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easiest way to tell if you boned an SB intake install?

Posted By: Sixgun

easiest way to tell if you boned an SB intake install? - 11/12/11 03:46 AM

After much whining, scraping/cleaning/painting parts, getting wet,spending $ ("oh it's too nice to use THIS alternator now...")
the .040 360 hydro-roller is IN the Wifes car.
Got her started up without too much drama,barely gets down to say a 1500 idle, then dies suddenly,hard to restart.Tried different carb, same results,different distrib, same results.(worth mentioning ALL parts are known running stuff from old motor just 4 weeks ago)
Dies completely when I drop in gear (TF)

Now the confession...
Seems like the block and/or heads are milled a wee bit, bolts on the old Torker would not line up.(intake at least 1/8" high maybe more).
As the intake was free,and had some thread issues, I did not feel bad about egging out the holes 1/8 plus DOWN, then Hylomar'ed everything in place and bolted her up.
We also painted the engine bay, and as I was very reluctant to scrape all the grounding areas, I ran 12 gauge ground "jumpers" with ring terminals from the braided block ground at the ECU to voltage regulator and starter solenoid, and all that jazz seems OK.
Again, smooths out around 3 grand, but still ragged, shot timing at about 35 total (what should initial be ?)still hard starting, dies off hard to restart.
Obviously I'll end up pulling the intake,and having one cut for this motor,but I'd sure like
to be sure I'm on the right track before making more work for myself.
Please help, please round table discuss?
I am in no position to discount ANY theories just yet...
Thanks, Casey
Posted By: scratchnfotraction

Re: easiest way to tell if you boned an SB intake install? - 11/12/11 03:58 AM

get a timeing light and start at 10* BTDC,then use a vac gauge to set curb idle along with the idle airscrews,shoot for a 750rpm in N idle

see what that gets,may want to use an un-lite propain torch arounD intake gasket areas and carb base looking for vac leaks..rpm will go up if it sux it in.

you could use vac gauge to get highest vac reading then check to see where the timeing is and tune from there.

hard starting sound way advanced and will run ruff and stall
Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: easiest way to tell if you boned an SB intake install? - 11/12/11 04:05 AM

pull the intake & mock it up with some composition side gaskets/no front or rear gaskets & check fit (bolt hole/port alignment). If good install it but dont use the supplied front/rear gaskets but instead use a wide carefully placed swath of clear silicone on the front/rear rails instead. Clean the mating surfaces 1st and let the intake set up overnight before starting it up. EDIT if there's any dowel pins on the front/rear rails pull them & toss em
Posted By: Sixgun

Re: easiest way to tell if you boned an SB intake install? - 11/12/11 06:00 AM

Before I realized the mis alignment I ruined one set of MrG ultraseals as the end rail corks were way thicker than stockers...???
I will try my short curve modded dist.with a new vac advance can tomorrow, and try 10 before with no vac advance hooked up.
But I have a strong feeling it's not just timing.
It just feels wrong, explaining my question about a way to be sure the intake is sealed or not sealed...
Thanks guys!
Posted By: 451Mopar

Re: easiest way to tell if you boned an SB intake install? - 11/12/11 08:31 AM

If the intake won't sit down for the bolt holes to line up, check without the end seal gaskets.
On my 360 the heads and block were milled to where I just used some RTV for the end seals.
If the intake is still to high on the heads, you will have to mill the intake (or heads on the intake side.) Enlarging the bolt holes is not a good idea, bolted on that way the cylinder head intake ports and the intake manifold ports are going to be out of alignment.
Posted By: scratchnfotraction

Re: easiest way to tell if you boned an SB intake install? - 11/12/11 03:50 PM

Quote:

If the intake won't sit down for the bolt holes to line up, check without the end seal gaskets.
On my 360 the heads and block were milled to where I just used some RTV for the end seals.
If the intake is still to high on the heads, you will have to mill the intake (or heads on the intake side.) Enlarging the bolt holes is not a good idea, bolted on that way the cylinder head intake ports and the intake manifold ports are going to be out of alignment.



and very well could be sucking oil and air/vac into the ports causeing it to smoke and run poorly.
Posted By: Dean_Kuzluzski

Re: easiest way to tell if you boned an SB intake install? - 11/12/11 04:13 PM

Maybe I missed it but did you do a compression test? Vacuum gauge test for a pulsating or low reading? Read plugs for coolant?? Coolant in oil? Bubbles in coolant/rad?

