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Anyone using a hydraulic roller camshaft?

Posted By: 4boxers4

Anyone using a hydraulic roller camshaft? - 09/23/11 07:10 PM

I am trying to learn about the advantages /disadvantages of going to a hydraulic roller cam versus my flat tappet. What are the pro's and con's? I have a 440 and I want hot street but able to drive it in the country. I realize that I need new rockers/pushrods but would I need to machine my heads for springs etc? Tell me about what you have learned, please! Thanks...
Posted By: scratchnfotraction

Re: Anyone using a hydraulic roller camshaft? - 09/23/11 08:05 PM

SB is cheaper and ez-er as they have stock roller blocks and valve gear VS the BB retro fit is the first thing I learned.

pro for roller is no worry on the oil/zink,break-in for the cam,you can move the lifters around on the cam unlike a flat tappet.

I just pulled the SB roller cam from one engine and stuffed it right in another with defferent lifters this time with no break in worrys

cons for BB are bronze cam gear/high rate of wear,machine work to clearance roller lifters,adjustable rockers/PRs,higher spring pressures and maybe more machine work,more $ to reto fit,and lot of measureing and math

pro for BB is high performance,no break in worrys with oil, and mild to wild on cam selection

I am working that way for my BB,been roller cam in the SB since 07, never going back to flat myself

and member Brian/IMM has made some lifters to adress some of the opil problems with high lifts,stronger lifter bodys,oiling to the rollers..ect

lots of home work to do yet for a BB
Posted By: 4boxers4

Re: Anyone using a hydraulic roller camshaft? - 09/24/11 01:50 AM

Kind of figured it would entail alot of math and that's cool. You gave me alot of good information! The "machine work to clearance lifters" is cylinders heads for the spring or lifter bore or...?Thanks again!
Posted By: scratchnfotraction

Re: Anyone using a hydraulic roller camshaft? - 09/24/11 02:06 AM

I am still researching it also,but i think some lifters need the block clearanced for the link bars on the lifters and room to get them to drop in the bores.

and depending on the lift and springs..single/double/triple the heads may need machine work also. depending on how mild to wild the cam goes

and then there is the hydro roller lifters or solid roller lifters.

the lunati roller cam I used in the SB,used the comp 901-16 spring which is a single and drops on with stock seals,found that after i got the lunati springs and found it needed PC seals and machine work for double with damper.

so it be wize to do enuff research and homework with the BB swap,but in the long run it will pay off in performance and longevity done right the first time.
Posted By: 67dodge67

Re: Anyone using a hydraulic roller camshaft? - 09/24/11 05:09 AM

I think I answered to a previous post you put on here not too long ago but I didn't mention anything about machine work. I got Eddy RPMs and had no issues at all. The Bullet cam came with matching springs which went on with ease.

Dave
Posted By: rjones

Re: Anyone using a hydraulic roller camshaft? - 09/24/11 12:25 PM

I am running a .510 lift Sig Erson hydraulic roller with Scorpion hydraulic roller lifters in a 505. I had to do no machining of the block and the cam used a standard oil pump drive gear. Used the recommended Erson springs. Have run for 2 years now and around 3000 miles with no problems. Grind # is RH-286-340 and the Erson part # is E419105. Super low end and mid range torque. Barely lopes at idle.

Roger
Posted By: JDMopar

Re: Anyone using a hydraulic roller camshaft? - 09/24/11 02:32 PM

Do some research on the amount of spring pressure you can run with the hyd roller lifters, and how high you can turn the motor with the combo. A good friend of mine put hyd roller lifters in his low deck 500" Procharger motor,and it dropped 2 valves on the first pass. He got conflicting info from the Comp cams guy and the Procharger guy when he was planning the motor, and almost junked a set of B1 heads because of it. I wish I remembered the exact details so it would be more help, but it's been several months since it happened. Find out as much as you can before you plunk your money down. Good luck.
Posted By: 1badmopar

Re: Anyone using a hydraulic roller camshaft? - 09/24/11 05:48 PM

Running one in my Belvedere and love it. I cannot see myself ever going back to a solid for the street.

