Who should I consult on my Hemi Challenger?

Those that know my collection, I'm a forward look guy 57-61. I was at Mecum Indy and really fell in love with the color combo on this Hemi car. I wanted to have a real hemi car in the collection at some point, but never expected it would be this soon. Here is the car I purchased:

https://www.mecum.com/lots/SC0517-282522/1970-dodge-hemi-challenger-rt/

I want the car to be right, but the knowledge gap between what we know and the true collectors of these cars know, is massive. We're very sharp on our specialty, but this is outside of that. Is there someone recognized who could come inspect the car and give some guidance on things we could do to make it as correct as possible? In a way, I know I'm what the hobby hates, someone who bought a car and doesn't know what they bought. I felt I was buying a real hemi car at a safe price that I could get out from one day and not get killed. All while having a great color combo that appealed to me. Now, I just want it to be accurate as can be. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Frank Baldason, and or Roger Gibson.

Frank Badalson and Dave Wise at www.mmcdetroit.com. Frank has written many articles on correct, original restos & Dave offers judges training and Barret Jackson also hires him to authenticate their Mopars. Frank sells correct paints & many correct parts and has a lot of info on his site http://www.rogergibsonautorestoration.com/frank/frank-badalson-home/

I bought his 2 stage Organisol and other parts for a Challenger hemi clone I once had & was really pleased.

A friend of mine has two Hemi Challengers. PM me and I'll give you his number. Maybe he can give you advice based on his experiences (including getting ripped off on paint and body work).

It looks good to me from what I can see. You should contact the person who restored the car and find out as much as you can about the previous condition , history , etc. Crawl under and confirm the engine/trans match,
make sure all your date codes and casting dates are within reason, and confirm the rad support / cowl number (all of which you should have done before purchase) Other than that, I would not worry about it . Store it in a climate controlled environment , and enjoy owning it .

Greg

Chances are Frank, Roger and Dave have already seen this car. I would definitely check with them.

Take it to Carlisle, enter the show, and review your score sheet after. It will be a nice checklist of what to "fix".

Those are not 2944450 wheels, and it has the wrong master cylinder... should have a 2229191.

5 very expensive parts... $4000-$6000 worth

The rear tail light panel should not be blacked out. Only T/As had that.

Numbers to check


front carb: 4742
rear carb:4746
Distributor: 2875989
Radiator: 2998956
Fan Clutch: 2806070
Exhaust Manifold (LH): 3418453

Along with the previously mentioned items, the underhood cowl needs blackout, remove that tag on the battery, that tag was never supplied nor correct, voltage regulator "should" be white lettered IMHO, that plastic zip tie on the heater hoses has to go, there's an aluminum strap tie for that...
Checkvalve on booster should be painted black as well (the entire booster/master assy was delivered to the line as a black painted assy), valve cover breather hose missing clips...remove the grommet from the headlight floor dimmer switch, factory just cut a slice for the dimmer, no grommet ever...You'll need correct HEMI battery cables/terminal ends, that's a difficult find though...the ralley dash woodgrain appears to be of 71 (Kasmir walnut) vintage, IMHO I'd change it out for the lighter American Walnut grain used on 70- to early/mid 71 E bodies. the darker reddish Kasmir grain was used mid 71- to 74 production...
IMHO the emission tag should be further back on the slanted portion of the sidewall, and it appears you need to change out one of the fender tag screws, as well as the aircleaner/filter element if correctness is your goal...

Nice car though! just a few small items that are easily rectified

If you need to replace the woodgrain instrument bezels, Performance Car Graphics, IMO, has the most accurate & best quality lithographed metal bezels. Had them on my Challenger & they were spot on. When I called them, they explained the wood & color differences between early & mid year. Great people to deal with.

http://www.performancecargraphics.com/Dash_Stuff/Woodgrain/E-body_Rallye_Wood_Plates_Short.htm

I'll be honest, not a car show guy. We drive all the stuff in the collection, including this. I want to appreciate the car, but also want to do what I can to get things right along the way. Everyone has their idea of fun with cars, entering a judged event just isn't my thing.

Thank you!

Wow! Amazes me how people know this off the top of their head. Thank you.

You know the same amount of things for the FL cars.

The voltage regulator should also have a raised bump to the right of the plug. Cab't tell from the pictures if it does, or not.

My goodness.. It would drive me nuts knowing the lock washer on the alternator bolt was incorrect........ LOL

Agree with all above but also Radiator cap should have the large rivet and the coil should have Green lettering.

