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manual trans question
Posted By: EF8aar
manual trans question - 06/08/11 03:15 PM
hello... I am looking for opinions on a shifting problem I have been having with my '70 'cuda. The rods appear to be installed and aligned correctly. With the car at rest, it appears I can reach all gears and reverse. However, while in motion going from 1st to 2nd is a problem. I can only get into 2nd gear intermittently and most of the time it won't go in. I can however, go from 1st to 3rd or 4th, then back into 2nd. I can also start out in 2nd.
- The fluid is non-synthetic valvoline (or other) 80-90w.
- The shifter was rebuilt by me with new internal parts and appears to be working well.
- I also replaced the 1-2 operating lever because it had some play.
I bought the car with the trans problem. My initial thoughts were a rod alignment, but after a closer look, I decided to rebuild the shifter. And while that made a big improvement, it didn't cure the 2nd gear problem.
I have not pulled the sidecover, but at this point, I'm thinking 1-2 shifter fork????
Any thoughts would be very much appreciated, I'd like to drive this thing
.
Thank you - Jerry
Posted By: Cuda340
Re: manual trans question - 06/08/11 03:43 PM
Did you try adjusting the clutch?
Also is the fluid in the trans GL-4 or GL-5?
Posted By: EF8aar
Re: manual trans question - 06/08/11 03:48 PM
Thank you for responding ..
No, I hadn't thought of adjusting the clutch. The car does not have an overcenter spring either, if that matters at all..
The fluid was in the trans when I bought the car. The prior owner told me it was valvoline 80-90w nothing further..
Posted By: Cuda340
Re: manual trans question - 06/08/11 04:04 PM
Does it grind or not go in to 2nd? Also adjustment of the clutch may help with the input shaft not spinning. If the oil is not GL-4 spec the slider won't grab the syncro as good as it should and it will be tough to shift. Just a couple of quick things to look at, before you tear into the trans. As far as the overhead spring being gone if it is a diaphram style clutch the it is supposed to be gone.
Posted By: EF8aar
Re: manual trans question - 06/08/11 04:22 PM
It does not grind, it just will not go in. It will go into 2nd from 1st at a crawl, but under acceleration or any rate of speed about >5mph, it won't go in.
I do not know what type of clutch is in the car.
If I adjust the clutch, am I looking for a higher or lower pedal?
Thank you for your help
Posted By: Cuda340
Re: manual trans question - 06/08/11 04:50 PM
Actually you want to measure the air gap between the clutch disc and/or the flywheel or pressure plate with the pedal fully pressed in. It should be about .060" or so for the proper clearance. The higher the pedal goes the more stroke and the more clearance will be gained.
Posted By: D149
Re: manual trans question - 06/08/11 05:30 PM
I had the same problem with 3rd gear in my Road Runner, no grinding, it just wouldn't go into gear most of the time. I did the same thing as you, adjust rods and rebuild shifter, but neither fixed the problem. I pulled the trans and found the 3-4 synchro sleeve worn. I replaced it and it shifts perfectly now. Hope this helps.
Posted By: EF8aar
Re: manual trans question - 06/08/11 05:50 PM
both of you have brought me great advise... thank you
I will try adjusting the clutch, then if that dosen't do it I'll pull the cover and take a peak inside.
Is is possible to see if the synchro sleeve is worn just from pulling the cover?
Posted By: Cuda340
Re: manual trans question - 06/08/11 07:13 PM
I am assuming by the syncro sleeve he is refering to the slider. If so you can see if the ends are all chewed up, but more than likely it will be the brass syncro itself. The brass syncros are made to be sacrificial (brass is softer than steel) make sure all the dog teeth of the syncro are good and all the dog teeth on the gear are good. The should be sharp looking not with a smooth face. It sounds to me like the syncro is not grabbing the gear enough and that can be due to the oil not being GL-4 rated. If it is GL-5 it has too many friction modifiers in it and it is too slippery and won't let the syncro grab the gear hub.
Hope this helps.
Posted By: EF8aar
Re: manual trans question - 06/08/11 07:40 PM
This is good... Ok, so if I understand you correctly, I should check condition of the dog teeth of the syncro and all the dog teeth on the gear. If they look good, perhaps a change of fluid to a GL-4 type could solve it?
