Posted By: sch1966
ICCA manuals - 09/20/09 09:23 PM
Does anyone have any experience with the ICCA manuals from MMC Detroit? Are they a good guide for restoration? Or are there others that would be reccomended?
Thanks
Thanks
ICCA manuals
Posted By: Mike Mancini
Re: ICCA manuals - 09/20/09 09:50 PM
Yes they are an excellent source of information. They are the best available restoration aids on the market. Contact Dave Wise @ ICCA and get your hands on one!
Posted By: sg333e
Re: ICCA manuals - 09/21/09 12:14 AM
I have both the fastener guide and the judging guide. I've used the fastener guide 10x more than the judging guide. Could be that my project isn't far along enough, but figured I would throw that out there.
Posted By: Troy
Re: ICCA manuals - 09/21/09 03:10 PM
.....sorry, not impressed. Too veg and have found may discrepancies.
Just my
Just my
Posted By: gtx6970
Re: ICCA manuals - 09/21/09 03:26 PM
The fasteners guides I use on a regular basis. the restoration guide , not so much.
IMO , they are/would be great resource IF other sources were not avail. OR to a novice.
I have one and haven't opened it more than 5 or 6 times.
I mean no dis-respect, I know the the author and felt this was a huge undertaking on his part. But the information is constantly changing and added to the fact it's easier to get and cheaper on the net. NOT that the info found on the net is always right,,,,,,, but at least one has access to a larger info pool to pull from
IMO , they are/would be great resource IF other sources were not avail. OR to a novice.
I have one and haven't opened it more than 5 or 6 times.
I mean no dis-respect, I know the the author and felt this was a huge undertaking on his part. But the information is constantly changing and added to the fact it's easier to get and cheaper on the net. NOT that the info found on the net is always right,,,,,,, but at least one has access to a larger info pool to pull from
Posted By: Troy
Re: ICCA manuals - 09/21/09 04:29 PM
Quote:
IMO , they are/would be great resource IF other sources were not avail. OR to a novice.
I have one and haven't opened it more than 5 or 6 times.
I mean no dis-respect, I know the the author and felt this was a huge undertaking on his part. But the information is constantly changing and added to the fact it's easier to get and cheaper on the net. NOT that the info found on the net is always right,,,,,,, but at least one has access to a larger info pool to pull from
Yes, what he said.
Very well said.Maybe in the Ford and Chevy world you can have a book that is correct for all the models and all the assembly plants but that is just not true in the Mopar world. Lynch Road, Hamtramck and Los Angeles plants did things differently and used different vendors on many of there parts so how can all the parts and procedures be the same????
Maybe I just don't like somebody telling me what is correct when I know better.
OK, I'm done......
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: ICCA manuals - 09/22/09 12:36 AM
Quote:
Maybe in the Ford and Chevy world you can have a book that is correct for all the models and all the assembly plants but that is just not true in the Mopar world.
There is no difference in the other automobile venues that you mentioned Troy. They also have various plants of assembly found in their portfolio. The problem is that most of the information accumulated in the Chrysler world is taken from people who have referenced just enough data to satisfy their curiosity for THAT particular moment in time. They research part of the scenario and then come up with a knee-jerk conclusion. While their partial information is correct, it is also incomplete. In order for accurate comprehensive information to result, someone needs to take the time to research the data themselves and not rely on snippets of information from someone else. This takes a tremendous amount of effort but is the only way to obtain reliable and factual data.
Posted By: MMC Detroit
ICCA B and E body "Reference" manuals - 09/22/09 08:49 AM
Dave W,
Your point is very well made. The ICCA B and E Reference Manual and the B and E Body Guide to Fastener Manual are intended to be “reference” guides. These manuals have been in print for over 7 years and we have "always been open" to suggestions of how to make the information as accurate as possible and better understood by users of all knowledge levels within the hobby.
These reference manuals have been assembled by individually within the Mopar collector car hobby that continuously strive to provide the best and most accurate information available relating the judging, restoration and preservation of Mopar’s every day. Everyone involved in the compiling of this information realize that there are variations in assembly process, manufacturing process,vendors, materials and parts used at different plants at various points with a given production year. That is why the information in the manual will always be dynamic and we will never give up striving to assembly the best and most accurate information available. Revisions and additions will be implemented as information is objectively obtained and presented to the ICCA.
