better handling

Posted By: moparpollack

better handling - 10/24/11 05:33 PM

What would be the better set up for handling on a 70 Dart?

1 1.03 t-bars with sway bars front and rear, kyb shocks, stock rear springs.

2 Stock t-bars with sway bars front and rear, kyb shocks, stock rear springs.

Both set ups would be run with 17" wheels 225/45/17 tires.

Thanks!

Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: better handling - 10/24/11 05:43 PM

Quote:

What would be the better set up for handling on a 70 Dart?

1 1.03 t-bars with sway bars front and rear, kyb shocks, stock rear springs.

2 Stock t-bars with sway bars front and rear, kyb shocks, stock rear springs.

Both set ups would be run with 17" wheels 225/45/17 tires.

Thanks!

#1 but it will be a rougher ride.

Upgrading to Hotchkis Bilstein shock would be a big improvement over KYB's too. But if you are doing other suspension work (bushing, ball joints) the T-bars aren't much more time and labor. You can go back and upgrade the shocks later and it's an easy install.

Close call between T-bars (~$250 more) and Bilsteins ($400-$150 for KYB's more). But I'd go with the T-bars.

Posted By: Daty Rogers

Re: better handling - 10/24/11 06:48 PM

kyb shocks suck. I switched to the eldebrock shocks, they work much better, .99 tbars, ff swaybar, hd rear springs.

-Daty

Posted By: moparpollack

Re: better handling - 10/24/11 08:48 PM

Quote:

Quote:

What would be the better set up for handling on a 70 Dart?

1 1.03 t-bars with sway bars front and rear, kyb shocks, stock rear springs.

2 Stock t-bars with sway bars front and rear, kyb shocks, stock rear springs.

Both set ups would be run with 17" wheels 225/45/17 tires.

Thanks!

#1 but it will be a rougher ride.

Upgrading to Hotchkis Bilstein shock would be a big improvement over KYB's too. But if you are doing other suspension work (bushing, ball joints) the T-bars aren't much more time and labor. You can go back and upgrade the shocks later and it's an easy install.

Close call between T-bars (~$250 more) and Bilsteins ($400-$150 for KYB's more). But I'd go with the T-bars.

I already have the shocks I was thinking that the bars would be more headache than cure. The reason I ask this is matching the spring rates so the car works. Hotchkiss leaves the t-bars out of their package so I was thinking a higher rate wasn't as important as to having matched stock rates.

Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: better handling - 10/24/11 09:40 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

What would be the better set up for handling on a 70 Dart?

1 1.03 t-bars with sway bars front and rear, kyb shocks, stock rear springs.

2 Stock t-bars with sway bars front and rear, kyb shocks, stock rear springs.

Both set ups would be run with 17" wheels 225/45/17 tires.

Thanks!

#1 but it will be a rougher ride.

Upgrading to Hotchkis Bilstein shock would be a big improvement over KYB's too. But if you are doing other suspension work (bushing, ball joints) the T-bars aren't much more time and labor. You can go back and upgrade the shocks later and it's an easy install.

Close call between T-bars (~$250 more) and Bilsteins ($400-$150 for KYB's more). But I'd go with the T-bars.

I already have the shocks I was thinking that the bars would be more headache than cure. The reason I ask this is matching the spring rates so the car works. Hotchkiss leaves the t-bars out of their package so I was thinking a higher rate wasn't as important as to having matched stock rates.

They now sell T-bars. I don't think they put them in the kit because of cost and buyer preference. There test cars (Yellow T/A, Blue RR) all have .99 or bigger T-bars.

The adjustable rear sway bar that Hotchkis and Helwig sells will allow you fine tuning of the front a rear balance.

Posted By: Viol8r

Re: better handling - 10/24/11 09:49 PM

Torsion bar needs will widely vary based on balance of the car, BB, SB, A-body, B-body, etc. The 1.03 are a good all around rate as it matches up to the compression and rebound settings of the Bilstein shock they offer. You go to a bigger bar you run the risk of over working the shock and hurting it.

At that point, as we do on our car which has 1.12 bars in it, you must consider going to more race type adjustable mono-tube shock.

Posted By: Anonymous

Post deleted by moparts - 10/24/11 09:55 PM

Posted By: MoparMarq

Re: better handling - 10/24/11 10:01 PM

Quote:

you want better handling? take your hands off the beer, and put em both on the wheel. just an idea

You registered just today and that's the most constructive advice you have to offer?

Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: better handling - 10/24/11 10:10 PM

Quote:

Torsion bar needs will widely vary based on balance of the car, BB, SB, A-body, B-body, etc. The 1.03 are a good all around rate as it matches up to the compression and rebound settings of the Bilstein shock they offer. You go to a bigger bar you run the risk of over working the shock and hurting it.

At that point, as we do on our car which has 1.12 bars in it, you must consider going to more race type adjustable mono-tube shock.

I run Bilsteins with 1.14 T-bars in an A-body (higher rate than B-body). Seem to be fine track and street.

More shock control that KYB's with .99's.

Posted By: jcc

Re: better handling - 10/25/11 03:09 AM

Quote:

I already have the shocks I was thinking that the bars would be more headache than cure.

1. Throw the KYB's away
2. Make sure the garbage man takes them away
3. nothing the others have posted is wrong and all will help, but not as much #1 above.
4. Unless you have numbers on yoour doors on weekends, you are likely over thinking this, but you'll soon discover this on your own.

Posted By: MarkZ

Re: better handling - 10/26/11 02:27 AM

Have you installed frame ties? I went though upgrading shocks, springs, and sway bars, and the biggest difference is when I welded ties in. Night and day...

