Moparts
Firm Feel p/s box vs stock reman
Posted By: roe
Firm Feel p/s box vs stock reman - 10/01/11 09:30 PM
I was thinking about using one of the firmfeel units. I've read good things here about them and have decided that I would probably go with a stage 2 box with them.
My question is for anyone who has used a parts store reman. I've always had good luck with all my other parts store parts and was looking for experiences with the p/s pump. Is it way over boosted like the original I have? Or would it tighten things up a little from my 40 y/o original box? Any experiences? I dont mind paying the $300 for the firmfeel, but also dont mind saving some $$ and buying the $60 reman if it will do the job.
Posted By: ScottSmith_Harms
Re: Firm Feel p/s box vs stock reman - 10/01/11 09:49 PM
Once you drive a Firm Feel box you'll never want anything else. I drive a Stage III box and love it! It take a bit more effort than a "one finger" stock PS setup but I like it that way, better road feel is good IMO.
Call Dick Ross and tell him I sent you, he's a good guy!
Posted By: roe
Re: Firm Feel p/s box vs stock reman - 10/01/11 10:03 PM
Yeah, I want a modern sedan feel at a minimum, and was told that would be the stage 1 box. Stage 2 is supposed to be more of a "sporty" feel, and is what I would go with. Was just curious about how a stock reman feels compared to a 40 y/o original.
Posted By: PC-CHARGER
Re: Firm Feel p/s box vs stock reman - 10/01/11 10:34 PM
I have the Stage 2 in my Charger and it's much better than stock but I wouldn't say it's like a modern rack feel. Still lighter than any rack equipped car I've driven. If I were to do it again, I'd probably go for the Stage 3.
Posted By: cogen80
Re: Firm Feel p/s box vs stock reman - 10/02/11 12:56 AM
everyone i know are running the stage III and love it..
Posted By: 500Stroker
Re: Firm Feel p/s box vs stock reman - 10/02/11 01:54 AM
Another one here with FF Stage III. Go with a III you will not regret it. Don't waste you time or money on a II.
Posted By: BDW
Re: Firm Feel p/s box vs stock reman - 10/02/11 02:19 AM
No idea what the FF boxes feel like, I put a rebuilt Police box (you could still get them back then) in mine about 10yrs ago. Still works great and was a definite improvement over the stock box that had started leaking.
Not sure what I would do today, but that's $150 you could use for something else.
As far as the over-assisted feel everyone talks about, I think I'd try this before spending $300 on a FF box.
http://www.moparaction.com/tech/beep/PUMP_IT_DOWN-re-v1.4.pdf
Posted By: 1_WILD_RT
Re: Firm Feel p/s box vs stock reman - 10/02/11 03:54 AM
Quote:
Not sure what I would do today, but that's $150 you could use for something else.
There are a few things that really effect the experience of driving your car, nothing more so than the steering, it's worth spending more if it gets you more... This does...
As far as the over-assisted feel everyone talks about, I think I'd try this before spending $300 on a FF box.
There is always a right way to do something and a patch... I'd rather do it right
Posted By: Sinitro
Re: Firm Feel p/s box vs stock reman - 10/02/11 04:15 AM
Keep lookin..
The Firm Feel box may feel good but their customer service is zippo..
I bought one and it leaked, called them and talked to an arrogant person who said send it back @ my expense and they would check it out and get back to me..
Gee thanx..
While I had the car torn apart, bought another box from another supplier installed it all was well no leaks..
Bought a reseal kit and rebuilt the FF box, and sold it @ the Fling..
Many people like the Firm Feel stuff, but in my experience their product quality was marginal and customer service was horrible..
Just my $0.02..
Posted By: DennisH
Re: Firm Feel p/s box vs stock reman - 10/02/11 04:33 AM
Guess I got lucky. No problem with my Stage 1. 10 years. Next time, stage 2.
Posted By: Kern Dog
Re: Firm Feel p/s box vs stock reman - 10/02/11 05:14 AM
Do you want a kick-azz setup?
Buy the stage 3 Firm Feel box, add in the fast ratio Idler and Pitman arms AND reduce the boost pressure in the pump. I have that setup in the Charger minus the pump mods. I have the Federal unit, so mods are not as simple.
