Moparts
For all you 70 Super Bee guys - NEVER say never!
Posted By: TwoLane
For all you 70 Super Bee guys - NEVER say never! - 03/28/12 06:02 AM
I recall a post awhile ago where someone was asking about the placement of 383 magnum fender emblems ( I believe this or the 383 emblems on the N96 hood scoops) Anyway- I chimed in that I used to own a 70 383 N96 post coupe from 1981 until 1989 in Central/Eastern Pennsylvania. The controversy was that all N96 equipped cars never had the engine call outs (emblems) mounted on the sides of the fenders where the non-N96 cars would be .
I owned an August of 1969 production date Bee that had BOTH the 383 scoop emblems and the 383 MAGNUM emblems on the fenders. Until I saw the post, I naturally thought that the cars were normally built that way.
So, I was digging though alot of old pictures and finally found some pics of my old car. The unfortunate part is that I can only find the pics where I'm pulling the original engine (yes with a tree limb and come-along at age 15) when I first bought the car-that pic shows the fender emblem BUT with no hood on it. Another pic shows it when I just got it running 2 years later. No shot of the fender but it does show the hood on the car. I bought the car from the 2nd owner when the car was completely original sans exhaust pipes,tires and battery.
I'm in the midst of scanning the pics and hopefully show you some cool rare Bee info.
Posted By: TwoLane
Re: For all you 70 Super Bee guys - NEVER say never! - 03/28/12 06:48 AM
Another pic
Posted By: TwoLane
Re: For all you 70 Super Bee guys - NEVER say never! - 03/28/12 06:49 AM
Last pic for right now
Posted By: A12
Re: For all you 70 Super Bee guys - NEVER say never! - 03/28/12 06:55 AM
not trying to cast any or too much doubt but if your car had two previous owners before you then the "what if", will always still remain. The "what if" one of the owners changed the hood or added the emblems?
Reason I say that is that in '69 my three month old or should I say new at the time '69 road runner had the front left fender damaged by a valet parking attendant so badly that it had to be replaced. Yes it was an OEM fender but it was not the original fender that it left the factory with....just saying that it only took three months for a major original part to be replaced and here we have a car that was at the least a decade old or older. I sometimes laugh when I read the arguments that "well I'm the second, third, fourth owner and I was told the car was still all original....it only took me 90-days of ownership to have someone wreck my road runner and for it to not have all of the original parts. Remember the term "Day-two car" that's how long it took to change things, even now.
I love photos
My '69 road runner back in 1969...don't look at the left front fender it's a rebody or at least not original
Posted By: TwoLane
Re: For all you 70 Super Bee guys - NEVER say never! - 03/28/12 07:09 AM
A12- first off- very cool Runner! I fully expect all the what if's.. The car sat from 76 until 81 when I bought it. I bought it from a guy that used it for a family car of all things . Now, does that state it's originality- no- Do I firmly believe that this car is what it is? Absolutely.
I know this is going to ruffle alot of feathers. Heck, even if I bought the car new and still had it. People would still say that I would have put the hood on or installed the emblems. One thing is that the car is an original N96 scoop car. It still had the original Holley carb, and oval base/round open element air cleaner assy. Hey anything is possible but, I pulled the front end off (when I wrecked the right fender in 85) and no paint / body work was done to the car before that.
How old is your car in the pic?
Posted By: 6bblgt
Re: For all you 70 Super Bee guys - NEVER say never! - 03/28/12 07:10 AM
I spy 15" wheels,
what was the original color? Got an engine compartment pic?
Posted By: TwoLane
Re: For all you 70 Super Bee guys - NEVER say never! - 03/28/12 07:20 AM
A12- sorry- I did see that the pic was from 69!
Dan- yes- good eyes! 15" rallyes with the chrome rings(not brushed), B5 blue outside- no vinyl top- LIGHT BLUE Bumblebee stripe, I think B5 interior- It was a medium blue not bright blue interior- bench seat pistol grip 4spd, ticktoc wood grain dash, am radio, 3.91 suregrip, power steering w/ cooler, manual drum brakes all around, lower rocker chrome, wheel well chrome- I don't recall the size of the radiator but it was huge- possibly 26". I have some under hood shots but years later after the original air cleaner got stolen and I blew up the 383 and stuck a 440 in it. yeah...19 years old.
Posted By: A12
Re: For all you 70 Super Bee guys - NEVER say never! - 03/28/12 07:26 AM
Posted By: TwoLane
Re: For all you 70 Super Bee guys - NEVER say never! - 03/28/12 07:43 AM
Interior pic from 1987 . I thought it would be cool to have buckets so I found factory buckets in Tennessee in the correct color added racing lap belts and installed new carpet for the old tattered stuff. Oh, and installed an under dash stereo. The grips on the PG are original and very worn are is the steering wheel.
Posted By: TwoLane
Re: For all you 70 Super Bee guys - NEVER say never! - 03/28/12 07:47 AM
Rear shot of Bee after a major accident
Note the tailpanel is missing the Bee but has the red striping- I bought the tailpanel to replace my mangled one but was missing the Bee. I later took my original and riveted it to this one.
Posted By: TwoLane
Re: For all you 70 Super Bee guys - NEVER say never! - 03/28/12 07:52 AM
Another shot of the left rear- OUCH. Replaced the left rear 1/4. You wouldn't know it but the stripe was light blue not white. I thought the blue faded into the stripe initually, I pulled the right rear side marker out and where the stripe was curled under- it was blue!
Posted By: TwoLane
Re: For all you 70 Super Bee guys - NEVER say never! - 03/28/12 08:01 AM
Dan asked for a under hood shot- this is again, after the 383 blew up and I put a 440 in-circa 1985 this pic is from summer of 1987. At the time I just wanted to go fast- not be original anymore. Sorry that I don't have a pic of the fender tag. I never thought of taking pics of it when I owned it as a teenager/ young man. Last pic that I have for now.
Posted By: DPelletier
Re: For all you 70 Super Bee guys - NEVER say never! - 03/28/12 03:57 PM
Quote:
A12- first off- very cool Runner! I fully expect all the what if's.. The car sat from 76 until 81 when I bought it. I bought it from a guy that used it for a family car of all things . Now, does that state it's originality- no- Do I firmly believe that this car is what it is? Absolutely.