Please feel free to contact me at dave@mmcdetroit.com with your suggestions of if you are are interested in sharing information that you have discovered and want to contribute this information into the manuals for the advancement of the Mopar hobby and/or are interested in being part of the ICCA.
ICCA/ MMC Detroit Guiding Statements:
Mission Statement:
To continuously strive to enhance and advance the Mopar Automobile collector hobby.
Our Quality Policy:
To provide products and services that meet or exceed your expectations at a fair price.
Our Goal:
To be a trusted resource for reliable information, products, and services.
Our Objective:
To share the information and knowledge acquired over the past 50+ years with our customers
Your point is very well made. The ICCA B and E Reference Manual and the B and E Body Guide to Fastener Manual are intended to be “reference” guides. These manuals have been in print for over 7 years and we have "always been open" to suggestions of how to make the information as accurate as possible and better understood by users of all knowledge levels within the hobby.
These reference manuals have been assembled by individually within the Mopar collector car hobby that continuously strive to provide the best and most accurate information available relating the judging, restoration and preservation of Mopar’s every day. Everyone involved in the compiling of this information realize that there are variations in assembly process, manufacturing process,vendors, materials and parts used at different plants at various points with a given production year. That is why the information in the manual will always be dynamic and we will never give up striving to assembly the best and most accurate information available. Revisions and additions will be implemented as information is objectively obtained and presented to the ICCA.
Please feel free to contact me at dave@mmcdetroit.com with your suggestions of if you are are interested in sharing information that you have discovered and want to contribute this information into the manuals for the advancement of the Mopar hobby and/or are interested in being part of the ICCA.
ICCA/ MMC Detroit Guiding Statements:
Mission Statement:
To continuously strive to enhance and advance the Mopar Automobile collector hobby.
Our Quality Policy:
To provide products and services that meet or exceed your expectations at a fair price.
Our Goal:
To be a trusted resource for reliable information, products, and services.
Our Objective:
To share the information and knowledge acquired over the past 50+ years with our customers
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: ICCA B and E body "Reference" manuals - 09/22/09 04:54 PM
Hey Master Dave! Good to hear from you. I personally want to thank you for your efforts with everything you have provided to this hobby. You were probably the first friend to reach out to ECS/me years ago and offer a helping hand when we first started. My previous comments include anyone who has tried to research and document information for this hobby. The other venues have the exact same problems that Chrysler folks think are non existent to them. I work with Ford and GM everyday and can assure you that the grass is not always greener. Personally, I am guilty of the "knee jerk" reaction I mentioned in my earlier post. Every project has allowed me to realize what is NOT known in the restoration World. I have come to the conclusion that if you restored a thousand cars, you would STILL be faced with a quagmire of questions and uncertainties. All one can do is move forward and do the best they can to provide the facts as they are uncovered.
History never changes....only our perception and understanding of it!
History never changes....only our perception and understanding of it!
Posted By: cataclysm80
Re: ICCA manuals - 09/23/09 06:19 AM
Quote:
Maybe in the Ford and Chevy world you can have a book that is correct for all the models and all the assembly plants but that is just not true in the Mopar world. Lynch Road, Hamtramck and Los Angeles plants did things differently and used different vendors on many of there parts so how can all the parts and procedures be the same????
Luckily, the ICCA books are divided up into body style. Also Luckily, with the exception of a few 1970 LA built cars, ALL the E bodies were built at the same plant (Hamtramck). So, If your doing an E body, this helps narrow things down a bit. Of coarse, procedures/parts still changed a little as time went by, and sometimes there are still parts that were provided by more than one vendor, but it is easier to sort this stuff out when the cars were at least built at the same plant.
I have both the fastener guide & the restoration guide. I've had the fastener guide longer, and so far, I'd have to agree with the others that it gets used more often. I've seen some errors in both books, but far less errors than usually found in other "resto" books. Plus, it's comforting to know that if I do find an error, I can call them up, or write an email, and the problem will be corrected for the next printing. These books aren't perfect, but they are significantly better than any other resto book on the market. Of coarse, whenever possible, your own car is always your best reference. Pay close attention to everything, and take LOTS of pictures during disassembly.
