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Any advice on Panther Pink paint?

Posted By: KISSAlien

Any advice on Panther Pink paint? - 11/25/08 05:18 PM

My Challenger needs to be redone. Any advice on paint brand to use and what process to follow?

I'd love an original single stage enamel but I realize that may not be practical. I try to only drive the car in nice weather but I do drive it as opposed to trailering it. It doesn't get washed unless I get caught in the rain. I do use a spray shine on it and a California duster.

Thanks for your opinions and advice.
Posted By: Neil

Re: Any advice on Panther Pink paint? - 11/25/08 05:52 PM

PPG DCC single stage urethane???? PPG Delstar is acrylic enamel. It's ok, but I bet the urethane paints last longer and will be more durable.

I had the engine compartment and trunk done with DCC in FJ5. I bought base clear for the outside, but probably would have been fine just using the single stage. It's a non-metallic color, just like your pink, so you can sand and buff it. I would not do single stage paint on a metallic color.
Posted By: Pacnorthcuda

Re: Any advice on Panther Pink paint? - 11/25/08 06:27 PM

I would stay with a single stage myself. It will actually make for a more correct look, and its plenty durable--wax it once in awhile. I would also compare a few actual samples, Panther Pink is a color that if slightly white washed looks horrible (and I have seen several cars that end up this way) but if its intense enough (blues and black tint toners) is really cool. Different paints WILL have slighly different appearances.

Back in 1994 I actually had Sherwin Williams Automotive custom blend my own version (slightly more black) to acheive the look I wanted. Its a pain, and I wouldn't recommend it for a 'correct' FM3 car, but it makes for a GREAT look.
Posted By: 340SIX

Re: Any advice on Panther Pink paint? - 11/25/08 06:43 PM

I liked the R-M Diamont base and clear we used clear flowed out nice on the areas that could not be sanded and buffed{like underside and engine bay}
Posted By: BEEQUIK

Re: Any advice on Panther Pink paint? - 11/25/08 09:45 PM

If the plan is to wetsand and buff the final finish there's no use in using single stage, base clear is much more user friendly and the end result is more fade resistant.My point is if you water sand and buff the end result will look the same. I would recommend PPG or R-M Diamont. I used diamont on the Bee and it was very nice to work with.

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Posted By: DAYCLONA

Re: Any advice on Panther Pink paint? - 11/25/08 10:22 PM

Ken......while I'm a big user of dupont products, and like the high glamour finish of the Dupont BC/CC Chroma Priemier line,.......If your searching for a single stage finish, to look "factory",.....I'd recommend you get the "pink", in Duponts IMRON line,....a real tuff single stage finish, not for "beginners",....IMRON is very tuff to wetsand and buff, if you have a booboo!, it can be done, but best to avoid if possible,.....Moulin Rouge/ Panther Pink mix formula is available in IMRON

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Posted By: Gavin

Re: Any advice on Panther Pink paint? - 11/28/08 10:41 AM

Agree with much of what was said above. I used PPG DC single stage.

You WILL find that supposedly the SAME PP color is different from different sources. Some shades look too blue, some too white. If you have ever seen two PP cars near each other at a show I'll bet many times they looked different.

My number 1 priority was getting the correct color (because that is what I liked, not because my car is original. But also why have it PP if it is actually going to be a different color?).

I had samples from different brands and none of them looked "right" - a very subjective measurable of course. However I did see a car at a show in Calif once which did look spot-on and I talked to the owner. He had had an original untouched sample (i.e. unfaded part of his original car) and had found that PPG was a dead match
That was good enough for me....so I went ahead and used it.
The PPG/Ditzler code is 2260

BTW, it seems a rather strange color (no, not because it is pink!). It really looks a different color in different lighting, and my painter also told be it was a bit like a metallic when it came to color matching (i.e. he thought it was very difficult to blend-in a part panel)
Posted By: HPMike

Re: Any advice on Panther Pink paint? - 11/28/08 12:27 PM

I am by no means a paint expert.. But this A12 Bee was done in single stage Glasurit. The finish is absolutely perfect, and this paint is legendary for it's toughness.

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Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Any advice on Panther Pink paint? - 11/28/08 03:46 PM

Ken: Your car is painted in Sherwin Williams. At that time it was the only paint that was close to being correct. However it was painted more than 20 years ago. Getting the correct colour will be the hardest challenge especially with clear coat and FM3 doesn't look nice unless it is the exact correct hue.
The paint was a problem on that car, the painter used SW colour then he clearcoated it, I'm not sure what he clearcoated it with. I let the car sit for a month and then I couldn't get ahold of the painter to wetsand and buff it (later turned out he was in jail). I checked with a bunch of shops and finally decided to wetsand and buff it myself. As soon as I touched sandpaper to the clear I got colour so something went wrong as the colour had mixed in with the clear. At that time all of the Pro buffing products would not bring the gloss back, what did bring the gloss back a bit was old fashioned Turtle wax polishing compound. I finally got ahold of the painter and arranged to have the car repainted but he died in a plane crash before repainting it. Anyway just a bit of sordid history on your car.
I believe it was recleared after I sold the car and the rocker moldings removed at the same time.

