restoring the undercarriage questions

First, please excuse my lack of knowledge on this as I just inherited a 69 roadrunner which my grand pop bought new. He gave this to me on my 18th birthday back in Feb. and while the car is pretty beat up, it still has an awesome look to her. I can't express how surprised I was when my grand pop gave me the keys. I think I gave him a hug so big and hard that I heard a rib crack but he said he was ok. lol

Anyway, since this is my second car (non daily driver) I want to fix it up and make it look nice. My Dad's friend has a GTX which is a trailer queen but I don't think I'll be going that route. I want this to be a nice show car / cruise night car but at the same time, when I redo the front end and under carriage, I don't want to have that "rattle can black" which a lot of people seem to do or have undercoating all over the place.

So onto my question(s).... what color are the front end parts supposed to be? Will I need any special tools and if so, where can I get them from? Who is a good company to use? My Dad's friend told me to avoid Yer Done? Who is that company? I'm sure I'm asking too much of people on here with being a new guy and having all these questions, but I don't want to keep bugging my Dad's friend all the time. I'd like to do the work on the car myself and have something to be proud of and give my grand pop rides around now and then as a thank you for what he did for me.

thank you,

Sam

Hello Sam and welcome to the RR world. Lol
Yer Done is supposed to be Year One. I have a friend local to me that I buy all my parts from. You should see if someone in your area does this and that would save you shipping costs. Ask around if you don't know who that person or business might be.

The front suspension should all be bare metal except for the lower arms and those have cosmoline on them. There is some stuff that needs special tools to work on but as you work thru it I am sure you will find someone that has them and can help you. Maybe find a local mopar club and join it and go from there.

As for what stuff should look like I use the Liftoff Hood Playground website as they have a project page with TONS of info and Photos. It's for only the 69 A12 RR and Superbees and they have done their research on those 2 cars. I am going thru a resto on a RR now also and I painted all my suspension stuff the bare metal colors to look stock. Eastwood Auto parts has paints, tools etc to help you with your car.

Hope that helps you some. Post a couple photos of the car and ask away on what you need to know. Good Luck Sam,
David

Hello Sir,

Thank you for your reply. I guess that is why I could not find that company in a Google search since I did not have the name right. I could have swore he said Yer Done though. Oh well. They sound close so I probably misunderstood him.

What is this cosmoline paint ? Is that a special kind of paint ? Can I get that at Walmart or Home Depot? Also, by bare do you mean a dull gray or a shiny gray or silver? (sorry, this is a lot to take in right now)

There is a local Mopar club up around here but it seems to be mostly new Mopars and they kind of have a stuck up attitude so I doubt I'll join them. I remember my grand pop telling me about something with A12. That was a racing package or handling package right?

I'd love to try and post some pics however, all I have is my older style flip cell phone that was my Dad's old one. It still works so we see no reason to get rid of it. The camera isn't the biggest or best quality and I really don't know how to upload the picture to get it on here from my cell phone.

The first time you do something, especially brakes and suspension, it really would be best to have some experienced help by your side. As to the parts themselves, I have always used Moog for suspension parts. Although I have ran into some issues with them recently.

You didn't say what you plan to do to the front end, but asked about special tools. Here are a few items and what it takes to change them; Upper ball joints will require a special socket and are easiest to remove and install with an impact. Upper control arm bushings are easiest to change when you build a jack shaft set-up. Lower control arm bushings will require pulling the torsion bars which can require some big sockets, pry bar or some way to clamp them to beat them back. The bushings themselves are best removed with a cut-off wheel and hydraulic press.

This is just the tip of the ice berg. If the front end has never been apart, an oxy-acetyline torch is often handy to help with removing those bolts that have been in place for 45 years or so. And on and on.

We all need some help getting started in a hobby. This is especially true with hi-performance automobiles. Good luck and enjoy!

Hello Sir,

Thank you for the advice. I am lucky enough to have had two years of auto shop in my high school before I graduated and started my freshman year of college this year. I have done brakes on my daily driver (1990 Jeep Cherokee) as well as other routine maintenance like changing the oil and spark plugs.

My plans are to try and rebuild everything on this car so that I have no squeaks or rattles (as that drives me crazy in cars). The car does seem to have a lot of body roll (is that normal for cars of this age) but with being new to all of this, it could just be a characteristic of the car. I also thought about possibly upgrading parts on the car in place of the factory ones. I thought about putting in the better hemi springs. If I do that, do I need to upgrade the torsion bars too?

May I suggest that you define the end uses of the car BEFORE making any decisions on parts? Determining if the "body roll" is excessive or normal is something that an experienced B body owner would be able to define for you after a short ride. I don't think there is much other way.