I know this is going to ruffle alot of feathers. Heck, even if I bought the car new and still had it. People would still say that I would have put the hood on or installed the emblems. One thing is that the car is an original N96 scoop car. It still had the original Holley carb, and oval base/round open element air cleaner assy. Hey anything is possible but, I pulled the front end off (when I wrecked the right fender in 85) and no paint / body work was done to the car before that.
How old is your car in the pic?
My feathers aren't rustled. 
There are hundreds of examples of factory mistakes and your car MIGHT be one of them. I say "might" because when you bought the car it was 11 years old and many things could have happened. I would, however, believe you that it was factory if you bought the car new.
In any case, all I can tell you is that N96 cars weren't SUPPOSED to get the fender badges and the vast majority (actually all that I have seen except yours) don't have them. I will readily admit that your car might have come from the factory that way.
Nice car....that accident damage makes me cringe! The blue stripe is rare and not repoped (leger green is another one).
Dave
Posted By: NANKET
Re: For all you 70 Super Bee guys - NEVER say never! - 03/28/12 06:09 PM
Interesting post with very cool pictures. When I read posts like this one I notice 2 things get overlooked, dealerships and body shops. For those that have worked at new car dealershipsm they know that LOTS of odd things can happen to new cars before they are first sold. Things can get swapped and changed in many ways before the car has its first owner. Wheels, interior, engines/drivetrain, it is not uncommon. Cars get damaged the first day of ownership and they get repaired, sometimes incorrectly, adding emblems, trim, and stripes in the wrong places. The paint gets matched nicely and folks swear it is original, but it is not. There must be many new car dealership stories out there.
Posted By: 62maxwgn
Re: For all you 70 Super Bee guys - NEVER say never! - 03/28/12 06:32 PM
This one also had them,if I can find some more pictures,I'll post them.
Posted By: A12
Re: For all you 70 Super Bee guys - NEVER say never! - 03/28/12 06:52 PM
Bill were they missing in that photo, I don't see them and where's the hood nose Super Bee emblem
Posted By: A12
Re: For all you 70 Super Bee guys - NEVER say never! - 03/28/12 07:02 PM
every '70 bee that I can find with the emblems on the fender has had this style hood:
Posted By: A12
Re: For all you 70 Super Bee guys - NEVER say never! - 03/28/12 07:04 PM
Posted By: 62maxwgn
Re: For all you 70 Super Bee guys - NEVER say never! - 03/29/12 12:09 AM
Quote:
Bill were they missing in that photo, I don't see them and where's the hood nose Super Bee emblem
They are missing ( you notice I said had ) because I started to strip the car,later changed my mind and it ended up with a 440-6,4spd and 410 dana.Sold it about 15yrs ago, it is now in Brookville,PA,about 100mi from me and restored back to it's original configuration,383 4spd 8 3/4 rear.
Posted By: 69RR
Re: For all you 70 Super Bee guys - NEVER say never! - 03/29/12 01:04 AM
Quote:
Interior pic from 1987 . I thought it would be cool to have buckets so I found factory buckets in Tennessee in the correct color added racing lap belts and installed new carpet for the old tattered stuff. Oh, and installed an under dash stereo. The grips on the PG are original and very worn are is the steering wheel.
I don't see the "carb air" pull off in this pic but I'm probably wrong unless that spot of red by the radio....
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: For all you 70 Super Bee guys - NEVER say never! - 03/29/12 02:22 AM
Quote:
I don't see the "carb air" pull off in this pic but I'm probably wrong unless that spot of red by the radio....
Good eye , that's it.
Posted By: coffeeman383
Re: For all you 70 Super Bee guys - NEVER say never! - 03/29/12 01:38 PM
20 keys on the key ring and a piston w/connecting rod!!!?
Posted By: Mr T2U
Re: For all you 70 Super Bee guys - NEVER say never! - 03/29/12 02:09 PM
Quote:
Interesting post with very cool pictures. When I read posts like this one I notice 2 things get overlooked, dealerships and body shops. For those that have worked at new car dealerships they know that LOTS of odd things can happen to new cars before they are first sold. Things can get swapped and changed in many ways before the car has its first owner. Wheels, interior, engines/drivetrain, it is not uncommon. Cars get damaged the first day of ownership and they get repaired, sometimes incorrectly, adding emblems, trim, and stripes in the wrong places. The paint gets matched nicely and folks swear it is original, but it is not. There must be many new car dealership stories out there.
i started working at a new car dealership at the tender age of 13yo, lied about my age and got away with it. at 50yo i still am, different dealer.
i have repaired 100's of new cars that were damaged before a customer ever looked at them. i have swapped wheels, tires, interior trim, and even sheetmetal between cars.
my 72 road runner was purchased NEW with 15 miles on the car. it was a 2 owner car, the original buyer and a flipper i bought it from who bought it and parked it. when i repaired the car both fenders were replaced with used fenders of a different color, both door skins were replaced, the 1/4 panels had filler in them, the bumpers were replaced with bumpers with guards on them that weren't supposed to be on the car, and both sides of the car were repainted. i spoke briefly with the original purchaser of the car briefly at a car show, dummy me never saved the contact info. he said when he owned it it was never in a accident.
so many unusual things that happen to a car or unusual way it was assembled don't always happen at the factory.
Posted By: Diego (not Ted)
Re: For all you 70 Super Bee guys - NEVER say never! - 04/01/12 01:46 AM
I don't really consider this a "never say never" situation. It's more like they stuck a badge at the factory where there should be none - just a goof and nothing more.
Posted By: flypaper
Re: For all you 70 Super Bee guys - NEVER say never! - 04/01/12 02:08 AM
Quote:
I don't really consider this a "never say never" situation. It's more like they stuck a badge at the factory where there should be none - just a goof and nothing more.
without knowing how it came from day one
it really proves a whole lot of nothing 
the fenders could of easily been changed out early in life
with fenders that had been the same color from a non grabber car.
you see primer on the hood, far from untouched....
all it takes is a matter of twisting a few bolts...
it happened alot back then. 
