have the luxury of a model and engine identifing V.I.N.
WAY TOO MUCH value is given to a broadcast sheet.

Posted By: Stewpar

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/29/10 07:47 PM

Quote:

Quote:

What's the first thing we do when we want to validate a car? Look at the VIN! I agree with the other poster, that this is the true meaning of a vehicles worth.

The first thing? Maybe so, but it's just the beginning. The next thing you'd need to do is determine if it's the original VIN tag or not. Even then all the VIN tag will tell you are the basics, Model-Engine-Plant-Model Year- Sequence Number, that's it!

It tells you NOTHING about the other options that the car originally had, not even the most basic options like transmission or body color, and sometimes a single option can drastically change the level of interest/desirability/value, etc. that the car might garner.

I completely agree with you, the VIN is just the start. It will tell us how rare the car is and we go from there. Is it numbers matching? Is the fender tag present? These alone are enough to set it's rarity/value. The broadcast sheet will further separate the car, but at that point it's only semantics IMHO.

Posted By: pacifica

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/29/10 07:54 PM

I have read this thread and the previous as well.
I originally did not think repop b/sheets were a good idea.
However, it seems to me that we all have the freedom to restore/rebuild/rebody/repaint/customize these cars as we all see fit.
Like DAVE W has mentioned previously, just because it is "public info" now that dead nuts b/sheets can be done, now it is a problem?? Nothing has changed other than now "we know".
Come on, like it has all been good up till now?

If Dave W or anyone else broke the code then they should "reap the rewards" [if there are any]

Based on all the thinking as I understand it, the only cars worth anything are the ones that are untouched originals anyways. All the rest are just recreations to one degree or another.

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/29/10 08:02 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

What's the first thing we do when we want to validate a car? Look at the VIN! I agree with the other poster, that this is the true meaning of a vehicles worth.

The first thing? Maybe so, but it's just the beginning. The next thing you'd need to do is determine if it's the original VIN tag or not. Even then all the VIN tag will tell you are the basics, Model-Engine-Plant-Model Year- Sequence Number, that's it!

It tells you NOTHING about the other options that the car originally had, not even the most basic options like transmission or body color, and sometimes a single option can drastically change the level of interest/desirability/value, etc. that the car might garner.

I completely agree with you, the VIN is just the start. It will tell us how rare the car is and we go from there. Is it numbers matching? Is the fender tag present? These alone are enough to set it's rarity/value. The broadcast sheet will further separate the car, but at that point it's only semantics IMHO.

To me the V.I.N. is the beginning AND the end.

We all know that there are undetectable FT and BCS out there that did NOT come with the car so to me, it is a matter of believing in the one item that is enforced by FEDERAL LAW. Sure, there are some phoney V.I.N. tags out there, but compared to repo FTs it is a miniscle amount and that is only because there is a FEDERAL LAW against it.

Posted By: Purestocker

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/29/10 08:03 PM

Quote:

Quote:

What's the first thing we do when we want to validate a car? Look at the VIN! I agree with the other poster, that this is the true meaning of a vehicles worth.

The first thing? Maybe so, but it's just the beginning. The next thing you'd need to do is determine if it's the original VIN tag or not. Even then all the VIN tag will tell you are the basics, Model-Engine-Plant-Model Year- Sequence Number, that's it!

It tells you NOTHING about the other options that the car originally had, not even the most basic options like transmission or body color, and sometimes a single option can drastically change the level of interest/desirability/value, etc. that the car might garner.