I think I will check the clutch as you said earlier and revisit my linkage one more time before cracking the case.
Thank you!
Posted By: Cuda340
Re: manual trans question - 06/08/11 08:03 PM
Yes sir. that's it. I would even try and change the fluid before cracking the case, it's easier and it might just work.
Posted By: EF8aar
Re: manual trans question - 06/08/11 08:43 PM
excellent
Thank you!
Posted By: Dean_Kuzluzski
Re: manual trans question - 06/08/11 08:51 PM
It may not be relevant but under really hard acceleration it can be hard to get it into 2nd gear dur to worn/loose motor mount insulators.
Posted By: Stanton
Re: manual trans question - 06/08/11 09:28 PM
My vote goes to a bad syncro. If fluid was the problem it would likely be an issue with all gears, not just second !! Clutch ... shouldn't be an issue if you have about an inch of freeplay in the pedal.
Ideally the syncro teeth should all be sharp - both the steel and the brass. However, I've had a few trannys with bad steel teeth and they've all worked fine once new brass rings were installed.
The problem with replacing the "steel" parts is the extent and expense. Its one thing to replace a slider/ring assembly but they're only half the equation ... the other half is the syncro teeth on each gear! If they're worn on the slider then the corresponding teeth on the gear should be shot too! Start replacing all the steel parts that have worn teeth and you may as well buy a new trans!
Pull the side cover, drop the driveshaft, yank the tailstock and replace all the brass rings, reassemble and drive it for years.
Posted By: cudaman1969
Re: manual trans question - 06/08/11 11:09 PM
i had the problem a while back trying to shift at high rpm from 1st to 2nd,shifted ok just riding around, found the bushing in the crank was very tight(actually pulled out of crank when i removed the trans)so the syncs could not slow the speed of the shaft to shift.i put the roller bearing that fits where the conv snout goes and worked great. fixed the problem i had.
Posted By: Cuda340
Re: manual trans question - 06/09/11 02:32 PM
Quote:
i had the problem a while back trying to shift at high rpm from 1st to 2nd,shifted ok just riding around, found the bushing in the crank was very tight(actually pulled out of crank when i removed the trans)so the syncs could not slow the speed of the shaft to shift.i put the roller bearing that fits where the conv snout goes and worked great. fixed the problem i had.
Good Point!!!
Posted By: Cuda340
Re: manual trans question - 06/09/11 02:34 PM
Quote:
My vote goes to a bad syncro. If fluid was the problem it would likely be an issue with all gears, not just second !! Clutch ... shouldn't be an issue if you have about an inch of freeplay in the pedal.
Ideally the syncro teeth should all be sharp - both the steel and the brass. However, I've had a few trannys with bad steel teeth and they've all worked fine once new brass rings were installed.
The problem with replacing the "steel" parts is the extent and expense. Its one thing to replace a slider/ring assembly but they're only half the equation ... the other half is the syncro teeth on each gear! If they're worn on the slider then the corresponding teeth on the gear should be shot too! Start replacing all the steel parts that have worn teeth and you may as well buy a new trans!
Pull the side cover, drop the driveshaft, yank the tailstock and replace all the brass rings, reassemble and drive it for years.
Another Good Point!!! Although if it is an 18 spline I believe you have to drop the cluster gear to remove tailshaft/stock.
Posted By: EF8aar
Re: manual trans question - 06/09/11 03:48 PM
I took a closer overall look at the trans last night. I see evidence of a fresh pinkish color RTV most notibly at the reverse detent bolt area. Therefore, I think this box has been opened and I'll need to pull the cover to see what's going on.
Thank you for all the excellent responses
Posted By: Stanton
Re: manual trans question - 06/09/11 06:11 PM
Quote:
Although if it is an 18 spline I believe you have to drop the cluster gear to remove tailshaft/stock.
Think about what you just said ... if you had to drop the cluster to get the taistock out that would mean it would also have to be dropped to put it back in. If so, how would you get the cluster shaft in after the tailstock is in ?!?!?! So no, you don't have to drop the cluster to get the tailstock out.
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: manual trans question - 06/09/11 06:22 PM
Quote:
If so, how would you get the cluster shaft in after the tailstock is in ?!?!?!