Posted By: Diego (not Ted)
Re: For all you 70 Super Bee guys - NEVER say never! - 04/01/12 03:04 AM
Whatever the case, it's not like it's an oddity like a 4-door Hemi, which fits much better in the "never say never" mold.
Posted By: B5 Bee
Re: For all you 70 Super Bee guys - NEVER say never! - 04/01/12 04:30 AM
Quote:
I don't really consider this a "never say never" situation. It's more like they stuck a badge at the factory where there should be none - just a goof and nothing more.
I agree but the error was installing fenders with emblem holes.
Posted By: A12
Re: For all you 70 Super Bee guys - NEVER say never! - 04/01/12 04:39 AM
Is it more of a chance that the hood was changed? Not knowing Bee's is the N96 only available with the twin scoop hood or also with the center scoop hood like the one in the ad and the one above it I posted? Seems the fender emblems were provided with the center hood scoop hood and not the outboard twin scoop hood.
Posted By: blkbee6pack
Re: For all you 70 Super Bee guys - NEVER say never! - 04/01/12 03:10 PM
If it was a 6pack car with a buldge hood it would have no call numbers for engine size.
The factory ad could be for a 6pack with radio delete?
Posted By: 62maxwgn
Re: For all you 70 Super Bee guys - NEVER say never! - 04/01/12 03:16 PM
Quote:
Seems the fender emblems were provided with the center hood scoop hood and not the outboard twin scoop hood.
Mike,on the one I had I would debate you until the day I die.Also, they were not stick on,they had pin's.
On another note as to never say never,find me information anywhere on a 62 Savoy "9 passenger" wagon,you won't but I have one.Through Chrysler Historical,I found out two were built,both special order and both went to Government agencies,one state and one federal.
Posted By: HPMike
Re: For all you 70 Super Bee guys - NEVER say never! - 04/01/12 04:00 PM
Quote:
Quote:
I don't really consider this a "never say never" situation. It's more like they stuck a badge at the factory where there should be none - just a goof and nothing more.
I agree but the error was installing fenders with emblem holes.
Thats it....
The fact the the 383 were called out on the hood would make the fender emblems redundant. Stuff like this happened all the time and probably wasnt as rare as people might think. How about the 71 Charger R/T with the Super Bee decal on the hood?
MB
Posted By: Dougsmopars
Re: For all you 70 Super Bee guys - NEVER say never! - 04/01/12 05:49 PM
At the Don Garlits Museum in FL there is a 4 door factory hemi coronet. Has all the docs with it. Was ordered by the feds as a new pursuit vehicle. They changed there mind after testing and all it wanted to do was fry the tires. lol Cool car.
Posted By: Scatransit
Re: For all you 70 Super Bee guys - NEVER say never! - 04/02/12 12:45 AM
Quote:
Is it more of a chance that the hood was changed? Not knowing Bee's is the N96 only available with the twin scoop hood or also with the center scoop hood like the one in the ad and the one above it I posted? Seems the fender emblems were provided with the center hood scoop hood and not the outboard twin scoop hood.
Yes A12, the power bulge hood (like the one you posted) would simply say "Super Bee" with the 383 callouts being placed on the fenders. Unless - as mentioned - the car was a V code without N96, in which case the fenders would be blank but he power bulge would (I think) still say "Super Bee". With N96, the sides of the scoops would say 383 or 440, but no "Super Bee" insignia.
Posted By: A12
Re: For all you 70 Super Bee guys - NEVER say never! - 04/02/12 12:55 AM
Quote:
At the Don Garlits Museum in FL there is a 4 door factory hemi coronet. Has all the docs with it. Was ordered by the feds as a new pursuit vehicle. They changed there mind after testing and all it wanted to do was fry the tires. lol Cool car.
4-door Hemi.....how about one in gold, Mike Ross's B/E&A..it has all of the doc's to back it up also
Posted By: A12
Re: For all you 70 Super Bee guys - NEVER say never! - 04/02/12 01:00 AM
Seems that we are still basing the "never say never" on photos and not documentation
Posted By: Bull1tt
Re: For all you 70 Super Bee guys - NEVER say never! - 04/02/12 01:15 AM
I bought a Dodge Grand Caravan in the 80's, when they were in demand. Was looking for a V6 and found one that was a few hundred cheaper than the rest, had the V6 emblems on the fenders- both sides. But under the hood was a four cylinder engine. It hadn't been prepped yet, so added by accident on the line. I ended buying it anyways. If the owner of the Super Bee bought that car used, 11 years old, this really means nothing as far as fender emblems go. Even pinned ones. Too many years and other owners. I added many different emblems to cars I owned over the years.
Posted By: Diego (not Ted)
Re: For all you 70 Super Bee guys - NEVER say never! - 04/02/12 01:16 AM
Quote:
At the Don Garlits Museum in FL there is a 4 door factory hemi coronet. Has all the docs with it. Was ordered by the feds as a new pursuit vehicle. They changed there mind after testing and all it wanted to do was fry the tires. lol Cool car.
That story is unsubstantiated. The other two 4-door Hemi Coronets were built for private individuals. The stories on those two cars are unremarkable other than the special-order process.
Posted By: Dougsmopars
Re: For all you 70 Super Bee guys - NEVER say never! - 04/02/12 01:27 AM
Well i was there looking at it and reading all the Doc's on the car so i'd say that's pretty real. So if you think Don Garlits is lying about the car perhaps you should go there and tell him.
Posted By: TwoLane
Re: For all you 70 Super Bee guys - NEVER say never! - 04/02/12 02:46 AM
Yes, LOL. It doesn't prove anything.
However here ARE the facts that ARE known. I bought this Bee in Sept 1981 from the 2nd owner. He did SQUAT to the car other then trash the engine by pouring gas down the carb to get it started cause he was a dumba$$ and didn't know how to work on cars. The story from him is that he bought it in '73 from the original owner (some guy named Rudy who lived in Harrisburg PA (where the 2nd owner lived) When the owner that I bought it from seized the engine up, it SAT next to his house in Pennbrook PA from Dec 1975 until Sept 1981 when I picked it up.
