Looking For Mr. Six Pack Cam Information

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I was amazed when talking with Bob about how quick a stock A12 with his camshaft can run. Sub 13 second passes........I would say how sub 13 but don't want to misquote him.

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Your car's run 13.0's @ 112MPH with the exhaust open on a non-prepped track....without any tuning....The muffs on the car now are the ones TTI sells with their headpipes and they suck.........it could really use some UltraFlo's....... Muffs slow that car down 6MPH!!! On a prepped track through those muffs it went 13.0's @ 106MPH.........

I'd bet that with UltraFlo's and on a prepped track, it'll go easy 12.50's, and that motor's pretty stock.......It's got J&E flat tops and the heads have been gasket matched.........That's it......

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Chris
Can't wait to see it in person, will it be at the nats or maybe martin? If so then we can have some side by side fun..

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Scott it will definetly be at the Nats this summer so yes we will. Maybe we can let it rip on the way to Heath again......this time we know where the corners are.

No Johnnycakes porta potties.
How about you Scott, camshaft on the docket?

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Hey Hillbilly Kid,
Not to hijack my own thread, but any advice on how to launch a 4 speed (technique, type of clutch, etc.) and still get those awesome timeslips? A Mr. Sixpack cam is going in my car this spring. Thanks!

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Incase you are going to buy a 4sp cam from Bob, I have a new one that I bought from him still in the box that I am willing to sell. It is for adjustable valve train.

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You know how bob is, secretive nice guy but, when it comes to his cams, you cant get any info from him.

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What a joke!!! That's his way of saying that he doesn't think his customers are smart enough to use a degree wheel and dial indicator to figure out what the cam specs are...........Gimme a break........

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Wayne/Big Squeeze

You couldnt be more wrong!!! Bob K is one of the finest people I have ever met! He would NEVER disrespect anybody customers or not. IMHO I dont think there are many people that have done as much for us Big Block mopar people as Bob has! Ever read a Direct Connection/Mopar Performance engine manuel way back in the late 70's /80's?(Sorry Bob not poking at your age) Guess who did much of the testing on the Mopar camshafts, that would be Bob, have you read any of the 13second/12/second/11 second packages in the DC manuels? Guess who did the testing? Thats right that would be Bob. I know we've talked at a Fast/purestock race before so you have been there how many of the guys do you think hes helped there? Most of the Mopar people in both Fast and Purestock either with suspention or engine sugestions when asked! Do you know how many Tune-ups, carb adjustments/rebuilds, timming adjustments hes done at the race setting aside his own car to help somebody else? More than I can count! Do you know how many people hes walked throught a carb rebuild or dist recurve, or even degreeing a camshaft on the phone???? More than I can count! Do you know how many housecalls hes made in the Detroit area helping somebody whos having an issue with a Mopar? More than you would believe!

Wayne, when somebody purchases a cam from Bob he gives suggestions on where he thinks cam should be installed (degreeing), lifter preload amount, timming sugestions, dist recurving and rate of advance. and even jetting sugestions, does comp cams, engle, crane,crower, or any of the other cam manufactures go this far? Can you blame him for not wanting to publish his specks on the net so guys can try to duplacate his cam for 39.95 and just remember this cam has been installed and track tested from 10deg advanced to 10 deg retarded and with numerious diffrent timming curves. Remember, Track tested, not just a suggestion or guess that came off desktop dyno or engine analsys program, its not a guess,cold hard numbers and ET slips, not B.S or I think I can come up with a good guess!

Most of if not all of the 12 second 440's running in purestock are running Bobs cam many are on this board, that speaks VOLUMES!!!

When you make a comment like the one above you should know the man first!!!

..........Paul M Petcou

Spellings a mess sorry, oh yes I'm the guy that was walked through a cam degreeing over the phone once upon a time,and yes he taught me the specks through the degree wheel and dial indacator!Thanks Bob

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...There are much better grinds out there that will make more power and idle just as smooth.....

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The Mr Six Pack Cam is the closest I've found to the orignal low taper six pack cam that Mopar made for us in 69, its not just lift and duration, there was a diffrent lobe used on this cam, all of the current blueprint cams that I've checked are not ground on this lobe even the one marketed by Mopar...

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Crane is making a flat tapered cam. My question is can I use their lifters with an original used A12 cam? The other question is can I use the original lifters even if they are not back on the same lobe? The person who first took mine apart saved everything but did not number the lifters.

