Are there any tricks to help seating rings...

Posted By: BloFish

Are there any tricks to help seating rings... - 03/18/11 01:06 AM

Buddy has an engine that sat around for a while, while the car was being built. Engine runs fine, just low on compression due to the rings never fully seating. I've heard their are a few tricks to help seat them even after having run the car for 200 + miles.

The scariest trick that was told to me was pouring a teaspoon of Ajax into each spark plug hole, then firing it up

Anyone have any tried and true tricks of the trade, other than tearing it down

Posted By: HemiSportFury

Re: Are there any tricks to help seating rings... - 03/18/11 02:12 AM

Not Ajax.

Bon Ami, sprinkled down the carb as the engine was running.

At lease that what I used to hear when I first started working on cars, about 50+ years ago!

Never tried it and wouldn't recommend it. Run it hard or tear it down.

Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: Are there any tricks to help seating rings... - 03/18/11 02:25 AM

Quote:

Run it hard

X2 and read "breakin secrets" at www.mototuneusa.com (5 minute read) & no bon ami/ajax

Posted By: Strawdawg

Re: Are there any tricks to help seating rings... - 03/18/11 02:29 AM

Bon Ami was for chrome rings back in 1960. I never tried it tho'

Modern rings either break in during the first few minutes, or they don't. It depends on the quality of the cylinder wall hone as far as I am concerned.

Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Are there any tricks to help seating rings... - 03/18/11 07:18 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Run it hard

X2 and read "breakin secrets" at www.mototuneusa.com (5 minute read) & no bon ami/ajax

I read this link posted by Rapid Robert and first thought... "Easy for THEM to recommend I wail on a fresh motor... Its not THEIR engine." It began to sink in after reading similar arguements elsewhere. I posted a question.. "How long do I have to wait until I can Peel out?" Look it up. NOBODY suggested to baby it for 500 miles like it says in many old school owners manuals. It seemed abusive to me at first. I sold new cars in the 80s and since then, I had the imprint in my brain that new or rebuilt components need to be driven with care.
In 2004 when I built the 440/493, I drove it REAL easy during the first 500 miles, then changed the oil. In the next 2500 miles, it used oil, got slower and eventually started smoking . I pulled the motor out to hone it and put in new rings.

Posted By: torkrules

Re: Are there any tricks to help seating rings... - 03/20/11 03:13 PM

The first thing they do on a dyno is run the engine for about 15 minutes with a slight load on it at about 2500. this gets everything up to temp, fluid leaks checked, timing set, cam break in if flat tappet.

After that its an all out assault. After that, the rings are broken in (or not if there was a problem)

Posted By: abodyjoe

Re: Are there any tricks to help seating rings... - 03/20/11 03:37 PM

was always told that if you break a motor in like a wuss it will run like a wuss....lol

i always break the cam in. make sure there are no leaks and or problems. then i drive it kinda easy to the main road which is maybe 2 miles away then its hammer down.

Posted By: 5spdcuda

Re: Are there any tricks to help seating rings... - 03/20/11 03:43 PM

I agree that proper cylinder wall prep is the single most important factor. By proper I mean that besides the obvious ie. perfectly round with no taper that the finish should be appropriate for the type of rings used. Most modern moly filled rings like a pretty smooth finish. Excessive oiling of the rings and/or too gentile a break in can cause glazing and excessive oil consumption. Putting the engine under a brief load in the higher gears and then letting off the gas quickly can help seat the rings. Sometimes the use of a non-detergent oil for the first 100 miles or so can help with rings that are slow to seat. Regarding compression and oil consumption, I have seen engines with good leak down and compression #s that used oil. I've also seen just the opposite, very little oil consumption, but poor test results. Good luck.

Posted By: dOrk !

Re: Are there any tricks to help seating rings... - 03/20/11 03:52 PM

WHO HERE likes a dingle-berry hone ?

Posted By: buildanother

Re: Are there any tricks to help seating rings... - 03/20/11 03:55 PM

Great glaze breaker. Have 2 different sized ones.

Posted By: dOrk !

Re: Are there any tricks to help seating rings... - 03/20/11 04:00 PM

WHICH grits ? ... what brand and price?

I have a MH 413(dished pistons) that I am putting some std bore(flat-top) pistons in-it. NICE bores ...all I think is that the bores need to be scuffed-up a tad.

Posted By: Challenger 1

Re: Are there any tricks to help seating rings... - 03/20/11 04:01 PM

Use a real hone...if you want your rings to seat correctly.

Posted By: Cudajon

Re: Are there any tricks to help seating rings... - 03/20/11 04:06 PM

Built many race engines for the roundy round guys. Break the glaze with a dingle berry (i like that name) hone. Start the engine, break in the cam and lifters and go racing. Everytime breakin an engine low and slow they ran that way. The only real problem is that on a fresh engine built to stock specs the bearing clearances are usually tighter and you really need a good oil for the first hour, then drain and go.