If you don't already have these books, get them also...
Factory Service Manual (it's your new best friend)
Galens White Book (to decode your fender tag/broadcast sheet)
Your own library of pics/info collected from your car.
Faxon Auto Literature Engineering Diagrams (if available for your car)
Join Moparts (Questions, Answers, Friends)
ICCA Manuals (make sure to get the newest printing)
You might also find a Parts Department Manual handy, but not all parts have the # stamped on them, and sometimes the 1970 part you have was superseded by a 1971 #, leading you to believe you have the wrong part when you actually have the correct one, etc.
More than likely, the answer to any question you have can be found in one of those listed sources.
Tav
Posted By: cataclysm80
Re: ICCA B and E body "Reference" manuals - 09/23/09 06:20 AM
Hi Dave W. 
It's great to see you back here again!
Tav
It's great to see you back here again!
Tav
Posted By: sch1966
Re: ICCA B and E body "Reference" manuals - 09/23/09 12:58 PM
Thanks all! I understand how things work in manufacturing and know that there can be variances. With that in mind let me ask the questions a little differently. With the info in these books what percentage of the questions in this forum could be answered? I understand that the books are model specific and one book wouldn't answer questions for all models. I am just trying to get a feel for what I would be getting for my money. Their webpage has a few sample pages but they aren't that helpful.
Posted By: cataclysm80
Re: ICCA B and E body "Reference" manuals - 09/23/09 03:16 PM
It just depends on what type of question is being asked.
The ICCA books don't have info on how to adjust parts like the factory service manual does.
They also don't have info on how to decode you tag/broadcast sheet like Galens white books.
They do have a few assembly diagrams for reference, but not as detailed as a full set of engineering diagrams.
Mainly, the ICCA books deal with verifying your car parts are correct, which can also provide you with info on what to look for if you're missing something. Usually the info is correct, but if you think it might not be/doesn't match what you have, you might want to double check with a known original car, or ask here on moparts.
Personally, I'd like to see more coding info in the ICCA restoration/judging manual. (The passenger mirror & screws on a car might appear correct, but if the car isn't supposed to have a passenger mirror in the first place, shouldn't some points be deducted?)
The sample pages on the website are a bit out of date. I had issues with that before. They are a good example of the format used in the manuals, but the information on the sample pages (especially the E body gauges) had some errors that have been corrected.
Tav
The ICCA books don't have info on how to adjust parts like the factory service manual does.
They also don't have info on how to decode you tag/broadcast sheet like Galens white books.
They do have a few assembly diagrams for reference, but not as detailed as a full set of engineering diagrams.
Mainly, the ICCA books deal with verifying your car parts are correct, which can also provide you with info on what to look for if you're missing something. Usually the info is correct, but if you think it might not be/doesn't match what you have, you might want to double check with a known original car, or ask here on moparts.
Personally, I'd like to see more coding info in the ICCA restoration/judging manual. (The passenger mirror & screws on a car might appear correct, but if the car isn't supposed to have a passenger mirror in the first place, shouldn't some points be deducted?)
The sample pages on the website are a bit out of date. I had issues with that before. They are a good example of the format used in the manuals, but the information on the sample pages (especially the E body gauges) had some errors that have been corrected.
Tav
Posted By: Troy
Re: ICCA B and E body "Reference" manuals - 09/24/09 04:46 PM
The best tools in restoring any car is your own two eyes and experience. You gain experience by doing, not reading a book that tells you how to do things. I can see how a manual might open a few doors and shine some light on things. BUT the problem is when things are in BLACK and WHITE they become LAW and some of the people that write the book thinks that there above the law.
People try to hide facts and findings because there not sure how things happened back in the day.....sometimes there are no answers. Why are some fender tags bent with one painted screw and others are not?? Why are some fender tags painted and others are not?? These are simple questions but there are no definite answers. What does the ICCA book say on the topic of bent and painted fender tags?
People try to hide facts and findings because there not sure how things happened back in the day.....sometimes there are no answers. Why are some fender tags bent with one painted screw and others are not?? Why are some fender tags painted and others are not?? These are simple questions but there are no definite answers. What does the ICCA book say on the topic of bent and painted fender tags?
