Posted By: smac77
Lead vs Filler - 02/19/09 09:38 PM
This may have been done before but let's here some veiws for lead or lead free solder vs filler in a factory panel seam, ie: 1/4 panel to roof where the joint is quite large?
Lead vs Filler
This may have been done before but let's here some veiws for lead or lead free solder vs filler in a factory panel seam, ie: 1/4 panel to roof where the joint is quite large?
Posted By: Neil
Re: Lead vs Filler - 02/19/09 09:52 PM
I'd use lead.
I redid mine in plastic just because the vinyl top is going back on. If I didn't have the top I would have replaced the plastic with lead. That is the way the factory did it in the first place.
I redid mine in plastic just because the vinyl top is going back on. If I didn't have the top I would have replaced the plastic with lead. That is the way the factory did it in the first place.
Posted By: smac77
Re: Lead vs Filler - 02/19/09 10:20 PM
Quote:
I'd use lead.
I redid mine in plastic just because the vinyl top is going back on. If I didn't have the top I would have replaced the plastic with lead. That is the way the factory did it in the first place.
funny you mentioned that, I have a friend with a challenger that just went into the trim shop for a new vinyl top becuase the guy that did the car used filler in the seam and it started to bubble and lift away...car was done within the last 10 years, and has seen very little miles.. so it didn't last long....
Posted By: Neil
Re: Lead vs Filler - 02/20/09 12:46 AM
My original filler was still in decent shape when I took the vinyl top off, but sooner or later it will let go. I'd rather it not be when I put a new top back on so I chose to replace it with fresh material.
If the factory stuff lasted 38 years then this should last just as long. It will be kept inside most of the time and rarely see water so it should be ok. I'm going to have the roof painted with a good thick coat of base-clear urethane paint so that should lock out any moisture. It has to be a whole lot better than the light dusting of enamel the factory gave it.
Filler lifting is caused by the surface not being cleaned properly most likely.
If the factory stuff lasted 38 years then this should last just as long. It will be kept inside most of the time and rarely see water so it should be ok. I'm going to have the roof painted with a good thick coat of base-clear urethane paint so that should lock out any moisture. It has to be a whole lot better than the light dusting of enamel the factory gave it.
Filler lifting is caused by the surface not being cleaned properly most likely.
Posted By: ringo440
Re: Lead vs Filler - 02/20/09 12:59 AM
SMC is the best thing i have used, SMC is used to bond corvette bodies together. SMC cures into a very hard film, but it remains flexable enough that it will not crack . 
Posted By: NITROUSN
Re: Lead vs Filler - 02/20/09 01:01 AM
Quote:
This may have been done before but let's here some veiws for lead or lead free solder vs filler in a factory panel seam, ie: 1/4 panel to roof where the joint is quite large?
Its been discussed before and the factory seemed to have lead in the painted roofs and plastic in the vinyl top models. I would prefer lead.
Posted By: smac77
Re: Lead vs Filler - 02/20/09 01:28 AM
Quote:Quote:
This may have been done before but let's here some veiws for lead or lead free solder vs filler in a factory panel seam, ie: 1/4 panel to roof where the joint is quite large?
Its been discussed before and the factory seemed to have lead in the painted roofs and plastic in the vinyl top models. I would prefer lead.
I've never seen plastic behind a vinyl from the factory? Not pre 73 anyway, they've always been lead in any that I've removed...
Posted By: elitecustombody
Re: Lead vs Filler - 02/20/09 01:51 AM
Quote:
SMC is the best thing i have used, SMC is used to bond corvette bodies together. SMC cures into a very hard film, but it remains flexable enough that it will not crack .
if that works for you,lol, I'd never use something that was developed for composites on metal, they have a metal bonding adhesive that will work much better ,it was designed to work with metal
Posted By: mopargem
Re: Lead vs Filler - 02/20/09 01:54 AM
My 71 B body has lead on each end with bondo in the middle, I remember other cars I had with bondo like 69 b bodies, cant remeber if just the ends were leaded.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Lead vs Filler - 02/20/09 01:59 AM
My 70 Superbee with vinyl top has plastic filler where my 72 Duster w/o vinyl top has lead. Both were done this way in the factory.