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Paul,

I'll be the first to tell you that I'm a long way from being a camshaft expert......but I do understand the basics......unlike the majority of people on this board (which is fine, that's what this board is for).......and even I wouldn't recommend a camshaft to anyone......but if I were going to, it wouldn't be a hydraulic.......

I never said that there's a better cam for Pure Stock....I said, and I quote myself;

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The fact is, there is absolutely no reason to run his cam unless you're trying to slip by Pure Stock tech....There are much better grinds out there that will make more power and idle just as smooth.....

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That means, sure, it's a great cam for someone that wants to pass Pure Stock, but it appears to me that the guy that started this thread is not building a car to be competitive at the Pure Stocks, so what I'm getting at is, if you call Porter or Scot at Straightline and tell them you've got a bone stock or blue printed motor (and you're not trying to be competitive at the Pure Stock races), they're not going to recommend a repro cam or even anything with stock lift........So why are all these people recommending the Mr. Six Pack cam to people with relatively stock motors when they don't even know the specs and probably know very little about camshafts anyway???

I didn't mean to sound like I was bashing Bob, I've met him too and his always been nice..... I'm just having a hard time getting past the reasoning behind not giving the specs when anyone like you and Tom can figure it out anyway......

PS......Does anyone have one that they can send me so I can measure it and post the numbers so we can get past all this???

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Wayne

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Ouch........I wouldn't post the numbers......on that I'm just a little .....I'm not really interested in the numbers since I don't have a need for a cam that passes Pure Stock tech..... I'd just like to see people look outside the "Mr. Six Pack cam" box when it comes to a camshaft for something other than a Pure Stocker......even if the motor is relatively pure stock...

Just curious, has anyone done an accurate, unbiased, back to back test with that cam and a repro? If so, how many MPH was it worth?

To reiterate, I hope you guys understand that I'm in no way knocking Bob's character .......I'm just trying to make a point. I did say that by doing what he does gives me the impression of him being arrogant, but I'm not calling him arrogant, and honestly, there's nothing wrong with being a little arrogant if you've accomplished as much as he has......

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Thanks Paul.That really means alot.I try to help where I can.I believe what comes around goes around.In most cases I'm the one who requires help.I'm amazed at how many guys are willing to help out.Give away what they have paid for and learned for free.It's cool how some things come full circle.

I look forward to next year Paul.I'm working on something that will rank a little better than the Cuda.Look out

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i have to agree with this , i met paul for the first time at the pure stock drags this year , talked briefly with him on my dart . took his recommendations , though i wasn't as brave on ignition advance he suggested and maybe a good thing since my timing chain was almost ready to skip a tooth , and i posted my best ET to date and the next day at my home track posted my best MPH ...

these detroit guys know their stuff ...

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"So what was his original cam" ?

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It sounds like it it was the original cam that came in his engine in '69.......

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Wayne, does Ray Barton grind SS/AA cams and advertise lift and duration on his website? Does Dan Davorak grind Max Wedge/Stock eliminator cams and advertise on his site? How about Tri City Comp. no advertisement there either? Maybe Don Little??? No Not on his Homepage???Maybe thats the reason Bob doesnt post the numbers???

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That's a good point, but those guys, or their customers, aren't recommending those "race" cams for ANY other kind of race motor either.......

I honestly believe the a small solid flat tappet or roller cam with similar duration as a stock cam, but with more lift, will make more power and idle just as well as a stock camshaft........More lift is one of those things that does not hurt power, it only helps if the heads flow enough to use it.......

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Well if that "is" the case,shouldn't be hard to replicate.Also,anybody with an original motor would already have one!

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That's not as easy as it sounds............apparantly only the '69 model A12 cars had this specific low taper grind........and nobody makes it......

HPMike....What's the cluster?

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I thought the design of the original six pack cam was more of a durability change. I read because of the Hemi valve springs there were some wear problems in the durability testing so they designed the low taper setup to fix those issues. I was always under the impression the specs were the same as the 440 Magnum cam.

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I think you will find that is correct.I'll stick with that summation until someone "proves ,not guesses" otherwise.

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What I am saying, if thats the case the specs are out there!

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Yeah, they are, but I'm sure that Bob's cam isn't stock (that's why it's hush hush). Heck I'm sure it's asymmetric too.......That cam is a Pure Stock cheater cam........It's another case of creative interpretation of the rules....... and there's nothing wrong with that.........

Yeah, HPMike, I agree that it's a cluster that that cam is being recommended to guys that aren't Pure Stock racers......

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Yeah, HPMike, I agree that it's a cluster that that cam is being recommended to guys that aren't Pure Stock racers......