If it were the case you would do it the same way you have to do it assembling an overdrive 833 
Posted By: Cuda340
Re: manual trans question - 06/09/11 07:38 PM
Quote:
Quote:
If so, how would you get the cluster shaft in after the tailstock is in ?!?!?!
If it were the case you would do it the same way you have to do it assembling an overdrive 833
Exactly John... 
For some reason I thought you couldn't remove the main shaft without dropping the cluster on an 18-spline. maybe I am getting confused with the OD.
Posted By: Stanton
Re: manual trans question - 06/09/11 09:47 PM
Quote:
If it were the case you would do it the same way you have to do it assembling an overdrive 833
tell me how you'd get the shaft out from the front - particularly since there's a key in the back !!!
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: manual trans question - 06/10/11 12:44 PM
Quote:
Quote:
If it were the case you would do it the same way you have to do it assembling an overdrive 833
tell me how you'd get the shaft out from the front - particularly since there's a key in the back !!!
Your post was edited by not a charger ??? ... you just can't get over the diarrhea of the keyboard you seem to be afflicted with ??? 
I'm a little disappointed that it was edited by a mod because I enjoy reading the venom you 
Stanton I'll ASSuME you either have never taken apart a an OD 4 speed or do not have a factory service manual .... I'm curious if you have ever taken apart an 833 since you can't get the cluster pin out the front even after you pull the key off the back as you are suggesting. 
First off you are correct that you do not drop the cluster shaft on any NON OD 833 to pull the tail and mainshaft with gears , and one would definitely not do it with the trans bolted to the bellhousing/engine as you are suggesting the OP do because there is no way to push the cluster pin to the rear.
But as far as dropping the cluster gear on an OD the manual tells you how to do it ... Unbolt the tailhousing , rotate it till you have clear access to the rear of the cluster pin , pull the soft plug from the front of the trans and push the pin out the back , the cluster gear drops down and the mainshaft is now easily able to be removed , repeat in reverse to assemble.
Posted By: Pntastar69
Re: manual trans question - 06/10/11 01:02 PM
Posted By: Stanton
Re: manual trans question - 06/10/11 02:36 PM
John-boy, do you actually read the posts before you reply or do you just have a hard time with the english language ?!?!?
Quote:
you can't get the cluster pin out the front even after you pull the key off the back as you are suggesting.
I never suggested that at all
Quote:
First off you are correct
Thank you John-boy ... this is one of the most intelligent statements you've made.
Quote:
and one would definitely not do it with the trans bolted to the bellhousing engine as you are suggesting the OP do because there is no way to push the cluster pin to the rear.
Never suggested that. In fact I actually stated why it couldn't be done but of course you didn't read that post!!
Quote:
But as far as dropping the cluster gear on an OD the manual tells you how to do it ... Unbolt the tailhousing , rotate it till you have clear access to the rear of the cluster pin , pull the soft plug from the front of the trans and push the pin out the back , the cluster gear drops down and the mainshaft is now easily able to be removed , repeat in reverse to assemble.
This would be logical to me, I wouldn't need a manual for this.
And since its just eating away at you, I called you a smarta$$ and that's all they editted out.
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: manual trans question - 06/10/11 02:42 PM
Quote:
John-boy, do you actually read the posts before you reply or do you just have a hard time with the english language ?!?!?
Quote:
you can't get the cluster pin out the front even after you pull the key off the back as you are suggesting.
I never suggested that at all
Quote:
First off you are correct
Thank you John-boy ... this is one of the most intelligent statements you've made.
Quote:
and one would definitely not do it with the trans bolted to the bellhousing engine as you are suggesting the OP do because there is no way to push the cluster pin to the rear.
Never suggested that. In fact I actually stated why it couldn't be done but of course you didn't read that post!!
Quote:
But as far as dropping the cluster gear on an OD the manual tells you how to do it ... Unbolt the tailhousing , rotate it till you have clear access to the rear of the cluster pin , pull the soft plug from the front of the trans and push the pin out the back , the cluster gear drops down and the mainshaft is now easily able to be removed , repeat in reverse to assemble.
This would be logical to me, I wouldn't need a manual for this.
And since its just eating away at you, I called you a smarta$$ and that's all they editted out.
