Moparts

E Body Roof To Quarter Seam Problem

Posted By: azblackhemi

E Body Roof To Quarter Seam Problem - 11/04/12 04:52 AM

I'm doing the paint and bodywork on a customers 71 'cuda and am having a problem with the filler in the "C" pillar swelling. Ill start by saying I've been doing bodywork for a living for 40 years and this is the fourth rotisserie Mopar restoration I've done this year so I do know what I'm doing. Here's what has transpired so far. It's a 71 'cuda that still has both original quarters on it. The car was media blasted with walnut shells removing all the factory filler. I cleaned it ground it and wire brushed it clean. I filled the seam with "All Metal" which I use all the time for this and have never had a problem. It probably cured for 3-4 weeks while I was working on the rest of the car before painting it. The day after painting it I put it out in the sun to cure before sand & buff. I'm in Phoenix so it heated the cars surface to about 140 degrees. The heat made the filler swell on both sides enough to see a perfect outline of the seam. Take it out of the sun and it goes back down to normal. I called my paint rep and he got the rep from USC (The company that makes All Metal) and he came out and looked. Since the filler was softening in the heat the only thing he came up with was it was slightly under catylized. I ground it all back to bare metal and redid it using alot more hardner. Well it did the same thing again. The rep came back out and called the companies chemist and nobody had a solution. They are working on it but in the meantime since he knew I had to get the car done he suggested I use a differnt product. This time I used 3M's Mar Glass which is a fiberglass reinforced filler. Back down to bare metal again, redid it primed it and used my heat lamp on it to heat it up to 140 degrees and it did the exact same thing. Now on the fourth try I welded the bottom of the seam below the spot welds solid. I thought maybe something was leeching out of the seam and this would stop it. So after welding it I filled it with the Mar Glass again and primed it. Heated it up to 140 and it didn't swell. Raised it to 175 and it still looked good so I figured I got it fixed. Painted it again thursday looked great. Put it out in the sun today and even though it only got up to 110 degrees it swelled up just like before. Everyone who is involved including myself is totally baffled by this. I am out of ideas. Monday I will try to get the 3M reps involved but right now I'm hoping maybe someone here has experianced the same problem and has a solution. I apoligize for the length of thie post but I really ned to find an answer soon.
Posted By: elitecustombody

Re: E Body Roof To Quarter Seam Problem - 11/04/12 05:13 AM

I don't play that game. I'd weld the seam solid and weld a full strip to close that dip or completely cut that lap joint out and replace it with a strip butt welded,use TIG welder

If you are set on keeping that lap joint original ,I can only suggest Marine-tex. I never used it on C-pillars, but have used it grafting metal to metal, fiberglass to metal,plastic to metal with amazing results,it beats the two-part metal bonding adhesive.

I'm assuming you're not applying filler over metal that was wirebrushed.
Posted By: azblackhemi

Re: E Body Roof To Quarter Seam Problem - 11/04/12 05:44 AM

Quote:

I don't play that game. I'd weld the seam solid and weld a full strip to close that dip or completely cut that lap joint out and replace it with a strip butt welded,use TIG welder

If you are set on keeping that lap joint original ,I can only suggest Marine-tex. I never used it on C-pillars, but have used it grafting metal to metal, fiberglass to metal,plastic to metal with amazing results,it beats the two-part metal bonding adhesive.

I'm assuming you're not applying filler over metal that was wirebrushed.



I can see how welding the seam solid would be a good idea but that doesn't explain why after doing the same procedure the same way 30-40 times over the years this time it doesn't work. What's the issue with using filler over wire brushing? Sometimes it's the only way to clean the metal and again I don't think I've had any filler related problems before this one. I do really appreciate the input.
Posted By: elitecustombody

Re: E Body Roof To Quarter Seam Problem - 11/04/12 06:01 AM

The reason you don't apply filler over wirebrushed metal is because brushing makes the surface slick and now you're relying only on chemical adhesion. In critical area like that you want as much of mechanical adhesion as you can get. Grind it or blast it,not wirebrush it.

