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TTI's, Remflex Gaskets and Torsion bar hitting header

Posted By: moparrulzzz

TTI's, Remflex Gaskets and Torsion bar hitting header - 05/15/11 05:46 PM

Installing my front suspension this morning and my Left ( Pass. Side) TB is hitting the header. Is this common? I went to TTI sight and they make no mention of TB issues.
I do have the thicker Remflex gaskets, could this be a possible cause of the contact?
I need to pull my header as there is no way to dimple this in the place its hitting.
What is the best way to put a dent in my ceramic coated headers, wont this muck up the coating?
I am attaching a pic of where the #2 tube is making contact, I marked the area and the TB is in the pic straight back.
I never thought I would have a TB issue. 1.00 bars isnt that big of a increase in circumference!!

Posted By: Neil

Re: TTI's, Remflex Gaskets and Torsion bar hitting header - 05/15/11 05:54 PM

I'd try a thinner header gasket before I took a hammer to my headers. You could probably omit the gasket altogether and just apply a thin coating of copper hi-temp rtv instead.

Another alternative might be to try adding a shim under the engine mount move the engine over enough to get it to clear?
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: TTI's, Remflex Gaskets and Torsion bar hitting header - 05/15/11 05:56 PM

Those headers are soooooo shiny, I cant see where they are hitting!
I have 1 inch MP t-bars on the Charger with 2" TTI pipes. Mine clear fine. You may get some room by loosening the motor mount brackets and shifting the motor around a little. Standing from the front, if you raise the driver side and lower the pass. side, it will pull the headers away from the pass side T bar. I know that the motor should sit level in the engine bay, but if its out of level by 1/4" to make the pipes fit, it may never be noticed.
Finally, BELIEVE the instructions regarding the discoloring of the headers! To preserve the nice finish, do NOT break in a fresh cam or engine with these headers. Use a crappy set or iron manifolds, then put these headers back on. The heat of the break-in will fade and dull out that nice shine.
Posted By: A990

Re: TTI's, Remflex Gaskets and Torsion bar hitting header - 05/15/11 06:44 PM

You say its hitting only one TB, right? If so, can you shift the motor a tad to the driver side? I'm pretty sure the coating will crack, and thats never a good thing. As far as shine goes it will dull with age and use. Our Dakota has 5 years on its headers and they almost look like magnesium.

Remflex gaskets are wonderful
Posted By: GomangoCuda

Re: TTI's, Remflex Gaskets and Torsion bar hitting header - 05/15/11 06:51 PM

Read what this says about engine location before you start beating on things. http://www.ttiexhaust.com/PDF/II_TTI440-200.pdf
Posted By: moparrulzzz

Re: TTI's, Remflex Gaskets and Torsion bar hitting header - 05/15/11 07:32 PM

Quote:

I'd try a thinner header gasket before I took a hammer to my headers. You could probably omit the gasket altogether and just apply a thin coating of copper hi-temp rtv instead.

Another alternative might be to try adding a shim under the engine mount move the engine over enough to get it to clear?



I removed the remflex and tried the supplied TTI gasket...no go.
Going with no gasket still will give me not enough clearance.
Posted By: moparrulzzz

Re: TTI's, Remflex Gaskets and Torsion bar hitting header - 05/15/11 07:34 PM

Quote:

Those headers are soooooo shiny, I cant see where they are hitting!
I have 1 inch MP t-bars on the Charger with 2" TTI pipes. Mine clear fine. You may get some room by loosening the motor mount brackets and shifting the motor around a little. Standing from the front, if you raise the driver side and lower the pass. side, it will pull the headers away from the pass side T bar. I know that the motor should sit level in the engine bay, but if its out of level by 1/4" to make the pipes fit, it may never be noticed.
Finally, BELIEVE the instructions regarding the discoloring of the headers! To preserve the nice finish, do NOT break in a fresh cam or engine with these headers. Use a crappy set or iron manifolds, then put these headers back on. The heat of the break-in will fade and dull out that nice shine.



