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T-56 or a 5 speed?
Posted By: Fuller
T-56 or a 5 speed? - 10/11/11 05:48 AM
I am at the point now of replacing the floors so I thought it would be a good time to decide what transmission I will be placing in. I really like the fact of having a 0.50 gear ratio that way I can place a dana 60 4.10 in the rear and cruse at low rpms on the highway. I was wondering what you guys think and if you would prefer the 5 speed or the 6 speed. The floors all need to be replaced and trans tunnel so that is no biggy.
Posted By: G_T
Re: T-56 or a 5 speed? - 10/11/11 05:52 AM
I think the 5 speed will be a significantly easier swap. The T-56 is going to require you to cut and make a custom trans cross member. It is significantly larger transmission.
All that said - I'd go with a T-56... but i'm biased
Posted By: Fuller
Re: T-56 or a 5 speed? - 10/11/11 05:55 AM
Yeah I can tell haha but are you glad that you went with the 6 speed. I have to replace the tunnel anyways so either way I have to put the tunnel back together again. How did you go about finding where you wanted the trans to set and angle it sat at?
Posted By: OzHemi
Re: T-56 or a 5 speed? - 10/11/11 06:12 AM
I went with a T56 in my car too (non-Mopar though
)
If you have to remake stuff anyways, I don't see why not have the advantage of the extra gear
And I just set the engine and trans angle the same it was as the donor car basically...
I had this same debate over a year ago ultimately i went 5 speed with a.64 overdrive. I have 3.91s out back and im running a 28 inch tire putting me at 2100 at highway speed (70mph) with a t56 thats 1600 with 4.10s the 5 speed would put me at 2200 with a t56 speed thats just over 1700. My car runs ok at 1700 but my cam doesnt really start in its curve til around 2200 or so, that being said dropping to an even lower rpm then i am currently would result in a bog feeling on the highway. The t56 is nice i wont deny that however with all the extra fabrication and modifications to suspension components (torsion bars and crossmember) it takes to put one in a classic mopar and as above mentioned depending on cam specs etc i found it to be an easy choice for the 5 speed in my vehicle.
Posted By: DaytonaTurbo
Re: T-56 or a 5 speed? - 10/11/11 07:43 AM
I've been thinking about a t56 too. Just wondering how much power a t56 out of a mid 2000's GM will take. I know if you cough up the cash there's a gun on ebay selling t56 magnum's for around 3k, supposed to be good to 700ft-lbs or something like that. Another option would be a tr6060 out of a challenger or newer camaro.
I probably wouldn't want to run a .50 overdrive gear without port fuel injection. A carb might not be making enough vacuum at that load/low rpm for efficient fueling.
Posted By: 70Cuda383
Re: T-56 or a 5 speed? - 10/11/11 01:34 PM
with EFI, I say go for it. but with a carb, I'd say try to keep your cruise RPM above 2000 rpm, or run a "stock" cam with no lope, that is all done power wise, by 5000.
my big block was running a cam that was 1800-6000 rpm power band. I had a TKO with the .64 OD and 3.23 gears with 28" tires.
5th gear was useless unless I was going 70mph or faster, at 65 my RPMs were down at 1700-1800, and the engine was lugging and surging. I tolerated it for a year or so because I knew the whole time that I was planning on 4.56 gears in the rear. and once I did, everything was great! tons of low end, and yet I could still cruise the highway at 2400 rpm, smooth as glass at 70mph.
the TKO will be smaller, and with the .64 OD you don't really need 6 gears. in a 1/4 mile run, you probably will NOT be shifting beyond 4th gear. I feel like you really only need 4 gears for pulling, then a 5th gear OD for cruising.
with that TKO I was running, the 4.56s, 28" tires, the top of 4th gear for me was up around 110-115 mph. I don't need more gears beyond that!
Posted By: finadk
Re: T-56 or a 5 speed? - 10/11/11 01:49 PM
I went with the T-56 for my 56 Dodge 408 Stroker. I will run it with the EZ-EFI setup.
I did a lot of research and unless you can rebuild and upgrade a GM T-56 the brand new in the box Magnum T-56 for about $2800 or so is the way to go. (a GM core will be 800-1200, and you are looking at nnother 800+ for a good rebuild and upgrade).