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Don't forget what forum you're in - not too many people here wanting other than the stock sound and appearance. Common sense tells me a pure stock cam would work really well on the street too.

You know I looked back and didn't really see any posts where the OP stated what their primary purpose is - 1st reply recommended a Bob K cam and the next thing you know, here we are.

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Don't forget what forum you're in - not too many people here wanting other than the stock sound and appearance. Common sense tells me a pure stock cam would work really well on the street too.

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Not that I'm a pure stock racer or even that knowleable about their cams but my understanding is that they have to meet certain lift and duration requirements to be "legal". What you then do is try to get as much "area under the curve" as possible to get more mixture into the cylinders and therefore make more power. This forces you to design a cam lobe that might not be ideal from a stabilty/longevity point because it must open and close real fast. Valve spring pressures must be correct to prevent valve float and or bouncing off the seat due to the extreem lobe design. You end up trading stability for horsepower because afterall it is a race cam. My common sense tells me that although this would work on the street, that it might not be the best choice you could make especially if you drive a lot of miles.

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Wayne would the guys at straightline care if we posted the specs on there cam that's in my motor?

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I'm sure he wouldn't.......I don't even remember how much vacuum your motor has at idle.....If I remember right, it does sound really stock though......

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The taper is designed to allow the lifters to rotate/spin in the bores.

Mike

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I'm 'seeing' it right then. Thanks.

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Mike, I want to bring up a few points that I think are worth clarifying for some of us. I think we previously established here that the 69 A12's had a standard 1 bolt cam and the nylon tooth timing gear with street hemi (black) valve springs. The 70 and 71 cams had the roller timing chains and I don't know if they were 1 or 3 bolt cams? Now I don't remember seeing this disputed in previous threads regarding the A12 cam but the A12 cam was not advertised as the same spec as the 383/440 HP cars. The A12 cam was advertised as 276-292 54 overlap (look at the 1969 Plymouth tells it like it is Sixbbl ad). The service manual lists a 383/440 HP "Power Pack" B-Body cam as a 268 284 46 cam (with red colored valve springs) The 383 Cuda's had yet a slightly different specification than the "Power Pack". The six pack's 292 exhaust duration would definitely give the A12 more rpm's, more torque at higher rpm's and the springs would help prevent valve float. The hot aftermarket replacement wedge cam of the time was the "Hemi" grind which had a 284 284 specification and was typically available with 3 bolts. I believe this ultimately became Chrysler's standard "Purple" cam. The A12 did have the same ratio rockers but were a tighter fit on the rocker shaft (round hole vs oval) and supposed to be heavier duty... but the sixpack cam is different. My

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MAN! What an informative thread! I started it because I'm into the stock thing. I want to get the absolute most out of my engine while leaving it alone. Period. I'm not interested in fooling the tech inspection guys...I could care less about that stuff. I'm doing this for me, not them...

I am grateful that, as a result of this thread, I was able to contact Bob K. We spoke at length about what benefit his cam design would provide, with respect to what I was trying to accomplish. Bob was warm, generous, and was very intersted in the fact that I wanted to install his cam in my lowly little 383!

He treated me like an old freind on the phone, and I have NEVER met him! We simply don't know how lucky we are...This is a guy that was actually THERE - in Detroit - when these cars were making their mark! He got to rub elbows with some big names in the Chrysler Corp. His experiences as a youth are something that we would all give our left torsion bars to have been a part of!

The fact that he is still with us, is such a gentleman, and has no problem sharing with perfect strangers, makes him nothing less than a treasure.

As far as this Bigsqueeze guy goes, he's entitled to his opinion...This is, after all, an open forum. Personally I wish he would leave out the insulting comments.

Those of you interested in how Bob's cam does in a stock 383, stay tuned. I hope to have this thing together in the spring, and I'll post my results.

Merry Christmas to all!

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As far as this Bigsqueeze guy goes, he's entitled to his opinion...This is, after all, an open forum. Personally I wish he would leave out the insulting comments.

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What "insulting comments" are you talking about? You must be confusing facts with "insulting comments?"

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"...I wouldn't walk across the steet to pee on one."

Sounds like an insult to me.

Our opinions may never agree, but injecting them with something that mean-spirited is never appropriate. Keep that junk to yourself.

'Nuff said.

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It'd be an insult if I said that I wanted to pee on Bob....... I didn't realize that you could insult a cam....... If I told you that I wouldn't pee on an Edelbrock Street Master intake, I'm not bashing Vic.......

You conveniently forgot the part in front of that;

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It gives the impression that he's arrogant.....