I wouldn't just pull the intake and write it off until I knew more.
Posted By: MoparforLife

Re: easiest way to tell if you boned an SB intake install? - 11/12/11 04:44 PM

The locating dowels on at the rear of the block may well be holding the intake up. Have yet to see an after market intake drill for them. either gt rid of the locating dowels or drill the intake for them.
Posted By: Sixgun

Re: easiest way to tell if you boned an SB intake install? - 11/12/11 05:07 PM

No oil in coolant,oil looks new, as it should,
no compression test as of yet, motor is fresh,bought off a trusted member,will do that and at the same time, have a look at plugs soonest.
I am at the beginning of the baseline troubleshooting procedure.I certainly will know more soon.That's why I was trying to establish if the intake port gasket seal is "go/no go" before I go to the next steps.BTW motor has NO end dowels,haven't been caught by that in quite a few years :-)
Thanks guys!
Posted By: Sixgun

Re: easiest way to tell if you boned an SB intake install? - 11/13/11 03:18 AM

UPDATE:
Had carb off, and can actually see down intake ports to near valve.Ran a small stainless rod down in the port to "feel" the edge where intake meets head...not much of a "step", seems like a pretty smooth transition.No obvious gasket "line" visible either.
BUT this intake was clean and bone dry when installed a week or so ago, and it had a wet look to it in the runners.Wiped it with a clean paper shop towel, and it is fresh motor oil.Now it could have been a little pull thru from the PCV,
but the motor only has maybe 30 minutes run time since I fired it in THIS car.
My gut tells me the intake ports are not sealed on the underside.May still run a compression test and try a vac gauge.
Thoughts?
Posted By: Sixgun

Re: easiest way to tell if you boned an SB intake install? - 11/13/11 08:47 AM

Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: easiest way to tell if you boned an SB intake install? - 11/13/11 04:00 PM

Quote:

My gut tells me the intake ports are not sealed on the underside.May still run a compression test and try a vac gauge.
Thoughts?

(1) the gut is rarely wrong. (2) I'd pass on the further testing & R&R it & get it solved & up & running
Posted By: kilroy

Re: easiest way to tell if you boned an SB intake install? - 11/13/11 04:29 PM

Im along the line its probably something else. SB will leak coolant in the oil if the intake is not aligned. (Dont ask me how I know)
Posted By: NTOLERANCE

Re: easiest way to tell if you boned an SB intake install? - 11/14/11 03:47 AM

Easy test for a vacuum leak, with an air cleaner installed that has a single snorkel, lightly begin to take your hand and cover the inlet, slooooooowly....

As you begine to close more and more of the intake snorkel off, the engine may increase RPM.

If it does increase, 100% thats a vacuum leak...

You can use a rag as well to cover it, be careful, dont hurt yourself....
Posted By: WheelsUp73

Re: easiest way to tell if you boned an SB intake install? - 11/14/11 05:28 AM

Wanna check for an internal vacuum leak thats easy. First plug off all the breather ports to the motor( valve covers and pcv to motor, then remove the dip stick and install a vacuum gauge on the tube, start the motor and rev to 2000 , if the vacuum gauge reads vacuum then the manifold is leaking internally.

Attached picture 6918569-bigwheelieatSamoa.jpg
Posted By: Sixgun

Re: easiest way to tell if you boned an SB intake install? - 11/14/11 08:17 PM

WE HAVE A WINNER (s)!!!!(well in a few minutes, anyway...)
Ntolerance and Wheelsup73, both very good suggestions.I'm sure someone somewhere told me these things long ago, but just turning 50, it all ran out the other ear :-)
Seriously the carb rag should work well,
the dipstick deal is Einstein!(are we sure the normal crankcase pressure will not exceed the vacuum generated?)This motor is rebuilt and presumably tight, so should work as described...
Out now to try!
THANKS!!!
Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: easiest way to tell if you boned an SB intake install? - 11/14/11 08:22 PM

You sound pumped
Posted By: Sixgun

Re: easiest way to tell if you boned an SB intake install? - 11/14/11 08:25 PM

Rob, sending you a PM.
Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: easiest way to tell if you boned an SB intake install? - 11/14/11 08:28 PM