You also may have never noticed on previous jobs,but most likely it was showing just not as bad.Exposed lap joints must be leaded, or cut out and welded or you will be fixing it again .If you want the best short strand fiberglass filler, get Evercoat Everglass.
Posted By: 1970mopar

Re: E Body Roof To Quarter Seam Problem - 11/04/12 06:40 AM

Try using an epoxy panel bonding adhesive instead of a polyester filler.
Posted By: DAYCLONA

Re: E Body Roof To Quarter Seam Problem - 11/04/12 07:58 AM

Quote:

Exposed lap joints must be leaded, or cut out and welded or you will be fixing it again





The roof seam should be addressed as stated above, esp on E bodies, "telegraphing" of the joint and filler used is quite common on E bodies even leaded joints will crack,...best repair is to weld a steel full strip in the lap joint, and rely on metal finishing techniques rather than hiding it under plastic,...even factory finished e bodies suffered from this "curse"...make sure the roof to quarter seam is fully welded, not just slopply stitch welded like the factory did it...I've owned and restored E bodies for over 30 years so I've dealt with the issue many times

...If it's not an OEM resto, you might want to consider a set of subframe connectors be welded/bolted in to prevent chassis flex before you repair that roof for the umpteenth time..

Mike

Attached picture 7447933-5852777-telegraph.JPG
Posted By: RestoRick

Re: E Body Roof To Quarter Seam Problem - 11/04/12 09:32 AM

See second paragraph...
Posted By: roadrunninMark

Re: E Body Roof To Quarter Seam Problem - 11/04/12 02:37 PM

Is it a difficult process to "lead" for a beginner?
Posted By: HemiChallenger

Re: E Body Roof To Quarter Seam Problem - 11/04/12 02:38 PM

lead...
Posted By: 6PakBee

Re: E Body Roof To Quarter Seam Problem - 11/04/12 02:40 PM

I apologize if someone thinks this is a highjack but is this confined to E-bodies only or do all the body lines (A, B, C, etc.) suffer from this? Are the full welded panel or leading solutions necessary for the other body lines?
Posted By: azblackhemi

Re: E Body Roof To Quarter Seam Problem - 11/04/12 03:24 PM

Thanks for all the good advice guys. I will weld the seam up solid and lead it.
Posted By: domingo

Re: E Body Roof To Quarter Seam Problem - 11/04/12 03:39 PM

www.realsteel.com

they sell the stuff you need to lead that seem and also videos on how to do it.

D
Posted By: domingo

Re: E Body Roof To Quarter Seam Problem - 11/04/12 03:42 PM

http://www.realsteel.com/store/32-sar-accessories
Posted By: DAYCLONA

Re: E Body Roof To Quarter Seam Problem - 11/04/12 07:01 PM

Quote:

I apologize if someone thinks this is a highjack but is this confined to E-bodies only or do all the body lines (A, B, C, etc.) suffer from this? Are the full welded panel or leading solutions necessary for the other body lines?






The E body is the most pronounce sufferer from "telegraphing" at the seam, although any unibody can experience this because of the stress prone area, esp if a poor repair is made to the area...body flex is the problem, the OP, I assume had/has the car on a rotisserie, and being supported in areas other than the suspension is causing the body to flex even more so...I recommend frame connectors on any unibody, as well as torque boxes/braces/etc
Posted By: RestoRick

Re: E Body Roof To Quarter Seam Problem - 11/04/12 07:03 PM

Quote:

I apologize if someone thinks this is a highjack but is this confined to E-bodies only or do all the body lines (A, B, C, etc.) suffer from this? Are the full welded panel or leading solutions necessary for the other body lines?




They all can do it.. how noticeable it is varies by the color, amount of heat, particular model, depth of filler, etc.
Posted By: domingo

Re: E Body Roof To Quarter Seam Problem - 11/04/12 07:05 PM

and if still does it...thats how they are really....
Posted By: DAYCLONA

Re: E Body Roof To Quarter Seam Problem - 11/04/12 07:11 PM

Quote:

Is it a difficult process to "lead" for a beginner?







Resto Ricks post on leading is very helpful, I'd recommend you practice on some scrap panels to learn just how much heat it takes to create a bond, plus make the lead spread, rather than run....FYI the Eastwood "Lead Free" leading kit is probably you best bet for a beginner, it's higher in tin content, so the "lead" is more resilient to running on you..
Posted By: roadrunninMark

Re: E Body Roof To Quarter Seam Problem - 11/04/12 09:43 PM

I have the headliner and trim all in there already. Can I use this without melting the interior parts?

Posted By: RestoRick

Re: E Body Roof To Quarter Seam Problem - 11/04/12 10:04 PM

If you're using the tinning butter correctly, the regular lead works fine. The lead-free is brutally expensive.. yikes.

How much depends how well the seams line up. You can visualize laying the sticks to get an idea.
The 1/4 lb. sticks are pretty small. I typically use about 4 or 5 per side.

I'd drop the sail panel area of the headliner to be safe.
Posted By: wally426ci

Re: E Body Roof To Quarter Seam Problem - 11/07/12 01:04 PM

Bookmarking this!
© 2024 Moparts Forums