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I just said that by doing that, he's giving off an arrogant impression........Big deal....I feel like's he's insulting the intelligence of his customers by not telling them the cam specs up front....so, in actuality, he's insulting you.....

If you'll notice, nobody has disagreed with me about me saying that there's no reason to run that cam in anything other than a Pure Stocker........

Next time you talk to Bob, ask him if more lift or a solid cam in his car would make it go quicker with the same idle quality....... When he says what I know he'll say, why would you still run his cam, unless you're going to the Pure Stocks?

I'm one of those people that tells it like it is.....Some people can't handle the truth.......Don't take it personaly.......

Bob is a great guy and he's been a huge asset to Pure Stock racing, but that cam isn't what any professional cam grinder would recommend to anyone other than a Pure Stock racer........

Sometimes, if you're smart enough to take good advice, you don't need it......

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I have been following this post, because I am working on a 69 RR 4-spd post Clone for the pure stock class. The one thing that I think that has failed to be mentioned, and someone correct me (like im sure this won't happen ) if Im wrong, but wasn't one of the big part of the 6bbl "hot" parts not so much the cam specs, but the "Mushroom" lifters? That had to be put in first and held in place with cloths pins? Where the base was larger than the bodies like a bullit casing whick would allow for faster ramping?, Or am I thinking of something else?

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you are thinking of something else , 69 6bbl cars didn't use mushroom lifters

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That is because he wrote the book

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I don't think so!

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Waayne,that is from the old 1980 Direct Connection Performance manual.Here is the rest.

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Thanks....That is really interesting......I had no idea that that cam used different lifters.......I just assumed that since the cam has less taper, that the lifter just broke into it....... Shows you what I know....

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sounds like JD needs to get his OE cam over to Brad so he can put it in a block and measure it up.

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Yep... 'cept I need to have a block w/a crank in it where I can actually measure it. But the measuring part is a "no brainer".

Here's some other stuff to on the original A12 camshaft... seems like the factory couldn't quite decide what to tell people when the cars were introduced. Here are a bunch of quotes from various "at the time" articles linked from the A12 Registry, including the links to the articles themselves, plus some of Ro McGonegal's after-the-fact comments published many years later:

http://sixpacksixbbl.homestead.com/a12roadtestspage3.html
"Compression is a moderate 10.0:1... Intake... 268 duration, Exhaust... duration is 284... Lift is .450"-inch on the intake and .465-inch on the exhaust."

http://sixpacksixbbl.homestead.com/a12roadtestpage2.html
"Compression ratio... 10.5-to-1
Camshaft... Hydraulic, .450-465-inch lift"

http://sixpacksixbbl.homestead.com/a12roadtestspage6.html
"Compression ratio... 10.1:1
cam timing... duration, int.exh.... 268/284"

http://www.homestead.com/sixpacksixbbl/a12roadtestspage7.html
Plymouth's original 440 Six BBL Road Runner ad: "Special low-taper 276-292-54 camshaft..."

http://sixpacksixbbl.homestead.com/a12roadtestspage8.html
"Cam Duration... Intake 276... Exhaust 292... Overlap 54
Lift at 0-in. Lash... Intake .450 in.... Exhaust .465 in."

http://www.homestead.com/sixpacksixbbl/a12roadtestspage10.html
"The camshaft intake side has 276* duration and .450" lift. The exhaust side uses 292* duration at a higher .465" lift. Overlap is 54*."

http://www.homestead.com/sixpacksixbbl/a12roadtestspage11.html
Ro McGonegal's comments a couple of decades after the Cecil County test:
"The production cam had 268/284-degrees duration, .450/.465-inch lift and 46 degrees of overlap, but the one in our mule kicked a little harder. This cam was reportedly phased with stock lift, 276/292 degrees of intake and exhaust duration, and 54 degrees of overlap. We suspect, too, that the 10.5:1 forged pistons originally proposed for this limited-production 440 were inside the engine of our special test car. Though early print ads specified the higher-than-standard compression ratio, the naked truth was cast-aluminum pistons and a nominal static compression ratio of 10.1:1."

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... one version of what looks like a repro cam is 214/225 @ .050", .449"/.464", 115 LSA. Has anyone measured the MP repro cam and can compare it with those #s?

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I bring this up, again, because I found an article in an older issue of Mopar Muscle where Bob K. discussed the details of both his Super Bee and his Hemi 'Cuda. In it he mentioned the MP repro cam, but said the duration at .050" #s were 208/220, which is smaller than I expected.