Love the car so these things are just weekend choirs.
Ron

I was going to let this go, but I just can't. Telling me what I should or shouldn't have done before purchasing, is relative. I'm a car guy at heart. I'm not someone that buys a car and stares at it. My family drives all of my cars. Today my father is driving my 58 Desoto Adventurer convertible, there are 8 left in the world. I ran errands in my 300G convertible, had the interior stacked with boxes from running around. On my wheelhouse of cars, forward looks, I'm very careful, but occasionally you just want a car. I fell in love with this Hemi car. I didn't care if it wasn't perfect, didn't have everything matching. I had a price I was willing to pay, which was actually my final bid. I would not have bid again had someone bid against me.

If I bought the car and everything was wrong I would have been ok with that. It's a cool car, that was originally a hemi car, that's good enough to me. Now that I have it, over the next few years, we'll do things to fix the details. Sometimes owning a car should be about owning a cool car, not just investment.

Well said, and it's a damn nice car . You should be VERY proud to own it, as I know I sure would be. My point was, it is a damn nice car as it, just enjoy it.

But, you asked, and everybody tried to help.

Just doing some looking, finding those wheels doesn't look like a fun task.

Oh agreed! I've already started making a list and will begin getting the pieces mentioned. My point above was that I would have been ok if the car was far off. Since it's not terribly far off, I'll start collecting the items needed to slowly get these details right. Will everything get done, not sure, but I'll at least start gathering the parts.

Yah, the closer you get, the harder it is. The more you try, and the closer you get, the less you want to drive it, so I have decided to drive mine and let it be what it is. I hope to have it at the Marion show next spring.

I don't mind driving the rare stuff. I have multiple cars that less than 10 exist, all of them see road time. They all have insurance on them, which I hopefully never have to use. Some of these are AACA national cars. Don't get me wrong, I'm not going to go drive in a tornado, but if it's not raining, we're in an old car. The only time we trailer something, is an event like Carlisle. I took 8 cars to that event, we trailed 5 cars up. Next year I'll bring around 10.

Just one more word of wisdom. There are several well documented faults with the car. Some will even be expensive to cure. But I see a car that can be enjoyed, comes equipped with a rarity that will still will bring pride to the owner. Who knows, it five years you might uncover the parts to make it perfect.
Just my opinion.
Craig

I thought you said you weren't a car show guy when I suggested a Carlisle trip above?

There's a difference between attending and participating in a show for fun, rather than enter into a judged event, which was what you recommended, I asssume the OP's vehicles were most likely "Invitational Display" participants

If you say so. I just read he wasn't a car show guy. Bringing 10 cars to Carlisle. Wow!

I don't enter judged events. Just not my thing. I absolutely will attend a dozen or more Mopar events and at least 8-10 general events a year. I have all the respect in the world for those that do the judged events.

On another note, might have found 4 wheels that would fit my build. Hope to gets something done soon.

This was my setup at Carlisle this year. I setup on the manufactures Midway and pull out Saturday night. Next year plan on having a big tent 30 x 100 and will display 8 convertibles and 2 other cars. Still working out details, meeting with Carlisle shows this weekend at Sema.





AACA charity event a few weeks ago. I left right as judging started haha

I read the Mecum description of the car, and I would just want to take a good look at the transmission stamp as it probably won't be matching numbers to your car. I'd also take a good look at the number stamped on the engine and make sure it looks legit. I know it doesn't probably matter to you as your enjoyment is driving the car - but still, a guy wants to know what he bought.

Enjoy the car - if you're happy with it that is all that matters. And leaving when the judging starts, priceless.......................

Impressive, VERY impressive.
I would walk right past a Hemi Challenger to ck these out .

Me too! I wouldn't even notice the Hemi Challenger, and I'm an E-body fanatic.

That Hemi Challenger is a gorgeous and very desirable car. I am sure everyone here would love to own it! You have a fantastic collection!

Oh I wouldnt turn it down.
But if it came down to it versus either a 61 Chrysler 300 or maybe even a 58-59 300 conv. Its no contest for me. the 300 wins every time.

A buddy of mine has a 1958 300 conv ( major MAJOR project) he has been trying to sell me. I just cant wrap my head around that kind of project at this stage in my life . Had he offered it to me 20 years ago, I probably would have bought it.

If you are looking to improve the OEM appearance this is a good place to start if you have thick skin. There are others such as Performance Car Restoration in Canada, Frank Badalson, Mike Mansini, and lot of other choices that do OEM GOLD restorations. I like the car the way it is, Improve it over time with correct numbers and date coding and stamps and stuff like that but do use it like it was built for.