I am with you Scott, I found a 69 HEMI road runner in a cow pasture years ago. it had the vin tag, but the under hood tag had bean removed, the drive train was ALL missing, along with the hood and K-member and interior, I could see the cars original color and it had a shifter on the column, but it was very hard for me anyway to justify purchasing the car with little to go on as far as how the car was optioned, a short time later the owner found the under hood tag, I bought the car and now it is being restored, with the price of a restoration these day's it would be very hard to justify buying all of the parts needed to save this car, my point is the vin told me what the basic car was, but as Scott pointed out, It would be hard to tell everything the car was originally without the tag. I know a Hemi car changes the mindset a bit because there is more potential money in the end if a person was ever to sell it, but any car that you want to truly restore would need more than just the vin IMO. as far as the build sheet goes. I think copies should be made for 50 cents on a copy machine, Rich

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/29/10 08:07 PM

Quote:

I have read this thread and the previous as well.
I originally did not think repop b/sheets were a good idea.
However, it seems to me that we all have the freedom to restore/rebuild/rebody/repaint/customize these cars as we all see fit.
Like DAVE W has mentioned previously, just because it is "public info" now that dead nuts b/sheets can be done, now it is a problem?? Nothing has changed other than now "we know".
Come on, like it has all been good up till now?

If Dave W or anyone else broke the code then they should "reap the rewards" [if there are any]

Based on all the thinking as I understand it, the only cars worth anything are the ones that are untouched originals anyways. All the rest are just recreations to one degree or another.

That is probably one of the best thought out statements of this entire thread.

Regardless of what a person STARTS with, once it is restored there is no REAL way to tell what "liberities" someone has taken in light of what we know is out there to support any changes that could be made.

To me, the above statement says it all, there are restored cars and there are originals and really nothing in bewtween.

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/29/10 08:19 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

What's the first thing we do when we want to validate a car? Look at the VIN! I agree with the other poster, that this is the true meaning of a vehicles worth.

The first thing? Maybe so, but it's just the beginning. The next thing you'd need to do is determine if it's the original VIN tag or not. Even then all the VIN tag will tell you are the basics, Model-Engine-Plant-Model Year- Sequence Number, that's it!

It tells you NOTHING about the other options that the car originally had, not even the most basic options like transmission or body color, and sometimes a single option can drastically change the level of interest/desirability/value, etc. that the car might garner.

I am with you Scott, I found a 69 HEMI road runner in a cow pasture years ago. it had the vin tag, but the under hood tag had bean removed, the drive train was ALL missing, along with the hood and K-member and interior, I could see the cars original color and it had a shifter on the column, but it was very hard for me anyway to justify purchasing the car with little to go on as far as how the car was optioned, a short time later the owner found the under hood tag, I bought the car and now it is being restored, with the price of a restoration these day's it would be very hard to justify buying all of the parts needed to save this car, my point is the vin told me what the basic car was, but as Scott pointed out, It would be hard to tell everything the car was originally without the tag. I know a Hemi car changes the mindset a bit because there is more potential money in the end if a person was ever to sell it, but any car that you want to truly restore would need more than just the vin IMO. as far as the build sheet goes. I think copies should be made for 50 cents on a copy machine, Rich

Your example above is a PERFECT example of what i have been saying.

You knew from the V.I.N. and the inspection of the car that it was a Hemi column automatic which accounts for 90% or more of the cars value or potential value. The fender tag and broadcast sheet will tell you what options it had but again, those options if not present that have to be purchased and added by you or a dealer when it was new cost more than they add to the value of the car. Some people want them some don't. They are all bolt on items anyway so what is the big deal? If you can't PROVE they were born on the car remove them.

I would have NEVER passed on purchasing that car based on it not having the fender tag as you described it. Was it a Lynch Rd. Built car? If so, the FT was going to have very little info on it anyway.

People often loose sight of the big picture getting caught up in the details.

Posted By: gomangoRTSE

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/29/10 08:21 PM

Well if nothing else is certain. The opposing views on the topic are split right down the the middle. 140 votes and 6 votes seperate it. I feel this is an issue that divides us all right down the middle. No clear "mindset" either way, and no solid majority. I imagine we could debate this for months and the members, (or members of this website) would still be split.