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Brad I used a Hughes 223-230 504I 515E with good results. It seemed to be a good exhaust manifold cam as it pushed a 3860 lbs Bee 110+ in the quarter with a cast iron intake and AVS carb. With 451 cubic inches you could hear the cam in the exhaust just slightly.

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I have another problem in that my machinist wants to order a stroker for my car...once a racer...

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Yeah yeah yeah, blame it on your machinist.

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Thanks for the info BradH. Interesting seat-to-seat numbers for the duration.

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Bob told me 18 - 19"

Dave

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Blast from the past...

Are these cams still available?

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So when using Bobs cam you run basically stock 906 heads and exhaust manifolds? What does he recommend for compression? I really want to give his cam a try. I need to go through my 70 440 6 pack motor and was curious what needs to be done per Bobs recommendations. Thanks

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What are you guys running for ets with the Mr six pack cam? Also whats the combo? Thanks

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Blast from the past...

Are these cams still available?

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Pepe, it's not so long time ago when I sent you a pic of Bob's cam package after I had bought one.
I don't find any reason why they would not be available at the moment.

Call to Bob, he's a great guy and purchase the cam from him

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DPelltier, Awesome video love it. Hope to have the same setup in the R/T. Please post your times when you get to the track. Take care.

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Thanks and will do.
Dave

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Anyone in the upper 12s with a stock 440 on pump gas?

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Anyone in the upper 12s with a stock 440 on pump gas?

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...depends what you mean by "stock". If you mean "as rolled off the assy line" then I'm gonna say no. Certainly the low 12 sec. cars are running too much compression (combined with the cam's high cranking pressures as well as the detonation prone stock cast 906 heads) to run on pump gas. The general consensus of the Ronnie Sox A12 RR test was that the car was "tweeked". The fact that none of the other 440-6 road tests from "back in the day" are in the 12's would seem to support this contention.

According to "them in the know" it would be possible to run a lower compression, Pure Stock legal, 440-6 that should break into the 12's and run on pump gas, but you are definitely not going to run with the top dogs in PS at that compression level.



Dave

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Will come check it out Cody. I have a cam sitting here. Just not sure on which route to build an engine. All the A12 running low 12s are on race fuel.

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Broke in the 383 cam I got from Mr. Six pack two days ago on the engine stand and put the motor back in the car today.

Let me back up and say that my engine builder came highly recommended and with everything else on the build he did great, but he had his "connection" cam company custom grid a custom cam for my motor and after 100 miles I knew it had to come out. It just wasn't right and wasn't running good. Spoke with Bob (Mr. Six Pack) and had him send me one of his grinds to see if it was better. Let me tell you I could not be any happier! The car runs fantastically and is really responsive. I'm running stock stuff (stock intake, heads, exhaust manifolds, carb) and the car feels so much stronger with Mr. Six Packs grind compared to the grind my engine builder put in. Plus it idles and runs so much better.

I would STRONGLY recommend Bob (Mr. Six Pack) to anyone who is looking for a cam grind.

Has anyone used his 340 six pack grind?

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In talking with Bob on the phone, he told me that when his original six-pack cam started going flat (I believe it was sometime in the early 90s), he turned to the major aftermarket cam companies and had a number of custom cam grinds made based on their recommendations. He said none of these custom cam grinds had the snappy feel of the factory original six pack camshaft so that's when he started experimenting with his own cam grinds. He said the first cam grind he tried is pretty close to the one he still uses today. Bob has a whole box of those aftermarket custom grinds sitting in his basement collecting dust, that is unless he's taken them to the recycler since I last spoke to him.

Bob also told me in his down-to-earth non-arrogant way that he's helped guys swap out their MP 484 and 509 purple shafts for his cam grind for a performance feel people find very surprising.

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I just ordered a Mr Six Pack Cam for my 70 V code Bee.

Tired of the poor idle and noisy valvetrain with the Comp XE275HL i am currently runnning.

At the end of the day, i know that with stock exhaust manifolds, Bob's cam with a 114 LSA will work better, so here goes...

Cheers,

Arnie

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Has anyone used his 340 six pack grind?

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That is a nice gain Dave

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60' times are still a little slow though.

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My 74 Duster purestocker went [Email]13.82@100+[/Email] last weekend at Martin,MI in the heat.Cam is working very well!

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My 74 Duster purestocker went [Email]13.82@100+[/Email] last weekend at Martin,MI in the heat.Cam is working very well!

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That's really good with a stock '74 360 Seth.

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My 74 Duster purestocker went [Email]13.82@100+[/Email] last weekend at Martin,MI in the heat.Cam is working very well!

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