Yes they are BIG but the effort will be worth it.
I also have a fairly comprehensive parts list with prices for what it will take to install one to a small block. I learned that I could buy a complete kit for only a few hundred more than I could cobble it together myself.
Posted By: Fuller
Re: T-56 or a 5 speed? - 10/11/11 09:19 PM
That gave me some new insight on my pro cons for a 5 vs 6 speed. I would like to have a nice lobing cam. I will more then likely have a 4.10 rear end running 26 inch diameter tires. I know I won't get great gas mileage but I do like not winding the engine out when I am cruising down the highway. What kind of mileage do you guys get out of your 5 or 6 speeds? I know there is another forum but that is for stock 440's without overdrive.
Posted By: johnscudashop
Re: T-56 or a 5 speed? - 10/11/11 09:32 PM
Another vote for the T56 , worth the effort
Posted By: Fuller
Re: T-56 or a 5 speed? - 10/12/11 01:45 AM
Yeah...I'm leaning toward the 6-speed it has a really nice wow factor. If I ever wanted to go with a higher rear end it would be easier to deal with on the street. The thing is do they make driveshafts to use for this conversion or is it a custom kind of deal? I also heard the location of the shifter is too far off of the stock mounting hole that it can't work with the stock center console.
Posted By: DaytonaTurbo
Re: T-56 or a 5 speed? - 10/12/11 10:22 AM
Shifter will be different by a bit unless you use something like a keisler tko 5sp where they relocate the shifter to the correct position. I already decided a long time ago I didn't want a center console anymore so I sold mine to get just the bare shifter on the floor with bucket seats look.
Another issue is I've heard the tremec 5sp's don't shift so well over 6000rpm but I haven't heard this about the t56's.
Posted By: ahy
Re: T-56 or a 5 speed? - 10/12/11 11:32 AM
With a 5 speed you need to choose what to do with 5'th gear. Is it a performance gear - ie. best top speed - or is it set up for cruising. The best cruising setup will usually be too tall for max top speed. With a 6 speed, you can have both. Since its already "under the knife" I'd the 6 speed.
Posted By: 70Cuda383
Re: T-56 or a 5 speed? - 10/12/11 12:56 PM
Quote:
That gave me some new insight on my pro cons for a 5 vs 6 speed. I would like to have a nice lobing cam. I will more then likely have a 4.10 rear end running 26 inch diameter tires. I know I won't get great gas mileage but I do like not winding the engine out when I am cruising down the highway. What kind of mileage do you guys get out of your 5 or 6 speeds? I know there is another forum but that is for stock 440's without overdrive.
I was getting about 12 MPG with a 438" stroker making 535 lbs of torque. in a 4,200 lb truck with the aero of a brick, but I never did much tweaking with the carb, once we had WOT dialed in, I just ran it as-is. I only drove it maybe 1000 miles a year and beat on it hard, so I figured 12 MPG was pretty good for what it was.
Posted By: johnscudashop
Re: T-56 or a 5 speed? - 10/12/11 03:29 PM
I used a LS version of the T56 magnum, It puts the shifter a little further back. I rasied the tunnel 3 inches and wide 4 inches.
Posted By: Jerry
Re: T-56 or a 5 speed? - 10/12/11 07:06 PM
what are you guys doing for carpet when you modify the floors this much. i really can't see how the stock carpet is supposed to fit.
Posted By: johnscudashop
Re: T-56 or a 5 speed? - 10/12/11 09:43 PM
Any good interior guy here could make anything. Mine will have to be custom made. I plan on making a custom console plus my roll bar mounts.
Posted By: Fuller
Re: T-56 or a 5 speed? - 10/13/11 06:10 AM
Yeah I don't plan on using the center console really either. Where are you guys getting your drive shafts from? or are you having them custom made? I feel like I would regret not going with the 6 speed and I wouldn't miss the 5 speed lol. At first I will still use the torsion bar suspension. now can I get the 6 speed to mount without moving there locations at all and compromising structural integrity.
Posted By: finadk
Re: T-56 or a 5 speed? - 10/13/11 12:40 PM
The driveshaft will have to be custom made. Mine came as part of the kit that included the bell, clutch, flywheel, hyd bearing, bolts, etc.
