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weird cylinder heads on 440... spark plug won't fit?!??

Posted By: dem440c

weird cylinder heads on 440... spark plug won't fit?!?? - 11/10/11 02:12 PM

got a buddy who bought a project car with a 440 engine and he has found an odd problem. He can't get the spark plugs to go in because there is some kind of weird growth cast into the cyl heads just below the spark plug opening:



now, he lives a few hours away so I haven't seen these in person yet, this is just the picture he sent me. I've had my hands on pretty much every factory Mopar cyl head and many of the aftermarket ones and this is something I've never seen. He popped a valve cover and found the casting number 7579007, which I've never heard of.

Anyone know what is going on here?
Posted By: Mr.Yuck

Re: weird cylinder heads on 440... spark plug won't fit?!?? - 11/10/11 02:16 PM


Casting Number Engine CID Year Intake Exhaust
4021051 360 1977-86 1.88 1.60
1737637 361 1958-59 1.94 1.60
1944705 361 1958-59 1.94 1.60
1737637 383 1960 1.94 1.60
2206324 361/383/413 1961-62 2.08 1.60
2206924 361/383/413 1961-62 2.08 1.60
2463200 361/383/413 1963 2.08 1.60
2406516 361/383/413/426 1964-67 2.08 1.60
2408520 413 1964 2.08 1.60
2402557 413 - 300J 1963 2.08 1.74
2402286 413/426 Max Wedge 1962-63 2.08 1.88
2463209 426 Max Wedge 1963 2.08 1.88
2406518 426 Max Wedge 1964 2.08 1.88
2406158 383/440 1967 2.08 1.60
2780915 383/440 1967 2.08 1.60
2780915 440HP 1967 2.08 1.74
2843906 383/440 1968-70 2.08 1.74
2951250 440 1968 2.08 1.74
3462346 383/400/440 1971-72 2.08 1.74
3462346 400/440 1973 2.08 1.74
3751213 400/440 Motor Home 1973 2.08 1.74
3769902 400/440 1974 2.08 1.74
3769975 400/440 1975 2.08 1.74
4006452 400/440 1976-78 2.08 1.74
Posted By: Dean_Kuzluzski

Re: weird cylinder heads on 440... spark plug won't fit?!?? - 11/10/11 02:20 PM

Fill the hole with a cottonball.
Take a diegrinder to that lump.
Pull cottonball.
Blow out cylinder with high pressure airhose.
Test fit sparkplug.
Repeat as necessary.
Posted By: JohnRR

Re: weird cylinder heads on 440... spark plug won't fit?!?? - 11/10/11 02:25 PM

Probably because he is using the wrong plugs , that looks a later 452 Police/motorhome head and it takes the 5/8" hex tapered seat plug, I used an AR24 autolite.
Posted By: dem440c

Re: weird cylinder heads on 440... spark plug won't fit?!?? - 11/10/11 02:51 PM

Quote:

Probably because he is using the wrong plugs , that looks a later 452 , Police/motorhome head and it takes the 5/8" hex tapered seat plug , I used an AR24 autolite.



huh? I've had many sets of 452 heads and none had this goofy nub that prevented me from using normal spark plugs. And they all had the casting number 452 on them. Does anybody know what is the significance of this casting number?
Posted By: 1_WILD_RT

Re: weird cylinder heads on 440... spark plug won't fit?!?? - 11/10/11 03:00 PM

As John said Motor Home head, not all motor homes got it, it has a water passage around the plug.. Die grinder would be a bad idea...If you look you can clearly see it uses a tapered seat plug not a gasket type plug...
Posted By: JohnRR

Re: weird cylinder heads on 440... spark plug won't fit?!?? - 11/10/11 03:00 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Probably because he is using the wrong plugs , that looks a later 452 , Police/motorhome head and it takes the 5/8" hex tapered seat plug , I used an AR24 autolite.



huh? I've had many sets of 452 heads and none had this goofy nub that prevented me from using normal spark plugs. And they all had the casting number 452 on them. Does anybody know what is the significance of this casting number?



