Moparts

Edelbrock gets hot

Posted By: CSSRegistry

Edelbrock gets hot - 03/04/11 07:27 PM

Hello Moparts,

i have been chasing down some different problems on my 1964 Dodge D100 and this site has been great in helping sort them out.

the one i am addressing today is the 440 that is powering the truck has had an issue when i have been driving the truck for any length of time when it is fully warmed up and i stop at a parts store or whatever, go in and get what i need and then return on my way. the truck will start fine but when i give it anything more than 1/3 throttle it bogs like it is starving for fuel.

it seems like the carb is soaking up heat from the intake crossover. i have tried a couple of heat insulator gaskets and even changed out the carb, coil, distributor but i keep coming back to heat soak.

specs are Edelbrock 800 AVS with electronic choke on a basically stock 1969 440 with the following mods - Mopar Peformance dual plane aluminum intake, CompCams dual energy cam and a pertronix in a dual point distributor with a flame thrower coil. i am also using a (reall loud) Holley Blue fuel pump and match pressure regulator set at 6 PSI.

i have switched out the pertronix with a tried and true Mopar Electronic ignition with no change in the heat soak/bog.

i have gone up and down with fuel pump pressure with no change.

my question is:
if i buy a valley pan that blocks off the intake cross-over-heat riser would i expect any negative effects from doing so?

thank you in advance for any advice.

Ben

Posted By: 69chargeryeehaa

Re: Edelbrock gets hot - 03/04/11 07:47 PM

I've had the same problems as you have....a long long time ago.
have you tried a 1" spacer? there's some spectrum (sp?) company that sells spacers, and they have a neat removable center piece that can be open or a 4 hole spacer....i used the 4 hole spacer on mine (on a 440 with dual plane intake eddy CH4B) and the difference was night and day...i like you tried the like 1/4" eddy thick gasket and still had a heat problem. after i put on this 1" job it totally completely disappeared, and the 4-hole spacer had a second benefit, and just ran much nicer by giving the carb better signal to the barrels...so my off-idle stumble disappeared as well...
also how are your fuel lines routed? do you have a return for a vapor separator as well?
Posted By: CSSRegistry

Re: Edelbrock gets hot - 03/04/11 08:00 PM

Quote:

I've had the same problems as you have....a long long time ago.
have you tried a 1" spacer? there's some spectrum (sp?) company that sells spacers, and they have a neat removable center piece that can be open or a 4 hole spacer....i used the 4 hole spacer on mine (on a 440 with dual plane intake eddy CH4B) and the difference was night and day...i like you tried the like 1/4" eddy thick gasket and still had a heat problem. after i put on this 1" job it totally completely disappeared, and the 4-hole spacer had a second benefit, and just ran much nicer by giving the carb better signal to the barrels...so my off-idle stumble disappeared as well...
also how are your fuel lines routed? do you have a return for a vapor separator as well?




the fuel line is well away from any hot spot but it does tuck in the front below the alternator and sneaks in between the distributor and head. i have rerouted it twice in an effort to keep it away from the block and the head.

i have not tried a one inch spacer. i was considering a heat sheild/spacer set up like this:

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MRG-3710/

but then i saw this valley pan and got to thinking:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/FEL-1215/

i would use it without the paper gaskets.

i got rid of my off-idle stumble by using stiffer rod springs and a little richer on both stepups on the rods. it would be nice to lean it out a little as the plugs read rich.

Ben
Posted By: bigsbigelow

Re: Edelbrock gets hot - 03/04/11 08:07 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I've had the same problems as you have....a long long time ago.
have you tried a 1" spacer? there's some spectrum (sp?) company that sells spacers, and they have a neat removable center piece that can be open or a 4 hole spacer....i used the 4 hole spacer on mine (on a 440 with dual plane intake eddy CH4B) and the difference was night and day...i like you tried the like 1/4" eddy thick gasket and still had a heat problem. after i put on this 1" job it totally completely disappeared, and the 4-hole spacer had a second benefit, and just ran much nicer by giving the carb better signal to the barrels...so my off-idle stumble disappeared as well...
also how are your fuel lines routed? do you have a return for a vapor separator as well?




the fuel line is well away from any hot spot but it does tuck in the front below the alternator and sneaks in between the distributor and head. i have rerouted it twice in an effort to keep it away from the block and the head.

i have not tried a one inch spacer. i was considering a heat sheild/spacer set up like this:

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MRG-3710/

but then i saw this valley pan and got to thinking:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/FEL-1215/

i would use it without the paper gaskets.

i got rid of my off-idle stumble by using stiffer rod springs and a little richer on both stepups on the rods. it would be nice to lean it out a little as the plugs read rich.