After all this discussion about who did what to the car - (that frankly I find very amusing)IE: anywhere from someone changing the hood- DUH,to changing the fenders from a wreck- could be but, I'm not buying that notion- I pulled the nose off just for something to do when I was 16 ( I was intrigued as to how the bumpers came off) The fenders bolts still had paint on them- no sign of being removed (paint cracks/missing paint on bolts). to putting the emblems on at the dealer.. THIS I could see happen. The original and 2nd owner could have mounted the emblems (well, I say 100% unlikely the 2nd owner- you would have to have know him- but that's another story) However, the placement is exactly where they belong on the fenders.
So, at the end of the day where do we stand on this? I stand where I know that I DIDN'T change the fenders or the hood so that rules me out. The prior owner before me didn't have squat to his name or any want to do anything to it so I'm going with a big NO for him changing it. BTW- as a side note - not that this makes any difference, the 2nd owner sold the Bee to me to fix up his 78 Datsun 280Z ... Bad choice but that's ancient history.
Lastly, from the production of the car until the 2nd owner is the mystery. Whatever reason the emblems were placed on the car is the unknown. Another hypothetical is the wrong fenders at the factory?
As for the guy saying something about primer on the hood. That car had ALOT of primer on the hood top of fenders, and lower qtrs after I bought it. It's called repairing rust holes to save the original sheetmetal . I know this clears likely nothing up but as stated in the 1st post, I just wanted to share a cool piece of mopar oddity.
Best to all you guys/gals
Posted By: A12
Re: For all you 70 Super Bee guys - NEVER say never! - 04/02/12 03:22 AM
Posted By: Y3 70 BEE
Re: For all you 70 Super Bee guys - NEVER say never! - 04/02/12 03:39 AM
I don't care if it real or not but I can't believe someone has not mentioned the dodge emblem on the grill. lol
Posted By: TwoLane
Re: For all you 70 Super Bee guys - NEVER say never! - 04/02/12 04:15 AM
A12- again- cool car. that (your pic) is more intriguing than mine. I guess I should have posted this as "Check out my 70 Super Bee emblem F***up" instead.
I'm done beating this horse- stuff happens on cars however they do.. I bought this with the emblems where they were and that's that. I don't really care how they may have gotten there.
I'm actually glad that I don't own it anymore for the sole reason of having to explain why the emblems are on the car IE: wrong, put on , changed hood, or whatever people want to dream up.
Posted By: Mr T2U
Re: For all you 70 Super Bee guys - NEVER say never! - 04/02/12 04:19 AM
re-read my post above about my car. unusual things can happen to cars before they are ever delivered to the first owner.
basicly my car was a 1 owner low miles car purchased NEW with 15 miles on the car. i ended up having different colored fenders, door skins replaced and 1/4 panels repaired before the original owner ever saw it to buy. i have repainted 100's of volaries due to industrial fallout before the owners ever purchased there cars. i have removed dodge parts from plymouths, plymouth parts off chryslers, chrysler parts off plymouths that were assembled wrong. i have welded and bondoed trim holes on cars that had the wrong trim installed at the factory. i have replaced damaged sheetmetal on cars that were wrecked when they rolled off the trucks damaged. i have traded doors, hoods, bumpers, wheels and tires between cars because the new owners wanted factory options on there cars when they weren't originally installed on them. i have even seen owners buying 2 new cars with different size motors and having the engines and trans swapped to save on insurance. then they put the other car on consignment to sell.
just because you THINK it's original because the SECOND owner told you so. think again. the only way to be 100% sure something is original is to have photo documentation of the car the moment it rolls off the line.
to all of the people doing factory original restos. my hat is tipped to you for all of your hard work you do. the problem is you really don't know how the car rolled off the line, no one knows. it's just a educated guess at best. cars are assembled wrong at the factory, they get damaged, and sometimes repaired, before they ever make it to the dealerships. with all of the work on paint dabs on the suspension bolts as it left the factory. in all of my years of working at new car dealers, started working at a plymouth dealer in 76. those paint dabs put on nuts and bolts. THE NEW CAR PREP MAN DOES THAT STEP. when they roll off the line there isn't any paint on the bolts. same thing with cotter pins. they are installed by the new car prep man.
Posted By: DPelletier
Re: For all you 70 Super Bee guys - NEVER say never! - 04/02/12 03:58 PM
Quote:
I don't care if it real or not but I can't believe someone has not mentioned the dodge emblem on the grill. lol
...for the record, the grills are painted incorrectly as well.
Dave
Posted By: DPelletier
Re: For all you 70 Super Bee guys - NEVER say never! - 04/02/12 04:26 PM
Quote:
If it was a 6pack car with a buldge hood it would have no call numbers for engine size. The factory ad could be for a 6pack with radio delete?
Correct.
Dave
Posted By: DPelletier
Re: For all you 70 Super Bee guys - NEVER say never! - 04/02/12 04:40 PM
Quote:
A12- again- cool car. that (your pic) is more intriguing than mine. I guess I should have posted this as "Check out my 70 Super Bee emblem F***up" instead.
I'm done beating this horse- stuff happens on cars however they do.. I bought this with the emblems where they were and that's that. I don't really care how they may have gotten there.
I'm actually glad that I don't own it anymore for the sole reason of having to explain why the emblems are on the car IE: wrong, put on , changed hood, or whatever people want to dream up.
Here are the possibilities;
- 1) the wrong fenders were installed at the factory
- 2) the wrong hood was installed at the factory
- 3) car was damaged and repaired using wrong hood OR fenders prior to the original sale
- 4) the original selling dealer added the fender badges
- 5) one of the first two owners swapped the hood or fenders off of another 'Bee.
- 6) one of the first two owners drilled holes and added the fender emblems
- 7) Aliens did it just to add another element to the bag of mysteries like cattle mutilations and crop circles
...Now all you need to do is figure out which is most LIKELY.
Me?, I'll believe the OP when he says the fender bolts were unmolested. I'll say a hood swap is unlikely if that really is the red "carb air" knob we see in that pic. That leaves 1,4,6 &7....and since I'm not really buying into the little green men theory, I'd say that leaves 1,4 & 6 and 1 and 6 are the most likely IMO.
...of course, we will never know for sure.