Posted By: Topcat
Re: Lead vs Filler - 02/20/09 02:29 AM
I used the Eastwood lead kit on mine. Took a few times to figure out the right amount of heat to get it to smear how you intended.
I watched videos first on you Tube and then the Eastwood video. Way better than a huge chunk of Mud I think.
I watched videos first on you Tube and then the Eastwood video. Way better than a huge chunk of Mud I think.
Posted By: 1_WILD_RT
Re: Lead vs Filler - 02/20/09 02:38 AM
Quote:
I used the Eastwood lead kit on mine. Took a few times to figure out the right amount of heat to get it to smear how you intended.
I watched videos first on you Tube and then the Eastwood video. Way better than a huge chunk of Mud I think.
You picture looks like you used a grinder with 36 grit to cut the lead...A bit of advice..Lead is still toxic, thats why it isn't used much...Shape the lead close with a paddle while it is workable then cut it with a body file...Keep dust to a minimum & where a mask....
Posted By: NITROUSN
Re: Lead vs Filler - 02/20/09 02:47 AM
Quote:Quote:Quote:
This may have been done before but let's here some veiws for lead or lead free solder vs filler in a factory panel seam, ie: 1/4 panel to roof where the joint is quite large?
Its been discussed before and the factory seemed to have lead in the painted roofs and plastic in the vinyl top models. I would prefer lead.
I've never seen plastic behind a vinyl from the factory? Not pre 73 anyway, they've always been lead in any that I've removed...
All I have seen is plastic. here is a virgin 69. Pics not the best.
Posted By: Topcat
Re: Lead vs Filler - 02/20/09 02:49 AM
Quote:Quote:
I used the Eastwood lead kit on mine. Took a few times to figure out the right amount of heat to get it to smear how you intended.
I watched videos first on you Tube and then the Eastwood video. Way better than a huge chunk of Mud I think.
Your picture looks like you used a grinder with 36 grit to cut the lead...A bit of advice..Lead is still toxic, thats why it isn't used much...Shape the lead close with a paddle while it is workable then cut it with a body file...Keep dust to a minimum & where a mask....
I used the Eastwood file cheese grater file in that picture. Yes I did use a mask whenever and would stop breathing as much as possible around it. Swept area slowly after with a hand brush using small strokes so as not to kick up lead dust. Also a hand operated pnuematic vacuum made by Blue Point/Snap On to pick up the shavings. Cool little tool.
Posted By: Topcat
Re: Lead vs Filler - 02/20/09 02:59 AM
Quote:Quote:Quote:Quote:
This may have been done before but let's here some veiws for lead or lead free solder vs filler in a factory panel seam, ie: 1/4 panel to roof where the joint is quite large?
Its been discussed before and the factory seemed to have lead in the painted roofs and plastic in the vinyl top models. I would prefer lead.
I've never seen plastic behind a vinyl from the factory? Not pre 73 anyway, they've always been lead in any that I've removed...
All I have seen is plastic. here is a virgin 69. Pics not the best.
The original material they used as filler from the factory underneath vinyl top cars wasn't a body filler I have ever seen before.
When I removed mine years ago, it flew off like saw dust. It seemed porus, almost flexible. This would make sense so any body shift and it wouldn't likely crack. These were my personal reasons why I went with lead instead. Body fillers have come a long way since back in the 80's when I first filled it with Body filler. Later on, my car (black back then) had a band aid effect later on right at the quarter panel seam. At shows, I have seen others with this problem also.
Posted By: Topcat
Re: Lead vs Filler - 02/20/09 03:31 AM
I've never seen plastic behind a vinyl from the factory? Not pre 73 anyway, they've always been lead in any that I've removed...