So if this is the case then he has an NOS head that has NEVER been installed and run, ???

What plug is he trying to install? What plugs did you use?

There are 2 flavors of 452's , one uses the flat set 13/16" hex plug like an autolite 85, then there is the peanut plug head that uses the tapered seat plug with no gasket, this head has the extra cooling passages on either side of the plug that allow water flow across the back of the chamber. The later blocks that had these heads also have holes in the deck. The 440 I did for another member uses these heads and the block that was used also had the holes in the deck saving me from having to add them.

I had a hard time finding the proper plug for the peanut plug heads as none of the parts book I looked in at many parts stores listed it.
Posted By: dem440c

Re: weird cylinder heads on 440... spark plug won't fit?!?? - 11/10/11 03:15 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Probably because he is using the wrong plugs , that looks a later 452 , Police/motorhome head and it takes the 5/8" hex tapered seat plug , I used an AR24 autolite.



huh? I've had many sets of 452 heads and none had this goofy nub that prevented me from using normal spark plugs. And they all had the casting number 452 on them. Does anybody know what is the significance of this casting number?



So if this is the case then he has an NOS head that has NEVER been installed and run, ???

what plug is he trying to install? What plugs did you use?

There are 2 flavors of 452's , one uses the flat set 13/16" hex plug , like and autolite 85 , then there is the peanut plug head that uses the tapered seat plug with no gasket, this head has the extra cooling passages on either side of the plug that allow water flow across the back of the chamber. The later blocks that had these heads also have holes in the deck. The 440 I did for another member uses these heads and the block that was used also had the holes in the deck saving me from having to add them.

I had a hard time finding the proper plug for the peanut plug heads as none of the parts book I looked in at many parts stores listed it.



wow, I'm learning something here. I thought the heads with the extra cooling passages were the 213 heads, I still am baffled by the casting number he found on these. I have a couple of the industrial 413's with the giant water pump and all that stuff stashed in the pile out back, maybe I'll dig them out and look closer for this deal here.

The story on this was that this friend of mine (Chevy guy making a foray into the Mopar world) bought someone's unfinished Charger project from Craigslist or something like that, and the guy he bought it from had some health issue and has since departed. So talking to whoever put this together to find out what's going on is not an option, we won't be able to learn what the history of this engine is by any method other than deciphering the clues in front of us. That means casting numbers and measurements only. He lives a few hours away and I've never laid my eyes on this engine, I guess I'll have to go out there some weekend and see what I can see. Weird.

Isn't this the way it always goes? You put a Mopar in a Chevy guy's hands and calamity ensues, every time.
Posted By: JohnRR

Re: weird cylinder heads on 440... spark plug won't fit?!?? - 11/10/11 03:20 PM

Save yourself the trip and tell him to go to the parts store, like a napa , and get one autolite 24. This 452 head is not like the industrial head that has the waterpump bolted to it . The way to identify it is to look at the front of the driver side head next to the freeze plug hole it I think has two l's cast into it , I think the flat seat plug head has only one.
Posted By: dem440c

Re: weird cylinder heads on 440... spark plug won't fit?!?? - 11/10/11 03:33 PM

lol I'll make the trip, I've got to see this for myself and I want to see what I can learn about the block too.... after all, at this point the whole thing is suspect. It sounds like it darn sure isn't supposed to be between the fenders of a 69 Charger. I'll pass along your advice and have him try the Autolite AR24's but I have to know more about what is going on here.

Couple of questions:

- what is the history of these heads, what applications were they intended for?

- Why would they need to design a head that uses a funky spark plug?

- what's with the funky casting number 7579007 that appears nowhere on the internet or in any chart I've ever seen?

- is this 007 head basically like any 452 as far as combustion chamber, ports, valve size, etc.?
Posted By: Mr.Yuck

Re: weird cylinder heads on 440... spark plug won't fit?!?? - 11/10/11 03:48 PM

I'm guessing he didn't read the right casting number.