Low maintenance, reliable, and plenty of power.
Posted By: patrick

Re: Anyone using a hydraulic roller camshaft? - 09/24/11 09:27 PM

running a Bullet Cams reground small block roller in my 318...love it
Posted By: denfireguy

Re: Anyone using a hydraulic roller camshaft? - 09/25/11 12:34 AM

Running a 97 rollercam 5.2 in my 'Cuda. Using Engine Quest heads with LA drill angle, it looked totally stock until I replaced the Carter BBD with a 1406.
Eventually, I will have the cam reground to the same specs Patrick did but I have temporarily run out of money. It runs very nicely and I do not have to worry about zinc or the lack of it in oil.
Craig
Posted By: 451Mopar

Re: Anyone using a hydraulic roller camshaft? - 09/25/11 02:55 AM

The only downside to running a roller cam is cost.
Part of the additional cost besides the cam and lifters are valve springs, pushrods, cam button, and bronze distrubitor/oil pump gear.
Posted By: TooMany62s

Re: Anyone using a hydraulic roller camshaft? - 09/25/11 03:24 AM

I'm using a Comp hydraulic roller(XR280HR-10), 440 source lifters, 440 source roller valve train and 440 source heads. No block machining necessary. So far, no problems.

Attached picture 6840916-ipadmax2.JPG
Posted By: 4boxers4

Re: Anyone using a hydraulic roller camshaft? - 09/27/11 03:05 AM

Quote:

I'm using a Comp hydraulic roller(XR280HR-10), 440 source lifters, 440 source roller valve train and 440 source heads. No block machining necessary. So far, no problems.



I have 440 source heads as well. are you using all stock Stealth components with your combo, please? What type of Rockers are you using with that combo please?
Thanks for all the good input guys!
Posted By: chagjr

Re: Anyone using a hydraulic roller camshaft? - 09/27/11 03:32 AM

Quote:

The only downside to running a roller cam is cost.
Part of the additional cost besides the cam and lifters are valve springs, pushrods, cam button, and bronze distrubitor/oil pump gear.



Don't forget bronze tipped fuel pump push rod.
Posted By: lahatte

Re: Anyone using a hydraulic roller camshaft? - 09/27/11 05:03 AM

I wonder, why do you need a different oil pump drive gear?
Posted By: CrAzYMoPaRGuY

Re: Anyone using a hydraulic roller camshaft? - 09/27/11 06:46 AM

I run a .485" Comp Cams hydraulic roller in my motorhome. Runs awesome, lots of torque, good power from idle on up, but it won't pull 7000 rpms for sure!

It's a 9.5 to 1 compression 360, 2.02 ported heads, M1 intake, 600 Edelbrock on a M1 intake, 1 3/4" headers and 3" exhaust. 4.10 gears.

I run 3500+ rpm for hours at a time. I love the cam, my motorhome moves pretty danged good IMO.

Posted By: TooMany62s

Re: Anyone using a hydraulic roller camshaft? - 09/27/11 11:13 AM

Quote:

Quote:

I'm using a Comp hydraulic roller(XR280HR-10), 440 source lifters, 440 source roller valve train and 440 source heads. No block machining necessary. So far, no problems.



I have 440 source heads as well. are you using all stock Stealth components with your combo, please? What type of Rockers are you using with that combo please?
Thanks for all the good input guys!



I am using 440 Source hydraulic roller lifters and 440 source roller rockers and shafts.
Posted By: 4boxers4

Re: Anyone using a hydraulic roller camshaft? - 09/29/11 04:17 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

I'm using a Comp hydraulic roller(XR280HR-10), 440 source lifters, 440 source roller valve train and 440 source heads. No block machining necessary. So far, no problems.



I have 440 source heads as well. are you using all stock Stealth components with your combo, please? What type of Rockers are you using with that combo please?
Thanks for all the good input guys!



I am using 440 Source hydraulic roller lifters and 440 source roller rockers and shafts.



Wow I didn't know they sold rockers...sorry, I missed that one! Thanks
Posted By: dogdays

Re: Anyone using a hydraulic roller camshaft? - 09/29/11 06:39 PM

If you use a hydraulic roller camshaft you can use stock stamped steel rockers, just get the pushrod length right. Millions of Detroit hydraulic roller engines have been built with non-adjustable valvetrain.

R.
Posted By: POS Dakota

Re: Anyone using a hydraulic roller camshaft? - 09/29/11 09:53 PM

Quote:

The only downside to running a roller cam is cost.
Part of the additional cost besides the cam and lifters are valve springs, pushrods, cam button, and bronze distrubitor/oil pump gear.