All I have seen is plastic. here is a virgin 69. Pics not the best.
My car is a Gran Coupe originally.
Production Oct. 70. It had the factory body filler underneath.
Posted By: Firepowerflyer
Re: Lead vs Filler - 02/20/09 03:48 AM
My 69 GTX had orginal paint and top and it had plastic under the top.
Joe
Joe
Posted By: sixpaktoogo
Re: Lead vs Filler - 02/20/09 09:28 AM
Here is my observation over the years - lead on non vinyl top cars, and caulking on vinyl top cars. Yes, I said caulking! The same stuff they used on the trunk seams. Not plastic filler.
Posted By: Firepowerflyer
Re: Lead vs Filler - 02/20/09 01:45 PM
Unless it varied from plant to plant mine smelled like bondo when I ground it out of the seam,but who knows.With the quality of the products now days there should be NO worries about using it,if it's prep right.
Joe
Joe
Posted By: RestoRick
Re: Lead vs Filler - 02/20/09 02:59 PM
The factory "Process Standard" paperwork I've seen & read, states the filler used under vinyl was a heat cured material. (Called Plasti-sol IIRC).
Similar to bondo, but as mentioned, more like the hardness of the factory seam sealer.
It failed miserably when moisture would get behind it through the open spot welded roof seam and cause rusting & filler puckering.
I've personally seen one or two cars with lead used under an original vinyl top, but I'm of the opinion that most were done with the plastic material.
The seam needs to be welded solid and pinhole free in order for plastic fillers to last.
I'm a firm believer in welding the seam solid and using lead filler on painted top cars.
More info on the lead vs. plastic debate here...
Leadwork 101
Rick
Similar to bondo, but as mentioned, more like the hardness of the factory seam sealer.
It failed miserably when moisture would get behind it through the open spot welded roof seam and cause rusting & filler puckering.
I've personally seen one or two cars with lead used under an original vinyl top, but I'm of the opinion that most were done with the plastic material.
The seam needs to be welded solid and pinhole free in order for plastic fillers to last.
I'm a firm believer in welding the seam solid and using lead filler on painted top cars.
More info on the lead vs. plastic debate here...
Leadwork 101
Rick
Posted By: DPelletier
Re: Lead vs Filler - 02/20/09 11:30 PM
Add me to the list;
my factory '70 V1X top car had the factory plastic filler. I was also of the opinion that only painted roofs got the lead (although I'm sure there were exceptions)
Cheers,
Dave
my factory '70 V1X top car had the factory plastic filler. I was also of the opinion that only painted roofs got the lead (although I'm sure there were exceptions)
Cheers,
Dave
Posted By: AdamR
Re: Lead vs Filler - 02/21/09 12:57 AM
71 Barracuda at the shop has vinyl top and filler in the roof seems
So does my 71 Dart.
So does my 71 Dart.
Posted By: denfireguy
Re: Lead vs Filler - 02/22/09 05:02 PM
Quote:Quote:Quote:
This may have been done before but let's here some veiws for lead or lead free solder vs filler in a factory panel seam, ie: 1/4 panel to roof where the joint is quite large?
Its been discussed before and the factory seemed to have lead in the painted roofs and plastic in the vinyl top models. I would prefer lead.
I've never seen plastic behind a vinyl from the factory? Not pre 73 anyway, they've always been lead in any that I've removed...
My 73 is lead. The rest of the vinyl portion of the roof was primer with some body color overspray and that is it. There was no rust when the vinyl was removed. There was some rust in the passenger lower quarter that was replaced but in my opinion, it was attacked from the interior from other rust in that quarter allowing moisture into the trunk.
Craig
Posted By: smac77
Re: Lead vs Filler - 02/24/09 01:36 AM
Thanks guys for all the input...
I'm currently doing a 70 cuda, 68 charger, 69 dart and a 70 challenger... all vinyls all factory lead....all had either some rot or deep pitting underneath the lead... so although it's been in there for 30 plus years it did fail...