Posted By: Mr.Yuck

Re: Are there any tricks to help seating rings... - 03/20/11 04:26 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Run it hard

X2 and read "breakin secrets" at www.mototuneusa.com (5 minute read) & no bon ami/ajax

buddy told me he does 4-5 burns out to seat the rings. They are either going to seat or not. I burned up the #3 on my supercharged 440 TWICE. Both time I honed the wall real quick then dropped the piston,,, just drove it. Never had any problems.

Posted By: buildanother

Re: Are there any tricks to help seating rings... - 03/20/11 04:27 PM

Quote:

WHICH grits ? ... what brand and price?

Don't recall exact grit, they were right off the tool truck, but seemed to be on heavy grit side.

I have a MH 413(dished pistons) that I am putting some std bore(flat-top) pistons in-it. NICE bores ...all I think is that the bores need to be scuffed-up a tad.

Posted By: dOrk !

Re: Are there any tricks to help seating rings... - 03/20/11 04:29 PM

Quote:

Use a real hone...if you want your rings to seat correctly.

Is someone here OFFERING a loaner ?

Posted By: buildanother

Re: Are there any tricks to help seating rings... - 03/20/11 04:36 PM

It's a SUNNEN too! Aren't all our garages filled with inexpensive equipment like that?

Posted By: dOrk !

Re: Are there any tricks to help seating rings... - 03/20/11 04:44 PM

Quote:

It's a SUNNEN too! Aren't all our garages filled with inexpensive equipment like that?

I do HEAR YOU ..... the only people that can afford long-dollar stuff like this ....

...... are energy REsellers ! (don't I wish)

Posted By: Challenger 1

Re: Are there any tricks to help seating rings... - 03/20/11 04:49 PM

Quote:

Quote:

It's a SUNNEN too! Aren't all our garages filled with inexpensive equipment like that?

I do HEAR YOU ..... the only people that can afford long-dollar stuff like this ....

...... are energy REsellers ! (don't I wish)

Nope...it comes from getting up everyday at 5:30 AM everyday for 26 years now and making sure 5-10 guys have work for the day. And then working smart all day long for a long time. That's where it come from.

I'm at work right now, wrenching on dirty greasy trucks so I don't have to pay someone else to do it, That's how I work smart to make money.

Where you at? you making at money today?

Posted By: dOrk !

Re: Are there any tricks to help seating rings... - 03/20/11 04:53 PM

... you mean it is not nearly TRIPLING their cost of LPG ... like they are doing to little-old-ladies up-here in Michigan ?

Posted By: dOrk !

Re: Are there any tricks to help seating rings... - 03/20/11 05:27 PM

Quote:

Where you at? you making at money today?

Sorry ...I OVERlooked this part ......

At ? ... my tool box is beaucoup SHORT of what you have !! and the Craftsman rollaway I have I bought at the Mopar Nats ....on Sunday JUST before closing for 50 beans ..

Me making $$ ? ... LIVING off the sale of those new-and-improved ThermoQuad air-valve tools will be allowing me to purchase a private island in-da-Keys ....

.....NOT ...

Just letting my Apple stock ...werk-ferr-me !

Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: Are there any tricks to help seating rings... - 03/20/11 06:09 PM

Quote:

WHO HERE likes a dingle-berry hone ?

I do, for a final finish after regular honing w the Sunnen CK-10 "grasshopper"

Posted By: JohnRR

Re: Are there any tricks to help seating rings... - 03/20/11 08:50 PM

Quote:

In 2004 when I built the 440/493, I drove it REAL easy during the first 500 miles, then changed the oil. In the next 2500 miles, it used oil, got slower and eventually started smoking . I pulled the motor out to hone it and put in new rings.

You left out that you ran a X number of cam lobes worth of metal filings thru it in part of that 2500 miles from 2 cams that went flat .....

Look at a race motor , break in the cam if a flat tappet .... then start racing it ...

Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Are there any tricks to help seating rings... - 03/20/11 09:23 PM

Quote:

Quote:

In 2004 when I built the 440/493, I drove it REAL easy during the first 500 miles, then changed the oil. In the next 2500 miles, it used oil, got slower and eventually started smoking . I pulled the motor out to hone it and put in new rings.

You left out that you ran a X number of cam lobes worth of metal filings thru it in part of that 2500 miles from 2 cams that went flat .....

Look at a race motor , break in the cam if a flat tappet .... then start racing it ...

GOOD Memory! I'm sure that the 2 dead cams added to my problems. Cant slip that by you, huh?

Posted By: MoparMichael

Re: Are there any tricks to help seating rings... - 03/20/11 09:26 PM

pour a.t.f down carb while running about 3000 r.p.m.

Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Are there any tricks to help seating rings... - 03/20/11 09:37 PM

Then rebuild motor again.

Posted By: JohnRR

Re: Are there any tricks to help seating rings... - 03/20/11 09:43 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

In 2004 when I built the 440/493, I drove it REAL easy during the first 500 miles, then changed the oil. In the next 2500 miles, it used oil, got slower and eventually started smoking . I pulled the motor out to hone it and put in new rings.

You left out that you ran a X number of cam lobes worth of metal filings thru it in part of that 2500 miles from 2 cams that went flat .....

Look at a race motor , break in the cam if a flat tappet .... then start racing it ...

GOOD Memory! I'm sure that the 2 dead cams added to my problems. Cant slip that by you, huh?

Nope , I'm still shaking my head, and laughing my [Edited by Moparts - Family Friendly Site - Keep it clean] off, when people think they can just change the oil and swap a cam after devouring a cam lobe , or 5 , and everything will be FINE ...

...

Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Are there any tricks to help seating rings... - 03/20/11 11:14 PM

I understand that you have your beliefs. I respect that. I have been a WOOD mechanic (Carpenter) for 25 years and that trade has taught me that MY way isnt the ONLY way to do things.
In the case of my Charger and its motor problems, When I tore down the motor last month, I saw very little debris. I noticed some near parting lines on the block and in crevices in the heads near drainback holes, but the bottom of the pan wasn't filled with metal shavings. The cylinder walls didn't have gouges in them. I DO agree that losing a cam lobe is bad but from your posts I gather that you are very conservative about engine building. I see your perspective as being cautiously pessimistic. I am the type that takes risks that often pay off. If I read your posts and then read another from someone like me, I might be inclined to side with you, IF I HAD THE TIME AND MONEY. I think that you are much more knowledgeable than I, but some kids have to learn things for themselves.
I will certainly give closer consideration to pulling and douching a motor that wipes a cam in the future, thanks to you. Please do not consider my words as any sort of insult. Quite the contrary. I think that a mans best lessons are sometimes the ones he learns the hard way.

Posted By: Joshs68

Re: Are there any tricks to help seating rings... - 03/21/11 12:01 AM

I have had the break in argument with my father in law more than once.
My opinion is that metal does not get stronger with use/age, and any engine that takes 1000's of miles to "break in" had machine work so bad that it wouldn't have made it that long in the first place.

Posted By: JohnRR

Re: Are there any tricks to help seating rings... - 03/21/11 12:47 AM

Quote:

I understand that you have your beliefs. I respect that. I have been a WOOD mechanic (Carpenter) for 25 years and that trade has taught me that MY way isnt the ONLY way to do things.
In the case of my Charger and its motor problems, When I tore down the motor last month, I saw very little debris. I noticed some near parting lines on the block and in crevices in the heads near drainback holes, but the bottom of the pan wasn't filled with metal shavings. The cylinder walls didn't have gouges in them. I DO agree that losing a cam lobe is bad but from your posts I gather that you are very conservative about engine building. I see your perspective as being cautiously pessimistic. I am the type that takes risks that often pay off. If I read your posts and then read another from someone like me, I might be inclined to side with you, IF I HAD THE TIME AND MONEY. I think that you are much more knowledgeable than I, but some kids have to learn things for themselves.
I will certainly give closer consideration to pulling and douching a motor that wipes a cam in the future, thanks to you. Please do not consider my words as any sort of insult. Quite the contrary. I think that a mans best lessons are sometimes the ones he learns the hard way.

What did the inside of the oil pump look like? The oil goes thru the pump before it goes thru the filter.

I spun a bearing , ran the motor for a short time not knowing it spun a bearing , oil pressure was good and no knocking , it was screaching and I thought it was the hencho en mexico throwout bearing I didn't change out on the clutch change , I had metal particles INSIDE the 800 mile old hyd. lifters.

I'll dig out the bearings and the pistons from the engine masters build we did, it started to eat multiple lobes on 2 cams , but only started to fleck off the surface, minimal pulls with Schebeck lifters and nothing went flat , you should see what the bearings look like .

Posted By: 64Post

Re: Are there any tricks to help seating rings... - 03/21/11 12:55 AM

Quote:

I understand that you have your beliefs. I respect that. I have been a WOOD mechanic (Carpenter) for 25 years and that trade has taught me that MY way isnt the ONLY way to do things.
In the case of my Charger and its motor problems, When I tore down the motor last month, I saw very little debris. I noticed some near parting lines on the block and in crevices in the heads near drainback holes, but the bottom of the pan wasn't filled with metal shavings. The cylinder walls didn't have gouges in them. I DO agree that losing a cam lobe is bad but from your posts I gather that you are very conservative about engine building. I see your perspective as being cautiously pessimistic. I am the type that takes risks that often pay off. If I read your posts and then read another from someone like me, I might be inclined to side with you, IF I HAD THE TIME AND MONEY. I think that you are much more knowledgeable than I, but some kids have to learn things for themselves.
I will certainly give closer consideration to pulling and douching a motor that wipes a cam in the future, thanks to you. Please do not consider my words as any sort of insult. Quite the contrary. I think that a mans best lessons are sometimes the ones he learns the hard way.