There are two bleck lines on the #2 tube that is were the header in contacting the TB.
The motor is broke in so no worries on the heat damage!
Posted By: moparrulzzz

Re: TTI's, Remflex Gaskets and Torsion bar hitting header - 05/15/11 07:35 PM

Quote:

You say its hitting only one TB, right? If so, can you shift the motor a tad to the driver side? I'm pretty sure the coating will crack, and thats never a good thing. As far as shine goes it will dull with age and use. Our Dakota has 5 years on its headers and they almost look like magnesium.

Remflex gaskets are wonderful



Yes the left(pass. side) is the only one hitting. Plenty of room on the right.

Just noticed I am posting the sides as I am in front looking..duh!!
Posted By: moparrulzzz

Re: TTI's, Remflex Gaskets and Torsion bar hitting header - 05/15/11 07:40 PM

Quote:

Read what this says about engine location before you start beating on things. http://www.ttiexhaust.com/PDF/II_TTI440-200.pdf



Thnx for the info going back out to measure.
Can anyone tell me the easiest way to shift the motor to the right(standing in front looking at it) 1/4"?
It seems if I put a shim/washer under the left mount it would raise the left and cause more contact.And if I shim the right just the right side will raise and the left will still be in same position. Or am I looking at this all wrong? I need about a 1/8" to get the bar to slide in the socket.
Posted By: moparrulzzz

Re: TTI's, Remflex Gaskets and Torsion bar hitting header - 05/15/11 08:13 PM

Ok just measured center of crank to top of K..5.25" per TTI site, thats ok.
Measured center of crank to frame rails
Pass. side 14.50"
Driver side 16.75" differnce of 2.25". TTI says I should have a 2.5" differnce.
I am 1/4" off which is a little more than I need to clear the TB.
I need to move the engine 1/4" to the driver, whats the best way to do this?
I am running Schumacher mounts if it matters. TTI said they are fine with my headers.
Posted By: A990

Re: TTI's, Remflex Gaskets and Torsion bar hitting header - 05/15/11 08:19 PM

What kind of k-member?

If it were me, I'd hook up the hoist, pull the motor mount bolts, and lift the engine enough to be able to wiggle it and see what develops.

However if spool mounts are involved, I don't think much options are available.
Posted By: moparrulzzz

Re: TTI's, Remflex Gaskets and Torsion bar hitting header - 05/15/11 08:34 PM

Quote:

What kind of k-member?

If it were me, I'd hook up the hoist, pull the motor mount bolts, and lift the engine enough to be able to wiggle it and see what develops.

However if spool mounts are involved, I don't think much options are available.



Just a stock K Frame, which bolts are you referring. The ones that secure the mounts to the K Frame. Or the the Motor Mount to Mounting bracket?
Posted By: JohnRR

Re: TTI's, Remflex Gaskets and Torsion bar hitting header - 05/15/11 08:53 PM

Quote:

Ok just measured center of crank to top of K..5.25" per TTI site, thats ok.
Measured center of crank to frame rails
Pass. side 14.50"
Driver side 16.75" differnce of 2.25". TTI says I should have a 2.5" differnce.
I am 1/4" off which is a little more than I need to clear the TB.
I need to move the engine 1/4" to the driver, whats the best way to do this?
I am running Schumacher mounts if it matters. TTI said they are fine with my headers.



What schumacher mounts ? What heads ?