Posted By: toplescuda

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/29/10 08:28 PM

i wouldnt mind having a bs sheet for my 70 barracuda (or any other paper work for that matter) its got the paper from galen and been regester with the cuda convert site im the 3 rd owner and i know the names of the other 2 owners(2nd owner only had it bout 3 years) iv never looked under the seat but i think the covers have been replaced so...i would care if the sheet said in big letters on it that its a repo or not orignal just something kind of neat i have the orignal window sticker and showing who it was sold to
all the # match and have fender tag the build sheet is justa peice of neat paper that i can/will live without
would it make my car worth more prob not(bh27L0B) to me its just cool to have something that old surive all the years and stay with the car(for people that have them) anyway just rambling on carry on lol

Posted By: 62maxwgn

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/29/10 09:12 PM

The wording I see most in better than half the post's is either,"worth more" or "value".I guess that means it's all about the money.

Like I said earlier,the car in my avitar never had a BCS,guess that makes it a worthless P.O.S.

And a little addition,car was finished 18yrs. ago.Still looks good,still runs good,gets about 1K a year and "never" once was concerned about not having a BCS.

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/29/10 09:30 PM

Quote:

The wording I see most in better than half the post's is either,"worth more" or "value".I guess that means it's all about the money. Like I said earlier,the car in my avitar never had a BS,guess that makes it a worthless P.O.S.

Make no mistake Bill, this thread subject IS ABSOLUTELY ALL ABOUT THE MONEY. As I have stated throughout this thread the BCS should have very little value, but SOME in the hobby have chosen to THINK it adds more than i personally think it is worth.

What do you care anyway, your going to be buryied in that car.

Posted By: Scatransit

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/29/10 11:16 PM

I don't think an original BS, or absence of, adds or subtracts to the value of an authentic car...but it certainly does boost its desireability...

How about this: 2 identical cars...survivors lets say...priced the same...one with, one without...both legit cars...Which one would you buy?

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/29/10 11:36 PM

Quote:

I don't think an original BS, or absence of, adds or subtracts to the value of an authentic car...but it certainly does boost its desireability...

How about this: 2 identical cars...survivors lets say...priced the same...one with, one without...both legit cars...Which one would you buy?

Personally I would buy either without hesitation. Yes, the BCS would be a bonus but i would not assign any signifigant value to the one with the sheet.

Posted By: RCKTMN

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/29/10 11:58 PM

Hi everyone,

I will add my opinion that it should only be done for someone who has their original BCS. And, I agree with an earlier poster about keeping track of the "replacement/display" versions in an easily verifiable manner. I would not personally consider a car to be worth less if it came with a 'new' BCS along with its original.
On a personal note, I am building my own dream car out of a '74 'Cuda that will end up appearing like a '71 while probably having either a modern 6.1 HEMI or a Viper V10. I would love to have an original appearing BCS with my information on it. This would include the original 1974 VIN#, and the proper codes of the options I include, with special codes (perhaps modern ones) for the engine and trans, and custom suspension/brake systems. I would like for a line across the top to read "Custom Built to Paul's dream", for example. Perhaps with a Disclaimer and Credit by the manufacturer. This would be strictly for shows as a novelty piece. I know that a lot of other members out there would like a quality piece like this for their displays at car shows.
I'm hoping that this approach might be considered, as well.

With respect to all,
Paul

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/30/10 05:14 AM

Quote:

How about this: 2 identical cars...survivors lets say...priced the same...one with, one without...both legit cars...Which one would you buy?

The one I liked the best!

Besides everyone talking about "worth" and "value" the constant theme in this thread seems to be based on personal views and desires. I have classic cars that I have never driven. I get ridiculed and made fun of about it all the time! I constantly hear the proverbial, "They were meant to be driven! Use them for what they were built for!" As it relates to this Build Sheet subject matter, everyone should ask themselves one question. Why do so many assume that their interpretation of "Automobile 101", should be THE VIEW for everyone to follow? For illustration, lets use this point of view which is CONSTANTLY being preached on this forum: "These cars should be driven and used for what they were built and intended for."