Attached picture 6912442-mopp_060800_hed_12_z+performance_mopar_cylinder_heads+casting_numbers.jpg
Posted By: dem440c

Re: weird cylinder heads on 440... spark plug won't fit?!?? - 11/10/11 03:52 PM

always a possibility... all the more reason for me to investigate in person. You know how these Chevy guys are ....
Posted By: HotRodDave

Re: weird cylinder heads on 440... spark plug won't fit?!?? - 11/10/11 04:53 PM

Quote:

I'm guessing he didn't read the right casting number.



Looks like he read the numbers up-side down
Posted By: dogdays

Re: weird cylinder heads on 440... spark plug won't fit?!?? - 11/10/11 05:13 PM

Turn the number he read upside down and it is indeed a 452 head.

So there are now THREE 452 heads! There's the original 452 with no mark on the front of the head. Then, the story goes, MOPAR engineers changed the 452 head to have more port wall thickness. That head has a "1" cast onto the front of it and back in the day it was found to be better for porting than a regular 452. The bigblock was already known to be phased out so instead of creating another casting number they used the same one with the extra identifying mark.
Now John has pretty thoroughly described another variant of the 452 and my guess is that they were still selling 440s for motorhomes and ran out of the 213 head or whatever thay had been using, so they made another modification to the 452 casting and gave it "11" marks on the ends to identify it.
I bet your friend's heads have a really late casting date.

R.

PS: To further mess things up, not all 213 heads used peanut plugs or had the extra cooling holes. I have a pair that came off a Newport and they use regular 3/8" gasketed plugs and have no extra holes.
Posted By: JohnRR

Re: weird cylinder heads on 440... spark plug won't fit?!?? - 11/10/11 05:15 PM

Quote:

lol I'll make the trip, I've got to see this for myself and I want to see what I can learn about the block too.... after all, at this point the whole thing is suspect. It sounds like it darn sure isn't supposed to be between the fenders of a 69 Charger. I'll pass along your advice and have him try the Autolite AR24's but I have to know more about what is going on here.

Couple of questions:

- what is the history of these heads, what applications were they intended for? Police and Motor home

- Why would they need to design a head that uses a funky spark plug?
to gain the clearance for the added cooling passages , your guess is as good as mine

- what's with the funky casting number 7579007 that appears nowhere on the internet or in any chart I've ever seen? as stated above he read it upside down and not clearly either.

- is this 007 head basically like any 452 as far as combustion chamber, ports, valve size, etc.? see above



As far as it not being the right engine in a 69 charger , was he lead to believe the car still had it's original motor? Is the car an R/T ???

The AR plug is an Autolite Racing plug , a stand plug will not have the AR in front of the number.
Posted By: 6PACMAC

Re: weird cylinder heads on 440... spark plug won't fit?!?? - 11/11/11 02:19 AM

Quote:

Probably because he is using the wrong plugs , that looks a later 452 Police/motorhome head and it takes the 5/8" hex tapered seat plug, I used an AR24 autolite.

My 77' Winnebago has heads like that.
Posted By: scratchnfotraction

Re: weird cylinder heads on 440... spark plug won't fit?!?? - 11/11/11 02:39 AM

my 77 MH 440 uses a 5/8 hex,tapperd seat,no washer,peanut plug,
autolight 23

I will be looking for those casting marks on mine to see what they have,I did see some kind roll pin/plug deal on the end of the head but never paid it any attention

looks to me a autolite 23 will screw right in

gotta go look at mine now cant wait till morning
Posted By: scratchnfotraction

Re: weird cylinder heads on 440... spark plug won't fit?!?? - 11/11/11 03:28 AM

I looked at mine and I "think" it might have a small nub like in the pic below the plug.

the end of the head has a machined flat with the small core plug boss,it also has a threded set screw in the machined flat,looks to be about a 1/4-20 size. not sure what thats for

I see no other markings cast into the end of the head though.