Dave
Posted By: A12
Re: For all you 70 Super Bee guys - NEVER say never! - 04/02/12 04:56 PM
I like and I'm going with #7
Posted By: A12
Re: For all you 70 Super Bee guys - NEVER say never! - 04/02/12 05:02 PM
still leaves the DODGE emblem as pointed out....so which model had the DODGE emblem in the grille???? Would that model also have the fender callouts too?
Posted By: HPMike
Re: For all you 70 Super Bee guys - NEVER say never! - 04/02/12 05:04 PM
Im also of the opinion tha the wrong fenders were installed...But...It probably wasnt a mistake. Maybe there were no undrilled fenders on hand. And rather than fill the holes it was much easier to just install the emblems and call it a day. I think stuff like this happened all the time. Especially back then, when there wasnt as much scrutiny as you would find today.
As the cars were built they used the parts they were "supposed" to, but if there was a shortage then reasonable means were used to keep the line moving. In a case like this, installing a few extra emblems definitely falls under reasonable means...
MB
Posted By: A12
Re: For all you 70 Super Bee guys - NEVER say never! - 04/02/12 06:01 PM
Quote:
Im also of the opinion tha the wrong fenders were installed...But...It probably wasnt a mistake. Maybe there were no undrilled fenders on hand. And rather than fill the holes it was much easier to just install the emblems and call it a day. I think stuff like this happened all the time. Especially back then, when there wasnt as much scrutiny as you would find today.
As the cars were built they used the parts they were "supposed" to, but if there was a shortage then reasonable means were used to keep the line moving. In a case like this, installing a few extra emblems definitely falls under reasonable means...
MB
Mike, with all of the broadcast sheets and fender tag/build tags starting in Body-in-White to the final control and all of the QC I just don't see that happening but that's just my opinion. People say there was "no quality" or "quality control" but I know there was. When I ordered my '69 road runner (photo earlier in this post) it came just like I ordered it and no issues when it arrived. On of my friends ordered a '68 Hemi road runner the year before and it was delivered just like he ordered and no issues on delivery and another friend ordered a '69 4-speed road runner one month after I did and again no issues. I know that's only three examples but over the years during that time I never heard anyone that didn't get what they ordered or had something odd like extra emblems or they were out of 383 4-barrels so they put in a.......going off the deep end on that but what I mean is that if you can't vouch for how it was delivered then it's all a guess or what you want to believe.
Now I will NEVER be able to prove my A12 road runner came with GTX trim even with the fact there are 48 trim holes in the exact same place as my '69 GTX and the fact that the trim clips slide on the back of the trim so the holes could be off by an 1/8" to 6 inches if someone other than the factory put the holes in that is still not proof that the dealer or owner did them....I wasn't there when the car arrived and I haven't found the original owner....all just speculation
MikeR
Posted By: Morty426
Re: For all you 70 Super Bee guys - NEVER say never! - 04/02/12 06:16 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Im also of the opinion tha the wrong fenders were installed...But...It probably wasnt a mistake. Maybe there were no undrilled fenders on hand. And rather than fill the holes it was much easier to just install the emblems and call it a day. I think stuff like this happened all the time. Especially back then, when there wasnt as much scrutiny as you would find today.
As the cars were built they used the parts they were "supposed" to, but if there was a shortage then reasonable means were used to keep the line moving. In a case like this, installing a few extra emblems definitely falls under reasonable means...
MB
Mike, with all of the broadcast sheets and fender tag/build tags starting in Body-in-White to the final control and all of the QC I just don't see that happening but that's just my opinion. People say there was "no quality" or "quality control" but I know there was. When I ordered my '69 road runner (photo earlier in this post) it came just like I ordered it and no issues when it arrived. On of my friends ordered a '68 Hemi road runner the year before and it was delivered just like he ordered and no issues on delivery and another friend ordered a '69 4-speed road runner one month after I did and again no issues. I know that's only three examples but over the years during that time I never heard anyone that didn't get what they ordered or had something odd like extra emblems or they were out of 383 4-barrels so they put in a.......going off the deep end on that but what I mean is that if you can't vouch for how it was delivered then it's all a guess or what you want to believe.
Now I will NEVER be able to prove my A12 road runner came with GTX trim even with the fact there are 48 trim holes in the exact same place as my '69 GTX and the fact that the trim clips slide on the back of the trim so the holes could be off by an 1/8" to 6 inches if someone other than the factory put the holes in that is still not proof that the dealer or owner did them....I wasn't there when the car arrived and I haven't found the original owner....all just speculation
MikeR
I speak of a 1970 Hemi cuda that was delivered with incorrect interior (leather ordered - car had vinyl) and missing the passenger side mirror. Both are documented with the original paperwork.
I can also tell you that while truck shopping in 99 I found a new 99 Dodge with a leather interior door panel on one side and a cloth interior panel on the other.
I think the factory made plenty of errors.
Posted By: v8punch
Re: For all you 70 Super Bee guys - NEVER say never! - 04/02/12 06:25 PM
Some years ago(I'm not sure but probably 15 or more years), a car factory that i use to work did a car with 2 doors one side and 1 door at the other side, and the car goes until the end of assembly line... a hood or fender will be not big deal.
Posted By: daniel_depetro
Re: For all you 70 Super Bee guys - NEVER say never! - 04/02/12 06:55 PM
Quote:
... I pulled the nose off just for something to do when I was 16 ( I was intrigued as to how the bumpers came off) The fenders bolts still had paint on them- no sign of being removed (paint cracks/missing paint on bolts).
I find this to be the most interesting comment in the entire thread.
I sure am jealous of you people with photographic memories!
I remember a lot of things about how my cars were (or are) until I look at the photos or just go out in the garage and look... Suddenly things that I knew were perfect instantly become not so nice, or mounted/installed/or are altogether different than what I swore was there.
Posted By: A12
Re: For all you 70 Super Bee guys - NEVER say never! - 04/02/12 06:57 PM
I knew this would release a firestorm of
........this seems to be the place to wait and what to do as they come in
Maybe someone will finally prove my A12 road runner really did come with GTX trim from the factory, I mean with all of the mistakes the factory made with such low quality control...