I believe the yoke is a std GM size.
Posted By: finadk
Re: T-56 or a 5 speed? - 10/13/11 12:44 PM
As far as the floor, you can make a LOT of room with an acetylene torch and an 8 lb hammer. I cleared about 2" at the bellhousing just by heating and stretching the metal.
Posted By: Fuller
Re: T-56 or a 5 speed? - 10/13/11 01:13 PM
Quote:
The driveshaft will have to be custom made. Mine came as part of the kit that included the bell, clutch, flywheel, hyd bearing, bolts, etc.
I believe the yoke is a std GM size.
Where did you buy your kit through? Just looking at a few options. I have had a qoute from keilser a long time ago but i put in another qoute for a 6 speed and haven't heard back from them yet.
Posted By: 70Cuda383
Re: T-56 or a 5 speed? - 10/13/11 03:16 PM
Quote:
Quote:
The driveshaft will have to be custom made. Mine came as part of the kit that included the bell, clutch, flywheel, hyd bearing, bolts, etc.
I believe the yoke is a std GM size.
Where did you buy your kit through? Just looking at a few options. I have had a qoute from keilser a long time ago but i put in another qoute for a 6 speed and haven't heard back from them yet.
That's typical for Keisler. apparently they are doing so well and have so much business, they don't need to bother with replying to requests for quotes, or calling folks back who are trying to place an order over the phone.
I've seen kits on Ebay for T-56 or TKOs for all kinds of GM vehicles. all you'd need to do is source a mopar bell and flywheel
Posted By: finadk
Re: T-56 or a 5 speed? - 10/13/11 09:12 PM
I am hesitant to recommend the place that I bought it from because I had a LOT of problems, careless errors that should not happen for a purchase of this size. HOWEVER that being said, this vendor went above beyond to make sure that everything was sorted out and that I was satisfied. I wont say anything bad about them, but I am not at a point where I would recommend them either.
I would be happy to talk off line if you email me at scott1956 (at) Gmail (dot)com
Where did you buy your kit through? Just looking at a few options. I have had a qoute from keilser a long time ago but i put in another qoute for a 6 speed and haven't heard back from them yet.
Posted By: DaytonaTurbo
Re: T-56 or a 5 speed? - 10/13/11 10:30 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
The driveshaft will have to be custom made. Mine came as part of the kit that included the bell, clutch, flywheel, hyd bearing, bolts, etc.
I believe the yoke is a std GM size.
Where did you buy your kit through? Just looking at a few options. I have had a qoute from keilser a long time ago but i put in another qoute for a 6 speed and haven't heard back from them yet.
That's typical for Keisler. apparently they are doing so well and have so much business, they don't need to bother with replying to requests for quotes, or calling folks back who are trying to place an order over the phone.
I've seen kits on Ebay for T-56 or TKOs for all kinds of GM vehicles. all you'd need to do is source a mopar bell and flywheel
I don't understand why they don't just have pricing on their website. They must get a lot of tire kickers emailing when listing a price would make things so much simpler.
Posted By: Fuller
Re: T-56 or a 5 speed? - 10/14/11 03:16 AM
Yeah, I always found it a little ridiculous, they say it's because of market fluctuation but you still have to change the prices on the spreadsheet wether they are posted on the site or not. I have seen some deals for a t56 magnum for ~3000. It says they make a drive shaft for your application. I kind of wonder how they would get the length needed for the application.
Posted By: finadk
Re: T-56 or a 5 speed? - 10/14/11 03:16 AM
If you are going from an automatic It will be between $4700 - $5550 depending on how good you shop.
Posted By: Fuller
Re: T-56 or a 5 speed? - 10/14/11 03:30 AM
Mines already a manual. Why would the price be any different? I would imagine the only difference is with a manual you have the clutch pedal.
Posted By: DaytonaTurbo
Re: T-56 or a 5 speed? - 10/14/11 07:00 AM
Yes in this case converting from a manual or auto would be close in cost. Everything gets replaced anyway.
What are you planning on doing for a bellhousing? I've got a lakewood bell and I think it would be a fairly straightforward job to have it redrilled for the t-56 pattern.