I've always re-done mine with lead but the reason I posted this was I heard a number of positive feedback comments on another forum about welding the seems shut (like resto rick said above), epoxying and using evercoats everglass then a light skim of rage on top and you're done... no moisture problems as the everglass on the bottom is waterproof, no acid trap to worry about with lead.... Anyone used it before? here's a link: http://www.evercoat.com/productDetail.aspx?pID=36
I'm currently doing a 70 cuda, 68 charger, 69 dart and a 70 challenger... all vinyls all factory lead....all had either some rot or deep pitting underneath the lead... so although it's been in there for 30 plus years it did fail...
I've always re-done mine with lead but the reason I posted this was I heard a number of positive feedback comments on another forum about welding the seems shut (like resto rick said above), epoxying and using evercoats everglass then a light skim of rage on top and you're done... no moisture problems as the everglass on the bottom is waterproof, no acid trap to worry about with lead.... Anyone used it before? here's a link: http://www.evercoat.com/productDetail.aspx?pID=36
Posted By: smac77
Re: Lead vs Filler - 02/24/09 01:44 AM
Quote:good article rick, maybe the guys at chrysler should have been as careful with their prep!
The factory "Process Standard" paperwork I've seen & read, states the filler used under vinyl was a heat cured material. (Called Plasti-sol IIRC).
Similar to bondo, but as mentioned, more like the hardness of the factory seam sealer.
It failed miserably when moisture would get behind it through the open spot welded roof seam and cause rusting & filler puckering.
I've personally seen one or two cars with lead used under an original vinyl top, but I'm of the opinion that most were done with the plastic material.
The seam needs to be welded solid and pinhole free in order for plastic fillers to last.
I'm a firm believer in welding the seam solid and using lead filler on painted top cars.
More info on the lead vs. plastic debate here...
Leadwork 101
Rick
Posted By: burdar
Re: Lead vs Filler - 02/24/09 01:54 AM
Quote:
My 73 is lead. The rest of the vinyl portion of the roof was primer with some body color overspray and that is it.
My 73 Challenger has filler in the roof NOT lead. I took the origonal vynal top off the car. It was primered underneith.
Posted By: Flo
Re: Lead vs Filler - 02/24/09 09:39 AM
my67 Fury had lead under the vinyl roof.
I left the lead on as that was one of the few places where there was no rust.
If I replaced something I would use a high quality body filler. The acid you are using with the lead can cause severe trouble especially in seams.
I left the lead on as that was one of the few places where there was no rust.
If I replaced something I would use a high quality body filler. The acid you are using with the lead can cause severe trouble especially in seams.
Posted By: denfireguy
Re: Lead vs Filler - 02/24/09 10:49 PM
Quote:
Quote:
My 73 is lead. The rest of the vinyl portion of the roof was primer with some body color overspray and that is it.
My 73 Challenger has filler in the roof NOT lead. I took the origonal vynal top off the car. It was primered underneith.
I took the original off too. Maybe it was where it was made at. Mine was from Hamtramck.
Craig
Posted By: Topcat
Re: Lead vs Filler - 02/25/09 02:59 AM
Quote:
The acid you are using with the lead can cause severe trouble especially in seams.
I don't agree with that entirely. The big word here is CAN. If you do a thorough cleaning of the area after the work is done, it'll be fine. Pock holes and any small crevices can hold the acid. But again, it needs to be a smooth layer as possible and cleaned real well after.
Posted By: gomangoRTSE
Re: Lead vs Filler - 02/25/09 04:22 AM
Regardless of what you prefer, 97% of those in this room have little or no experience in lead work. I heated up areas of my car where the lead got hot enough fall off. That was beneath the door in and around where the rear qtr panel seams/kick panel area is. I refilled it with a good quality Evercoat Rage Extreme after cleaning it out very well. I didnt try and melt all the lead out, just enough where it was seamed and just below the natural body line level.