What, in your opinion, makes "Hemi" springs "better"? Again, what are your goals? Heavier springs (and torsion bars) could show an improvement for some goals, but not for others. Bigger (or stiffer) is not necessarily better. Which is why ALL B bodies didn't get the same springs or torsion bars.

In 1969, heavier springs were added to control the rear suspension when applying power. And in doing so, ride was sacrificed and, to some extent, handling. A perfect example where bigger (heavier) is good for some things, but worse for others.

Define your goals and ask here for suggestions on how to achieve those goals. Asking 'should I do this or should I do that' will usually be answered with 'that would depend on the intended usage'. But the massive amount of experience here can help keep you on the straight and narrow.

As Dave says, define what you want the car to be and do; meaning, do you want to return it to a nice driver, upgrade the handling, or restore the car to correct/original finishes? The last can get expensive and requires maintaining the bare-metal surfaces, as well as duplicating some of the dipped finishes and the cosmoline, which is a waxy substance that results in a goldish color. Cosmoline's been used since at least WW2 to protect bare metal from rusting for awhile.
You can pretty much duplicate the various finishes with rattle-can paint. The parts themselves will tell you what finish they originally have after cleaning them. Also note any colors marked on the parts, which are inspection or in some cases ID marks. It'll be basically a forensic research as you disassemble the car & clean the parts.
Fasteners also had different finishes, which you can either duplicate by replating or just clean them and maybe paint for the black ones.
Upper control arms will be either black or bare metal depending on supplier. Most all of the black is a satin finish, except torsion bars which were fairly shiny & full of runs as they were dipped.
There are lots of reference photos around, and Mopar Action magazine is a good source (paper or online) for reference & accuracy.

IMO its your car do it the way you want. The correct way is the cosmoline that resto rick sells. I just did a set of control arms for a 69 bee that was blasted. I primed them and sprayed them with a cast blast paint from dulicolor then taped off the line and sprayed the cosmoline from resto rick. It looks the look and they wont rust where not coated with his stuff. I also have just blasted the chassis parts and primed them with epoxy primer and painted them with a semi gloss black. All depends on what ya want to do with the car. I have one customer that painted the entire underbody of his car as nice as the top side. He wont drive that car. The car I am doing for him now we undercoated with resto rick's undercoating so he can drive and enjoy it. I have other cars that I have restored that we sprayed bedliner on the underside after blasting the bottom. Gives a heck of a protection for rocks and a great sound deadener too.

Buy a copy of "Mopar B-Body Restoration: 1966-1970" by Kevin Shaw (Author), Mike Wilkins (Author) on Amazon.

Lots of great tips
Jim

Sam,
Like what has been said, determine what you want for an end result and let us know. We can try and steer you in the right direction to accomplish your goal.
One thing I have found out is this is an EXPENSIVE hobby so you may have to do the car in smaller steps till you get it done to your liking.
Metals have different colors to them. Stamped steel is lighter silver them a cast steel part, etc. If you paint the items make sure they are prepaid correctly, no grease, no wax, bare metal, a good epoxy primer then paint. Taking short cuts will make you having to redo it sooner then you probably want too.

Do a search on the Liftoff Hood Playground and look in the project section. Just because you have a regular RR almost all the finishes are the same as an A12 RR.
I still say find someone around your area that has done this stuff for any help you may need. Most people will be willing to help a new hobbyist get rolling.
Here is an engine compartment photo I used off the web for guidance on my project.
David
p.s. I have heard the book mentioned above is a good source for info.

Here is a sample of the different colors of cast and stamped steels. The adjuster sleeves are lighter then the rest of the parts.

Here is my front suspension all done. Look close and you can see the different colors. It's not 100% factory looking but it's close. It's a LOT of work doing it like this. The yellow on the lower arms is like how the factory dipped them in cosmoline.

Hello everyone,

Thank you all for your responses. Im sorry that this might sound like a really long response but here I go. I'm hoping to improve the handling and make the car a little more quick from a dead stop. Plus I really like the raked look of some of these cars that have been built up in the back end.

His and hers 69s,

Those parts look amazing ! That is just the look I will be going after. While I might not have the exact look (as you or someone else said bare metal parts) I would like to have it look the same while having some kind of rust protection like covering it in paint. If I can get my parts to look like those in your picture, I would be really happy.

My goal is to have one major area done each year. Like work on the engine compartment one year, front end the next, rear axle, etc. This way I can hopefully still take it out and enjoy it while also getting it cleaned up at the same time and hopefully not putting myself too much into debt with my credit card. I know my family will be giving me a lot of help with this as I've already told them to get me stuff for the car for holidays, birthday, etc. I'm eager to get to working on this and get this car looking amazing again.