I gotta be in the office in 2 minutes. I'll read it & get back to you ASAP
Posted By: WheelsUp73

Re: easiest way to tell if you boned an SB intake install? - 11/14/11 10:27 PM

Quote:

WE HAVE A WINNER (s)!!!!(well in a few minutes, anyway...)
Ntolerance and Wheelsup73, both very good suggestions.I'm sure someone somewhere told me these things long ago, but just turning 50, it all ran out the other ear :-)
Seriously the carb rag should work well,
the dipstick deal is Einstein!(are we sure the normal crankcase pressure will not exceed the vacuum generated?)This motor is rebuilt and presumably tight, so should work as described...
Out now to try!
THANKS!!!



As the engine is running it will either build alot of vacuum very quickly or the vac gauge will read in positive pressure.
By the way this test is a Chrysler factory test for the 5.2 and 5.9 motors that may have a lower intake gasket blown but it works on all motors that have the intake sealed to the lifter valley. Good luck!
Posted By: Sixgun

Re: easiest way to tell if you boned an SB intake install? - 11/14/11 10:31 PM

OK...
put one of those "boost' type carb hats on, had to use two circle gaskets as the eddy carb needs that plastic "extender" ring, fired it up with PCV hose plugged.I finally got about 1000 RPM idle last night,starts pretty quick, got some more info from Baxter on the motor personality too.
1)
Put the rag on the hat snorkel sloooowly, and the motor does NOT speed up,it dies.Did it several times, and just now realized I should have unhooked the brake booster, just to be sure.I will do this too in a little while.This shouldn't matter, but I have to be methodical.

2)masking taped over the oil fill cap holes tightly, plugged the PCV,hooked up a GOOD vac gauge to the dipstick tube and started her up at about 2K.
ZERO vacuum.Revved up to about 3K still no movement on the needle.

In all fairness, the valve covers are double gasketed, so not sure how great a crankcase seal I have, but that's what I got so far.
Going to recheck 1st test just to be thorough, and then tweak timing and check what initial versus total is right now.Updates later.
Posted By: scratchnfotraction

Re: easiest way to tell if you boned an SB intake install? - 11/14/11 11:43 PM

why 2 Vc gaskets? someone forget to remove the old ones?

Posted By: Sixgun

Re: easiest way to tell if you boned an SB intake install? - 11/15/11 02:28 AM

Off the track, but the covers would not go down and seal, as they ran into the small bosses on top of the intake (like 4 small raised bumps)
Posted By: scratchnfotraction

Re: easiest way to tell if you boned an SB intake install? - 11/15/11 12:24 PM

Quote:

Off the track, but the covers would not go down and seal, as they ran into the small bosses on top of the intake (like 4 small raised bumps)



ok,I get it,i have had to clearance alum VC before cuase of that,but never doubled up the gaskets.
Posted By: Sixgun

Re: easiest way to tell if you boned an SB intake install? - 11/15/11 04:59 PM

Yeah at that point I mentally NEEDED to hear the motor fire.There was an extra used set of thick ones lying around, so I shmooey'ed em up a little and on they went.
This will get addressed.
So my friend the motor came from reminded me the dampener zero mark seemed "off" to him by maybe 7 degrees "shy" of what it actually is.Not having a degree wheel,or access to one, I did the pushrod in the hole thing and it seemed real close to me, if not right there.This was on the stand.
Yesterday I timed it at 27 total, and it hates it.
I also feel the Eddy 750 cannot supply enough air/fuel/pumpshot down low for this setup.
I think either my 850DP or the other 850 with the 4 corner may help.Still stalls badly when I drop it in gear, so I am going back to trusting the timing marks on the dampener, and if I EVER get to drive this thing, check for 'ping' under load and back her off till it sounds good.
As I said, I could not detect the major intake leak I suspected, but will probably pull it anyway this week.Probably go to a dual plane like my old LD340.My pal has an air gap I can get, too.
Will post any new developments, thanks guys/gals!
Casey
Posted By: Sixgun