Stanton-girl nothing is eating away at me , I don't have a clue what your problem is ... well I have an idea but this is not the forum to hash that out in ... but you need to go back and reread what you said before you go accusing me of not being able to read or UNDERSTAND the English language ...
First you suggested this in your FIRST reply in this thread ...
Quote:
Pull the side cover, drop the driveshaft, yank the tailstock and replace all the brass rings, reassemble and drive it for years.
Sure sounds like you SUGGESTED to take the tailhousing and maingear assembly out with the trans still bolted to the bellhousing and installed in the car ...
Then you asked this when going after another member in the post the mod edited , did the mod also edit the question you posed? ...
Quote:
tell me how you'd get the shaft out from the front - particularly since there's a key in the back !!!
Once again , sounds like you asked how to get the cluster pin out of the front of the transmission after pulling the key off it?
As an aside since the OD cluster pin is a slip fit into the front of the case I think one could push the pin out the front after getting the key off ???
If the only logical thing I said was that you were correct, don't worry, that won't happen again.
volley 
Posted By: Pntastar69
Re: manual trans question - 06/10/11 06:38 PM
Posted By: EF8aar
Re: manual trans question *DELETED* - 06/13/11 01:04 PM
Post deleted by EF8aar
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: manual trans question - 06/13/11 01:38 PM
I assume the trans is still in the car , can't really see a lot from those pictures , there is evidence of a missed shift in there , don't know of any trans I have opened that didn't have that.
The wear on the fork is from driving around with ones hand on the shifter and putting a little pressure on it, that is not causing your shifting problem.
How is the downshift from second, when you can get it into it to first at speed greater than 5mph? Have you ever put it in 2nd, drove at speed and got on and off the throttle, if so does it pop out of second?
How did the oil look when it came out? Can you get some sort of magnet in thru the side cover into the bottom and see if there is anything metal down there?
For a test I would put a lighter oil in , maybe a mix of a GL4 oil and ATF
and see if the problem still persists. If so your only choice is to drop the trans and go thru it, but it's probably going to be a little more than just changing the brass.
Pay particular attention to the condition of the syncro hubs, I rebuilt one that had ATF in it for I don't know how many miles, the cluster pin had significant wear and the inside of the slider hubs and the hubs themselves were all galled up and I spent a lot of time with a small stone cleaning them up, would have been easier to just replace them. You'll also want to take a dremel and small stone and dress down the teeth that the syncros engage , get points back on them.
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: manual trans question - 06/13/11 01:43 PM
Posted By: EF8aar
Re: manual trans question - 06/13/11 01:54 PM
Thank you for responding. Just a little history, I bought this car with this problem, test drove it and saw how sloppy the linkages were and also could hear a slight gear or bearing noise. When I got the car I adjusted the rods and saw little improvement so I decided to rebuild the shifter. That made a big difference, but I was still not able to reach second and still heard the noise.
Yes, the trans is still in the car. I never really tested second gear like you said. Because I was afraid to drive it with that noise. The oil looked super clean when I drained it. I have reason to believe it's got GL-5 in it, because that's pretty much all I saw on the shelves at 4 stores this weekend (special order??), so I'm thinking the person before me who filled it just grabbed that. I will try a magnet tonight..
I sincerely appreciate your help. Thank you!
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: manual trans question - 06/13/11 02:00 PM
Quote:
Thank you for responding. Just a little history, I bought this car with this problem, test drove it and saw how sloppy the linkages were and also could hear a slight gear or bearing noise. When I got the car I adjusted the rods and saw little improvement so I decided to rebuild the shifter. That made a big difference, but I was still not able to reach second and still heard the noise.
Yes, the trans is still in the car. I never really tested second gear like you said. Because I was afraid to drive it with that noise. The oil looked super clean when I drained it. I have reason to believe it's got GL-5 in it, because that's pretty much all I saw on the shelves at 4 stores this weekend (special order??), so I'm thinking the person before me who filled it just grabbed that. I will try a magnet tonight..
I sincerely appreciate your help. Thank you!
I would do the fluid test as cheaply as possible , fill it with ATF , and confirm the clutch is adjusted correctly and go for a drive , but if it's making a noise I would think you should just pull it and rebuild it, just get it over with considering the fluid is drained already.