Good news on 1 of the parts. I have 4 dated coded wheels coming my way, 10 days before my build! Very excited. Next, start hunting the master cylinder.

youve got some beautiful forward look cars!!!

love those letter 300s!

ever hear of a hemi stick convertible 300?

Yes, they made a few letter car convertibles with manual transmissions. Rare for sure. The most desirable likely being the 300F convertible that sits in a collection in the north east.

Wow, what a collection. The era that cemented my attraction (OK, obsession) for MoPars was '57-'60 Letter cars; my cousin had one. Dad bought a '57 Plymouth new, but I still recall being absolutely stunned by that 300.

With a Hemi?

The only possible letter car hemi powered convertibles are 1957-1958. A 3 speed column shifted manual trans with a non synchro first gear was not what 300 buyers wanted, they were tired of driving farm tractors. The 3 speed torqueflite automatic was new and a pleasure to drive.

There was no full synchro floor shifted four speed in the 1950's that would hold up to 375 horsepower. When Chrysler put the 4 speed in the 1960 300 they had to go to France to procure one.

The customers that wanted a manual were the racers, but not in a convertible body.
I have seen two 3 speed hardtop 1958 300's. They were used as race cars when new.

it was sort of a baited question ,

since 1972 my dad has owned a 1957 300C convertible 392 Hemi, with a 3-speed on the column

i believe there were only 17 cars built with the 3-speed manual transmission, which cam with a higher horsepower engine and special camshaft.

there is a vin list of those 17 cars because there was a recall for the camshaft because Chrysler was concerned with premature failure of the camshaft due to the heavy duty valve springs

my dads car is the only convertible on the list

its pretty much a survivor with 1 repaint

car

Beautiful!!

Yes, I was well aware of that car. The 300F is still the most valuable by far: https://www.rmsothebys.com/en/auctions/M...vertible/192397

Car is now one of the nicest cars in the country, as is most stuff in the persons collection that owns it. The 300G hardtop sticks trade around 230-250.

A comment on the price of a G stick quoted above. One sold for that high amount a few years ago at a large auction It was a nice looking car in pictures, .

The auction write up was false and misleading. It included some of the facts and features of a 1960 300 F special floor shifted 4 speed vehicles that are rare and expensive. The write up blended this information together to the farm tractor 3 speed 1961 300 G that had standard G engines. Pretty smart for,the buyer to,do,that because the auction house doesn't know any better, and most buyers done either.

The 1960 300 F special has a different engine with different intake manifolds and more horsepower, very few were made. (less an 20?). The 1961 300 G with a 3 speed stick is the exact same car as an automatic with no other changes to the car or engine. Plenty of them were made they are seen for sale and they don't get sold quickly or have higher price tags.

You can't use one auction result to change the value of all cars. The value guides made zero changes to the values of the 1961 300 G after that auction.

The club members were conversing about the auction results on the message board and nobody thought that a 3 speed column shift car was any more valuable or in increased demand. Just the auction result where 2 bidders went crazy and paid too much.

It boils down to which one would you rather drive? And how much more would you pay, or how much less would you pay for a 3 speed manual with no synchro first gear?

What carburetors were on that 300F?

I'm heavily involved in the private market and I'm unaware of a stick G selling for anywhere near the same price as an auto. I have 9 letter cars, 5 hard tops and 4 convertibles. I'm not saying it's not possible, I just haven't seen it. The owner of the F wants 4 million according to a phone conversation I had with him. He also has the 58 desoto adventurer fuel injected convertible. He wants 2 million for that. I really hope he gets those prices, so it elevates my adventurer convertibles and letter cars lol.

Doesn't matter what you own. You have no idea what I own because I don't list my cars on here. Doesn't matter what I own either. We disagree. It's OK.

You said you can't use 1 car to set a market, which I fully agree. I also said I'm unaware of any stick G selling near an auto, but that it could be possible. It doesn't matter what I own, but it is relative to market experience. With no public offerings that I'm aware of showing sticks and auto's selling near the same price, combined with personal private market experience, that's how I form an opinion.

Where has a stick G car traded hands anywhere near an auto? You say they're the same, where?

Im not going argue with you, you like it too much! As noted in the hemi Dart thread.

I know your cars are amazing and I know you're very active in the 300 club. All I'm asking, for my own knowledge, is where has a stick car sold for similar price to an auto. That's what you claimed.