Thanks,

Sam

This book will help you so much. It is written specifically for people who are just like you. Also this forum is a great tool for valuable information and support.

Hi MoparMike69,

I have it ordered on Amazon and should have it in the next day or two. Im eagerly awaiting to get it and broaden my knowledge on these cars.

Suspension and brakes are intertwined and are usually done together in restos/rebuilds like you are doing to your RR. While you have it all apart, convert the front brakes to disc. It can be done with junk yard or auto parts store parts, so the costs are not high and you can keep it all Mopar. The rears can stay drum, no problem. But changing the fronts to disc will save you a lot of grief without costing an arm and a leg and takes no modifications to the vehicle.

And convert the brake system from DOT 3 to silicone DOT 5.

I've considered doing just that DaveRS23, however, I learned while in auto shop, my friend tried doing a "customization" like that to his vehicle and when there was a problem, he alone knew what parts he used but the place he brought his car too did not. I'd rather stick to the stock parts as this way if it is something that I can not fix, at least who or wherever I bring it to won't have to worry about this part came from such and such a car. The only way I want to upgrade something is with parts that were still available to this car during its production. If I do decide to upgrade to disc brakes, I'll probably locate the optional disc brake set up for it. There is a guy in NJ a couple towns over from me who had a complete set for sale a while ago. Right now I just want to focus on getting it safe and on the road again.

Thank you for mentioning DOT 5 fluid. I did consider that too, however, the performance parts store by me only sells it by the gallon. All that I have seen at local general auto parts stores is DOT 3 and 4. I have not seen any place yet that sells pints or quarts of DOT 5. Should I get a leak while I am out at a show, I wouldn't be able to either fix it there or on the road someplace. I might be able to get the part that failed but trying replace the DOT 5 is next to impossible.

Sam, the suggestions that DaveRS23 gave is something that you NEED to reconsider. Either do it now while you have it apart or chances are you'll end up doing it later and you might kick yourself in the rear for not doing it while the front is apart. Parts are readily available with the brake parts and with DOT5 in small quantities. If you live in a remote area (sticks) you can still get parts. Internet is helpful for forums and for finding parts. Not trying to be smart a**, just saying

my one buddy has a 70 super bee. as it has manual brakes, i suggested a disc swap almost from the time he got it almost 30years ago. shortly after he got it on the road, he started to have "pulling" problems with it when braking, but stubbornly, lived with it. coming back from a show one time, the one front wheel locked up. after sitting along the road for a while, he got it worked loose, so he started for home. after a few more stops because the front wheels would become hot due to dragging brakes, he made it home. when i took it apart, the linings were cooked and the springs showed heat related coloring. i suggested the disc swap again, but no. however, he did pop for wheel cylinders and new front hoses as well as springs and linings. got NAPA's best. then it was squeeks, pulling again, and it really didn't stop very well. i come to find out he didn't turn the drums. so off to get that done. still the same thing. now, at this time, he had the same amount of money [or very close to it] in it as he would have had if he swapped to discs, and it STILL DIDN'T STOP VERY GOOD ! then, he finally changed over to discs at my firm insistence. "WOW ! i can't believe how this thing stops now ! i should have listened to you long ago !" you have been given very good advice on the disc conversion, and now is the best time to change over when you already have it apart. since you are changing out the lines and hoses anyway, a disc brake hose is not any more [maybe a buck or 2 at the most] expensive than a drum hose, and you certainly won't re-use your dot5 fluid over when [not if,when] you swap over at a later date. repeat : now is the time ! you will be GLAD you did. there is no "customization" involved, and you aren't doing anything that can't be undone in the future. if you are afraid about not knowing what parts you used, keep notes of the part numbers of the components, or just write down the model and year of the complete factory setup you end up using. there is a reason all vehicles use disc brakes on the front wheels now, and nobody will give you any grief for this important safety change over. just think, it could amount to "boy, that was close" as opposed to "where am i going to get some fenders and a hood ?"

I appreciate all of your input but I saw the horror that my buddy went through with his Jeep. I know and understand what everyone is saying and like I said, I do appreciate it. I guess it is one of those things that I will have to think about but I'd rather not have to "guess" what parts may or may not work or have to have a bunch of paper work with me when I go to the auto parts store (or even keep with the car) if I break down on the road some place. Like I said, I am ok with finding and putting the factory disc brake set up if I can get one. This way everything is still the same in the service manual that my grand pop got for this vehicle.