Posted By: EF8aar
Re: manual trans question - 06/13/11 04:02 PM
Thank you for the excellent advice. I have never rebuilt a manual transmission, but I'm going to give it a shot. Besides, I plan to keep the car and I want to be part of bringing up to the next level.
A big THANK YOU for all the members for their excellent input as well..
Posted By: EF8aar
Re: manual trans question - 06/13/11 06:01 PM
Posted By: Stanton
Re: manual trans question - 06/13/11 06:12 PM
Can you move the slider by hand to engage 2nd gear? There should be some resistance from the dogs and you might have to spin the gears to get it to fully engage but it should go. Try the other gears as well ... does 2nd take more effort ??
Posted By: EF8aar
Re: manual trans question - 06/13/11 06:16 PM
I really hate to ask this question, but which one is second gear? I think I was able to move all.
Thank you
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: manual trans question - 06/13/11 06:19 PM
1st is at the rear , 4th is at the front .
Posted By: eds dart
Re: manual trans question - 06/13/11 06:25 PM
in the past when i had 4 speeds and i had problems with second gear i found the brass synchro split. the early (70 and earlier?) synchros were machined differently from later synchros. the later synchros were different and were stronger and didnt break near as often as early style synchros. seems i remember you change the synchro and its holder as an assembly. brewer probably sells a kit to do this conversion. the steel slider teeth and the gear teeth look preety good in the pictures, not a lot of wear for a gear box that always got beat on back in the day.
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: manual trans question - 06/13/11 07:02 PM
Quote:
in the past when i had 4 speeds and i had problems with second gear i found the brass synchro split. the early (70 and earlier?) synchros were machined differently from later synchros. the later synchros were different and were stronger and didnt break near as often as early style synchros. seems i remember you change the synchro and its holder as an assembly. brewer probably sells a kit to do this conversion. the steel slider teeth and the gear teeth look preety good in the pictures, not a lot of wear for a gear box that always got beat on back in the day.
I scoop up cheap OD 4 speeds for this reason, take the syncro assemblies out and just buy a new 3/4 hub from one of the suppliers ...
Posted By: 64dodge572
Re: manual trans question - 06/13/11 07:37 PM
The trans in question has the 70 and newer style syncro assemblies. The rings will still wear even if they haven't been abused. Just might be time for a new set.
Dan
Posted By: Cuda340
Re: manual trans question - 06/15/11 07:49 PM
I had another thought. Is the reverse ball detent intact? A missing ball will cause the reverse gear to float over and lock 2nd gear.
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: manual trans question - 06/15/11 08:05 PM
Quote:
I had another thought. Is the reverse ball detent intact? A missing ball will cause the reverse gear to float over and lock 2nd gear.
Posted By: EF8aar
Re: manual trans question - 06/16/11 03:32 AM
Thanks for responding. I didn't have a chance to get under the car tonight. But one thing comes to mind when you mention the reverse ball detent. I noticed there is no 'click' or positive position for the reverse arm. While I was adjusting the rods I just positioned the lever to the forward position as far as it would go.
Should there be a 'click' or detent when the lever is correctly in reverse? Without a 'click' would I assume the ball may be missing? There is RTV on the bolt at the detent area, so someone's been in there.
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: manual trans question - 06/16/11 05:55 AM
Quote:
Thanks for responding. I didn't have a chance to get under the car tonight. But one thing comes to mind when you mention the reverse ball detent. I noticed there is no 'click' or positive position for the reverse arm. While I was adjusting the rods I just positioned the lever to the forward position as far as it would go.
Should there be a 'click' or detent when the lever is correctly in reverse? Without a 'click' would I assume the ball may be missing? There is RTV on the bolt at the detent area, so someone's been in there.
There should definitely be a detent , disconnect the reverse lever from the trans and rotate the part it bolted to on the trans , if you have no detent you have a problem there . Pull just the outer bolt , pull the spring and put a magnet down the hole to retrieve the ball , if there is no ball you may have found the problem .
Posted By: EF8aar
Re: manual trans question - 06/16/11 12:20 PM
I haven't pulled it yet, but I am fairly certain that there was no detent when I excercised the full travel of that lever. It was a smooth stroke from left to right.
Posted By: Cuda340
Re: manual trans question - 06/16/11 01:51 PM
Cross your fingers, I think the case may be solved...