Sheldon
Posted By: DAYCLONA

Re: Any advice on Panther Pink paint? - 11/28/08 07:20 PM

Quote:

I am by no means a paint expert.. But this A12 Bee was done in single stage Glasurit. The finish is absolutely perfect, and this paint is legendary for it's toughness.







Super nice Bee! there Mike .....and yes Glasurit single stage is very popular with restorers looking for single stage paints,.......however a lot of formulas to mix "properly" have been "lost", or altered, and the original colors are no longer really represented, plus too many "kids" mixing paint nowadays,.....they can do it, but they know not, what they are doing,......when I did a FM3 car, Panther Pink/ Moulin Rouge was "tuff" to get right,.....I spent many a days in different paint shops, testing mixes, and sprayouts,......Dupont BC/CC chroma primere and Duponts Imron were the only formulas that had the right amount of "color/ light" shift present in them.....

When I paint a car, I like it to look original in color, but yet have some "effect" to the paint, otherwise it looks rather "dull".......

F6 was another one of those "tuff" colors to get "right",.....

Another side to paint/color match as well, is the prep, baseshade on the body,...plus "technique" and coverage in painting can alter the finish, or effect

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Posted By: 340SIX

Re: Any advice on Panther Pink paint? - 11/28/08 07:27 PM

I compaired the R-M base clear in limco and diamount as well as some PPG laqure and they were close to being the same. in fact I used some of the laqure in a spt or 2 in the truck area that was misssed when we shot the R-M base clear and it was realy realy close but was also cleared
Posted By: DAYCLONA

Re: Any advice on Panther Pink paint? - 11/28/08 07:40 PM

Quote:

Ken: Your car is painted in Sherwin Williams. At that time it was the only paint that was close to being correct. However it was painted more than 20 years ago. Getting the correct colour will be the hardest challenge especially with clear coat and FM3 doesn't look nice unless it is the exact correct hue.

Sheldon







.....Sherwin Williams is indeed a good match color/shade wise,....but didn't offer an "effect" to it, being able to "shift" slightly in different light or reflective influence,.......on the other hand, Dupount BC/CC chroma primere had that "effect"......on one of my customers FM3 cars, it was one of the reasons I went with that instead,.....while the SW was indeed a good match, it had a rather "dead" look to it ........plus IMHO SW is a rather "sub-par" automotive paint,......I know! I'll hear about that one!
Posted By: SamB

Re: Any advice on Panther Pink paint? - 11/28/08 08:45 PM

I prefer a base coat/clear coat system.I painted my 71 Charger R/T back in 1991.I used Glasurit single stage then wet sanded and cleared over the single stage then wet sanded again then buffed it out.The paint job is almost 20 years old and still looks like it was painted yesterday.Having a clear coat makes it much easier to take care of and also if you needed to do a repair it is much easier to spot and blend>Most restoration shops are also moving towards base/clear coats.Not by choice but because of VOC regulations.Shops must comply with changes or get fined.I now spray with ICI Autocolor a line that PPG now owns which is used on most European cars.Most paint shops will work with you on a color match but they will probably charge for that extra service.
Sam

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Posted By: 340SIX

Re: Any advice on Panther Pink paint? - 11/28/08 09:41 PM

I wonder how close the PPG paint chips are in the books?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Any advice on Panther Pink paint? - 11/28/08 11:40 PM

I agree with S-W not exactly being top notch paint. BTW that FM3 looked purple under flouescant lights, that was the coolest stock colour ever.

Sheldon
Posted By: A990

Re: Any advice on Panther Pink paint? - 11/29/08 12:44 AM

The factory used Electrostatic guns, and I suspect that caused a lot of issues regarding colors and the way they shift etc.
A sure sign that somethings different is how the paint lays on the firewall where it joins the trans tunnel. A spray gun tends to have a larger overspray pattern there.

I heard once that reversing the polarity on a metallic will change the lay of the flakes for an imperceptible changes that makes color matching and behavior hard to duplicate. Does anyone have any insight or experience?
Posted By: stwheels

Re: Any advice on Panther Pink paint? - 11/29/08 01:49 AM

Ken why don't you call Ken Katarynchuk and ask him what paint etc he used on his FM3 R/T SE. The car turned out absolutely incredible. He won the Mr. Norms award at the Belvedere plant show this summer. It's just too bad it wasn't completed in time for the All Chrysler Nationals at Carlisle when all the Pink cars got together.