Posted By: HPMike
Re: For all you 70 Super Bee guys - NEVER say never! - 04/02/12 06:59 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Im also of the opinion tha the wrong fenders were installed...But...It probably wasnt a mistake. Maybe there were no undrilled fenders on hand. And rather than fill the holes it was much easier to just install the emblems and call it a day. I think stuff like this happened all the time. Especially back then, when there wasnt as much scrutiny as you would find today.
As the cars were built they used the parts they were "supposed" to, but if there was a shortage then reasonable means were used to keep the line moving. In a case like this, installing a few extra emblems definitely falls under reasonable means...
MB
Mike, with all of the broadcast sheets and fender tag/build tags starting in Body-in-White to the final control and all of the QC I just don't see that happening but that's just my opinion. People say there was "no quality" or "quality control" but I know there was. When I ordered my '69 road runner (photo earlier in this post) it came just like I ordered it and no issues when it arrived. On of my friends ordered a '68 Hemi road runner the year before and it was delivered just like he ordered and no issues on delivery and another friend ordered a '69 4-speed road runner one month after I did and again no issues. I know that's only three examples but over the years during that time I never heard anyone that didn't get what they ordered or had something odd like extra emblems or they were out of 383 4-barrels so they put in a.......going off the deep end on that but what I mean is that if you can't vouch for how it was delivered then it's all a guess or what you want to believe.
Now I will NEVER be able to prove my A12 road runner came with GTX trim even with the fact there are 48 trim holes in the exact same place as my '69 GTX and the fact that the trim clips slide on the back of the trim so the holes could be off by an 1/8" to 6 inches if someone other than the factory put the holes in that is still not proof that the dealer or owner did them....I wasn't there when the car arrived and I haven't found the original owner....all just speculation
MikeR
With all due respect Mike, are you really willing to go out on that limb and say that EVERY car came right off the assembly line with it's all correct parts that it was supposed to have? Heck, Id even think there were "suitable substitutes" for certain conditions where due to part shortages or some other scenario.
Quick story.
I bought a new Dodge Durango in 1999. The next morning when I went to get in the truck I noticed that the "V8Magnum" emblems were missing on the front fenders! No evidence of them ever having them either... Complained to the dealer and they said there were a few that they delivered with that problem. They supplied me the emblems and I stuck em on.
This was in 1999..It couldn't have happened in '69 also??
MB
Posted By: A12
Re: For all you 70 Super Bee guys - NEVER say never! - 04/02/12 07:07 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Im also of the opinion tha the wrong fenders were installed...But...It probably wasnt a mistake. Maybe there were no undrilled fenders on hand. And rather than fill the holes it was much easier to just install the emblems and call it a day. I think stuff like this happened all the time. Especially back then, when there wasnt as much scrutiny as you would find today.
As the cars were built they used the parts they were "supposed" to, but if there was a shortage then reasonable means were used to keep the line moving. In a case like this, installing a few extra emblems definitely falls under reasonable means...
MB
Mike, with all of the broadcast sheets and fender tag/build tags starting in Body-in-White to the final control and all of the QC I just don't see that happening but that's just my opinion. People say there was "no quality" or "quality control" but I know there was. When I ordered my '69 road runner (photo earlier in this post) it came just like I ordered it and no issues when it arrived. On of my friends ordered a '68 Hemi road runner the year before and it was delivered just like he ordered and no issues on delivery and another friend ordered a '69 4-speed road runner one month after I did and again no issues. I know that's only three examples but over the years during that time I never heard anyone that didn't get what they ordered or had something odd like extra emblems or they were out of 383 4-barrels so they put in a.......going off the deep end on that but what I mean is that if you can't vouch for how it was delivered then it's all a guess or what you want to believe.
Now I will NEVER be able to prove my A12 road runner came with GTX trim even with the fact there are 48 trim holes in the exact same place as my '69 GTX and the fact that the trim clips slide on the back of the trim so the holes could be off by an 1/8" to 6 inches if someone other than the factory put the holes in that is still not proof that the dealer or owner did them....I wasn't there when the car arrived and I haven't found the original owner....all just speculation
MikeR
With all due respect Mike, are you really willing to go out on that limb and say that EVERY car came right off the assembly line with it's all correct parts that it was supposed to have? Heck, Id even think there were "suitable substitutes" for certain conditions where due to part shortages or some other scenario.
Quick story.
I bought a new Dodge Durango in 1999. The next morning when I went to get in the truck I noticed that the "V8Magnum" emblems were missing on the front fenders! No evidence of them ever having them either... Complained to the dealer and they said there were a few that they delivered with that problem. They supplied me the emblems and I stuck em on.
This was in 1999..It couldn't have happened in '69 also??
MB
Mike no disrespect taken, but you came up with a perfect example of what is believable as to what may or may not have changed with a two TITLED owner car that could end up being who knows how many owners on the OP's car. YOU bought the Durango NEW and you noticed the missing emblems. If you didn't install them then what would the third owner think or how could they prove that "some" were missing the emblems?
I can't prove anything on my A12 rr because I didn't buy it new, just my opinion about all of this.
Posted By: DPelletier
Re: For all you 70 Super Bee guys - NEVER say never! - 04/02/12 07:29 PM
Quote:
Im also of the opinion tha the wrong fenders were installed...But...It probably wasnt a mistake. Maybe there were no undrilled fenders on hand. And rather than fill the holes it was much easier to just install the emblems and call it a day. I think stuff like this happened all the time. Especially back then, when there wasnt as much scrutiny as you would find today.
As the cars were built they used the parts they were "supposed" to, but if there was a shortage then reasonable means were used to keep the line moving. In a case like this, installing a few extra emblems definitely falls under reasonable means...
MB
I never said WHY they may have used the wrong fenders, but your scenario is quite plausible IMO.
Dave
Posted By: B5 Bee
Re: For all you 70 Super Bee guys - NEVER say never! - 04/02/12 07:39 PM
It's difficult to prove any mistake by the factory. Sure they happened but no way to document most of them.
A well known confirmed mistake was the two burnt orange Superbirds. They made it thru paint before the error was discovered. The decision was made to send them on down the line instead of doing a repaint.
Emblem changes have been an easy modification for years.
-A pal of mine added the 383Magnum fender emblems to his F6 N96 '69 Super Bee. This was back in 1990, he was the second owner. I'm sure later owners may have thought it was a factory miscue and are thinking 'NEVER say never!'.