Re: easiest way to tell if you boned an SB intake install? - 11/17/11 07:34 AM

OK here's the latest.
Decided the dampener mark was CLOSE based on my gut, and how it sounds when I time it as if it is true.
Set to 35 total.Checked the initial(vac disconnected, about 1200 rpm idle, maybe 1000,
initial is at 27 WOW! I sure did weld those slots up a bit, didn't I?
For now, I am going to go with it, as the total is where it needs to be, and it ran well with the 318/small purple shaft and this distrib.previously.
Cleaning up the Holley 850, as again, my gut is telling me the Eddy 750 (which a lot of you hate anyway)just can't keep this thing happy enough for a decent idle.previous motor owner suggested cracking all 4 throttle blades (holley) until the transfer slots make a square, and try that as a baseline.
As of right now, still stalls out/falls flat going into gear immediately.
Thanks gang!
Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: easiest way to tell if you boned an SB intake install? - 11/17/11 04:28 PM

at 1000 or 1200 showing 27 initial you may very well already be into the springs/slots. I think at this point I'd bite the bullet & change the intake making sure it's sealed, time the dist from scratch then if not solved deal w the carb.
Posted By: Sixgun

Re: easiest way to tell if you boned an SB intake install? - 11/17/11 05:09 PM

OK RR, but as of my earlier observations, the intake may still have some kind of sealing issue, just not a massive one...
That being said, I probably will go back to square one and very probably most likely swap intakes as I just am not confident in this old Torker, and a good dual plane may help, and also I will eliminate the end seals entirely just on GP.
With the light springs in the distrib. I may well be into the curve already.That won't help either.
Thanks
Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: easiest way to tell if you boned an SB intake install? - 11/17/11 05:14 PM

Stay in touch bro & holler w any news/progress
Posted By: Sixgun

Re: easiest way to tell if you boned an SB intake install? - 11/18/11 06:45 AM

Called friend, made deal, air gap coming tomorrow.

Just for S&G cleaned up old 850.Got it to idle down quite a bit, maybe 900-1000 now, sounds pretty good, still ragged.10-11 inches of vac.Idle screws out like 2&1/2 turns, revs quick, sounds strong.Still dies when I put in gear.Started right up, shut right off, tried to tune timing further (mistake!) with vacuum gauge, got a little more vac. out of it (12") but motor did not sound as happy.Still dies in gear.
Also starting to think I may NOT have used a factory high stall, as the sticker was long gone.
I should still (I hope)be able to make this work, as it doesn't seem all that rocky a cam.
More later.Crabby.
C
Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: easiest way to tell if you boned an SB intake install? - 11/18/11 07:52 PM

Hey C if I could afford to come over & attempt to help you I would ex I probably would not want to come home
Posted By: Sixgun

Re: easiest way to tell if you boned an SB intake install? - 11/19/11 03:25 AM

Rob,if you fixed this, I probably wouldn't LET you go home!!!
Posted By: Sixgun

Re: easiest way to tell if you boned an SB intake install? - 11/21/11 07:56 AM

OK, Air gap bolt holes line up "right down broadway"
with NO end seals and NO gaskets.
I would think I'd still be off if it were a really bad mismatch.
Y'all think it's in the ballpark, or do I need to
set the new fel-pros in place (again, no end seals) and double check?
On another, much more serious note, these heads were max-ported, and a few days ago, I noticed a 'void' (or so I thought) on the wall of the intake port divider.Small, like BB sized.Noted to self to address later.
Later came tonight, and I realized that all 4 intake port divider walls had the same issue.The 1/4 inch VC bolt holes were slightly broken through into the port divider.I didn't use super long VC bolts or anything, and I do not remember seeing these'holes' before I installed the intake.Maybe there was a little oil in the VC bolt holes and I hydraulic'ed the bottom out of the holes??I have about an hour of runtime on the motor, so I now need to decide if the heads have to come off.as far as the breakouts, I will just JB them and smooth off,then use 1/4"studs and nuts on the VCs.
The 'chips' would be roughly 1/16" to 1/8" in diameter, and maybe .020 thick, maybe slightly thicker, I dunno.If they are loose in the chambers and manage to wedge against the piston wall,(If they haven't already) it will score the cylinder and maybe damage the piston.As it is now, they already went thru the valves, so whatever happened there, is done.
Thoughts on both?
Thanks, C
Posted By: NTOLERANCE