It would be great to see both of your cars together especially since they both sold new out of the same dealership in Calgary.

Ken and I were parked next to each other at a local show this summer and it was hilarious listening to all the "experts" divulge their knowledge about Pink cars

One thing for sure, it attracted every babe at the show.

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Posted By: 1_WILD_RT

Re: Any advice on Panther Pink paint? - 11/29/08 02:33 AM

This car was also painted with Sherwin Williams back around 93 still looks like new....& it definately changes in different light....

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Posted By: RT_6_PakShaker

Re: Any advice on Panther Pink paint? - 11/29/08 03:26 AM

I used dupont BC/CC, notice the change in color depending on the light.

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Posted By: RT_6_PakShaker

Re: Any advice on Panther Pink paint? - 11/29/08 03:28 AM

Later in the day with overcast

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Posted By: Geno

Re: Any advice on Panther Pink paint? - 11/29/08 03:31 AM

This is a rough explanation and purely my opinions based on my experience. It is also a canned answer that is similar to other posts I have done. This question comes up a lot! Hope it helps.

Always try to stay within a system. I prefer DuPont, Standox or Spies Hecker but I am going to make this generic. Read the tech sheets on the products you are looking to use. They will tell you what works with what and how to mix and spray the products. Read ALL of the tech sheet! Always do a spray out to check color. And take a trial run before painting the real deal. When all else fails ask the distributor, call a tech line for the paint company or try to contact the local rep.

Etch or wash primers – Go direct to bare metal and assist in adhesion but are mostly there to serve as a conversion coating to prevent a rock chip from getting out of control. Do not put over filler. Do not put under filler.

Epoxies – Can go direct to metal and work well by themselves. There is debate as to weather it is best to put over an etch or not, that’s personal preference and experience. I have done both ways with success. Can go over body filler and can go under body filler once the epoxy is properly prepped. Epoxies can also be used as a sealer. That said you can put urethane primers over them or under them and color can also be put directly on them as well. Watch your dry times epoxies are slow. Epoxies also have little filling capability but with a couple of coats they can prevent corrosion quite well.

Urethane Primers – Must have a etch or epoxy under them except for small (quarter or style line) cut troughs. Some companies recommend a sealer some don’t so follow manufacturer recommendations.
They can go directly over body filler (180 is the coarsest grit scratch I am aware of) but body filler should not be put over them (some glazing putties are okay). They will not prevent moisture from saturating through to metal so don’t put a car outside and allow it to soak. Wet sanding is okay. Also they are not body filler!!! 3 coats let it dry and sand it and reprime if necessary and watch flash times. A good filler primer builds 4-6 mils a crisp dollar bill is 2 mils thick and new OEM paint jobs are an average of 4-6 total. That’s all the more primer will fill.

*DO NOT USE LAQUER PRIMERS!!!

Sealers – Some companies do not require. They will fill at most a 320 grit scratch. They are meant to go over primers and cover very very small cut throughs (to metal or filler) and help with the porosity of primers for better color hold out. It also makes for a uniform color to go over resulting in faster hiding and better color uniformity. Some companies use colored sealers and some use various shades of grey and both work.

From here on all you have to do is pick a color and decide if you want to spray basecoat clear coat or single stage!

Single Stage - There are many urethane single stage and enamel paints available and they will give a similar appearance to OEM just shinier! I would only single stage solid colors not metallic’s. If your spraying a urethane and really want to have some fun cocktail the single stage color and some clear on the last coat looks awesome!

Basecoat/Clearcoat – This is how most new cars are painted. Must go over primer, epoxy or sealer.
Basecoat - Since you only have to worry about making the base uniform it is easier to control the color especially in metallics.
Clearcoat - Then it is time for clear and there are loads of different clears out there. Clears can be very environment and skill level dependant so ask questions. Higher solids clears will look deeper and have better DOI (distinctiveness of image) but may be more challenging to spray.

Color - Depending on plant,enviroment and spray equipment colors varied. Even today there is a great deal of variation on color. Look at all the variants for GM's 382E Pewter! When spraying; the color you go over, number of coats, type of gun, fluid nozzle on gun, distance, air pressure, reduction ratio, reducer selection, type of paint (laquer, enamel, urethane, basecoat clearcoat or single stage)and paint manufacturer can all vary a color. If thats not enough golds and pewters can be the most difficult. A spectraphotometer (color camera) can help but it can still get weird. So to get started get some paint and do a spray out card. ALWAYS START WITH A SPRAYOUT. and verify it to the car near the area you will be painting. If it doesn"t match take in a polished part of the car at least 3"x3" (piece must be flat) and have a reading done then do another spray out. Some distributors even offer to tint colors for a fee. If you want what was "correct" for that car you should match it to an unmolested area and check around the car in case of repaint. Also make sure if the paint has sat that it gets shaken thoroughly as pigments settle.