I will pull the plug to confirm it has that nub under the plug

I didnt know a 452 head also used a 13/16 plug with a flat washer either.
Posted By: joedust451

Re: weird cylinder heads on 440... spark plug won't fit?!?? - 11/11/11 03:30 AM

They take the peanut plugs like on the chebbys.

Ok, it just accured to me (but i could be wrong), has anyone looked over there peanut plug 400/440 heads to see if they have these nipples, I'm starting to thing "maybe" they put them there so people would not try to install the old 13/16 plug & have it blow out, its just a thought, but it could be a steam passage.

Posted By: joedust451

Re: weird cylinder heads on 440... spark plug won't fit?!?? - 11/11/11 03:32 AM

Quote:

I looked at mine and I "think" it might have a small nub like in the pic below the plug.

the end of the head has a machined flat with the small core plug boss,it also has a threded set screw in the machined flat,looks to be about a 1/4-20 size. not sure what thats for

I see no other markings cast into the end of the head though.

I will pull the plug to confirm it has that nub under the plug

I didnt know a 452 head also used a 13/16 plug with a flat washer either.



The earlier ones did, I think by 75-76 all the 440s came with the 5/8 peanut plugs till the end of production.
Posted By: Robbins

Re: weird cylinder heads on 440... spark plug won't fit?!?? - 11/11/11 04:27 AM

I have a set of these heads and they are 452... This pix of the peanut style head.....

Attached picture 6913494-IMG_7152.JPG
Posted By: Robbins

Re: weird cylinder heads on 440... spark plug won't fit?!?? - 11/11/11 04:28 AM

Here is the other one with regular style plugs...

Attached picture 6913496-IMG_7153.JPG
Posted By: JohnRR

Re: weird cylinder heads on 440... spark plug won't fit?!?? - 11/11/11 02:57 PM

Quote:

my 77 MH 440 uses a 5/8 hex,tapperd seat,no washer,peanut plug,
autolight 23


looks to me a autolite 23 will screw right in





23, 24 25 , all the same plug , just different heat range .
Posted By: JohnRR

Re: weird cylinder heads on 440... spark plug won't fit?!?? - 11/11/11 03:03 PM

Quote:

They take the peanut plugs like on the chebbys.

Ok, it just accured to me (but i could be wrong), has anyone looked over there peanut plug 400/440 heads to see if they have these nipples, I'm starting to thing "maybe" they put them there so people would not try to install the old 13/16 plug & have it blow out, its just a thought, but it could be a steam passage.





Never thought of it like that , I thought the thread size of the plug was different but I guess all the plugs are 14mm , except for some fords tha twere 18mm.

Lee , thanks for putting up those pictures , I thought there was a marking that was different between the 2 as an identifier?

scratchy , that plug is 1/8-27NPT , one of the heads I had had that same plug , the other head was NOS. I got them from Paul Rossi back in the 80's , they had big valves and were ported some.
Posted By: dem440c

Re: weird cylinder heads on 440... spark plug won't fit?!?? - 11/11/11 04:55 PM

Quote:



The earlier ones did, I think by 75-76 all the 440s came with the 5/8 peanut plugs till the end of production.



that would be news to me... I've had several sets of late 70's 452 car heads and never saw this before. I have a 78 440 sitting between the fenders of a 67 NYer in my yard right now, I'll go down and look but I've had that engine in the car for 7 years and it takes the same big 13/16 Champion 12's spark plugs as every other big block I've dealt with. I also had a 77 400 in my truck for about 50k miles, changed the plugs in it more than ones during that time. Both of those engines came from C body cars and I have every reason to believe they were in factory condition when I got them. I have several other 76-78 400's and 440's down in the parts pile, maybe I should do an audit and look for this weirdness.....
Posted By: buildanother

Re: weird cylinder heads on 440... spark plug won't fit?!?? - 11/11/11 05:13 PM

Leave it to mopar to change things up a bit. They also had some freak 18 mm plug small block heads, motorhome possibly.
Posted By: scratchnfotraction

Re: weird cylinder heads on 440... spark plug won't fit?!?? - 11/11/11 05:39 PM

scratchy , that plug is 1/8-27NPT , one of the heads I had had that same plug , the other head was NOS. I got them from Paul Rossi back in the 80's , they had big valves and were ported some.



any idea what the plug is there for????