To put it another way, there is no positive benefit (only negative) from metal shavings in an engine. Could you get by with it? Sure. Some people are just more comfortable with their decision.

I wiped a solid cam rolling the dice on spring pressure. I tore it down completely, power washed the block and all the passages, re-honed, new bearings and rings, oil pump, and picked as many of the shavings from the skirts as I could see using a magnify glass and razor blade. Overkill according to some, but that's just how I roll...

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Are there any tricks to help seating rings... - 03/21/11 01:01 AM

Quote:

Quote:

I understand that you have your beliefs. I respect that. I have been a WOOD mechanic (Carpenter) for 25 years and that trade has taught me that MY way isnt the ONLY way to do things.
In the case of my Charger and its motor problems, When I tore down the motor last month, I saw very little debris. I noticed some near parting lines on the block and in crevices in the heads near drainback holes, but the bottom of the pan wasn't filled with metal shavings. The cylinder walls didn't have gouges in them. I DO agree that losing a cam lobe is bad but from your posts I gather that you are very conservative about engine building. I see your perspective as being cautiously pessimistic. I am the type that takes risks that often pay off. If I read your posts and then read another from someone like me, I might be inclined to side with you, IF I HAD THE TIME AND MONEY. I think that you are much more knowledgeable than I, but some kids have to learn things for themselves.
I will certainly give closer consideration to pulling and douching a motor that wipes a cam in the future, thanks to you. Please do not consider my words as any sort of insult. Quite the contrary. I think that a mans best lessons are sometimes the ones he learns the hard way.

To put it another way, there is no positive benefit (only negative) from metal shavings in an engine. Could you get by with it? Sure. Some people are just more comfortable with their decision.

I wiped a solid cam rolling the dice on spring pressure. I tore it down completely, power washed the block and all the passages, re-honed, new bearings and rings, oil pump, and picked as many of the shavings from the skirts as I could see using a magnify glass and razor blade. Overkill according to some, but that's just how I roll...

You can either do it once and do it right taking your time in the process or you can keep making the same mistakes over and over and over....

Personally all of my engines (even stock-ish rebuild for my truck!) went back together as meticulously clean as I could get them! Never had a problem and beat on them the minute the cam was broken in!

Posted By: DJVCuda

Re: Are there any tricks to help seating rings... - 03/21/11 01:16 AM

broke the cam in - changed the oil and let it rip - the hood never even made it on the car...

Posted By: joewhite440

Re: Are there any tricks to help seating rings... - 03/21/11 03:35 AM

I have had quite a few new rebuilds. My method is like many others except one thing. When changing oil after Cam Break in etc. I drain the oil through rag, strainer what ever works. Cut the head off the original filter and spread out and check element for metal. Refill with oil and run it like you stole it when you feel like it.

Posted By: Dadrules

Re: Are there any tricks to help seating rings... - 03/21/11 03:48 AM

Quote:

broke the cam in - changed the oil and let it rip - the hood never even made it on the car...

well that clip brought a smile to my face after an afternoon on a jackhammer....getting ready to pour a driveway to the just expanded shop with 10 ft ceiling. time for a lift.

Posted By: dOrk !

Re: Are there any tricks to help seating rings... - 03/21/11 03:16 PM

Quote:

I have had quite a few new rebuilds. My method is like many others except one thing. When changing oil after Cam Break in etc. I drain the oil through rag, strainer what ever works. Cut the head off the original filter and spread out and check element for metal. Refill with oil and run it like you stole it when you feel like it.

I am surprised no one has mentioned so far ....

How about magnetic-probed drain-plug say with a 2" or so extension. It is has been awhile since I have R&Red a motor out to do a complete rebuild(and have the oil-pan off) ... but when I did ...I always put one of those thin donut magnets in the bottom of that pan.

MAYBE these days ... with the issues with oil(the lack of zinc) it might be the plan to put TWO of these donuts in.

Posted By: Keith Black®

Re: Are there any tricks to help seating rings... - 03/21/11 09:43 PM

Quote:

WHO HERE likes a dingle-berry hone ?

My understanding is that the hone process is critical. Especially the crosshatch angle and grade of the stone. The finish must match the type of ring used and prevent unnecessary loading of the rings. Plateau is the area between hone grooves which in surface area is just as important to the depth of the honing grooves for oil retention & seal.
IMO honing is a precision process, which means professional equipment. the bore cleaning process is also crucial as much material holds up in the grooves.