1969 340... Blue or Turquoise?

Is a 69 340 blue or turquoise? What are the options for paint matching OEM color?

IIRC turquoise but let someone that knows for sure chime in.

Turquoise

"Blue" 707 SPD 50k miles last registered in 1972 LM23P9B

Oil pan and timing cover from above engine...

also 70-71 340 were h-orange and 72-73 340 were blue

Late 71's were blue and 68's were red... but thats not the topic of this post.

Turquoise but good luck finding the exact color! This was Mopar brand paint

69 340's were turquoise, same a 383 2-bbl engines. There have been a few that were said to be blue or orange but they were also VERY late build such as the one you show. I still have seen NO color pictures from the day the late cars were built to change my mind. I am also assuming that the one you show was built at the LA plant, correct? I have plenty of pictures of survivor Hamtramck built 69 340s that were ALL turquoise.

I agree Rhino but also to remember is that there were no engines built at the LA plant, just cars.

That example of Jason's does look to be original, and blue. Could be an oddball I guess.

Jason, I'm assuming you are tearing it down? Check for dated bearings or other signs of it ever being rebuilt.

bulletin....

All bearings were 69's and STD size... its is numbers matching engine and transmission.

Intake and passenger side exhaust manifold

Found on a Google search

I have never seen a turquoise 273 or 318 engine!

What is the build date of that one?

SPD 217

WHY AREN'T my pics adding.......just shows title of pic??????

My 69 notch 318 is red too, all original

Jason, post a picture of the engine assembly stamping in the front of the block just under the head/deck

FWIW, Galen's book says blue.

July 2nd, 1969 LM23P9B just under 445000

Windsor Ontario plant, assembled Jul 02, 1969. Definitely a late build.

anyone know another built that late?

Well the weird part is that orange was phased in for 1970 (and at the same engine plant) so why switch from turquoise to blue at the end of production? Maybe they ran short on turquoise towards the end and used blue that was on hand (for 318's etc.) In the interum before the orange showed up later on?

What color were Marine 340's? Were Marine 340's built at the Windsor plant?

2896 is July 2, 1969 for the '70 model year.

Yea John, typo, date is for July 69, but it could be a late 69 install, plus there's an E which dictates 1969 model year.

And everyone ASSumes that the engine was never touched since the day it was put in the car at the Chrysler plant. Is there a clear paper trail and is everything that ever happened to the car, or the one in the other picture known since it was new? I know of cars that had to have their original engines rebuilt shortly after new due to a variety of issues. There are many scenarios of why it may be painted differently than the majority of known original owner vehicles that are definitely turquoise...

It is the original engine and not one shred of evidence that it was ever turquoise. I'm going to paint it blue.

Well your mind was made up before you posted, good for you! Never seen a factory document that says in 1969 the 340 was blue or orange or any other color than turquoise. I hope somewhere down the line all these other engine colors can be verified other than word of mouth...

FWIW Jim, my comments are merely observations based on the information given in this thread. I have not come to any conclusions on this engine, just entertaining the possibilities.

Scott, I was talking about the OP not you, we are pretty much always on the same page when it comes to engine paint. I have another TSB to show...

ok, fine with me

SPD 625

http://www.moparaction.com/Article/JUNE/JUNE.html

Yea, that car has been HEAVILY worked over to clean off dirt/rust/detailed, etc. but like your example, it does appear to have originally had a blue engine.

Giveaway to me is the neg bat cable is blue. Maybe just maybe all the pieces could have been hot tanked when or if rebuilt( most shops wouldn't go to the trouble then), no way would they paint the cable too, it was unbolted and stayed in the car.

There is always the "never say never" with any Chrysler product, but once again a very late built car. I have seen a 69 Swinger 340 with bucket seats, fender turn signals, and rocker moldings that was a July built car and those options were not available on Swinger 340's. Could a few examples have been painted blue because turquoise was being phased out? Probably, but the vast MAJORITY were painted turquoise and Chrysler documentation still TRUMPS a few examples found in the wild... Can anyone find any TSB's that show a late-year switch to blue? I certainly haven't.