-My '70 B5 Bee, that I've had since 1992, has the Super Bee emblem on the N96 scoops, not the 440 call outs. You can see on the inside of the scoops where the 440 emblem holes had been filled. No doubt it was an attempt for stealth by a prior owner, or was it, 'NEVER say never!'.
Posted By: DPelletier
Re: For all you 70 Super Bee guys - NEVER say never! - 04/02/12 07:51 PM
Quote:
still leaves the DODGE emblem as pointed out....so which model had the DODGE emblem in the grille???? Would that model also have the fender callouts too?
Neither the Superbee nor the R/T used the grills with the DODGE emblem. They were commonly replaced parts (very fragile) with most replacements coming from the bread and butter Deluxe, 440 and 500 models. I've been unable to ascertain (due to the fact so many have been swapped) what the exact pattern of grill paints etc. corresponded to the various models. I BELIEVE that the R/T's and Superbees were the only ones to get the ones as pictured below and I also believe that the 440 model cars got "all argent" grills.
....of course, that doesn't mean some didn't squeek through with incorrect grills as HPMike has suggested...but most that are sporting the wrong grills are just because someone used replacements from another model Coronet.
Member Andy C's survivor 'Bee;
Dave
Posted By: DPelletier
Re: For all you 70 Super Bee guys - NEVER say never! - 04/02/12 07:52 PM
Another survivor;
Dave
Posted By: DPelletier
Re: For all you 70 Super Bee guys - NEVER say never! - 04/02/12 07:56 PM
This picture has caused much confusion and is responsible for a number of incorrect cars;
...like this one;
(notice the bright screws as well)
Dave
Posted By: DPelletier
Re: For all you 70 Super Bee guys - NEVER say never! - 04/02/12 07:58 PM
I believe these are the "non R/T/Superbee" grills;
....anyhow; sorry for the
Dave
Posted By: DPelletier
Re: For all you 70 Super Bee guys - NEVER say never! - 04/02/12 08:23 PM
Arrg; I hate getting old!
..after posting I remembered that the 500's got black grills too (albeit WITH the Dodge emblem). Looks like only the Deluxe and 440 got the argent ones.
Refer to this;
Thanks to Barry and Hamtramck Historical
Dave
Posted By: His and Her 69's
Re: For all you 70 Super Bee guys - NEVER say never! - 04/03/12 07:59 AM
Ok so here is another one of one, NOT!!
I bought this car from the second owner, he is the brother of the original owner who bought it Brand New.
It has the R/T scoops on it and everyone said it was an R/T superbee from the factory, this is from people that thought they knew the car.
I asked the previous owners, I worked for them, and the 2nd owner said he just liked the scoops so he bought them thru the dealership and installed them early in the cars life.
It's a 383, 4bbl, auto, stripe delete car.
If no one could find the previous owners the story still might be it was an R/T superbee from the factory.
P.s. the car only has 56,000 original miles and all but 1 quater panel being original to the car. (Damaged from a wreck and replaced)
So like said unless you bought it new anything could have been changed. Even maybe changed before you got it new.
David
Posted By: DPelletier
Re: For all you 70 Super Bee guys - NEVER say never! - 04/03/12 10:26 PM
Hmmm EB3?
cool and relatively rare color.
Dave
Posted By: Diego (not Ted)
Re: For all you 70 Super Bee guys - NEVER say never! - 04/04/12 05:25 AM
Quote:
Well i was there looking at it and reading all the Doc's on the car so i'd say that's pretty real. So if you think Don Garlits is lying about the car perhaps you should go there and tell him.
At this point it's beating a dead horse but who said anything about Garlits lying about his car? Rather, it's about people willing to believe anything they hear.
If you read THIS story, it says "Purportedly special ordered by the Federal Bureau of Investigation…."
Posted By: His and Her 69's
Re: For all you 70 Super Bee guys - NEVER say never! - 04/04/12 05:39 AM
Correct Dave, It is an EB3 color bee.
It also has EB3 valour (fuzzy seat material) inserts in the bench seats as the vinyl kept tearing/cracking so the second owner also had that installed. It's starting to come apart on the top edge but it looks Cool and retro, I like it!!
Later David
Posted By: Morty426
Re: For all you 70 Super Bee guys - NEVER say never! - 04/04/12 04:43 PM
Quote:
Ok so here is another one of one, NOT!!
I bought this car from the second owner, he is the brother of the original owner who bought it Brand New.
It has the R/T scoops on it and everyone said it was an R/T superbee from the factory, this is from people that thought they knew the car.
I asked the previous owners, I worked for them, and the 2nd owner said he just liked the scoops so he bought them thru the dealership and installed them early in the cars life.
It's a 383, 4bbl, auto, stripe delete car.
If no one could find the previous owners the story still might be it was an R/T superbee from the factory.
P.s. the car only has 56,000 original miles and all but 1 quater panel being original to the car. (Damaged from a wreck and replaced)
So like said unless you bought it new anything could have been changed. Even maybe changed before you got it new.
David
David
I had a 1970 Coronet R/T that the original owner wanted a Superbee. The dealership changed out the nose emblem and the guy bought the car.
I had paperwork from the dealership that said "Coronet R/T Superbee"
Posted By: His and Her 69's
Re: For all you 70 Super Bee guys - NEVER say never! - 04/05/12 07:46 AM
Wow I guess our cars are 2 of 2 then!!! Ha Ha
The bad thing is now our cars are NOT worth as much since they made 2 of them.
Good story.
David
Posted By: cdp
Re: For all you 70 Super Bee guys - NEVER say never! - 04/06/12 08:48 PM
A little bit later in years, but we have a 1978 Dodge Warlock 4x4 with 400/auto/AC,cruise,tuff wheel, slider window, tach and gages, tow package, am/fm 8-track... and with complete SE Adventurer interior (woodgrain dash, vinyl door panels).
Build sheet clearlyr shows "custom" as far as interior, but my dad is the second owner and bought in 79 with a mere 10k or so miles on it. Now, it has only 60k miles and is still original.