Posted By: MuuMuu101
Re: T-56 or a 5 speed? - 10/14/11 07:06 AM
Quote:
Yes in this case converting from a manual or auto would be close in cost. Everything gets replaced anyway.
What are you planning on doing for a bellhousing? I've got a lakewood bell and I think it would be a fairly straightforward job to have it redrilled for the t-56 pattern.
How is Quicktime? They have them available through Summit:
http://www.summitracing.com/search/Brand...mp;autoview=SKU
Posted By: DaytonaTurbo
Re: T-56 or a 5 speed? - 10/14/11 07:15 AM
Just occurred to me that GM's use a shorter bellhousing/input shaft so that may make using a stock depth bell impossible. I do know quicktime does make good stuff.
Posted By: finadk
Re: T-56 or a 5 speed? - 10/14/11 01:59 PM
I used a Quicktime bell. There may be others but the T56 Magnum has a boss on the front that required a relief to the machined into the bell for clearance. I have a spare quicktime small block bell NIB that I might be ready to sell.
Posted By: 70Cuda383
Re: T-56 or a 5 speed? - 10/14/11 02:11 PM
buddy of mine has a Dakota with a T-56 and is using a quicktime bell. it made for a very clean install on his truck.
but the truck has enough room to put 2 transmissions in the tunnel, so the T-56 fit with zero sheet metal modifications.
I picked up a quicktime bell for a TKO to small block build, but won't be using it for a looong time if ever and am currently trying to sell it as well. I have it listed on a few forums...to include this one. transmission section.
they are strong, sturdy, clean pieces. SFI approved too.
Posted By: Fuller
Re: T-56 or a 5 speed? - 11/03/11 01:40 PM
I was wondering if any of you guys that have done the 6 speed conversion and used the torsion bar to bolt the crossmember on can any of you guys give me dimensions on that crossmember. I really want to go the 6 speed route just still debating on time and money. Im a little impatient with things and because of money I will have to wait another year to get the ride on the road.
Posted By: Fuller
Re: T-56 or a 5 speed? - 11/03/11 08:29 PM
bump
Posted By: dirt
Re: T-56 or a 5 speed? - 11/04/11 12:58 AM
you dont want the tr6060 from the challenger or camaro because they are set up for an independant rear suspension. there is no slip yoke only a flange, also no speedo gear, it went in the rear axle, and the shifter is mounted along with the shift rods , on top of the trans, its a major pain to make work.
you end up needing a custom driveshaft that has a slip built into it , and an adapter to fit the flange on the back of the trans. then you still need to set up a sensor for the speedo. and the shifter also bolts to the floor.
the T56 magnum is the same trans but with a tail shaft and shifter like a regular T56
Posted By: Fuller
Re: T-56 or a 5 speed? - 11/04/11 01:03 AM
Yeah I plan on buying a new t56 Magnum but I was wondering if anyone could set me dimensions of there crossmember for there cuda 6 speed conversion.
Posted By: ahy
Re: T-56 or a 5 speed? - 11/04/11 03:54 AM
Some comments on 4 speed vs 5 speed vs 6 speed:
4 speed: Best as a single purpose transmission. It can be set up for drag (high numerical gear), street (medium numerical gear) or road race (low numerical gear)
5 Speed: Decent multi-purpose transmission. Drag with 1'st 4 gears or road with 5'th. The compromise is in 5'th with a stout engine. Is 5'th set up as an ideal 75 MPH cruise gear? If so it is probably too tall for max top speed. Or is it set up for top speed and too short for ideal cruise?
6 Speed: 1-4 can handle drag, 5'th for top speed and 6'th for ideal cruise. The ideal manual transmission? The main drawback is size and tunnel/mount mods.
Posted By: DaytonaTurbo
Re: T-56 or a 5 speed? - 11/04/11 04:55 AM
Quote:
Some comments on 4 speed vs 5 speed vs 6 speed:
4 speed: Best as a single purpose transmission. It can be set up for drag (high numerical gear), street (medium numerical gear) or road race (low numerical gear)
5 Speed: Decent multi-purpose transmission. Drag with 1'st 4 gears or road with 5'th. The compromise is in 5'th with a stout engine. Is 5'th set up as an ideal 75 MPH cruise gear? If so it is probably too tall for max top speed. Or is it set up for top speed and too short for ideal cruise?