The great debate, I'm for whatever came off that line, no matter what the mess up, instead of making it like "99%" of the others. If someone is born with six toes do we wack it off just because the rest of us have five? Or do you think these oddball cars will upstage the more "normal" cars value like a miss-stamped coin? People go to all the trouble to apply paint dab marks, runs, overspray from what came off the line, I see no difference with the paint on this engine.

I'm for preserving history, not complying to a "norm" to gain acceptance. I think it's interesting to seek and document exceptions and variables.

That's my car....that's 100% original paint on the engine.....the negative cables WERE installed on the engine when painted....as evidenced by the lack of paint on the valve cover where the cable layed accross. That is an Oregon car....for some reason every car I have ever bought that was from there are super clean and rust free.......you should see the bottom of this thing. Scott - yes lot's of cleaning and degreasing etc - but the car is a gem. Concerning the blue engine.....It is a late build if that has any bearing....June 25th. I remember the orange motored Dart that went through OE a few years back.....I still am unconvinced about that one.
Cheers

Jim B.

Agreed Jim, very nice car and an obvious survivor with some great details. As far as the battery cable specifically, yes, I have seen that on 69's, but it varied through the 340 production years. For example, every original (orange motor) 71 I've seen, the neg cable was added after paint. BTW, I'm also undecided, doubtful of the orange motor 70 simply because the full history of the car is unknown.

In summary, 340 engine details changed A LOT from 68-73. IMO there's still more to be discovered on them, survivors are few and far between but I still learn more with every one I see.

On the bat cable I meant it would not be painted again even if the engine was removed, rebuilt and repainted

My 69 340 swinger is about 9000 serial numbers later than MaxwellWedge, and the motor was for sure blue. Even though the engine had been pulled and modified, I bought the original valve covers, oil pan, intake, manifolds, etc... 15 years before hand...and all were blue, rather than the lighter turquise. Looking at the build sheet, is the 709 the build date. Order number 176545.

340 4spd short block I picked up from last year.

Who sells the most authentic blue paint? Badelson?

and I also need a 4611 AVS...

I don't know if Frank makes a standard blue but if he does it's probably right on the money. In your case you might consider going to the paint store with an original sample for a color match, get it mixed in single stage PPG Delstar DAR Acrylic Enamel.

*The only 69 carb I have is a 4611SA D9

I have a couple of 4611's but they were on the shelf when my garage burned. So a pattern starts to emerge, we have blue engine paint on 6/25 and 7/07, start searching for documents in that time period to see if there was really a TSB for the change...

Jim, I can sometimes save burned carbs as long as the main castings are not visibly melted. Unfortunately the car these were on burnt to the ground. these were roasted, had melted floats, shafts frozen solid, but I managed to save these carbs.

Those were a good save!

Frank doesn't have the blue unfortunately.....he does have the turquoise....so It's looking like SPD's may possibly be the determining factor on color.
My buddy picked up an early 69 Swinger 340 and according to Moparo.....who is doing the car for him.....he has found a lot of traces of turquoise on that engine.

That engine plant did not do Hemi's or BB's.....so there would be no need for them to have any orange paint around.....in 69 anyway.

I now know of another July SPD Dart with blue engine

If you can document or have significant/sufficeint evidence for an oddity then go with it, if no information exist to support your claim on the subject car then go with the documented norm.

I think there is sufficent evidence to say this car came out of the box blue.

Rocker mouldings and turn indicators were available on 340 69 Swingers. My own 69 was a dealer demonstrator, highly optioned car and had both of those options. Original paint car with Build sheet

What is the SPD? You would have to have A01 light package for the indicators, what does the broadcast sheet say for those parts?

How about red. Here is a picture of the ground wire off a 69 340 Formula S. No doubt the engine was red originally as it had never tinkered with until recently.

It looks to be all about SPD's, when was that car built?

Jim, The SPD is 7/28. Quite possibly the first 340 built for 69. The car has a very low VIN.

Thanks, I will check my TSB's to see what the date was that they were issued.