Posted By: MMC Detroit
Re: ICCA manuals - 09/26/09 12:30 PM
Thanks for the feedback. It sounds like we are on the right track with the information that is in and on the web site, fasteners manuals and reference manuals. We are always trying to improve. Please tell me specifically what you would like to see by make, model, year, assembly period and plant and we will do our best to provide more information moving forward.
Recently worked with Roger Wilson who operates the 1970 GTX Registry and through his efforts we significantly updated all related information relating to the GTX trim and some points relating to the 1970 Road Runner in all manuals. Roger took the time to provide me with marked up pages and suggestions that were immediately into the applicable manual.
TAV thanks for commenting on the observations of the E body IP. We all owe that upgrade to Mike Mancini who provided us with marked up pages, photographs and suggestions that were implemented.
I’m currently working with Jim Ridge of Dixie Restorations to ensure that the information on the starters and alternators information is as accurate as possible.
We are working with Byron Fettig now of the Dakota Connection in the development of the 1968-70 Dodge Charger, Coronet R/T and Super Bee manual.
I have a list of over 40 contributors from all over the world that we have acknowledged in the front of the manual, that have taken the time to provide us with information because they believe in what we are trying to do to improve the Mopar Collector Car hobby. Because of these individuals the ICCA is able to continue to compile and assembly the best source for reference information to assist moving the hobby forward in the world.
Please feel free to contact me at dave@mmcdetroit.com with your suggestions of if you are interested in sharing information that you have discovered and want to contribute this information into the manuals for the advancement of the Mopar hobby and/or are interested in being part of the ICCA.
Recently worked with Roger Wilson who operates the 1970 GTX Registry and through his efforts we significantly updated all related information relating to the GTX trim and some points relating to the 1970 Road Runner in all manuals. Roger took the time to provide me with marked up pages and suggestions that were immediately into the applicable manual.
TAV thanks for commenting on the observations of the E body IP. We all owe that upgrade to Mike Mancini who provided us with marked up pages, photographs and suggestions that were implemented.
I’m currently working with Jim Ridge of Dixie Restorations to ensure that the information on the starters and alternators information is as accurate as possible.
We are working with Byron Fettig now of the Dakota Connection in the development of the 1968-70 Dodge Charger, Coronet R/T and Super Bee manual.
I have a list of over 40 contributors from all over the world that we have acknowledged in the front of the manual, that have taken the time to provide us with information because they believe in what we are trying to do to improve the Mopar Collector Car hobby. Because of these individuals the ICCA is able to continue to compile and assembly the best source for reference information to assist moving the hobby forward in the world.
Please feel free to contact me at dave@mmcdetroit.com with your suggestions of if you are interested in sharing information that you have discovered and want to contribute this information into the manuals for the advancement of the Mopar hobby and/or are interested in being part of the ICCA.
Posted By: MMC Detroit
Re: ICCA B and E body "Reference" manuals - 09/26/09 12:37 PM
Quote:
It just depends on what type of question is being asked.
The ICCA books don't have info on how to adjust parts like the factory service manual does.
They also don't have info on how to decode you tag/broadcast sheet like Galens white books.
Tav
The Vehicle Product Code Reference decoding information is in Section # 1 of all the manuals. We did not include details of what the package codes specifically include but the individual codes are there. TAV do you feel we need to add mode detail to what the package code include?
Posted By: gtx6970
Re: ICCA B and E body "Reference" manuals - 09/26/09 03:17 PM
Quote:
The Vehicle Product Code Reference decoding information is in Section # 1 of all the manuals. We did not include details of what the package codes specifically include but the individual codes are there. TAV do you feel we need to add mode detail to what the package code include?
Dave,
I feel as much information in one location/source would benefit all. So I would say Yes, have at least a basic breakdown of the pkg contents listed in with each applicable code.