Posted By: migsBIG
Re: Firm Feel p/s box vs stock reman - 10/02/11 09:31 AM
Quote:
Another one here with FF Stage III. Go with a III you will not regret it. Don't waste you time or money on a II.
I did waste my money on a II and loved it. My car is not a corner carving hero, but the road feel and quality in ride was 3 times better then stock. After the fresh suspension gets rebuilt this week, I exspect it to perform even better.
Posted By: Rick_Ehrenberg
Re: Firm Feel p/s box vs stock reman - 10/02/11 12:48 PM
I've tried them all, and been involved with dozens, multiple times.
NOS Mopar firm feel -- sweet. Effort increase on highway maybe 50-75%.
Parts store (most are actually A-1 Cardone) - sloppy. Tighten the lash, they go numb. Lousy, period.
FFI knockoff, from place in Ohio - More effort, otherwise, see previous comment!
Genuine FFI St. 2 - Even better than NOS. Coupled with increased caster, a bit of a reduction in line pressure, 11/16" tie rods, bumpsteer blueprint, drives like a modern rack/pinion car.
Rick
Posted By: stateroadhog
Re: Firm Feel p/s box vs stock reman - 10/02/11 01:59 PM
I have stage II its great but wish I would have gotten stage III. Go with stage III you won't regret it. So how do you lower the line pressure in pump?
Posted By: babarracuda
Re: Firm Feel p/s box vs stock reman - 10/02/11 02:05 PM
I have stage 2 and it's great except like many others I would get stage 3 next time. I hate manual steering unless you never have to parallel park and stock Mopar power steering period!!!
Posted By: roe
Re: Firm Feel p/s box vs stock reman - 10/02/11 02:09 PM
Quote:
I have stage II its great but wish I would have gotten stage III. Go with stage III you won't regret it. So how do you lower the line pressure in pump?
Yeah, i was wondering the same thing. How do you lower the line pressure?
It seems Stage 3 is the way to go if I like the feel of a modern car. And I was thinking about the fast ratio arms, so it looks like they will be a go too.
Posted By: stateroadhog
Re: Firm Feel p/s box vs stock reman - 10/02/11 02:14 PM
The link in CNXT responce tells how.
Posted By: roe
Re: Firm Feel p/s box vs stock reman - 10/02/11 02:27 PM
I've tried that link a few times and it wont load for me. I'll keep trying but the internet over here is not as good as back home.
Posted By: Strawdawg
Re: Firm Feel p/s box vs stock reman - 10/02/11 02:58 PM
I really like the Firm Feel box and I got great customer service. Like many, I bought the II and probably should have bought the three for even stiffer effort, but, I am going to perform Rick's mod to lower the pump pressure and do the same thing...that way, I can dial it to where I want it.
Thanks, Rick! Mopar Action always comes thru!
Posted By: Kern Dog
Re: Firm Feel p/s box vs stock reman - 10/02/11 06:28 PM
The Mopar Action article detailed how to lower the pumps output pressure in SAGINAW pumps only. The trick there is simple. The fitting at the back of the pump where the pressure hose screws in is removeable. Pull it and you will find a spring and a thin washer. The slant six spec pumps had a thicker washer than the V8 cars, since the six cylinder cars weighed less and required less boost. The trick is to ADD more thin washers to lower the boost. Its a trial and error procedure. Add too many and the boost goes away.
Posted By: BDW
Re: Firm Feel p/s box vs stock reman - 10/02/11 06:38 PM
Anyone find a source for the 3/8" ID & 1/2" OD shims needs for this?
Posted By: 1_WILD_RT
Re: Firm Feel p/s box vs stock reman - 10/02/11 07:12 PM
Quote:
Anyone find a source for the 3/8" ID & 1/2" OD shims needs for this?
Go to Mc Master Carr & type in 3088A466
I/D O/D Quantity Part # Price
3/8" 5/8" 10 3088A466 3.99
The O/D is slightly large but that is the easiest dimension to correct..
Posted By: Lee446
Re: Firm Feel p/s box vs stock reman - 10/02/11 07:26 PM
Got the stage 2 and it is like grandma's Imperial, one finger. They talked me out of the Stage 3, should have went with my first inclination.
Posted By: BDW
Re: Firm Feel p/s box vs stock reman - 10/02/11 07:28 PM
Might be easier to open up ID by .020"?