My thoughts on pre production cars are that almost anything goes. I have seen some very odd stuff on "pilot" cars. IMO they should be restored to retain as many of original details as can be found and enjoyed by all as an example of what was done when a new car was brought into the fray before regular production began. Duplicating or referencing these oddball details when restoring a regular production car would be a mistake.

*Restoring a rough pilot car can be a daunting task since there is nothing to reference in terms of their actual original details, each is truly a one of a kind.

I have seen a few pilot A-Body's and have seen lots of things that didn't make it into actual production. Plus they are built before everything is decided on, part of the process.

Then you're saying put them back like all the production cars??

Not at all! I'm saying to document and replace as much originality as possible as to how the car was actually built.

Ok, then I agree on that. I like the odd balls, gives them character.

How so? When the evidence is staring right at you.. Blue.

I have DOZENS of pictures of original 69 A-Body's taken by yours truly that include plenty of original owner cars and they ALL had turquoise engines. The anomalies have just recently (within the last 5 years) come out of the woodwork with different color engines. I personally had a two owner 69 Dart GT convertible that was a late build with a 273 engine that was blue, no doubt about it but that car was crushed 10 years ago. With the factory TSB's I have and have seen that show turquoise was the 69 340 engine color, I tend to believe those. The one I show above has a date code AFTER the August 1st introduction of the 69 model year, so other 340 engine colors could have happened before Chrysler made the change, and maybe there are some examples of orange painted 340's before the end of the model year.

Looking for information on what the correct bolts are for the water pump and timing cover for 69

Its blue and back in the car. The digital camera changes the color... its pretty close but not a perfect match.

Looks great Jason! Please shoot a bunch more pics and post when it's all done.

I still have never seen a TSB with the color BLUE for a Dodge 340 and TURQUOISE for a Plymouth 340, but Galen says it in his White books so it must be so... I have seen a lot of restored Darts with BLUE painted engines lately, so in a few years it will be gospel. I really would like to see a TSB from LA built Darts.

Thanks Scott.

This car is a LM23P9B

Looks great!

Turquoise would be the correct choice.

Obviously you have not read this thread thoroughly.

Well, obviously, reading comprehension is not your strong point.

Whatever color the engine was painted when the car rolled off the assembly line is the correct choice period. End of discussion. Where is the beating the dead horse icon when you need it.

Good, now we have someone that was there when they were built, I got some more questions for you...

Funny I was thinking the same, I wanted to go back in your time machine and get some parts at the dealer for my 69 Barracuda.
So every engine has to be turquoise because some paper says so, like everybody followed that to the letter. Since we are talking about assembly line "workers" who couldn't or wouldn't make a mistake like that. Pop worked for Fisher-Body and said they had a big lot outside for all the screw ups.

Yep, I have a few freinds who worked at the Belvidere Assembly Plant back in the day making C-Body's. One out of every four went back to the repair shop. They drank lots of beer and smoked weed at lunch and pu their own codes on fender tags. Most assembly plants had a couple barrels of paint, rarely did they run out to the hardware store to get some that was close when they ran out... I tend to believe the pieces of paper called TSB's, not some anecdotes from a few people who did not buy the cars new, and even if they did they can be wrong after all these years. (see a certain 69 Dart Swinger that was restored with an orange engine)...

That's the point, it's not a question of what you or I believe, it's who ever owns the car, his choice with the clues he has about said engine. We can b&m all day but it won't change a thing.

but the thing is .....

1969 340s were assembled & painted at the WINDSOR engine assembly plant - they had NO need for orange paint (the ORANGE engines * 383HP & 440HP * were built at Trenton & * HEMI * at Marysville)

Chrysler Blue engine paint was NEW for 1970 on low performance 318/383-2bbl/non-HP c-body 440s

there is NO good reason for a Chrysler Blue '69 340 to exist that one would want to copy in a restoration (mistake/repair/other/??)

It will go down as one of the great mysterys of our lifetime. Civilizations will rise and fall over this journey into the unknown. Any who paint their engine blue will be ridiculed and banished to the X brands for life.

My 69 GTS 340, and yes it is blue:

BTW, its EW340P26690176

Build date 17th November 1968.