6 Speed: 1-4 can handle drag, 5'th for top speed and 6'th for ideal cruise. The ideal manual transmission? The main drawback is size and tunnel/mount mods.
The 5-sp's 5th gear isn't as numerically low as the 6sp's 6th gear. The 6sp T56's usually have a 6th gear in the .50-.57 range where the best you can get with a tremec 5sp is a .64. Doesn't sound like much, but at these ratios, a few points makes a big difference if you really want to gear it to the max.
Posted By: finadk
Re: T-56 or a 5 speed? - 11/04/11 06:31 AM
One thing that I learned is that just like a cam or converter you need to choose the gear ratios as part of the entire driveline package considering rear gears, tire diameter ect. The trouble with the .50 6th gear is that you could end up in a RPM range that is too low for highway cruising. The .50 may be ok if you have 4.11 gears but depending on your cam may not be useable with 3.23's.
The Tremec t56 magnum has a 2.66 1st with a .80 6th or 2.97 first gear with .63 6th. YOu need to figure out what is the lowest RPM your car can pull, and keep in ming that if the engine is lugging you may get worse fuel mileage than spinning it at higher RPM.
Here is a link to some info on the Camaro 6 speeds that has more info.
http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=98387Here is some info I gathered on the gear ratios for the various 4, 5 ,and 6 speed options
Trans 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th
T56 Magnum TUET11009 2.66 1.70 1.30 1.00 0.80 0.64
T56 MagnumTUET11012 2.97 2.10 1.46 1.00 0.74 0.50
Keisler T45R (350/450HP) 3.37 1.99 1.33 1.00 0.67
TKO500 3.27 1.98 1.34 1.00 0.68
TKO600 2.87 1.89 1.28 1.00 0.64
TKO600 2.87 1.89 1.28 1.00 0.82
A833OD (75-87) 3.09 1.67 1.10 0.73
A833 (A body 64-65) 3.09 1.92 1.40 1.00
A833 71-72 18 spline) 2.44 1.77 1.34 1.00
A833 (TA 71-74)) 2.47 1.77 1.34 1.00
A833 (B/RB 64-70) 2.66 1.91 1.39 1.00
Passion Performance 2.64 1.92 1.40 1.00 0.70
Posted By: 268RTs4ME
Re: T-56 or a 5 speed? - 11/04/11 06:39 AM
Richmond 6 speed and a Long Shifter.
Posted By: DaytonaTurbo
Re: T-56 or a 5 speed? - 11/04/11 07:47 AM
Quote:
YOu need to figure out what is the lowest RPM your car can pull, and keep in ming that if the engine is lugging you may get worse fuel mileage than spinning it at higher RPM.
Yup, and I hope anyone smart enough to do their own 6-sp install would have the foresight to take into consideration how low of a rpm you can really run your engine before you start dropping below your efficiency zone. Camshaft and carb type or efi will make the difference in this case. I think you would need a 4.10 or numerically higher gear with a .5x 6th gear.
Also, I believe the OEM T-56's in the gto, cadiallac cts-v and the camarobirds had a .57 6th gear ratio.
Posted By: Fuller
Re: T-56 or a 5 speed? - 11/04/11 05:51 PM
Yeah. I will have it mated up to dana 60 with a 4.10 rear end. I am looking for a decent highway cruise to go alone with that rear end.
I was just wondering if anyone has dimensions for a crossmember that someone has used.
Posted By: DennisH
Re: T-56 or a 5 speed? - 11/05/11 12:58 PM
TKO. Keisler 5 Speed. 2150 (APPROX) @ 70 MPH. 354 Dana. Just right. 69 Coronet R/T. Like having the A833 with a taller bonus gear.
Posted By: 70Cuda383
Re: T-56 or a 5 speed? - 11/05/11 02:00 PM
the TKO I had with the .64OD was too much for me with 3.21 gears, and was just right with 4.56s. with a 6th gear OD in the .5x range I'd have to have run 4.88s!!
3.21s my 5th gear was lugging at 1800 rpm at 60mph and I had to get up to about 75mph to get the engine to smooth out.
4.56s was a smooth 2400 rpm at 75 mph. perfect!
that was with a 28" tire too, so a shorter tire will help out.