Aslo,
There is a old junkyard 5 minutes from my house that still has several dozen old mopars from the muscle car era in it. So if there's something you need or a picture of any particular area of interest. let me know
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: ICCA B and E body "Reference" manuals - 09/26/09 05:55 PM
Dave, you must realize that any answers you provide will put you on the wrong side of the equation in one way or another. People admit that there are countless alternatives to a scenario yet they demand additional information towards a definitive conclusion. Your information manuals are based primarily on the engineered drawings and the assembly instructions that were provided by the Chrysler Corporation. For our hobby, this is a win-win situation. If a person does not have a survivor type vehicle to reference, then their only alternative is to rely on the information of how it was INTENDED to be done. If a person is lucky enough to have an unmolested vehicle, the original characteristics should still be evident and your publications will add insight as to why things were performed in a certain fashion. People shouldn't blame the "Speed Limit" because some find a way to exceed or violate it's intended instruction. The factory had a definite engineered way of doing things. The employees who carried out the "Plan" put their individual touch on the final results. It is certainly easier to work with and understand the facts than to try and force a square peg in a round hole.
Thank you once again for the thousands of hours you have dedicated and sacrificed in order to help simplify everyone's restoration efforts!
Thank you once again for the thousands of hours you have dedicated and sacrificed in order to help simplify everyone's restoration efforts!
Posted By: az426john
Re: ICCA B and E body "Reference" manuals - 09/26/09 06:27 PM
Dave,
I just received my ICCA Judging Manual and it is a great reference source.
I can only make one suggestion as an enhansment and that is that it would be helpful if the photo's were in color. Unfortunately, that would probably more than double the cost. Just a thought.
I just received my ICCA Judging Manual and it is a great reference source.
I can only make one suggestion as an enhansment and that is that it would be helpful if the photo's were in color. Unfortunately, that would probably more than double the cost. Just a thought.
Posted By: cataclysm80
Re: ICCA B and E body "Reference" manuals - 09/27/09 04:59 PM
Quote:
The Vehicle Product Code Reference decoding information is in Section # 1 of all the manuals. We did not include details of what the package codes specifically include but the individual codes are there. TAV do you feel we need to add mode detail to what the package code include?
It's good to see you here getting feedback on how to improve the books. I had another look at section # 1, and you're right, the information to decode your car tag or sheet IS there. The information is probably about as useful as having Galens white book, so If you have this ICCA book, you probably won't need Galens white book.
However, there is much room for improvement in this section. Because this book is specific to E bodies, this section could be transformed into a product far superior to what Galen offers. I saw several references/pages for 1964-1969 cars, including a full page photo regarding roadrunners and A body Barracudas. These things don't belong in an E body book, and by eliminating them you could cut printing costs, reduce customer confusion, and make it easier to find Useful information in the book. The other thing I would Love to see is that the production codes in this E body book, be E body specific. Currently the book lists production codes for 1969-1983 mopars, but in an E body book it would be WAY more useful to have Only the 1970-1974 codes Found On E Bodies. (Or Perhaps as the title of the book suggests, it should only include codes for 1970-1971 E bodies, but I would like to see the book expanded to cover all E bodies.) Just eliminating the irrelevant information would make Your product superior to Galens.
Taking it a step further than that and listing/showing what was included with each available option would be a truly wonderful thing. This would not be an easy thing to accomplish though. For example, the A35 towing package was available on 70-74 E bodies, but the items included as part of that package changed every year. Each year the towing package got a little more complete. Another good example would be the barracuda/'Cuda rubber bumper package. I'd have to check my notes to be sure, but if I remember right, ordering the rubber bumper package on a Gran Coupe upgrades the M88 tail panel molding from the 3 piece aluminum molding to the 4 piece ('cuda) stainless molding. Both style moldings are coded M88.
I think that doing this would be the correct path to taking the restoration/judging manual to the next level. I also think that doing this would require a slight reformatting of the book...
You would keep sections 2 operational check, 3 exterior review, 4 interior review, 6 Chassis-engine compartment, 7 Chassis-frame, 14 trunk review, and 16 factory labels, but these sections would only include information on standard equipment. No information on Optional equipment would be found here.
Sections 5 restoration products, 17 fasteners, and 18 electrical connectors would become appendices.
Section 1 would be a very large section containing only the production codes relevant to the book subject (E bodies). The codes would be listed in alphabetical order like they already are. Under each code would be all of the information pertinent to That Option.
