Advise please on stock 440 head rebuild

Posted By: Furious440

Advise please on stock 440 head rebuild - 04/29/11 12:38 AM

Hello anybody. I plan to have a set of "346" heads with less than a 100K miles rebuilt for my 1971 440 engine. What should I have the machine shop do for a "stock" rebuild?
I have planned for magnaflux, resurface if needed, new springs, retainers, locks, seals, hardened valve seats and rocker shaft assemblies. Should I replace the valves? Or just have a valve job done? I can't afford stainless valves. Should I replace the exhaust studs and/or freeze plugs? I heard the studs can be a nightmare. What about gasket matching? Bowl blending? I heard the head can be modified for better valve cover gasket sealing?

Thanks in advance to any and all who reply

Posted By: wicked

Re: Advise please on stock 440 head rebuild - 04/29/11 01:03 AM

the heads are probably going to need complete going over, guides, valves etc. Bowl work, gasket match, springs , going to put you fairly close to the heads posted above

Posted By: Mr.Yuck

Re: Advise please on stock 440 head rebuild - 04/29/11 02:09 AM

call summit and get their rebuid kit...and small cam. then cal 440 source and order a set of heads.

Posted By: Furious440

Re: Advise please on stock 440 head rebuild - 04/29/11 04:01 AM

Wow

Thanks for all the replies! I am on a tight budget. I want to keep this stock and numbers matching. If the original valves are not bad, should I just have them ground or should I replace them? If I do replace the valves I will be using Elgin Industries steel replacement valves. Will it make a difference because I'm having hardened exhaust seats installed?

And just what is "bowl blending"???

Posted By: DaytonaTurbo

Re: Advise please on stock 440 head rebuild - 04/29/11 04:55 AM

You can have a cyl head guy give you an estimate on doing your heads before you commit. If he takes a look at them he will be able to tell you what all needs replacing. Really depends on what kind of shape the valve guides and stems are in. Usually they need replacing because the valve guides and stems both wear.

Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Advise please on stock 440 head rebuild - 04/29/11 05:53 AM

Most Fel Pro gasket sets will include the Perma Torque blue head gaskets. They are .039 thick when compressed. If I remember correctly, the stock steel head gaskets were .020 thick. If you want to maintain your compression ratio, you will need to either mill the heads .019 OR use steel gaskets again.

Posted By: wicked

Re: Advise please on stock 440 head rebuild - 04/29/11 09:49 AM

Bowl blending usually involves a throat cut and hand blending the surface below the valve, How much depends on how much dollars you have

Posted By: Mr.Yuck

Re: Advise please on stock 440 head rebuild - 04/29/11 12:31 PM

Quote:

You can have a cyl head guy give you an estimate on doing your heads before you commit. If he takes a look at them he will be able to tell you what all needs replacing. Really depends on what kind of shape the valve guides and stems are in. Usually they need replacing because the valve guides and stems both wear.

what he said, also look on here for somebodys old iron heads. I got a killer deal on some a few years ago w/ good flow numbers, never even bolted on. I'd use a steel shim gasket. It will give you better compression. The stock replacement pistons will net you about 9:1 on a good day. Will you be doing all the work?

Posted By: Dodgem

Re: Advise please on stock 440 head rebuild - 04/29/11 02:07 PM

Quote:

Wow Thanks for all the replies! I am on a tight budget. I want to keep this stock and numbers matching. If the original valves are not bad, should I just have them ground or should I replace them? If I do replace the valves I will be using Elgin Industries steel replacement valves. Will it make a difference because I'm having hardened exhaust seats installed?

And just what is "bowl blending"???

Well if you break the head off a 40 year old exhaust valve that has been heat cycled a 100,000 times and is weakened, stressed and plum worn out you will see what a few dollars saved you!!!!

I have and it ain't pretty. Course I got to build a brand new motor heads and all!

Posted By: Furious440

Re: Advise please on stock 440 head rebuild - 04/29/11 05:06 PM

OK! Heads have been checked by the machine shop and they are in good shape. They have 70K original miles on them but the car sat for 20 years. I am going to have the valves replaced with steel replacements. New bronze guides installed. New springs, retainers and locks. Heads surfaced only as needed and gasket matched. Hardened valve seats installed.

Am I missing anything? Is there something else I should do for a stock rebuild of the heads? Are Fel-Pro's valve stem seals any good? What about the valve cover gasket surface modification?

Thanks everyone for your help!

Posted By: Mr.Yuck

Re: Advise please on stock 440 head rebuild - 04/29/11 05:10 PM

Quote:

OK! Heads have been checked by the machine shop and they are in good shape. They have 70K original miles on them but the car sat for 20 years. I am going to have the valves replaced with steel replacements. New bronze guides installed. New springs, retainers and locks. Heads surfaced only as needed and gasket matched. Hardened valve seats installed.

Am I missing anything? Is there something else I should do for a stock rebuild of the heads? Are Fel-Pro's valve stem seals any good? What about the valve cover gasket surface modification?

Thanks everyone for your help!

Did you order the Fel-Pro gasket kit? Summit has one too for much less. Don't forget MOST kits DO NOT include the valley pan. As for the v-cover area...I wouldn't worry about that much.

Posted By: dem440c

Re: Advise please on stock 440 head rebuild - 04/29/11 05:35 PM

you mentioned hardened seats... first of all- the book says 346 heads have hardened seats (for what that is worth), second of all- I've always been skeptical of the need for hardened seats, third- installing hardened seats makes me nervous for fear of dropping the seat and the calamity that would ensue.