Posted By: jcc

Re: better handling - 10/26/11 02:41 AM

Quote:

Have you installed frame ties? I went though upgrading shocks, springs, and sway bars, and the biggest difference is when I welded ties in. Night and day...

However, could it have been "day and night"?

I mean, if one installed "welded ties" first, the difference noticed without upgraded shocks, springs, and sway bars might not have been very significant.

Posted By: lahatte

Re: better handling - 10/26/11 02:43 AM

Those Hotchkis kits are pretty pricey. Is there a good source for them at a better price?

Posted By: Montclaire

Re: better handling - 10/26/11 02:18 PM

Have you ever heard of the Green Brick? Might want to check it out.

Posted By: Hotchkis

Re: better handling - 10/26/11 05:34 PM

Quote:

I already have the shocks I was thinking that the bars would be more headache than cure. The reason I ask this is matching the spring rates so the car works. Hotchkis leaves the t-bars out of their package so I was thinking a higher rate wasn't as important as to having matched stock rates.

MoparPollack - We leave the torsion bars out of the TVS because we know that not everyone wants or needs to replace their T-bars. Plus we sell all the parts in the TVS separately. With that said, the TVS kit is a great kit with some big gains over the typical stock suspension.

If you're starting from scratch on a Dodge Dart you should start with leaf springs and T-bars. Then upgrade shocks and sway bars. Some weld-in subframe connectors are also a big help over stock. You never realize how flexible the car is until you have a set of weld-in connectors. They are much better than bolt-in connectors, especially if you drive your car hard.

Posted By: moparpollack

Re: better handling - 10/26/11 05:50 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I already have the shocks I was thinking that the bars would be more headache than cure. The reason I ask this is matching the spring rates so the car works. Hotchkis leaves the t-bars out of their package so I was thinking a higher rate wasn't as important as to having matched stock rates.

MoparPollack - We leave the torsion bars out of the TVS because we know that not everyone wants or needs to replace their T-bars. Plus we sell all the parts in the TVS separately. With that said, the TVS kit is a great kit with some big gains over the typical stock suspension.

If you're starting from scratch on a Dodge Dart you should start with leaf springs and T-bars. Then upgrade shocks and sway bars. Some weld-in subframe connectors are also a big help over stock. You never realize how flexible the car is until you have a set of weld-in connectors. They are much better than bolt-in connectors, especially if you drive your car hard.

I looked at it this way:

1 Springs/torsion bars are matched from the factory.

2 Matched sway bars would work better with matched factory springs.

3 Messing with one end before the other would make it worse.

4 The car already has frame connectors makes it much more ridgid.

5 Was confused why the torsion bars were left out as if a high rate spring was really needed.

Posted By: Challenger 1

Re: better handling - 10/26/11 06:17 PM

IMO frame connectors should be #1, they do make a huge difference.

Posted By: moparpollack

Re: better handling - 10/26/11 06:21 PM

That's why I did it first.

Posted By: TC@HP2

Re: better handling - 10/26/11 08:28 PM

Quote:

I looked at it this way:

1 Springs/torsion bars are matched from the factory.

2 Matched sway bars would work better with matched factory springs.

3 Messing with one end before the other would make it worse.

4 The car already has frame connectors makes it much more ridgid.

5 Was confused why the torsion bars were left out as if a high rate spring was really needed.

Wellllll, the factory rates are somewhat matched, but not from a performance handling perspective so much as a cost, comfort, safety perspective. The factory set these cars up to understeer like a pig because when an inexperienced driver gets in over their head and the car is sliding, they step on the brakes to slow everything down and regain control. Additionally, what was percieved as comfort and performace from a suspension system 40 years ago has changed compared to those same consumer evaluations today.

You are right about messing with one end before the other. Stepping up the wheel rates at one end too much will cause that end to slide first. Too much front t-bar/s-bar, the nose pushes. Too much rear leaf spring/s-bar, the rear slides.

For setting up an A body, I'd do whatever autoxcuda says. His car is more dialed in than the average bear's.

Posted By: Rick_Ehrenberg

Re: better handling - 10/27/11 12:15 AM

Lots of good advice already!

Bigger T-bars would be high on the list. Remember, if it bottoms, spring rate goes to infinity...massive understeer.

Some kind of zero-flex front swaybar links are really a great upgrade -- unreal how much they help 'turn-in'.

Frame connex / torque boxes also rate high.

KYBs, as mentioned, are in the $9.99 'Monro-Matic' league. Bilsteins are excellent, but my personal preference is still the classic Koni adjustables. While no longer sold in the US, you might find 'em down under; my last set came from France.

Be sure any rear swaybar is frame, not axle, hung. If not adjustable, start small -- with a light engine, it is amazing how easy it is to make an A-body into a Corvair / early Porsche!

While more "steering" than "suspension", K-member reinforcements help, or FFI's new bolt-in lower pitman support bearing kit (designed by....;-> ). Also consider Pedders urethane offset upper control arm bushings (also Aussie).

Rick

Posted By: Hotchkis

Re: better handling - 10/27/11 06:26 PM

Quote:

Wellllll, the factory rates are somewhat matched, but not from a performance handling perspective so much as a cost, comfort, safety perspective. The factory set these cars up to understeer like a pig because when an inexperienced driver gets in over their head and the car is sliding, they step on the brakes to slow everything down and regain control. Additionally, what was percieved as comfort and performace from a suspension system 40 years ago has changed compared to those same consumer evaluations today.

You are right about messing with one end before the other. Stepping up the wheel rates at one end too much will cause that end to slide first. Too much front t-bar/s-bar, the nose pushes. Too much rear leaf spring/s-bar, the rear slides.

For setting up an A body, I'd do whatever autoxcuda says. His car is more dialed in than the average bear's.

TC@HP2 � You�re right, autoXcuda does have his car well dialed in.