The production codes are already organized in a logical format. A=Option Packages, B=Brakes, C=Consoles/seats/seat belts, D=Transmission/Axle, E=Engine, F=Alternator/battery, G=Glass/mirrors, H=Heating/air conditioning, J=Miscellaneous, L=Lights, M=Mouldings, N=Engine Accessories, P=Power Accessories, R=Radio, S=Suspension/Steering, T=14"Tires, U=15"Tires, V=Vinyl/paint, W=Wheels/Wheel covers, X=EXport, Y=Special
So, lets say you're judging a hemicuda. Start off by looking at all the standard equipment stuff from sections 2-16. Then move on to the options as listed on the broadcast sheet/fender tag of the car. Broadcast shows E74, flip to E74 in the book. Right there at your fingertips is all the info on what came with the E74 Hemi Engine. How to identify a Hemi engine, correct carbs, any inspection markings, Hemi K frame, says here that Hemi cars came with a pinion snubber reinforcement plate welded to the body above the axle, A note that says "'Cuda models equipped with E74 came standard with an N96 Shaker hood. Check that the car is coded for it and refer to the N96 section for more info." Etc. When you get to the end of the Broadcast sheet/fender tag, your done judging the car.
No more wading through 19 different intake manifolds that were never used on what your looking for in the section 10 Engine chapter.
I think that a new format as described above would save a LOT of time for the judges, and make the book infinitely more usable as a reference manual. Imagine being able to easily flip to anything you're looking for. I think the main reason people use the restoration/judging manual LESS than the fastener manual is that it can be difficult to find the specific information you're looking for because it's mixed in with a lot of other information under an umbrella heading. Reformatting the book as described above would Transform it into an indispensable restoration tool, even for the average restorer who doesn't care about having correct fasteners, and would make the book easily worth the $80 asking price, if not a $99 price.
Tav
Posted By: autoxcuda
Re: ICCA B and E body "Reference" manuals - 09/27/09 09:36 PM
Quote:
So, lets say you're judging a hemicuda. Start off by looking at all the standard equipment stuff from sections 2-16. Then move on to the options as listed on the broadcast sheet/fender tag of the car. Broadcast shows E74, flip to E74 in the book. Right there at your fingertips is all the info on what came with the E74 Hemi Engine. How to identify a Hemi engine, correct carbs, any inspection markings, Hemi K frame, says here that Hemi cars came with a pinion snubber reinforcement plate welded to the body above the axle, A note that says "'Cuda models equipped with E74 came standard with an N96 Shaker hood. Check that the car is coded for it and refer to the N96 section for more info." Etc. When you get to the end of the Broadcast sheet/fender tag, your done judging the car.
No more wading through 19 different intake manifolds that were never used on what your looking for in the section 10 Engine chapter.
I think that a new format as described above would save a LOT of time for the judges, and make the book infinitely more usable as a reference manual. Imagine being able to easily flip to anything you're looking for. I think the main reason people use the restoration/judging manual LESS than the fastener manual is that it can be difficult to find the specific information you're looking for because it's mixed in with a lot of other information under an umbrella heading. Reformatting the book as described above would Transform it into an indispensable restoration tool, even for the average restorer who doesn't care about having correct fasteners, and would make the book easily worth the $80 asking price, if not a $99 price.
Tav
Judging in the order of the buildsheet is not the most efficient way to judge. You'd be bouncing all over the physical areas of the car. If I'm under the car, I want to do the underside all at once or split the front a rear.
The detail of the OE Nats type judging is only capable of handling a handful or so of cars over a 2-3 day period with a team of judges dedicated just for that.
Posted By: 70RT
Re: ICCA B and E body "Reference" manuals - 09/28/09 01:24 PM
In all my dealings with Dave and the ICCA manual, he professes it to be nothing more than the best research he, and the other contributors, have seen to date. He also repeatedly states that it is a work in progress. As new material, documentation, and sound factual information, comes to light, the manual will be updated/corrected. I am most impressed by his willingness to listen to contrasting opinions where there are differences from what has been previously published. 
Posted By: sch1966
Re: ICCA B and E body "Reference" manuals - 10/02/09 05:22 PM
I got my manuals yesterday! They are incredible! I am not a hardcore guy wanting the absolute definitve word in building an OE cert car. I am just a hobbiest wanting good reference material to aid me when it comes time to work on my car. Not from a FSM standpoint but trying to use the right stuff whenever I can. Dave was wonderful to work with and everyone should appreciate the work him and his team put into this whether they agree with the info or not.
Thanks!
Thanks!