Do the ones who preach that notion LITERALLY mean it?!? The immediate question that comes to my mind is....based on whose "use"?

The guy that bought it for "work" transportation but also to have a little "fast fun" every now and then? Or the guy who bought it exclusively to drive to work but also used it as his Family vehicle? Or the person who bought it as a second car to use sparingly and only on the weekends? Or the woman (that is right...they liked them too) who used it to go shopping or take afternoon drives? Some people actually DID buy these cars just to sit in their garage and look Cool! I could go on an on but you get the point!

My question is for those who consistently preach that "you have to drive them" or "you can't do this or that with them"! Do you guys use your cars as your main mode of transportation to get back and forth to work? Do you take them out even when it rains or snows? Do you use them to go shopping or a drive across the country for your Vacation? I would bet NOT! The point is that there are 100 different reasons for the way people used their cars back in the day. Almost none of us look at these cars in the same light as did the original owners! It is completely closed minded and selfish for ANYONE to tell another person what they "should" or "shouldn't" feel based exclusively on THEIR personal beliefs. Not to stir up a can of worms but I wonder how many car owners from 1970 would tell the "Racing" guys today, "I can't believe you would butcher up a perfectly good car just to go racing! When I bought a "Hot Rod" we used them for going to the Drive In, tooling around town, going to the Burger joint with your buddies or parking with your Girlfriend at Lover's Lane." Isn't THAT what they were originally used for?!?

I didn't want to drastically change thoughts here but I wanted to point out that no one person has all the right answers for the material that has been "polled" thus far. "Diversity" is just as real of an issue as the issues are themselves!

Posted By: Crunchy_Frog

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/30/10 10:56 AM

Dave,

I have said that I believe cars should be driven. I say it and believe it. That doesn't mean i think they should be driven every day, in rain and snow. I drive mine mainly on the weekends. Sometimes to and from work. One time i drove it to work and had to put it on a roll back to get it home, but that another story. I don't understand why anyone who collects classic would never drive them. I don't understand baseball card collections, comic book collections, coin collections, and stamp, collections, or quantum physcis. If you take enjoyment from just knowing you have a classic car and trailer it to shows... like others have said, it's your car, do with it as you wish. I won't knock you for that, but I may give you a hard time about it (all in good humor of course). A friend of mine once told me, "drive a new car, you'll turn heads for days, drive a classic car and you'll turn heads for years."

Posted By: Aero426

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/30/10 01:58 PM

Quote:

How about this: 2 identical cars...survivors lets say...priced the same...one with, one without...both legit cars...Which one would you buy?

Difficult to answer. On the surface the car with the build sheet would win. However, other documentation including a continuous chain of ownership and documented history from new is worth quite a bit. Maybe you just like the "feel" of the car without the sheet, or the way it drives.

The build sheet is not the ONLY factor to consider when evaluating the legitimacy of a car. But it is very relevant, particularly in the more high end Mopars. With few exceptions, a high end car without an original build sheet probably gets some kind of a haircut price-wise compared to one that does.

Different marques of cars have different ways of evaulating the provenance of their cars. My Mercury Cyclone Spoiler II had no build sheet (most of them don't). Fortunately, we have Kevin Marti and his access to the Ford warranty database to tell us more than we need to know about the car. In the case of Mopars, since we don't have that information available, the build sheet becomes a more important component to us That said, I see no reason to throw another wrinkle into the process with reproduction sheets.

Posted By: 2fast4yourBrain

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/30/10 03:42 PM

Build sheet is the ONLY proof of these valuable options:

- four-speed
- fresh air package
- color

These three items can make anywhere between $10k-$30k price diff than those cars w/o those options (compared to automatic-equipped cars for ex.).

other options can add between $5k-15k, like:

- PW
- spoilers
- stripes
- axle packages
- window louvres
- AC (debatable about its worth)
- fog lights/light packages

I just don't see the point of making an exact copy of the original if you have an original.

Put the original in the safety dep. box and make a photocopy for car shows.

