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Rear main STILL leaking!

Posted By: Ledman_70

Rear main STILL leaking! - 08/10/11 06:44 PM

The rear main seal in the 426 wedge in my 64 Polara has pretty much leaked from day 1. I have replaced the seal several times.... last time I put in the Mancini billet saddle and seal, and a new Milodon pan, but it still leaks. It occurred to me last week that I had installed a high pressure oil pump when I built the motor, which carries 75lbs going down the road. I thought.. That's it! So I went to Jegs and got a high VOLUME pump and installed it. STILL has 75lbs on the road and still leaking. I have no idea where to go from here. Am I overlooking something obvious?
Posted By: Mr.Yuck

Re: Rear main STILL leaking! - 08/10/11 06:48 PM

Could it be coming from another source? Oil pressure switch/gauge pung? valve cover? crack in the block? oil pan? Did you run dye thru it yet?
Posted By: Joesixpack

Re: Rear main STILL leaking! - 08/10/11 09:03 PM

was the engine block line honed and or line bored at 1 time?then you need to take some material off the seal bridge.
Posted By: JohnRR

Re: Rear main STILL leaking! - 08/10/11 09:07 PM

Quote:

The rear main seal in the 426 wedge in my 64 Polara has pretty much leaked from day 1. I have replaced the seal several times.... last time I put in the Mancini billet saddle and seal, and a new Milodon pan, but it still leaks. It occurred to me last week that I had installed a high pressure oil pump when I built the motor, which carries 75lbs going down the road. I thought.. That's it! So I went to Jegs and got a high VOLUME pump and installed it. STILL has 75lbs on the road and still leaking. I have no idea where to go from here. Am I overlooking something obvious?




the oil pressure has little to do with it , it's not directly oil by a pressure passage.

What type of crank do you have, stock or an aftermarket replacement .
Posted By: Ledman_70

Re: Rear main STILL leaking! - 08/10/11 11:51 PM

I have no idea if it's been line bored... I was told the block was a race block for a 65 Satellite named Alias Smith in the 70's, so I guess it's possible. The oil is leaking right out between the pan and inspection cover on the bellhousing. I'm pretty sure it's not coming from the oil pressure fitting and the crank is a stock crank from a 413 I have. I never considered taking some material off the main cap. I suppose that would need to be done by a machine shop, but how would you measure how much to remove?
Posted By: pishta

Re: Rear main STILL leaking! - 08/11/11 12:13 AM

Well, if it has been line bores, then you can't take anything off the cap, as it will already be sunk into the block centerline, just as a timing chain comes in undersized models. Youll have to add some RTV or even a second strip of gasket material to the top of the rear cap to compensate for the uneven surface. Does Someome make that spiral beveled bearing that pushes the oil away from the seal or is that a smll block thing? Dont rule out the cam freezeplug or the oil galley plugs behind the trans, or even a leak that finds its way to the lowest point of the motor. Get yourself some fluorescent dye and a black light penlight and start hunting after hours or in a very dark garage.
Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: Rear main STILL leaking! - 08/11/11 01:18 AM

What Pishta said w this many tries I'd get a dye kit & pinpoint the loc exactly then a good visual during dissassembly to ID the prob
Posted By: JohnRR

Re: Rear main STILL leaking! - 08/11/11 04:14 AM

Line boring only affects the crank main bores , the cap mounting face does not get machined .
Posted By: DAYCLONA

Re: Rear main STILL leaking! - 08/11/11 04:41 AM

What kind of seal?,....rubber, rope?

Is the crank seal journal smooth or serated?
Posted By: scratchnfotraction

Re: Rear main STILL leaking! - 08/11/11 01:27 PM

have you tried one of the improved oil seals that member 'roadhazzard" makes?

his has fixed this on a few engines from the post I have read here on Moparts

worth checking into after this many times R&R-ing it.

Posted By: Ledman_70

Re: Rear main STILL leaking! - 08/11/11 01:30 PM

The seal is rubber and the crank is smooth. I never even thought to check the back of the motor last summer when I installed a new clutch.
Posted By: Commando1

Re: Rear main STILL leaking! - 08/11/11 01:39 PM

99 times out of a hundred, if the stock cap is retained, it's human error.
Posted By: az426john

Re: Rear main STILL leaking! - 08/11/11 02:13 PM

There used to be a "anti-leak" rear main bearing available for big blocks. I don't know is it really worked or if it was just marketing.
Posted By: VS29H0B

Re: Rear main STILL leaking! - 08/11/11 09:30 PM

Quote:

There used to be a "anti-leak" rear main bearing available for big blocks. I don't know is it really worked or if it was just marketing.