If everyone agreed in the car market, it would be awful. Discussion is what allows us to all become more knowledgeable. If you consider asking for proof of your statement, sticks sell for same as auto's, as arguing then you just have a unique definition. Almost everyone in the dart thread is aligned. The best, most original cars are bringing the big bucks. The majority are not that. 1 car has sold for 300, 5 cars were at 150. A lot of good info has come from that thread.

Update. Have a 4 correct wheels now that were dated 2 weeks prior to my build. Thanks to the member that gave me the lead on that. I still need to order the master cylinder, any recommendations on who?

We've been traveling a lot of late and haven't gotten a lot done. Car was missing the heat shield for the start. Exhaust was a mess, got that fixed. Fuel pickup was half destroyed. Got that replaced, tank replaced, inside coated, etc. Trying to get to all of this functional stuff first.

Once again, thank you to everyone that contacted me!

The person that said they had a starter heat shield just emailed me to tell me they don't. Ugh

Starter Shields (originals) have become extremely difficult to find/buy recently, just an ultra rare part due to so many being tossed back in the day. The last one I saw sell was 2 years ago and it was big money. Bryan Blake is working on a very accurate reproduction, hopefully they will be done soon and will be more accurate than current reproductions.

Bad timing, I had an NOS hemi master cylinder I was trying to sell for a while with no interest, but it finally got sold last summer to a guy from out west with a hemi cuda where his got swapped out (along with some other rare parts) while the car was in the possession of a sleazy broker. He was putting the car back to how it was and scooped my part up.
They are rare and worth around a grand unless you find one with a '69 or '70 date code, where a buyer doing a concours resto will pay a big premium.
That being said, they turn up from time to time on eBay, and there doesn't seem to be a huge market for them. 70-71 hemi owners already have the correct one, or in many cases just don't seem to care the one they have on their car is wrong I've found.
Ramman has had them for sale and may still now, I'm a little hesitant to recommend him as he's a little flaky. Great Lakes NOS has had one for sale and may still have it, but their price is outrageous, like $2500!
Otherwise, just watch eBay, one or two turn up per year, you'll find one sooner or later!

There is an unrestored dark green 1964 300 K hardtop with a 4 speed in the DC metro area. It is odd because the shifter comes out of the floor on the trans tunnel next to the console rather than through the top of the console. Can’t be many? Pretty cool to see it!

Master Cylinder came in. What color should it be?

Master cylinder, bail, lid, vacuum fitting & booster were painted as an assembly - black.

I answered that on page 1 of your post, but here's a pic to help you out...

Mike

Sorry about that! I'm normally not lazy like that, didn't think it was covered. It came in, looks good. We have the car out of the shop right now as dads 62 needs a little attention. Doing demo work on the museum now, hoping to have it up around end of March.

This has been an interesting thread. It is also interesting that you have started assembling parts before getting a real assessment of originality. I do not know of the car, but there are so many other items beyond the initial visuals that can cause issues if the goal is to get it right.

I purchased a car in a similar manner and I am happy with my purchases, but there are plenty of pitfalls.

Are the carb original, are the guts of the carbs orig? Are the fenders 70 fenders or later fender? Every part of the motor and auxiliaries are subject to being wrong or improperly assembled. How much of the car is reproduction parts versus original OEM type parts. Having worked with a Hemi builder, you can find plenty of things wrong that might make you just want to leave it alone and enjoy it.

Then again does any of this matter to you or the next buyer. Or if money not an object you can go an get this back to full OEM specs.

Problem with auctions is your already down 20% in value, so the car has to appreciate a lot to cover the fees and correction to a car.

It is all a matter about what is important to you in ownership of this car, and how far you want to go.

Good luck and I hope this is a very correct car for you. I agree, I like the colors.

We found a report in the trunk of the car from Galen. A lot of it aligns with what was posted here. While we had the car in doing some work, we made some changes that were easy to handle.




I know I won't have every item on it correct. Nor would I mis-represent the car should I ever sell it. I see no reason to not fix the obvious things that are wrong, such as the wheels/master cylinder. It has been fun learning as 90% of the cars I have are Forward Look.



I think for someone wanting a true OEM car, there are plenty of other cars that would be more appropriate for them. I see a ranking of cars, the Elite OEM show winners, the 80% and the 50%. I think this car is in the 80% area, eventually.



Depends on what the hammer price was.



Thanks! I'm sure as people come to look at the cars, I'll get a lot of feedback. I'm open to it, I'm just trying to learn. Some will hate the fact I bought a car because I just liked the car. Can't make everyone happy. Most have been really cool though.