Yeah, but flatten one solid flat and the roller cam is paid for...sort of.
Posted By: lahatte

Re: Anyone using a hydraulic roller camshaft? - 09/30/11 12:26 AM

So why do I need a bronze distributor drive gear if running hydraulic rollers?
Posted By: scratchnfotraction

Re: Anyone using a hydraulic roller camshaft? - 09/30/11 01:22 AM

Quote:

So why do I need a bronze distributor drive gear if running hydraulic rollers?



because the cam core is billet steel and needs the bronze gear and a bronze fuel pump push rod as mentioned.

on my SB the cam core has a cast iron gear pressed and pined on so the stock gear works.

my lunati roller cam runs stock roller lifters,push rods,rockers,retainers,seals with comp 901-16 spring = single with damper and no machine work,stock retainers/seals

done jerked it and stabed it in the 2nd SB engine with no worrys on another set of roller lifters..something you cant do with a flat tappet hydro or solid.why I consider the roller cam upgrade as an investment

i have 3 roller cams now and a couple stock ones for regrinds

lots more to the BB than a SB so the homework is key to longevity
Posted By: lahatte

Re: Anyone using a hydraulic roller camshaft? - 09/30/11 01:28 AM

I wonder if the cam manufacturer can tell me what I'll need to have and to address in order to put their roller cam in my 440?
Posted By: scratchnfotraction

Re: Anyone using a hydraulic roller camshaft? - 09/30/11 01:36 AM

yep,they like to sell more stuff

I want to upgrade my 440 but am a little over all the options and needs to get it done.

plenty here or the race board to ask about it

make a few post on retro fitting a BB & opinions

good luck
Posted By: ahy

Re: Anyone using a hydraulic roller camshaft? - 09/30/11 03:06 AM

The alternative to the roller is a fast rate mechanical. Matched up with a good valvetrain it can make a reliable hi-po "fast street" setup. Comp extreme energy high lift, Hughes or a MM lobe cam from Muscle Motors would be a place to start. Matched up with good 3/8" pushrods, 10 degree locks/retainers and good rockers it makes a solid combo. I like the Comp pro-Magnum alloy steel rockers. Good up to about .6" lift, good geometry and no aluminum fatigue issues. At higer lifts and corresponding spring pressures, they need bushed or you need another lifter choice.

Depending on how far you go with lift you would likley need a double valve spring or one of beehive offerings (Comp). Head machining may be required for the doubles. This setup requires high zinc oil to be reliable. I would also use one of the EDM oil hole drilled lifters for added insurance.

On a BB where the roller conversion is tougher and bronze gear durability can be an issue, the mechanical flat tappet is an attractive alternative. You could do something similar with a fast rate hydraulic flat tappet. The fast rate hydraulics are touchy about setup and loose performance to a solid. I don't mind checking lash once in a while so the mechanical cam made a lot of sense to me.

That's what I did on my BB (MM lobe cam). I've got about 8,000 trouble free miles on it.
Posted By: lahatte

Re: Anyone using a hydraulic roller camshaft? - 09/30/11 03:26 AM

Thanks. I'm not looking to build a race engine, just a stronger street performer. This car doesn't have A/C or power brakes, so not having a lot of vacuum for external devices isn't a concern.

A flat tappet would be fine, but if I could eek out a little more power while maintaining drivability, that's always nice.
Posted By: Pyper70

Re: Anyone using a hydraulic roller camshaft? - 09/30/11 02:01 PM

A good read....my 505 has a few parts to finish collecting and its ready to go. I have a .541 lift roller cam from Comp plus roller lifters, a HV Melling Oil pump, the Bronze dist. gear. (But I have to change out that bushing), I have to get that fuel pump rod as well as all the pushrods, I have the cam button. I just spent the little money I saved and bought the Harland Sharpe rocker assembly. Matched with the Eddy RPM heads and swapping out the valve springs for the COMP recommended ones...I am hoping to own the beast she was destined to be. Hopefully getting to the goal of 550 realistic HP.
Posted By: 451Mopar

Re: Anyone using a hydraulic roller camshaft? - 09/30/11 03:40 PM

Quote:

A good read....my 505 has a few parts to finish collecting and its ready to go. I have a .541 lift roller cam from Comp plus roller lifters, a HV Melling Oil pump, the Bronze dist. gear. (But I have to change out that bushing), I have to get that fuel pump rod as well as all the pushrods, I have the cam button. I just spent the little money I saved and bought the Harland Sharpe rocker assembly. Matched with the Eddy RPM heads and swapping out the valve springs for the COMP recommended ones...I am hoping to own the beast she was destined to be. Hopefully getting to the goal of 550 realistic HP.