I will try an AR24 plug,didnt know they had a race plug,may be good with the mallory duel points dist I have for mine

looking in the daylight now,I see only the driver side head has the 1/8" plug. and the end core plugs are smaller than what is in the pics posted by Lee.

they have a bigger machined boss area where the 1/8" plug is. both my heads have the bigger machined boss area but only one plug.

I think one could tell the diff in the two 452 castings by the size of the end core plug like was mentioned about the 1 and 2 marks cast on the ends

I would think the peanut plug with extra cooling ports would be more of a MH/HD/truck thing and why some guys have not run across it on all the yrs of working on muscle cars.

now that they have been out of production since 78(80 in the MH/HD chassis) it is showing up more and more as they get saved and transplanted into other projects. and we see just how much odd things/changes come down the line.

again showing "never say never with Ma Mopar"
Posted By: 73rrak

Re: weird cylinder heads on 440... spark plug won't fit?!?? - 11/11/11 07:24 PM

The 440 in my Roadrunner uses the peanut plugs. It's out of a 78 Motorhome with 452 heads
Posted By: joedust451

Re: weird cylinder heads on 440... spark plug won't fit?!?? - 11/12/11 01:08 AM

If someone has a junk 452 head with the peanut plugs & that boss, may want to take a bit & grind it down just to msee if there is a jacket under it.
Posted By: joedust451

Re: weird cylinder heads on 440... spark plug won't fit?!?? - 11/12/11 01:16 AM

Quote:

Quote:



The earlier ones did, I think by 75-76 all the 440s came with the 5/8 peanut plugs till the end of production.



that would be news to me... I've had several sets of late 70's 452 car heads and never saw this before. I have a 78 440 sitting between the fenders of a 67 NYer in my yard right now, I'll go down and look but I've had that engine in the car for 7 years and it takes the same big 13/16 Champion 12's spark plugs as every other big block I've dealt with. I also had a 77 400 in my truck for about 50k miles, changed the plugs in it more than ones during that time. Both of those engines came from C body cars and I have every reason to believe they were in factory condition when I got them. I have several other 76-78 400's and 440's down in the parts pile, maybe I should do an audit and look for this weirdness.....



Like i said I "think", but in an earlier post it was shown there were 2 452s, one with the peanuts & one with the earlier style 13/16".
Posted By: GTXX

Re: weird cylinder heads on 440... spark plug won't fit?!?? - 11/12/11 03:06 AM

Quote:

Quote:

I'm guessing he didn't read the right casting number.



Looks like he read the numbers up-side down



wonder if it has a 710 cap in the left valve cover?
Posted By: daniel_depetro

Re: weird cylinder heads on 440... spark plug won't fit?!?? - 11/12/11 04:50 AM

Quote:

wonder if it has a 710 cap in the left valve cover?


Posted By: joewhite440

Re: weird cylinder heads on 440... spark plug won't fit?!?? - 11/12/11 04:57 AM

Quote:

Quote:

I'm guessing he didn't read the right casting number.



Looks like he read the numbers up-side down



I agree! A quick look or bad lighting would be an easy mistake! Just look at the picture of the head with number above!
Posted By: Robbins

Re: weird cylinder heads on 440... spark plug won't fit?!?? - 11/12/11 06:23 AM

Quote:

Lee , thanks for putting up those pictures , I thought there was a marking that was different between the 2 as an identifier?