There was also a similar item available for SBs in the Mopar Performance parts catalog a few years ago.
Posted By: CompWedgeEngines

Re: Rear main STILL leaking! - 08/11/11 09:40 PM

This has several " options" as to what could be wrong. Its never clear without seeing it in person, but that being said, here are the common mistakes:

1) Seal in backwards
2) Seal retainer wasnt lined up with seal grroves and/or checked
3) Rough crank surface
4) Side seals not all the way down in the slots, OR , protruding from top of seal retainer. Overall mis-installation of side seals.
5) Spot facing needed where the bolt heads rest inside the cap, Errosion etc often leave the caps cockd because of wear there.Spot facing of bolt bosses does help.
6) Seal retainer ends need to be cut in a cap grinder to be squared and add a slight bit of tension to seal
7) Oil pan bolts too long and tighttned too far, cracking open the " wells" in the seal retainer, and oil leaks out the threads.
8) As mentioned, two different " planes" between seal retainer and pan rail where the retainer and block meet. Oftn a good gasket seals this up.

Many times a seal is to blame, but it can also be the side seals, the oil pan bolt threads, a misfitting retainer and also sometimes simply filling the groove ont he OUTSIDE of the seal retainer to the block will stop what is believe to be a bad rear main. I only use Superformance and Fel Pro 2904 seals. Stock ones will work fine, but never as good in my opinion as the Viton style. You also can have problems when a seal surface has been polished too much, or is too rough. Sometimes a slight polish helps, but its a good idea to cut the retainer to add some pressure afterwards. The old anti leak rear main bearings did work, but you really shouldnt need one if everything is correct. You can also switch to a rope seal, and often times it will resolve a problem, or at least band aid it. Again, if you know what to look for, and how to do it, rear mains dont and shouldnt be a troubling leak.

Long shot,there were some cranks, typically marine cranks that ran reverse rotation and had the seal serrations backwards! Doubt thats the case here, just saying.

Good luck.
Posted By: pishta

Re: Rear main STILL leaking! - 08/12/11 01:39 AM

Quote:

Line boring only affects the crank main bores , the cap mounting face does not get machined .




Could you elabotrate? I cant picture this. Seeing it done looks like you expand the entire "bore" of the crank bearings. Does this neccesitate oversized OD bearings? Why do they sell undersized timing chains? Thought the crank was actually higher in the block now (installed)
Posted By: JohnRR

Re: Rear main STILL leaking! - 08/12/11 04:44 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Line boring only affects the crank main bores , the cap mounting face does not get machined .




Could you elabotrate? I cant picture this. Seeing it done looks like you expand the entire "bore" of the crank bearings. Does this neccesitate oversized OD bearings? Why do they sell undersized timing chains? Thought the crank was actually higher in the block now (installed)




the only part that is machined is the hole the crank sits if , some material is taken off the face of the CAP to make the hole egg shaped the the hole is rebored round . The surface the caps sit on in the block does not get machined so the rear main is not in same exact place as the main bores , it gets very expensive and labor intensive to machine the seal bore , never seen it done .

Normally you don't need a shorter chain when a block is relined bored for main studs , it's when you spin a bearing or so other major issue that one would need a shorter chain.
Posted By: CompWedgeEngines

Re: Rear main STILL leaking! - 08/12/11 04:45 AM

You dont make the bores any bigger than the required specs, which have a low and high limit. The reason the bores arent " expanded" is because tyhe first thing you do is cut a few thousands of an inch off the feet of the main caps. The makes the bore " smaller" to start with, then you bore or hone ( two completely different things) back to the spec size. I prefer to hone to the low limit, which gives the maximum " crush" on the bearing shells. The bearings shells ( outer) dont change, they are all the same size. If a shop does the job RIGHT, they take minimal material off of the block sides ( saddles if you will)of the mains, so as to not change the crank to cam centerline very much. If someone doesnt do it this way, they then change that dimension, and if its been done several times wrong, thats where your " minus" timing chains come into play.
Posted By: DAYCLONA

Re: Rear main STILL leaking! - 08/12/11 06:05 AM

Quote:

The seal is rubber and the crank is smooth. I never even thought to check the back of the motor last summer when I installed a new clutch.