Posted By: Cuda340
Re: manual trans question - 06/16/11 01:55 PM
Here are the reverse parts.
Posted By: Cuda340
Re: manual trans question - 06/16/11 02:47 PM
If the reverse detent is the problem, I would still suggest going to find some GL-4 Rated 80-90 gear oil as well.
Posted By: EF8aar
Re: manual trans question - 06/17/11 04:01 AM
Quote:
I had another thought. Is the reverse ball detent intact? A missing ball will cause the reverse gear to float over and lock 2nd gear.
Well, I checked it tonight and found a spring but no ball. I used a magnet and even a mirror and didn't see a ball. So I guess it's safe to say, it's not in there. And, maybe, maybe this is the first step at getting this problem solved. I guess the next logical thing is to order up a ball, gasket, and side cover gasket. Should I replace anything else while I'm in there?
Thank you
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: manual trans question - 06/17/11 01:13 PM
No that will cover it .
Posted By: Cuda340
Re: manual trans question - 06/17/11 02:06 PM
What JohnRR said above and I just want to add also pull out the big portion where the spring and ball go into, regasket that as well.
Posted By: EF8aar
Re: manual trans question - 06/19/11 02:14 AM
So I went back under the car tonight doing some clean-up and I thought I'd feel around the bottom of the trans for any metal, and what do you know...... the ball!!
So for the heck of it, I assembled the reverse detent mechanism and the reverse arm now has the detents .... now I have to wonder why the ball was at the bottom of the trans...
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: manual trans question - 06/19/11 02:18 PM
Quote:
So I went back under the car tonight doing some clean-up and I thought I'd feel around the bottom of the trans for any metal, and what do you know...... the ball!!
So for the heck of it, I assembled the reverse detent mechanism and the reverse arm now has the detents .... now I have to wonder why the ball was at the bottom of the trans...
more than likely someone pulled or installed the detent housing incorrectly , it has to go in and come out in a certain order or the ball ends up in the bottom of the case .
Posted By: EF8aar
Re: manual trans question - 06/19/11 03:43 PM
The way I temporarily reinstalled the ball is; after the big threaded sleeve was installed, I inserted the ball, then the spring, rotated the shaft til I got a detent and installed the cap. Everything felt good after that, I have my two detent positions that I didn't have before. Is that about right?
I'm still going to order up another ball, (maybe this one is wrong one or slightly out of round) and the gaskets...
got the 80w-90 GL-4 oil, NAPA was kind enough to order it for me (Sta-Lube)... thanks for all the help
Posted By: dvw
Re: manual trans question - 06/20/11 03:08 AM
Quote:
So I went back under the car tonight doing some clean-up and I thought I'd feel around the bottom of the trans for any metal, and what do you know...... the ball!!
So for the heck of it, I assembled the reverse detent mechanism and the reverse arm now has the detents .... now I have to wonder why the ball was at the bottom of the trans...
I wondered about this when 1st reading this post. If the detent is removed in the car and the lever gets moved the ball can fall in. This will cause the problem you have. Do'nt ask how I know about it.
Doug
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: manual trans question - 06/20/11 01:41 PM
Quote:
Quote:
So I went back under the car tonight doing some clean-up and I thought I'd feel around the bottom of the trans for any metal, and what do you know...... the ball!!
So for the heck of it, I assembled the reverse detent mechanism and the reverse arm now has the detents .... now I have to wonder why the ball was at the bottom of the trans...
I wondered about this when 1st reading this post. If the detent is removed in the car and the lever gets moved the ball can fall in. This will cause the problem you have. Don't ask how I know about it.
Doug
The ball is held in place by the big hollow bolt that goes in the trans case first which holds the ball and spring in place, if you remove it without first pulling the ball and spring the ball, and probably the spring, falls into the trans .
Posted By: EF8aar
Re: manual trans question - 06/20/11 04:19 PM
And that makes perfect sense.
Posted By: EF8aar
Re: manual trans question - 06/24/11 09:17 PM
Success!
I want to thank all of you for making my trans fix an easy one. I put a new reverse detent ball in, and filled the trans with GL-4 rated oil and the problem is gone. The trans shifts great and I have no problem getting into second!!
Thank you all for everything.
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: manual trans question - 06/24/11 09:55 PM