Sounds nice. What compression ratio and intake?
Just asking, I just started building my 505" stroker. Should be about 10:1 with stealth heads, and I am planning on using the comp XR286HR cam with Isky 8005A valve springs, because I plan to use higher ratio rocker arms, maybe 1.7:1?
Posted By: Pyper70

Re: Anyone using a hydraulic roller camshaft? - 09/30/11 06:52 PM

Quote:

Quote:

A good read....my 505 has a few parts to finish collecting and its ready to go. I have a .541 lift roller cam from Comp plus roller lifters, a HV Melling Oil pump, the Bronze dist. gear. (But I have to change out that bushing), I have to get that fuel pump rod as well as all the pushrods, I have the cam button. I just spent the little money I saved and bought the Harland Sharpe rocker assembly. Matched with the Eddy RPM heads and swapping out the valve springs for the COMP recommended ones...I am hoping to own the beast she was destined to be. Hopefully getting to the goal of 550 realistic HP.



Sounds nice. What compression ratio and intake?
Just asking, I just started building my 505" stroker. Should be about 10:1 with stealth heads, and I am planning on using the comp XR286HR cam with Isky 8005A valve springs, because I plan to use higher ratio rocker arms, maybe 1.7:1?



11:1 with a CH28 Dual Quad and dual 500 Eddy's. I have the dual quad setup on my 440 now and LOVE it
Posted By: gdonovan

Re: Anyone using a hydraulic roller camshaft? - 10/02/11 01:40 PM

Quote:

The only downside to running a roller cam is cost.
Part of the additional cost besides the cam and lifters are valve springs, pushrods, cam button, and bronze distrubitor/oil pump gear.



With a big block maybe, smallblock not so much since the factory churned them out in huge numbers from 88-03.

All you need is the cam and new springs.

I picked up a used ($175) .505 lift Comp Cams roller for my 5.9 Duster and it dropped right in. Stock pushrods, lifters, cam gear and rockers.

Big block is a different story as there isn't any factory pieces to fall back on.
Posted By: 4boxers4

Re: Anyone using a hydraulic roller camshaft? - 10/02/11 04:31 PM

Quote:

If you use a hydraulic roller camshaft you can use stock stamped steel rockers, just get the pushrod length right. Millions of Detroit hydraulic roller engines have been built with non-adjustable valvetrain.

R.



Really? No change of the big block rockers from stock non adjustable to adjustable? How did you get the dimension for the proper pushrod size, please? How is the streetability? Thanks!
Posted By: ahy

Re: Anyone using a hydraulic roller camshaft? - 10/02/11 10:13 PM

Quote:

Quote:

If you use a hydraulic roller camshaft you can use stock stamped steel rockers, just get the pushrod length right. Millions of Detroit hydraulic roller engines have been built with non-adjustable valvetrain.

R.



Really? No change of the big block rockers from stock non adjustable to adjustable? How did you get the dimension for the proper pushrod size, please? How is the streetability? Thanks!



I"m sure it could be done with a checking pushrod and made to order pushrods. The stamped rockers have limits on how much spring pressure they can take. They max out at about .5" lift. I wouldn't see the point in running a roller with such small lift. Might as well run a mild hydraulic flat tappet.
Posted By: dogdays

Re: Anyone using a hydraulic roller camshaft? - 10/03/11 04:18 PM

There are people on this board running the stamped steel rockers to 0.650" lift. I don't like them because they look bad and can flex, but on the other hand they have less rotating inertia than most other rockers and they're inexpensive.

The drill on the pushrods is, you get a pair of checking or adjustable pushrods from a cam or pushrod company and use them to set your lifter preload how you want. Then you mail in the pushrods and they make (or pull off the shelf) a set. There are at least three ways to measure a pushrod and by doing what I have just described you can be assured of getting the right length.