IMHO, it's the only reason to buy/build/own any of these types of vehicles

Mike

Why do you use the word hate? I can't see how anyone could hate you for buying a car because you like it. They might hate you because you can buy a car they might not be able to afford, but that is a different reason:-)

Now they may criticize you for the amount you paid just because you liked it:-)

As far as price, yes regardless of hammer your down the fees. Maybe you got a bargain, but maybe not. It was also a public purchase, so the next potential buyer know what you paid. That may or may not effect the future sale price, but do we think 1970-71 cars will continue to be desired in another 10 year/ 20 years? I am not so sure. The younger crowd in the 25-35 demo buy foreign cars to hop up, or resto mod new Challengers and Chargers from the 2010 up era. I see more new Dodge at cars shows and no young members joining our Mopar club with old cars.

More old cars come on market as folks in the 60-80 down size and or pass on. Even rich guys in my age group stop buying muscle cars and start on exotics because that is what their 20ish kids like IMHO.

Everyone has opinions on what will happen with the market. My belief is in the forward look era cars have more room to go up than muscle cars. They're simpler to understand, have incredible styling and limited production. Of course I'm bias, because it's what I collect.

I'm one of the most laid back people you'll ever meet. Not much gets to me. I love the car hobby and most of the people in it. It blows my mind that no matter how long you've been doing it, you can learn something. I've learned about mini cars the past few months. They did some crazy promo cars back in the 50's. Now I'm trying to chase those types of things down.

I agree ,,,to a point. The problem with Forward look era cars is the crowd that wants/interested in them are getting smaller and smaller. 2nd, finding parts is considerably tougher then muscle car stuff . ( at least they have a decent reproduction market )

So I'm not 100% sure just how much they'll appreciate.
My gut tells me sooner than later,, we will see a peak never to be duplicated again.

Just for an example, sit back and ck out the crowd at any major car show, of any brand (( current ricer crowd excluded )) a vast majority of the people are closer to the end than they are to the beginning

Here is a Challenger and has been judged by Frank.

http://www.legendarymotorcar.com/inventory/1970-dodge-challenger-rtse-1717.aspx

As a car, I don't disagree, but future collectors aren't collecting them as cars, they're collecting them as art. The number of cars on the road 10 years from now will be fractional.



The best cars will always bring top money. I think the middle pack of muscle cars will really struggle, comparatively. I believe personal connection to muscle cars is what has propped them up, especially in the middle. When that goes away and cars start to be looked at as large pieces of art, rarity will matter. The forward looks cars have dramatic styling and are very limited in production, compared to muscle cars. I could be totally wrong, but I feel at this moment buying a 100k top end restored forward look will be pay off better 5-10 years from now than a similar muscle car.

My opinion doesn't mean anything but I agree about musclecar values. The cream of the crop is always going to be highly sought after but the more common "midrange" 60s/70s cars are either at their ultimate peak or near it, unless inflation takes the value of the dollar down enough for a perceived peak 30-40 years from now. The generation that grew up loving them is aging and the supply isn't going anywhere (more or less) so there'll be a point where the current 20/30somethings will be inheriting them all. Some will love them, some won't.

As a 34 year old I had to get into turbo buicks because I couldn't afford the old mopars that I wanted to get into. Now there's a feeding frenzy on 87 grand nationals and if it continues I might jump ship with one of my cars. But it's so hard to argue with 20 mpg and cruise control and air conditioning for road trips. So I may have a 4 speed b body for local fun and something more practical for the power tour and other road trips.

None of this has anything to do with a correct resto on a hemi challenger, but I do admire the attention to detail in this thread.

Right but using that logic a new Challenger starts looking better than any 1980's Buick......Just sayn'

*Moparo, on that Blue Challenger, very nice respectable example for sure but just because Frank judged it doesn't mean he deemed it "perfect". Even the very best O.E. restored cars still have faults and that one is no exception, example, the small red plastic plug in the Dana should be green plastic (reproductions are all red) and then painted black. So you need to use caution using a restored car as reference for original details.

I've mentioned this across multiple collector threads. Values are also driven by equitable events. Collections are ran as a loss leader that push losses against huge tax hits people have for various reasons. One of the reasons you see people grab a lot of cars in a short period of time, also selling them in short periods of time. As economic booms continue, prices will rise as people look for different area's to place cash and adjust their tax hit. Money is very cheap right now, plenty of collectors building collections on cheap interest rates.

Values are up and down. the Real value is what someone will actually put in your hand tomorrow. after that its all speculation.

The next 30 days will be interesting as a ton of cars are up for sale between the various auction houses. Almost all muscle cars, very few forward looks. Surprised there isn't more discussion on the boards about the cars.