Have you tired to loosen the bolts holding the engine brackets to the block and shift the engine over?
Posted By: A990

Re: TTI's, Remflex Gaskets and Torsion bar hitting header - 05/16/11 12:20 AM

Motor mounts to k-member, and johnrr's point is a good one. Get em all loose, there's a decent amount of wiggle room to be had
Posted By: moparrulzzz

Re: TTI's, Remflex Gaskets and Torsion bar hitting header - 05/16/11 01:32 AM

I have the Schumacher Poly Lock mounts and Stealth heads.
I have the mounting brackets loose, the main bolt that attaches the motor mount to the k frame loose.
I have the hoist attached and took the weight of motor off the mounts, I have pried on both sides and the motor falls right back into place when I lower the motor down.
I had a helper pumping the hoist while I was manipulating the motor. I even loosened up the K-frame bolts to make sure they were centered.
After more measuring I am close to the specs TTI lists on their site for engine location.
After closer looking by both of us we have come to the conclusion the engine has to be too high on the pass side.
Could these motor mounts perhaps be the culprit??
If this isnt the problem I see no other way to remedy this then to beat on them and I DONT want to resort to that!!
Posted By: A990

Re: TTI's, Remflex Gaskets and Torsion bar hitting header - 05/16/11 02:32 AM

OK, dont start beating just yet

If you oval the holes on the passenger side mount where it bolts to the block that will lower things. Maybe removing that mount completely, and set the motor so it clears will tell you if my idea might work.

To me it would be better than "getting medieval" on that awesome coating.

(Patience wearing thin yet? )
Posted By: Sport440

Re: TTI's, Remflex Gaskets and Torsion bar hitting header - 05/16/11 03:08 AM

Yep!, Even a slight 1/16 adjustment at the motor mount can move a lower header pipe 1/8 or so at the torsion bar level.
Posted By: jbc426

Re: TTI's, Remflex Gaskets and Torsion bar hitting header - 05/16/11 03:09 AM

I had a similar fittment/clearance issues with Dynatech Mighty mount motormounts & TTI's on my 1970 e-body with 440. My shaker scoop was hitting on the hood slightly too. I didn't need to bend my headers, but I wrapped the torsion bar in heat barrier fabric. There was about 1/4 of an inch clearance after everything settled in.


The header/ torsion bar clearance was close, but once I had it running it settled in a bit and had more clearance than when I bolted it in. I think the engine's torque helped it settle too.

In the end, I ended up pulling the motor to change the oil pan for that road race pan, to address this motor mount issue, polish the engine compartment and change to a stronger starter.

I'm not sure about the Schumaker mounts, but can you elongate the holes on the braket to let the mount slide upwards more and allow the motor to drop into the k-member more?

When you are installing the metal part of the motor mount to the block, be sure to push it upwards when tightening it. There is some slop that can be taken up to lower the block into the k-member when it sets down on it.

My headers overheated on initial start-up too and lost the shine on the first 8 to 12 inches of the primary tubes too. Bummed, I tried touching them up with the high-heat bbq silver, which wouldn't be bad if it was for a daily driver, but it's not shiney.

Finally though, I ended up taking my entire exhaust from head to tail including mufflers over to Sanderson's Headers and had them recoat and re-bake the whole system inside and out with their satin black ceramacoat. It looks awesome, especially with polished stainles tips.

Keep trying until you get everything just right while you have the motor out. Not much can be done once it's in the car and running.

In this pic, you can see how the stud was too long on the Dynatech mount. They sent me a new set, no questions asked and the stud was shorter. I also pushed the braket up when I bolted it to the block. The motor is still out, but I'll re-post once I have everything back together.

Attached picture 6635212-Enginemount005(Large).jpg
Posted By: moparrulzzz

Re: TTI's, Remflex Gaskets and Torsion bar hitting header - 05/16/11 04:10 AM

Quote:



(Patience wearing thin yet? )



Patience left about 3 PM today!! Tomorrow when I get off I am pulling the complete mount and seeing about elongating the holes.
I hope that might work. It has taken me 7 yrs to get to this point and I don't need this!!
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: TTI's, Remflex Gaskets and Torsion bar hitting header - 05/16/11 05:39 AM

Quote:



Have you tired to loosen the bolts holding the engine brackets to the block and shift the engine over?