Re: easiest way to tell if you boned an SB intake install? - 11/21/11 10:47 AM

Quote:

On another, much more serious note, these heads were max-ported, and a few days ago, I noticed a 'void' (or so I thought) on the wall of the intake port divider.Small, like BB sized.Noted to self to address later.
Later came tonight, and I realized that all 4 intake port divider walls had the same issue.The 1/4 inch VC bolt holes were slightly broken through into the port divider.I didn't use super long VC bolts or anything, and I do not remember seeing these'holes' before I installed the intake.Maybe there was a little oil in the VC bolt holes and I hydraulic'ed the bottom out of the holes??I have about an hour of runtime on the motor, so I now need to decide if the heads have to come off.as far as the breakouts, I will just JB them and smooth off,then use 1/4"studs and nuts on the VCs.
The 'chips' would be roughly 1/16" to 1/8" in diameter, and maybe .020 thick, maybe slightly thicker, I dunno.If they are loose in the chambers and manage to wedge against the piston wall,(If they haven't already) it will score the cylinder and maybe damage the piston.As it is now, they already went thru the valves, so whatever happened there, is done.
Thoughts on both?
Thanks, C



NO JB weld please! IMO the JB weld could break loose and end up in the chambers.

Did you have alot of silicone in the bolt holes for the valve covers? Too much could break the casting if its got no place to go.

Time to pull the heads and have it brazed, or if your really not worried ( I cant tell how bad it is without pics) silicone the bolts and let that seal it up.

You really need to pull it anyway, the metal from the heads got into the chambers, you need to look for damage now.
Posted By: Sixgun

Re: easiest way to tell if you boned an SB intake install? - 11/21/11 06:18 PM

Yeah, I have to decide if I'm going to roll the dice.Motor was not free.Labor it took to put in nicely was not fun either.
Ntolerance, no, there was no silicone involved, maybe oil though.
Chances are good they already blew thru, and there were only 4 chips missing (4 holes)
but ultimately I have to decide.
Anybody know if there is more than 1 bore size for SB head gaskets?I have a nice set of MrGs for 318 NIB, as well as a pair of McCords.Not bought for the 360 though.
Rapid Robert your PM box is full!

Posted By: Sixgun

Re: easiest way to tell if you boned an SB intake install? - 11/22/11 03:22 AM

Update,
gutted up and opened 'er up.I was already most of the way there, so small loss.
So far ZERO signs of any trauma (Rapid, you were right...so far :-))
So now I get to do the minor repair of the bolt hole/stud deal on the workbench

Instead of leaning over the fender on my bear belly.
I will take my time and run all the pistons down their bores fully and have a look see with a nice bright light.No sense wasting the effort.I was thinking of making a super thin plastic tool like out of Clorox bottle thickness stuff and running it thru all the piston/wall cracks just to be sure.(non scratching)with the piston at the top of the bore.
I guess I'll have more confidence that everything that can be checked, will be...
C
Then, back to the intake issue!
Posted By: Sixgun

Re: easiest way to tell if you boned an SB intake install? - 11/27/11 03:43 AM

Update, OK over 1/2 done. cleaned carbon from chambers, sprayed brake cleaner thru breaches in center dividers,blew them clean and dry, light coat of synthetic oil on stud threads for no-stick, mixed up the super sauce and twirled it in with a bamboo skewer, then slapped a small square of thick visquine over the repairs to push them in and smooth them out.
Next day, studs now part of head (oh well)
lightly sanded down patches with 80 grit with paper towel stuffed in port, vacuumed dust then blew out with air.
On to the block.
C
Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: easiest way to tell if you boned an SB intake install? - 11/27/11 05:30 AM

Was wondering when you were going to get away from the beach & the eye candy & get back on the car
Posted By: AdamR

Re: easiest way to tell if you boned an SB intake install? - 03/06/12 08:44 PM

If the intake fit perfect without the gaskets on it have a machine mill the gasket thickness off the face of the intake.

Seal the valve cover screw holes that poke into the ports( which is normal on ported heads) with a good thread sealer
Posted By: Sixgun

Re: easiest way to tell if you boned an SB intake install? - 03/10/12 05:46 AM

Just like your friend said about something else,
THIS is now a non-issue.
Time to forget, move forward, someday forgive.
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