It is also possible to run 16 adjustable pushrods, it was done all the time back in the day.

R.
Posted By: ahy

Re: Anyone using a hydraulic roller camshaft? - 10/03/11 11:44 PM

I believe you... some have run the stamped rockers at high lifts. I also know quite a few folks have punched holes in them with the pushrod at much lower lifts. It seems like they fall into the "gamble" category beyond about .5" lift. With one consequence of failure trashing most of a $10k+ engine it just doesn't seem like a good gamble.
Posted By: gdonovan

Re: Anyone using a hydraulic roller camshaft? - 10/04/11 12:02 AM

Quote:

I believe you... some have run the stamped rockers at high lifts. I also know quite a few folks have punched holes in them with the pushrod at much lower lifts.



I speared new MP "6-pack" rockers twice on my 440 back in the day running a .509 cam and the recommended springs. You could not get me to run a .500+ cam again with stamped rockers for love or money with a big block.

The new Magnum small blocks seem to have no issues however, I know lots of folks running over 500 lift with them.
Posted By: POS Dakota

Re: Anyone using a hydraulic roller camshaft? - 10/04/11 12:39 AM

Quote:

Quote:

I believe you... some have run the stamped rockers at high lifts. I also know quite a few folks have punched holes in them with the pushrod at much lower lifts.



I speared new MP "6-pack" rockers twice on my 440 back in the day running a .509 cam and the recommended springs. You could not get me to run a .500+ cam again with stamped rockers for love or money with a big block.

The new Magnum small blocks seem to have no issues however, I know lots of folks running over 500 lift with them.



funny you mention that because if i DID still run the stamped rockers, my engine wouldnt have eaten a bunch of needle pieces and destroyed itself. They did work fine.
Posted By: ahy

Re: Anyone using a hydraulic roller camshaft? - 10/04/11 12:52 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

I believe you... some have run the stamped rockers at high lifts. I also know quite a few folks have punched holes in them with the pushrod at much lower lifts.



I speared new MP "6-pack" rockers twice on my 440 back in the day running a .509 cam and the recommended springs. You could not get me to run a .500+ cam again with stamped rockers for love or money with a big block.

The new Magnum small blocks seem to have no issues however, I know lots of folks running over 500 lift with them.



funny you mention that because if i DID still run the stamped rockers, my engine wouldnt have eaten a bunch of needle pieces and destroyed itself. They did work fine.



I sure agree with you on the needles. With a stout well oiled shaft MOPAR's don't need them. My favorite types are the ductile iron, Comp Pro Magnum and RAS. All simple, stout and robust plain bearing types when applied correctly. I'm running the Comps.
Posted By: gdonovan

Re: Anyone using a hydraulic roller camshaft? - 10/04/11 01:18 AM

Quote:



I sure agree with you on the needles. With a stout well oiled shaft MOPAR's don't need them. My favorite types are the ductile iron, Comp Pro Magnum and RAS. All simple, stout and robust plain bearing types when applied correctly. I'm running the Comps.



When it comes to roller rockers, in my opinion go with a part with excellent reputation like Harland Sharp or don't bother. Run them on the Magnum engines for thousands of miles without fail.

T&D also has an excellent reputation.

On the GTX I went with a set of Max Wedge rockers I stumbled upon and they are still on the car to this day.
Posted By: Pyper70

Re: Anyone using a hydraulic roller camshaft? - 10/04/11 03:56 PM

Quote:

Quote:



I sure agree with you on the needles. With a stout well oiled shaft MOPAR's don't need them. My favorite types are the ductile iron, Comp Pro Magnum and RAS. All simple, stout and robust plain bearing types when applied correctly. I'm running the Comps.



When it comes to roller rockers, in my opinion go with a part with excellent reputation like Harland Sharp or don't bother. Run them on the Magnum engines for thousands of miles without fail.

T&D also has an excellent reputation.

On the GTX I went with a set of Max Wedge rockers I stumbled upon and they are still on the car to this day.



My thoughts exactly. My only weak point in the valve train was the 440 Source Rockers, I have since sold them. I didn't want to trash a 10k motor for a few hundred bucks. I ordered the Harlands and I am awaiting their arrival. The only thing left to really order of mechanical stress are the pushrods.
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