Gorsky, is that factory original paint? Are those headers and a spool type engine mounts? What's the story on the car?

The engine is now in a Charger.

Someone hand painted the top of the engine red, but the bottom is all still original blue. I've scraped paint off down to bare metal, it's blue.

Can you post a pic of the assembly stamping on the face of the block (drivers side)

Sure.

Sunday, Nov 17th, 1968

Yeah I know.

I posted that info further up the page

Hmmmm, odd date to be painted anything but turqoise

Who knew the factory had guys punching out engines on Sundays?

The blue may be a Sunday thing...it's a mystery, to be sure.

Maybe they forgot to "stir" the paint before they used it..8*)

Does this Swinger look to have a blue engine? Of course I don't know if it is original.

http://www.siriuscad.com/dart/dart/Picture_Gallery.html#12

Can't say I have seen one without rear arm rests!

Looks like the throttle spring is painted too, where they? Mine is not, could be a paint over years ago. I have the cheapo 70 Duster with no rear armrest if that means anything.

Seen lots of Dusters without rear arm rests, not too many 67-69 Darts.

That engine paint isn't virgin, there is blue paint on the PCV hose, plug wires, etc. I'd bet they repainted it years ago and that shade of blue was the only one available in rattle cans.

My 69 Swinger with low grade interior.

Is anyone documenting the SPD's to narrow down when engines went from turquoise to blue? This gold GTS is blue, this swinger 340 is turquoise (though it appears the motor may have been apart).

I have a 69 340 that I haven't verified what it came out of (dart/Cuda) and its obviously a turquoise motor. How ever, the 340 swinger I currently have is a late build and I want to paint the original color. Unfortunately the previous owner blasted everything and no original color was left, then he painted it orange...then black. SPD is 709.




http://www.ebay.com/itm/Dodge-Dart-/162162073503?forcerrptr=true&hash=item25c19cdf9f:g:wmUAAOSwU-pXp9Ao&item=162162073503



http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/thre...atching.355933/

Mine's turquoise with pink spots. SPD 11/8/68. This is driver side behind the heat shield.

The paint is original factory. Maybe the exhaust manifold cooked the paint to pink in the center, which would be medium, steak-wise.

Almost ready to start...

Any other late build A bodies with blue 340 engines out there?

Kent,

Many head and block castings (all engines) had splotches of paint on them prior to the engine paint being added, probably denoting some type of machining process or QC inspection process. This is an original paint engine, that pink paint under the orange is the same type as your engine has.

Cool.

BTW, this is how I cleaned up the heads in my kitchen: After scraping off the thick crud with ice cream sticks, I applied a few coats of cooking oil with a tooth brush and wiped off. The cooking oil works pretty good.

Here are a few pics of my 340 from my 1969 Dart. This is a original 10,000 mile engine that was untouched until I took it apart last year. I also have the pink paint on the heads between the exhaust ports.

Passenger side pic. You can really see the engine paint shadowing that the exhaust manifold caused.

Great pics. So the dip stick handle has never been repainted? How about the water pump bolts, any signs of blue paint on the ones that hold the brackets on?

Dip stick handle is original. The original motor was pulled out in 1974 and a red painted 1968 340 slightly built engine was installed for drag racing. Some of the bolts and brackets from the 69 motor were installed on the 68 motor.
Here are a few more pics. The motor is Tourquoise. It looks like he swapped the bypass hose from the 69 motor to the 68 motor as you can see the engine paint still on the hose clamps. Boy, now I wish that I had taken more photos.

Those pics help, dip stick is as expected as is the blue paint on the bolt heads which is what I had expected to see.

Great pictures. What is the VIN# and SPD?

My dad bought a 69 barracuda new. If he remembers right he said his 340 was orange. Is his memory right ?

Not likely, maybe he was recalling the bright red air cleaner "340 Four Barrel" call out.

Running and ready for first test drive... BUT for some reason I have a front brake caliper that will not release

couple more

what exhaust did you choose? Car looks great BTW.

TTI 2.5"... car sounds amazing

An early build 1969 GTS convertible with original red 340.

And your'e SPD is? Should be before September 9th or shortly thereafter...