I've should of stated that both are 452 heads that I posted pix of. The heads with the big plug came from a 77 400....doesn't mean that they didn't get switched out though.
Posted By: 2boltmain

Re: weird cylinder heads on 440... spark plug won't fit?!?? - 11/12/11 07:50 PM

I HATE IT when people need glasses but ignore it. That was an excellent call that whoever read the #s read them upside down. Corrective lenses will fix that.
Posted By: 340SHORTY

Re: weird cylinder heads on 440... spark plug won't fit?!?? - 11/12/11 09:41 PM

Quote:

I HATE IT when people need glasses but ignore it. That was an excellent call that whoever read the #s read them upside down. Corrective lenses will fix that.



Remember the owner of these heads is a Chevy chump.. = no brains
Posted By: racincuda

Re: weird cylinder heads on 440... spark plug won't fit?!?? - 11/13/11 02:49 AM

What plugs did he take out of it ?
Posted By: dartman366

Re: weird cylinder heads on 440... spark plug won't fit?!?? - 11/13/11 04:13 AM

my old 76 winebago had the small taper seat plug's.
Posted By: cornet684me

Re: weird cylinder heads on 440... spark plug won't fit?!?? - 11/13/11 06:33 AM

i have a '73 440 motor home motor with same heads, i use the autolite AP 26 plugs

Posted By: dem440c

Re: weird cylinder heads on 440... spark plug won't fit?!?? - 11/14/11 05:20 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I HATE IT when people need glasses but ignore it. That was an excellent call that whoever read the #s read them upside down. Corrective lenses will fix that.



Remember the owner of these heads is a Chevy chump.. = no brains



lol well, in many cases I would agree but in this instance we should give him some credit.... he bought an SRT8 Charger and liked it so much he decided to jump in with both feet and restore a 440 Charger, so at least there's hope for the man!
Posted By: '72CudaRacer

Re: weird cylinder heads on 440... spark plug won't fit?!?? - 11/16/11 07:03 AM

I have a set of those 452 heads with the tapered seat plugs. They also have the little dimple below the plugs. Mine were bought as bare castings over the counter about 1992/1993. They were then sent to a machine shop and had bronze valve guide "sleeves" installed and Mopar Performance valves (2.14" & 1.88"), comp cams valve springs, locks & retainers, and had "some" port work done. Nice thing about them was the smaller plugs helped the plug wire clear the 2" Hooker headers with out burning the wire ends. Not to mention none of the bolt holes were worn out, stripped out or rusted out.
The bad thing, I was in Indy in 1995 at the Mopar Nationals, and on the last time run sat, blew the center out of a Champion spark plug. No problem, we're surrounded by mopar people, right? Yeah right. Everyone I ask looked at me like I had two heads. Finally went to K-mart and found a set of Bosch Platinums for about $20. (remeber, this was 1995!) Never went racing with out a spare set of plugs again. Those heads pick my car up by .2/sec over stock 906's.

Brian Dunnigan
Posted By: 446acuda

Re: weird cylinder heads on 440... spark plug won't fit?!?? - 11/16/11 03:42 PM

440-3 engines always seem to have the tapered seat plug and could be either a 213 head or a 452 head depending on year.
Posted By: DPelletier

Re: weird cylinder heads on 440... spark plug won't fit?!?? - 11/16/11 08:05 PM

Quote:

If someone has a junk 452 head with the peanut plugs & that boss, may want to take a bit & grind it down just to msee if there is a jacket under it.



Why not just use the right plug and leave it at that?


Dave
Posted By: JohnRR

Re: weird cylinder heads on 440... spark plug won't fit?!?? - 11/16/11 09:15 PM

Quote:

Quote:

If someone has a junk 452 head with the peanut plugs & that boss, may want to take a bit & grind it down just to msee if there is a jacket under it.



Why not just use the right plug and leave it at that?


Dave



That would only make sense ...
Posted By: joedust451

Re: weird cylinder heads on 440... spark plug won't fit?!?? - 11/17/11 01:15 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

If someone has a junk 452 head with the peanut plugs & that boss, may want to take a bit & grind it down just to msee if there is a jacket under it.



Why not just use the right plug and leave it at that?


Dave



That would only make sense ...



And alot of the times the big 3 didn't make sense
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