My little anecdote on the subject- I've put tens of thousands of miles on 60's headed engines without hardened seats using straight unleaded gas, including one engine that I put around 40k on top of the 110k that was on it when I bought it. I'm presuming that for much of its life before I got the car it was also deprived of leaded gas or additives. When I went to rebuild it, the seats didn't have any abnormal wear compared to any other 150k big block head and from then on I quit worrying about it. My point is just that from my experiences the risk of damage from running unleaded gas without having hardened seats doesn't justify the cost and risk of installing hardened seats. Feel free to apply your own judgment.

Posted By: JohnRR

Re: Advise please on stock 440 head rebuild - 04/29/11 06:04 PM

It will be easy to check if the seat are hardened or not when the shop does the valve job , if they are hard the guy doing it will know . I had a set of 452's taken out to 1.81 on the exh and they didn't need to have hard seat inserts installed .

If the heads have had a few VJ's done the valve maybe be recessed , only way to fix it is hard seats or install larger valves.

I trust the guy installing the seats in my heads that he is doing them right.

Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Advise please on stock 440 head rebuild - 04/29/11 06:38 PM

My machinst has always recommended installing hardened seats. He says that the induction hardening only goes a few thousandths into the metal, and the valve job often cuts PAST the hardened part.

Posted By: JohnRR

Re: Advise please on stock 440 head rebuild - 04/29/11 07:29 PM

Quote:

My machinst has always recommended installing hardened seats. He says that the induction hardening only goes a few thousandths into the metal, and the valve job often cuts PAST the hardened part.

The above heads I mentioned were done by member fast68plymouth , I told him to put in hard seats and he called me and said he didn't feel they were necessary because the heads were still hard in the seat area when he touched up the VJ that was done originally by Paul Rossi when I first bought the heads back in 1989 ....

FWIW

Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Advise please on stock 440 head rebuild - 04/29/11 10:38 PM

Regarding the issue of whether or not to install seats:
I am smart enough to admit that I know far LESS than my trusted machinist. Looking at his shop and surroundings, he does enough business to keep busy without resorting to suggesting unnecessary services. Thats my take on it anyways.

Posted By: Furious440

Re: Advise please on stock 440 head rebuild - 04/29/11 11:31 PM

The heads have never been off before. This is a one owner car that was parked 20 years ago.

The machine shop does not think that replacing the valves is necessary. But will do whatever I want.

I did not think that "346" heads from 1971 would have hardened exhaust valve seats?

Posted By: ireland383

Re: Advise please on stock 440 head rebuild - 04/30/11 02:05 AM

Mine had the hardened seats.

Posted By: wicked

Re: Advise please on stock 440 head rebuild - 04/30/11 07:45 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Wow Thanks for all the replies! I am on a tight budget. I want to keep this stock and numbers matching. If the original valves are not bad, should I just have them ground or should I replace them? If I do replace the valves I will be using Elgin Industries steel replacement valves. Will it make a difference because I'm having hardened exhaust seats installed?

And just what is "bowl blending"???

Well if you break the head off a 40 year old exhaust valve that has been heat cycled a 100,000 times and is weakened, stressed and plum worn out you will see what a few dollars saved you!!!!

I have and it ain't pretty. Course I got to build a brand new motor heads and all!

Solid advice, they have been known to get brittle, alot of risk vs. cost

Posted By: 2boltmain

Re: Advise please on stock 440 head rebuild - 04/30/11 02:22 PM

Do you care to tell us the price to have your heads redone? I know its very EASY to tally up $600-700 in new parts and labor. Thats why some on this board recommend the areo heads with the plan to have them examined and corrected.

Posted By: Furious440

Re: Advise please on stock 440 head rebuild - 04/30/11 03:16 PM

Well, the machine shop quoted $400 for labor.
I purchased all my own parts which has ran about $400 as well for valves, springs, retainers, locks, seals, rockers with shafts, freeze plugs and studs. That does not include all of the engine gaskets. I am resealing the engine.

I do not want to go with aftermarket or any other heads as the goal is to keep everything original.

So far, no one been able to answer my question about modifying the head for better valve cover gasket sealing?

Posted By: ireland383

Re: Advise please on stock 440 head rebuild - 04/30/11 03:46 PM

I used the Felpro cork gaskets and no problems with mine. Are you using stock valve covers? The key is to not over tighten them.

Posted By: Furious440

Re: Advise please on stock 440 head rebuild - 04/30/11 04:21 PM

Quote:

I used the Felpro cork gaskets and no problems with mine. Are you using stock valve covers? The key is to not over tighten them.

Yes. The valve covers and everything else is all stock. I will use an inch-pound torque wrench when it comes time to put on the valve covers.

Posted By: Dodgem

Re: Advise please on stock 440 head rebuild - 04/30/11 04:36 PM

These help
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/PRO-66003/
there is lotso different types
http://www.summitracing.com/search/?keyword=valve+cover+hold+downs&page=3

I like these gaskets
http://www.summitracing.com/search/Part-...er/?Ns=Rank|Asc
and i like to liberally coat both sides with Right Stuff stick to valve cover then install snug lightly leave over night then tighten.

I don't think 71 heads had hardened seats

Advise please on stock 440 head rebuild