Hobby is too fraught w/fraud and deceit.

Posted By: Alaskan_TA

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/30/10 03:59 PM

Just to toss another "value" into the mix.....

I have sent out several original broadcast sheets to folks over the years. Some send a donation, usually between $5.00 & $50.00

Others send in items they have found to keep the wheel rolling.

Some do not even bother to say thank you & some do say thanks but do not reimburse me for postage.

So, the monetary value is negligible, but it sure does feel good.

Any known history about a car will help with the sale. Having an original broadcast sheet, literally a whole page on the car's history is a good thing.

Determining any monetary value is up to the seller & buyer.

Posted By: 62maxwgn

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/30/10 04:12 PM

Quote:

Build sheet is the ONLY proof of these valuable options:

- four-speed
- fresh air package
- color

These three items can make anywhere between $10k-$30k price diff than those cars w/o those options (compared to automatic-equipped cars for ex.).

other options can add between $5k-15k, like:

- PW
- spoilers
- stripes
- axle packages
- window louvres
- AC (debatable about its worth)
- fog lights/light packages

I just don't see the point of making an exact copy of the original if you have an original.

Put the original in the safety dep. box and make a photocopy for car shows.

Hobby is too fraught w/fraud and deceit.

Actually it seem's to be more of a business anymore than it is a hobby.

Posted By: A12

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/30/10 04:58 PM

Quote:

Actually it seem's to be more of a business anymore than it is a hobby.

Bill,

I don't know how many times I've said; "Want to ruin your hobby, make a living out of it". (Don't ask me how I know

).

MikeR

Posted By: Rhinodart

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/30/10 11:47 PM

I ask myself that everyday...

Posted By: Morty426

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 04/30/10 11:59 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Actually it seem's to be more of a business anymore than it is a hobby.

Bill, I don't know how many times I've said; "Want to ruin your hobby, make a living out of it". (Don't ask me how I know ).

MikeR

Ain't that the truth.

Posted By: YYZ

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 05/01/10 12:01 AM

Build sheets have been and will continue to be available to wrongdoers regardless of the opinions of board members.

IMHO I would rather see reproductions available publicly, with a system of checks/balances and transparency rather than leaving it to the Mopar underworld.

The BCS is one of many potential data points on a car. An important one, but not the only one.

If one is into Mopars for the monetary value, the most valuable cars will be the survivors with uninterrupted/unblemished histories, ownership and documentation. Followed closely by top-flight restored cars with similar provenance.

When these debates crop up, I am always astounded at the original "Gone in 60 Seconds". Filmed in 1973, the thieves were already moving numbers and transferring the build sheet from the U-code Challenger R/T stolen at the beginning of the film. The dark side has known about the numbers for a long time; wishing won't make it go away.

Posted By: 69RTSE

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 05/01/10 12:37 AM

Quote:

Build sheet is the ONLY proof of these valuable options:

- four-speed
- fresh air package
- color

These three items can make anywhere between $10k-$30k price diff than those cars w/o those options (compared to automatic-equipped cars for ex.).

Actually, aren't these on the fender tag? The tag on my '69 Charger tells me what transmision, the color of the car, what color stripe, A/C, etc.

Here is a different perspective...let's say Chrysler had kept excellent records. With just a phone call to Chrysler and your VIN they could provide you with an exact duplicate of your build sheet. Wouldn't you want a nice, new, crisp one even if you had the crumbly old original? I would. From what it sounds like, that is the service Dave wants to provide, the only problem is there are no such records. Dave's solution to maintain the "credibilty" of duplicate sheets was to limit new copies to only those who have originals. (Unfortunately, most of us don't.

)

I don't think that duplicates made under these guidelines would be a bad thing. I think the problem arises when someone else starts to make duplicates, and they don't have the same integrity as Dave and ECS. Now we can't tell legitamate "dupicates" from just plain bogus sheets. Unless ECS would have a number to call to verify whether a suspect sheet is an authorized copy or not, 99% of us wouldn't be able to tell if it's legit or bogus.