As for what’s best that’s like asking what’s your favorite color. However that does not mean just go out and wing it. There are pros and cons to whatever you choose. Also some processes are better suited for certain projects or portions of the car. You could use a few different products and processes for one car. Products come and go and change so processes and recommendations can change at the drop of a hat. There is a tool for every job and paint can be the same. It takes years for people to get good at painting so keep that in mind as well.

Also make sure to wear your Personal Protective Equipment!

For FM3 I like single stage w/clear cocktail on last coat.

Good luck.
Geno
Posted By: stwheels

Re: Any advice on Panther Pink paint? - 11/29/08 03:43 AM

Bravo Geno ! That is the best explanation I've read in a long time. People wonder why painting a vehicle costs so much. Above and beyond the cost of the materials are the years of experience, research and studying that are required to keep up with all the new product lines. The final finish, durability and color match are only as good as the painter who took the time to really know his paint and the process of how to apply it properly.
Posted By: magnumcharger

Re: Any advice on Panther Pink paint? - 12/01/08 11:22 PM

Anudder pic...

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Posted By: magnumcharger

Re: Any advice on Panther Pink paint? - 12/01/08 11:48 PM

And the paint...

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Posted By: magnumcharger

Re: Any advice on Panther Pink paint? - 12/01/08 11:49 PM

more

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Posted By: sixpaktoogo

Re: Any advice on Panther Pink paint? - 12/03/08 05:35 AM

A friend of mine has just given me 5 quarts of "factory pack" R-M Supermax Enamel that he has had for over 30 years. He did a spray-out of it today, and to me it looks great. Does anyone have an original FM3 colored, small body part (mirror) that I can compare it to?
Posted By: RestoRick

Re: Any advice on Panther Pink paint? - 12/03/08 12:48 PM

I have a nice sample from an unexposed area...

Rick
Posted By: KISSAlien

Re: Any advice on Panther Pink paint? - 12/03/08 10:47 PM

Wow, thanks everyone for all your help! I still haven't even hooked up with the guy I want to do the work. He's been very busy.

Sheldon:

I remember you telling me about the S-W paint on the car. Overall the car still looks good even with the paint job done in the '80s. However there is some bubbling around the rear wheels as well as a few other issues that need to be addressed that make it necessary to repaint the car. The "museum" I bought the car from removed the rocker moldings and repainted the bottom of the car. So basically the whole bottom is more purple than the top. You wouldn't really notice it because the pink stripes break it up, but once you see it, it's all you see. Or at least it's all I see. And I agree with you and others. Panther Pink is definitely a color shifting paint. It looks reddish in the morning and purplish at night. It never looks pink, more like an electric raspberry color to me. Also, I've had a gas cap painted like 6 times to try to get a color match and nobody has got it to match yet.

Mike:

You know I value your opinions, so thanks for chiming in. I know the quality of the work you do and know it comes from your years of knowledge and your attention to detail.

Doug:

I was very disappointed that Ken didn't make it to Carlisle. I wanted to get our cars together again, well I guess they were never probably together since mine sold months before his was even built, but you know what I mean. Didn't Kori do his car?


All:

Hemmings wanted to do a photo shoot of my car last year but I turned them down as I was not happy with the way my car looked. Hopefully with all the help you guys have given I can get her to where I want it and take them up on their offer. Maybe they'll do another pink stripe car first and I'll lose out, but if it does make it in the magazine I'll let everyone know. Of course there's always a chance for my twice white car, but the way things have gone the last few months I'll never be able to afford that restoration.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Any advice on Panther Pink paint? - 12/03/08 10:54 PM

Ken: The two cars were together once! Rudy was driving on the freeway between Edmonton and Calgary, looked in his mirror and there was the twin! Even in 1970 that would have made you look twice.

Sheldon
Posted By: magnumcharger

Re: Any advice on Panther Pink paint? - 12/04/08 02:44 AM

Ken K's car had body and paint restored at Joey's place in Edmonton, then assembled and detailed by Kori A in Red Deer.
It didn't make it Carlisle due to an unfortunate scheduling problem.
Posted By: pinkduster

Re: Any advice on Panther Pink paint? - 12/04/08 03:20 AM

Sorry, not much advice to offer. Maybe the only thing I can tell you is look out, it ain't gonna be cheap.



Here is a picture of my Duster. Not sure what materials my buddy is using, but I do know it is BC CC. He lurks on here sometimes... Maybe he'll chime in with the paint details.
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