A guy not too far from me has a Daytona (man I wish I had that car!!!!!) and he took me for a ride in it once (I think I'm still high from the rush and that was over a year ago) and his Daytona had factory disc brakes. It did stop pretty well so maybe I will just look for getting parts for that set up then. I saw that they reproduce the booster for it and I think the master cylinders are easy to come by as they are on RockAuto. The hard part will be trying to find the other parts for the front end.

As for now, I think the best approach is to go over the car and start with replacing all the fluids, doing a tune up, and inspecting the brakes. This way I can at least get the car mobile and start working on one big section at a time. The engine does seem pretty strong still and I'm not certain if I will pull the engine out of the compartment or not. I will most likely just pull the stuff I can off the engine and repaint it in the engine compartment. I know it will mean a lot of masking things off but with the space I have in the garage, it might be what has to work for now.

Oh, what is everyones choice for oil now? I was considering using the Castrol Edge titanium stuff in 10W-30. Is that good to use or is there a better one that everyone else is using? I was also going to use a Purolator P30001 filter. Is that ok to use also? I heard the horror stories about Fram so I'll be sure to stay away from that brand.

Sorry this was so long.... I'm new at this and have a bunch of questions.

You are not working on a Jeep.

You have gotten good experienced advice on your kind of vehicle from a source that you sought out, but dismiss that advice in favor of one person's experience with a different kind of vehicle.

Good luck with your build.

I know I am not working on a Jeep. Again, I appreciate the advice, but I would prefer to put a stock or optional system for that year on the car. I have a factory service manual for the car that my grand pop had gotten years ago. If something breaks, I'd at least have a resource to fix it. What torque do you tighten the other stuff down to? Would I have to get a separate service manual just for the different braking system?

Again, I appreciate everyones input but I want to keep the thing so I don't have to remember what or where something came from. If I wanted to build a hot rod, then sure, maybe I would go for something like that. That is not what my goal is.

If you have a factory service manual it's all in there

Here's my :two cents:

I just finished a rotisserie resto on my GTS. The car was done with driveability in mind. I would like to think of doing something like this in stages. If major overhaul is what you have in mind start with dropping the k member assembly which includes the engine and suspension. Of course you'll need some front end stands with rollers

Next remove the engine and transmission. Now dis assemble the front suspension. Start cleaning. The k member will be the biggest challenge in getting cleaned. Hopefully you have a machine shop locally that has an old fashioned hot tank. Now order your suspension parts.

At this point start on the engine compartment. Remove from the engine compartment as much as you feel comfortable with. At this point scrub every thing down and pressure wash. Once it's dry tape off everything you didn't remove. At this point you can go ahead and scuff up the paint or just get someone to do touch up with an airbrush

When you get all the suspension parts set them aside and start cleaning upper A arms, lower A arms, torsion bars etc. once that's accomplish decide how detailed you want the suspension to be. You would be supprised at what you can do with a spray can of paint. This would be a good time to freshen the brakes

If the engine is good with no need for disassembly, same for the tranny now is the time to strip it and detail. Again lots of cleaning. Get yourself several cans of engine paint, I would assume Hemi orange and spray away. The tranny just needs some cleaning and a fresh coat of aluminum silver or a real light coat of gray. Owners preference. Once all this completed put every thing together on the k member and reinstall the the entire assembly.

The next step would be all the areas under the car to include addressing the brake lines, parking brake cables etc. is the car under coated? If so, again remove as much as you can, try and get the car up as high as you can and pressure wash. Once dry, tape everything off and reapply fresh under ciating by either a bomb can or purchase a under coating,/bed liner product such as Rhino liner.

Once all that's done re assemble and move to the rear of the car.

I was able to get the rear wheels pulled off the car this weekend and I am glad that I did. The rear axle seal seems to have been leaking into the axle bearings and running out into the brakes. How can I tell if it ruined the axle bearings? How much play would be too much? Also, how do you get that seal all the way in the axle tube out? I don't have that special tool that is in the service manual.

Some undercarrige pictures in back of the album.. The tie rod sleeves usully have a dark steel look even if its stamped steel.


http://www.garaget.org/mypage/gallery.php?user=106330&album=43470

71redcuda
I enjoyed looking at your restoration pictures on your Mr. Mopar website.
Job done extremely well with much consideration for detail.
Thank you for posting.

71redcuda,

Thank you for posting that wealth of information in the pictures. Are the e body components the same as the b body components for colors and stuff?

Wow 71 redcuda That is a Gold style Concourse resto you did !!!
I don't have that kind of time or money so I did mine the poor mans way, with paint. Lol
Beautiful Cuda !!!