I asked this same question.
Posted By: jbc426

Re: TTI's, Remflex Gaskets and Torsion bar hitting header - 05/16/11 08:28 AM

If you do dimple it, won't it be hidden by the TB?
Posted By: pinkduster

Re: TTI's, Remflex Gaskets and Torsion bar hitting header - 05/16/11 01:14 PM

You'll get about a 1/4" of sag out of that right mount in a couple of months.
Posted By: DJVCuda

Re: TTI's, Remflex Gaskets and Torsion bar hitting header - 05/16/11 02:39 PM

Quote:

You'll get about a 1/4" of sag out of that right mount in a couple of months.



I doubt it with poly-loc's

Quote:

I have the Schumacher Poly Lock mounts

Posted By: pinkduster

Re: TTI's, Remflex Gaskets and Torsion bar hitting header - 05/17/11 04:05 AM

Quote:

Quote:

You'll get about a 1/4" of sag out of that right mount in a couple of months.



I doubt it with poly-loc's

Quote:

I have the Schumacher Poly Lock mounts





Uh, I have Schumacher Poly Lock mounts and after a couple months and maybe 20 passes down the track, I had to make some shims for my sagged right side mount to keep the oil pan (aftermarket) off the centerlink. My next move will be to solids.
Posted By: moparrulzzz

Re: TTI's, Remflex Gaskets and Torsion bar hitting header - 05/18/11 02:29 AM

Well I had a long conversation with TTI tonight. I explained what was going on, parts I was using and gave him the measurments that they say needs to be achieved so the headers will fit. They say there is no reason for the contact. He doesn't think it's the mounts.
They are now thinking maybe a 440 flange was welded to a 383 set of pipes. Due to my engine seeming to be to high.
I am keeping my fingers crossed that that is the case. They are calling me back tomorrow with some measurments for me to check.
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: TTI's, Remflex Gaskets and Torsion bar hitting header - 05/18/11 08:14 AM

Quote:


They are now thinking maybe a 440 flange was welded to a 383 set of pipes.



This doesn't sound right. The 383 and 440 use the same heads, same exhaust port sizes, same bolt pattern....
ALL the headers individual pipes make a 90 degree bend toward the flange, so the flange itself has no angle. They are separate pieces with a flat face.
I have heard of several cases where the header manufacturers are adamant that their products are NOT to blame for fitment issues.
YOUR car has worn motor mounts.
YOUR car must have been in a wreck.
YOU must not know what you are doing.
YOUR car has power steering, an automatic OR a 4 speed, Your radio is too loud. The instructions are in Spanish.......
NO company wants to admit that their products are faulty.
I have a friend that is trying to install Hedmans in a 73 Dart 360. Fitment problems galore on the drivers side. Customer service was of no help.
The TTI pipes are some of the best made, so to have problems with them means that something IS amiss here. If the engine is mounted correctly, the trans mount bolts up as it should, the car has never been wrecked, the torsion bar isn't bent, the lower control arm bushing isnt shredded, (Allowing the LCA to shift away from its correct position)Then...... maybe the header WAS built wrong.
Posted By: GomangoCuda

Re: TTI's, Remflex Gaskets and Torsion bar hitting header - 05/18/11 05:33 PM

Quote:

Your radio is too loud.


Don't forget - "If you turn up the radio you can't hear the rattle".
Posted By: pishta

Re: TTI's, Remflex Gaskets and Torsion bar hitting header - 05/18/11 05:48 PM

Headers can be built specifically for a B or an RB:Case in point. I had a set of Pro-Parts headers that DIDNT fit a 383, but fit a 440 just fine. The 383 hit the header at the pan rail, the 440 didnt. So not all B/RB headers are the same, but should be! The flange MIGHT be specific if the kickout is less (smaller radii for the 90 bend out the port) for a 440 than a 383, that makes a little sense as the 440 head is farther outboard than the 383 and space may be taken into consideration when they design them (a larger radii is always better than a small radii when it comes to bends)
Posted By: jbc426

Re: TTI's, Remflex Gaskets and Torsion bar hitting header - 05/18/11 06:55 PM

"This doesn't sound right. The 383 and 440 use the same heads, same exhaust port sizes, same bolt pattern...."