All interior has to be factory installed. The 1st owner special ordered it and was also a parts manager at Palmer Dodge in Indy. I think he ordered the interior special even though it doesn't appear on the build sheet.
Or added upon delivery. The truck was traded in at Inskeep Motors in Greenfield, IN in 79 on a new trans am.... thats when my dad bought it.
Posted By: Anonymous
Post deleted by moparts - 04/07/12 01:29 AM
Posted By: Rhinodart
Re: For all you 70 Super Bee guys - NEVER say never! - 04/07/12 04:50 AM
Here is a 69 GTX I inspected for a client. It has 97 paint code but was later painted F8 because nobody could figure out what the 97 color was!
There are NO traces that it ever had the GTX rocker chrome either!
Posted By: Rhinodart
Re: For all you 70 Super Bee guys - NEVER say never! - 04/07/12 04:51 AM
Here is the tag, according to all literature I have ever seen 97 was available on Roadrunner only, not GTX!
Posted By: Rhinodart
Re: For all you 70 Super Bee guys - NEVER say never! - 04/07/12 04:56 AM
BTW, my 69 Dart GTS had DART SWINGER stripe on one side and GT SPORT stripe on the other. I am the 2nd owner and bought it in 1978. The original owner's buddy (who was given the car for a debt owed) told him that was the way he bought it. It has a Friday SPD, so could have been started on a Friday and finished the next Monday, who knows?
Another never say never, but I didn't care when I restored it, there are GT SPORT stripes on both sides.
Posted By: A12
Re: For all you 70 Super Bee guys - NEVER say never! - 04/07/12 05:44 AM
Quote:
Here is a 69 GTX I inspected for a client. There are NO traces that it ever had the GTX rocker chrome either!
Jim with that being a GTX with a Lynch Road 4-23 SPD and no GTX trim and the second batch of A12's at a 4-26 SPD and that GTX is not too far away from my A12 road runner with the GTX trim by maybe a few days by VIN....I think I know what might have happened to the GTX trim 
Posted By: Diego (not Ted)
Re: For all you 70 Super Bee guys - NEVER say never! - 04/07/12 02:49 PM
Quote:
There is a small group of self ordained experts who are the only ones allowed to preach the "Never say Never" philosophy.
That's kinda interesting because what I notice is that the people who usually throw out that term are far from experts.
Posted By: Anonymous
Post deleted by moparts - 04/07/12 07:38 PM
Posted By: flypaper
Re: For all you 70 Super Bee guys - NEVER say never! - 04/08/12 01:41 AM
What is really "interesting" and entertaining is to watch others debate unprovable, hypothetical scenarios that MIGHT have occurred 40 years ago.
that discribes the very first post in this thread
Posted By: DPelletier
Re: For all you 70 Super Bee guys - NEVER say never! - 04/09/12 05:25 PM
Quote:
Thanks for posting those nostalgic photos. You have a very nice and unique vehicle. Since I have no evidence to prove or disprove your observations it would be ridiculous to even try. With that said, you must remember to maintain peace and walk in step with a select few. There is a small group of self ordained experts who are the only ones allowed to preach the "Never say Never" philosophy. What they really mean to say is that unless their opinion coincides with yours, you will always be wrong. Even offering factual, substantiated data will have no thought provoking effect. The concept of "never say never" is nothing more than a catch phrase used by some who believe they have an inherent authority over the insignificant individuals that make up this hobby.
Did I miss some "factual, substantiated data" as it relates to the question raised in this thread?
...oh, and welcome to Moparts.
Dave
Posted By: Anonymous
Post deleted by moparts - 04/09/12 06:09 PM
Posted By: DPelletier
Re: For all you 70 Super Bee guys - NEVER say never! - 04/09/12 06:20 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Did I miss some "factual, substantiated data" as it relates to the question raised in this thread?
I have no idea as to what you may or may not have missed. The question you asked yourself can only be answered by you.
Thanks for the "welcome".
...it was a rhetorical question.
Dave
Posted By: Anonymous
Post deleted by moparts - 04/09/12 06:40 PM
Posted By: DPelletier
Re: For all you 70 Super Bee guys - NEVER say never! - 04/09/12 07:41 PM
Quote:
Quote:
...it was a rhetorical question.
You're kidding? I had no idea! (lol)
...perhaps not.
Posted By: Sssnake383
Re: For all you 70 Super Bee guys - NEVER say never! - 04/09/12 08:54 PM
Quote:
Did I miss some "factual, substantiated data" as it relates to the question raised in this thread?
Picture-prefect response!!
Quote:
...oh, and welcome to Moparts.
Dave
bigleague looks like a nice addition to the crew... 
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: For all you 70 Super Bee guys - NEVER say never! - 04/12/12 10:49 PM
Quote:
bigleague looks like a nice addition to the crew...
I'll go out on a limb and say minorleague is a multi-time banned member that couldn't take not being able to belittle those he looks down upon from his lofty perch as the God of all that is correct in the restoration world ... as he sees it anyway .
Posted By: DPelletier
Re: For all you 70 Super Bee guys - NEVER say never! - 04/12/12 10:55 PM
Quote:
Quote:
bigleague looks like a nice addition to the crew...
I'll go out on a limb and say minorleague is a multi-time banned member that couldn't take not being able to belittle those he looks down upon from his lofty perch as the God of all that is correct in the restoration world ... as he sees it anyway .
Yeah, I kinda figured that for a "student" with 6 posts that has been a member for a week, he had quite a bit to say about how things happen here.....and like you; I have a pretty good idea who it is.
Dave
Posted By: Anonymous
Post deleted by moparts - 04/12/12 11:23 PM
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: For all you 70 Super Bee guys - NEVER say never! - 04/12/12 11:29 PM
I really doubt your narcissistic arrogance would allow such a thing .
Can one use narcissistic as an adjective for arrogance ???
Posted By: Anonymous
Post deleted by moparts - 04/12/12 11:37 PM
Posted By: ply64post
Re: For all you 70 Super Bee guys - NEVER say never! - 04/13/12 01:15 AM
You will find the majority of the other forums are pretty forgiving to new members but not this one !!
……photo back to 1970 proves……… ABSOLUTLEY NOTHING but if that’s all it takes is a photo or two and the second owner said it was on there then I’m with you. 