That's the correct finish for a rubber 2 pc seal, I'll assume you've installed the main seal with the "lips" facing inward towards the motor,...but are you installing the seal dry?...if so, your burning the lip on start up,...if this is the case lube the mating surface of the seal and crank on the NEXT seal install with some moly lube, plus you should clock the seal offset in it's installation regarding the mating line, you shouldn't make it flush with the split in the seal retainer, basically hide the seam of the mated halves in the grooved journal way, not at the parting line
Posted By: HemiRick

Re: Rear main STILL leaking! - 08/12/11 04:44 PM

The crank should have the diagonal hash marks where the seal rides. If it's an old marine crank they are going the wrong way and this is the problem.
Posted By: cjs69mope

Re: Rear main STILL leaking! - 08/14/11 12:18 AM

Quote:

You dont make the bores any bigger than the required specs, which have a low and high limit. The reason the bores arent " expanded" is because tyhe first thing you do is cut a few thousands of an inch off the feet of the main caps. The makes the bore " smaller" to start with, then you bore or hone ( two completely different things) back to the spec size. I prefer to hone to the low limit, which gives the maximum " crush" on the bearing shells. The bearings shells ( outer) dont change, they are all the same size. If a shop does the job RIGHT, they take minimal material off of the block sides ( saddles if you will)of the mains, so as to not change the crank to cam centerline very much. If someone doesnt do it this way, they then change that dimension, and if its been done several times wrong, thats where your " minus" timing chains come into play.



I agree with this , if the line bore is properly done the block dimensions should not have changed , material should be taken of the caps first .
they sell a special main bearing with a slit in it to dump oil pressure away from the seal in the block this may help .

jc whittney used to sell the speacial main bearing.
Posted By: jbc426

Re: Rear main STILL leaking! - 08/14/11 07:23 AM

Quote:

The seal is rubber and the crank is smooth. I never even thought to check the back of the motor last summer when I installed a new clutch.




Maybe you could tell us how you are installing it. What sealant you use, where you are putting that, etc. If you explain the entire process/technique you are using, it may uncover a skipped step or other problem.
Posted By: WyleECoyote

Re: Rear main STILL leaking! - 08/14/11 01:10 PM

I made my own transmission dust cover with no relief, sealed it with permatex, tapped the bottom of the bellhousing and installed a drain plug. I empty it every couple of months.... ACME APPROVED.
Posted By: JohnRR

Re: Rear main STILL leaking! - 08/14/11 02:29 PM

Quote:

The seal is rubber and the crank is smooth.




You say you have a stock crank from a 413 and it's seal surface is smooth ???
Posted By: Oyvind Mopar

Re: Rear main STILL leaking! - 08/14/11 08:59 PM

When seal retainer is dismantled: Check with a dial indicator if there is a runout on the sealing surface. It could happen if the crank has been ground on the mains and not properly centered. The sealing surface is normally too narrow to be ground with the crank grinding wheel. So, it depends on the quality and aligning done by the machinist. If this is the case it will not help whatever you do, other than take the crank out, and have it corrected. My
Posted By: dOoC

Re: Rear main STILL leaking! - 08/14/11 09:07 PM

Quote:

I made my own transmission dust cover with no relief, sealed it with permatex, tapped the bottom of the bellhousing and installed a drain plug. I empty it every couple of months.... ACME APPROVED.




ACME approved ? .... now Mr Coyote wouldn't the RoadRunner just plumb-it back into the pan ?

Posted By: 1_WILD_RT

Re: Rear main STILL leaking! - 08/14/11 09:10 PM

I've correct two engines recently that had received multiple new rear main seals... Both were leaking out of the oil galley plugs.... The plugs were not tapered plugs like the factory plugs, the engines had both been recently (within 5 years) overhauled & both had galley plugs that were not like OE....

BTW You can pull the trans & pull the distributor & oil pump drive & have someone spin the oil pump while you check the galley plugs...
Posted By: Hemi_Ram

Re: Rear main STILL leaking! - 08/14/11 09:10 PM

I have been going through the same thing on my 512 (World M/P Block). Leaked on the dyno and I resealed it; leaked in the car and I pulled the motor to inspect it. There was a thread about World blocks being machined wrong for the seal but mine looked ok. I was about to get PO'd and then I seen that there were 2 deep grooves on the top inside of the seal reatainer; I pulled #5 cap and sure enough, the cap was hitting the seal retainer preventing it from seating all of the way. I have used these mancini billet side sealed o ring retainers on several of my builds and never had a problem. I looked at the retainer that came with the block and it is machined a lot more in order to clear the cap. This probably is not your situation but you might check and ensure the retainer is not hitting #5 cap.
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