The smart shopper would have to assume it's a bogus sheet, and so what benefit to the seller would that be? Whether Dave decides to make them or not, I sure others will. I'm sure they have been for years. Personally, if I wanted a duplicate, I'd rather have mine done by a reputible company like ECS seems to be...

Posted By: 2fast4yourBrain

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 05/01/10 02:40 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Build sheet is the ONLY proof of these valuable options:

- four-speed
- fresh air package
- color

These three items can make anywhere between $10k-$30k price diff than those cars w/o those options (compared to automatic-equipped cars for ex.).

Actually, aren't these on the fender tag? The tag on my '69 Charger tells me what transmision, the color of the car, what color stripe, A/C, etc.

Here is a different perspective...let's say Chrysler had kept excellent records. With just a phone call to Chrysler and your VIN they could provide you with an exact duplicate of your build sheet. Wouldn't you want a nice, new, crisp one even if you had the crumbly old original? I would. From what it sounds like, that is the service Dave wants to provide, the only problem is there are no such records. Dave's solution to maintain the "credibilty" of duplicate sheets was to limit new copies to only those who have originals. (Unfortunately, most of us don't. )

I don't think that duplicates made under these guidelines would be a bad thing. I think the problem arises when someone else starts to make duplicates, and they don't have the same integrity as Dave and ECS. Now we can't tell legitamate "dupicates" from just plain bogus sheets. Unless ECS would have a number to call to verify whether a suspect sheet is an authorized copy or not, 99% of us wouldn't be able to tell if it's legit or bogus. The smart shopper would have to assume it's a bogus sheet, and so what benefit to the seller would that be? Whether Dave decides to make them or not, I sure others will. I'm sure they have been for years. Personally, if I wanted a duplicate, I'd rather have mine done by a reputible company like ECS seems to be...

Tags are in no way valuable in authenticating options.

Those are repopped so easily and guys doing them will put anything you want on them.

Posted By: Stewpar

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 05/01/10 03:32 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Build sheet is the ONLY proof of these valuable options:

- four-speed
- fresh air package
- color

These three items can make anywhere between $10k-$30k price diff than those cars w/o those options (compared to automatic-equipped cars for ex.).

Actually, aren't these on the fender tag? The tag on my '69 Charger tells me what transmision, the color of the car, what color stripe, A/C, etc.

Here is a different perspective...let's say Chrysler had kept excellent records. With just a phone call to Chrysler and your VIN they could provide you with an exact duplicate of your build sheet. Wouldn't you want a nice, new, crisp one even if you had the crumbly old original? I would. From what it sounds like, that is the service Dave wants to provide, the only problem is there are no such records. Dave's solution to maintain the "credibilty" of duplicate sheets was to limit new copies to only those who have originals. (Unfortunately, most of us don't. )

I don't think that duplicates made under these guidelines would be a bad thing. I think the problem arises when someone else starts to make duplicates, and they don't have the same integrity as Dave and ECS. Now we can't tell legitamate "dupicates" from just plain bogus sheets. Unless ECS would have a number to call to verify whether a suspect sheet is an authorized copy or not, 99% of us wouldn't be able to tell if it's legit or bogus. The smart shopper would have to assume it's a bogus sheet, and so what benefit to the seller would that be? Whether Dave decides to make them or not, I sure others will. I'm sure they have been for years. Personally, if I wanted a duplicate, I'd rather have mine done by a reputible company like ECS seems to be...

Tags are in no way valuable in authenticating options.

Those are repopped so easily and guys doing them will put anything you want on them.

And what if they are original?

Posted By: JulesdaWiperman

Re: Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea? - 05/01/10 07:45 PM

Dave,
I have the perfect solution to all this.
Why don't you just sell blank sheets from those rolls you already have.
It would be a great novelty item and people could do what they see fit with them.
Jules

Broadcast Sheet Poll - are repros a good idea?