McCaster #99432A433 or
http://www.smallparts.com/shoulder-lengt...o_pf_B004K1FFVOHard to believe there's no off-the-shelf part.
Posted By: BDW
Re: Firm Feel p/s box vs stock reman - 10/02/11 07:42 PM
Best I could find, direct fit, but you need 3 per (0.020" each).
I guess that could be good, you can fine tune it.
Someone send me 4 for finding them.
http://www.amazon.com/Precision-Washer-Bearing-Spacing-Stainless/dp/B004K1FFIC
Posted By: Rick_Ehrenberg
Re: Firm Feel p/s box vs stock reman - 10/03/11 02:26 PM
Quote:
Anyone find a source for the 3/8" ID & 1/2" OD shims needs for this?
A few guys have mentioned that copper brake hose sealing washers are great for this.
I should mention that no amount of pressure fiddling will help a box that's simply worn out. In my experience, after about 75K, the "fine edge" is gone!
Rick
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: Firm Feel p/s box vs stock reman - 10/03/11 07:58 PM
Quote:
I was thinking about using one of the firmfeel units. I've read good things here about them and have decided that I would probably go with a stage 2 box with them.
My question is for anyone who has used a parts store reman. I've always had good luck with all my other parts store parts and was looking for experiences with the p/s pump. Is it way over boosted like the original I have? Or would it tighten things up a little from my 40 y/o original box? Any experiences? I dont mind paying the $300 for the firmfeel, but also dont mind saving some $$ and buying the $60 reman if it will do the job.
I have only one experience wit ha remaned power steering box , it was a saginaw for a durango , i wasn't impressed wit hit. I'd spend the extra money on new or firm feel.
Posted By: sparcy
Re: Firm Feel p/s box vs stock reman - 10/03/11 10:19 PM
I have firm feel stage 2 box 11 /16 tie rods late spindles, adjustable upper control arms, plated lower control arms , hotchkiss swaybar. firmfeel adjustable strut rods , firmfeel greasable lca pins with poly bushings notched to hold silicone grease . cop car rotors with calipers mounted to the rear stop flex brake hoses dual diaphame booster 1973 master cly with proportioning valve and metering valve from a T/A (RAMMAN)running dot 5 brake fluid .car out performs my daily driver 2007 magnum . TOOK the car on laborday weekend and my friend drove it and could not get over how well it handled and road .MY customer support from firm was great
Posted By: jcc
Re: Firm Feel p/s box vs stock reman - 10/03/11 11:34 PM
Quote:
with poly bushings notched to hold silicone grease
, "notched", Is this something new? Care to explain, Any pics?
Posted By: moparmarks
Re: Firm Feel p/s box vs stock reman - 10/03/11 11:51 PM
I'm needing a box right now for a customers 70 Challenger.
A-1 Cardon is out of stock. Can send in yours and is a 3-4 week turnout. Autozone has them but have had bad luck with theirs in the past.
Think I have the customer talked into a Firm Feel.
Posted By: ahy
Re: Firm Feel p/s box vs stock reman - 10/03/11 11:58 PM
I've got the FF stage II box and love it (70E). I liked it even better when I got caster up to 5-7 degrees. The car had fairly high cornering limits from the get go from springs/swaybar and decent tires. With the caster dialed in and -.75 deg camber limits increased but more noticably, it was just fun to corner. It feels "right". FF was great to deal with and helped set up my suspension plan and trouble shoot a little along the way.
Next refinement? Probably measure and figure out how to correct bumpsteer if needed. I may play with pump pressure also per the MA article.
Posted By: DGS
Re: Firm Feel p/s box vs stock reman - 10/04/11 07:53 AM
Any experiences with Steer and Gear? They also sell firm feel boxes but are a bit cheaper. They also have a "secret" stage 4 box...
Posted By: 1_WILD_RT
Re: Firm Feel p/s box vs stock reman - 10/04/11 08:00 AM
Quote:
Any experiences with Steer and Gear? They also sell firm feel boxes but are a bit cheaper. They also have a "secret" stage 4 box...
I think Rick covered that quite well about 20 posts above yours...
Posted By: 500Stroker
Re: Firm Feel p/s box vs stock reman - 10/05/11 12:37 AM
Quote:
Any experiences with Steer and Gear? They also sell firm feel boxes but are a bit cheaper. They also have a "secret" stage 4 box...