An RB block sets the heads farther up and significantly wider out than a B motor.

The 440 is an RB = raised block, so the heads do sit farther away from the crank centerline. That can make a measurable difference in the length of pipe drop needed to get them down and away from the torsion bar in some applications, like B & E bodies.

The flange and shapes of the tubes coming out of the head are the same for 383 & 440, but the tube drop length to the collector is different. The collector essencially sits lower than a 383 collector on some brands, like TTI's. The amount lower is roughly equal to the difference in the blocks between RB's & B blocks.

Attached picture 6639559-UndercarrigeReassembly020(Large).jpg
Posted By: cogen80

Re: TTI's, Remflex Gaskets and Torsion bar hitting header - 05/18/11 07:06 PM

Quote:

Headers can be built specifically for a B or an RB:Case in point. I had a set of Pro-Parts headers that DIDNT fit a 383, but fit a 440 just fine. The 383 hit the header at the pan rail, the 440 didnt. So not all B/RB headers are the same, but should be! The flange MIGHT be specific if the kickout is less (smaller radii for the 90 bend out the port) for a 440 than a 383, that makes a little sense as the 440 head is farther outboard than the 383 and space may be taken into consideration when they design them (a larger radii is always better than a small radii when it comes to bends)





those pro parts on a 383 should have ht the steering also. its close with a 440 and with the lower 383 i would think they would hit.
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: TTI's, Remflex Gaskets and Torsion bar hitting header - 05/18/11 07:19 PM

Quote:

"This doesn't sound right. The 383 and 440 use the same heads, same exhaust port sizes, same bolt pattern...."

An RB block sets the heads farther up and significantly wider out than a B motor.

The 440 is an RB = raised block, so the heads do sit farther away from the crank centerline. That can make a measurable difference in the length of pipe drop needed to get them down and away from the torsion bar in some applications, like B & E bodies.

The flange and shapes of the tubes coming out of the head are the same for 383 & 440, but the tube drop length to the collector is different. The collector essencially sits lower than a 383 collector on some brands, like TTI's. The amount lower is roughly equal to the difference in the blocks between RB's & B blocks.



Thanks. I know all of that. MY point was that the 3/8" FLAT flange should be the same for ALL the TTI big block headers. To blame the fitment on the flange isn't sensible. Maybe the OP had a communication misunderstanding with the TTI people. The bends up near the flange would need to be shorter and tighter for the same headers to have the same exact clearance down below.
Posted By: jbc426

Re: TTI's, Remflex Gaskets and Torsion bar hitting header - 05/18/11 10:56 PM

Yah, I wonder what it will turn out to really be.
Posted By: moparrulzzz

Re: TTI's, Remflex Gaskets and Torsion bar hitting header - 05/19/11 02:29 AM

Let me be clear on my earlier post about a 440 flange being welded to a set of 383 pipes.
TTI stamps the flanges with engine size/tube size...mine 440178.
They are thinking a flange STAMPED 440178 made it into the line when they were assmbling headers for a 383 and was not caught. Hence being sold as a 440 header when in fact it was for a 383.
TTI website says their 383/400 and 440 headers are different.
TTI sent me some measurements to check, I did and called them in and it further leads them to believe this.
My passenger side header is now boxed up and they are paying shipping to make 100% sure.
If it is indeed a 383 header they are sending me a correct 440.
We will see!!
Posted By: A990

Re: TTI's, Remflex Gaskets and Torsion bar hitting header - 05/19/11 02:39 AM

WOW
Good for em to check into it. I've gone through plenty of right box/wrong part fiascos myself
Posted By: 2abodymcodes

Re: TTI's, Remflex Gaskets and Torsion bar hitting header - 05/19/11 02:58 AM

i think your car is haunted. it does not want to be finished. it does not want to leave your warm comfortable garage.
Posted By: moparrulzzz

Re: TTI's, Remflex Gaskets and Torsion bar hitting header - 05/19/11 03:30 AM

Starting to think that myself, go from one problem to another!!!
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