I had one of their stage 2's before I went with the FF3. The S&G 2 was very sloppy.
I have 50K miles on my FF3. It's still as tight as the day I installed it.
Posted By: Challenger 1
Re: Firm Feel p/s box vs stock reman - 10/05/11 01:38 AM
Quote:
Once you drive a Firm Feel box you'll never want anything else. I drive a Stage III box and love it! It take a bit more effort than a "one finger" stock PS setup but I like it that way, better road feel is good IMO.
Call Dick Ross and tell him I sent you, he's a good guy!
Naturally I was used to a NOS stock box on my 74 that is not that old which is tight and allows me to steer with eze epecially when I'm sliding the car with rear wheels spinning.
Then I put a stage 2 FF box in my other car with FF upper control arms.
I kind of lost that quick steering control you need when drifting.
The upper arms will completely change the way the car handles for the better because of the added caster.
I didn't really care for the additional stiffness I had with there stage 2 box with all the caster. I had plenty of road feel with the upper arms.
I'm gonna put there upper arms on my 74 with a tight stock box and see before I order my next box for my 3rd and final car. But it'll come from Firm Feel no matter what I buy.
Dick took plenty of time with me on the phone like he must do all day long, good people and great products.
Posted By: daniel_depetro
Re: Firm Feel p/s box vs stock reman - 10/05/11 02:53 AM
Where do we get these larger 11/16" tie rods (source & part number)?
I replaced my power steering box two years ago with an A-1 Cardone reman unit from Advance Auto Parts. List price was ~$130.00, and I paid ~$100.00 with a discount coupon from their online store.
It is great in that it looks a lot nicer than the old one, it doesn't leak, and it performs as it should.
That being said it is just a stock replacement unit, so over-assist is plentiful. Fantastic for a Sunday cruiser around town, personally I'd like to have a little less assist.
Posted By: ahy
Re: Firm Feel p/s box vs stock reman - 10/05/11 03:03 AM
For the OS tie rods, your local parts store. A 70's C body from memory is what to ask for. Or you can get nicer/more expensive versions with solid adjusting sleeves from Firm Feel or Mancini.
Posted By: Strawdawg
Re: Firm Feel p/s box vs stock reman - 10/07/11 07:20 PM
http://www.mcmaster.com/#round-shims/=ee0sv9brass bearing shim for 3/16 x 1/2 bearing - .378ID x .498OD x .020
$7.59 for 10
#92409A605
I am going to try these
Posted By: ramman5600
Re: Firm Feel p/s box vs stock reman - 10/28/11 03:14 AM
Did anyone who purchased the FF units get the optional powder-coating? if so - was it worth the $$$?
Thanks
-C
Posted By: ahy
Re: Firm Feel p/s box vs stock reman - 10/28/11 03:23 AM
I didn't... a clean with solvent, a coat of Eastwood self etch primer and a coat or two of SG black had it looking nice in a few hours. It has held up well also. Powder coat isn't the best thing for the mounting locations either unless it is masked; the thick coating reduces with clamp load at the bolted joint.
Posted By: NOrrTH
Re: Firm Feel p/s box vs stock reman - 10/28/11 05:57 PM
Another vote for Firm Feel. I have the stage II and I am extremely happy. Their customer service was excellent.
Posted By: cjs69mope
Re: Firm Feel p/s box vs stock reman - 10/28/11 07:19 PM
I have the firm feel II and the front sway bar kit and the front tubular upper control arms on my 69 charger ,
I love the way it feels and steers to me. I don't want a big mopar to be to tight in the power steering,just tight enough to feel the road and have no old car wander or slop .
I like to be able to steer around parking lots and side streets with a two finger feel but that is my preference .
My vote is on the firm feel II .
Posted By: PHJ426
Re: Firm Feel p/s box vs stock reman - 10/28/11 11:21 PM
I have a FFII on my car. I think my next step is to drop the line pressure with the shims as outlined above and see how I like that before taking the plunge for a FFIII box.
By the way I did see one poster on here talking about having a FF IV box some top secret super special box. Never asked them about it.
Anyone have a FF IV box how do you like it? Must be a prototype deal or maybe its a FF III run at 800 PSI?