Ben




This is what I personally would do, block off the heat crossover and run a short four hole spacer to help throttle response. I look at it this way, an aluminum intake is supposed to help keep the fuel and air mixture cool, why heat it up with a crossover?
Posted By: 69chargeryeehaa

Re: Edelbrock gets hot - 03/04/11 08:13 PM

Quote:



the fuel line is well away from any hot spot but it does tuck in the front below the alternator and sneaks in between the distributor and head. i have rerouted it twice in an effort to keep it away from the block and the head.

i have not tried a one inch spacer. i was considering a heat sheild/spacer set up like this:

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MRG-3710/

but then i saw this valley pan and got to thinking:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/FEL-1215/

i would use it without the paper gaskets.

i got rid of my off-idle stumble by using stiffer rod springs and a little richer on both stepups on the rods. it would be nice to lean it out a little as the plugs read rich.

Ben



I tried tuning out the off idle stumble with the metering rods and springs, ect...my jetting was spot on, but it just had this tiny little stumble that would not go away with my taller tires on it was noticeable (28" tall and 3.23 gear) with stock magnums the stumble was gone...
anyways back on topic, your fuel line routing sounds stock...that's should be ok....do you have the exhaust heat ports blocked in the manifold? that can cause it to run a little hotter...but honestly i was almost ready to accept the problem until i saw the 1" spacer kinda like this one: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/EDL-8711/
but with the removable center...that really did it for me, absolutely no problem at all no matter how hot it is outside....
i would try the spacer first, it's really easy to install and since you have a truck it should not give you hood clearance issues like i had; i had to use a drop base to clear the hood...also my heat crossover ports are blocked....almost considered a must with after market intake i would think?
Posted By: CSSRegistry

Re: Edelbrock gets hot - 03/04/11 08:33 PM

Quote:



I tried tuning out the off idle stumble with the metering rods and springs, ect...my jetting was spot on, but it just had this tiny little stumble that would not go away with my taller tires on it was noticeable (28" tall and 3.23 gear) with stock magnums the stumble was gone...
anyways back on topic, your fuel line routing sounds stock...that's should be ok....do you have the exhaust heat ports blocked in the manifold? that can cause it to run a little hotter...but honestly i was almost ready to accept the problem until i saw the 1" spacer kinda like this one: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/EDL-8711/
but with the removable center...that really did it for me, absolutely no problem at all no matter how hot it is outside....
i would try the spacer first, it's really easy to install and since you have a truck it should not give you hood clearance issues like i had; i had to use a drop base to clear the hood...also my heat crossover ports are blocked....almost considered a must with after market intake i would think?




Quote:


This is what I personally would do, block off the heat crossover and run a short four hole spacer to help throttle response. I look at it this way, an aluminum intake is supposed to help keep the fuel and air mixture cool, why heat it up with a crossover?



aside from the valley pan with the heat riser blocked off what is the best way to block it? weld up the manifold?

i would hate to make a "permanent" change like that and chance warping the intake.

i'll probably try the spacer - i have plenty of vertical room but i do have one small interference issue with the cowl mounted hood centering pin.

it sits just above the air cleaner:



thanks for the advice!

Ben
Posted By: bigsbigelow

Re: Edelbrock gets hot - 03/04/11 08:43 PM

If you decide to block it off get the valley pan that blocks it. You can epoxy a thin sheet of aluminum to the manifold over the crossover ports (my father did this back in the day on a 340) but the valley pan would be best. I would also look into getting gaskets designed for blocking the crossover. I don't know if they are available for a big block because I am a small block guy.
Posted By: dcr

Re: Edelbrock gets hot - 03/04/11 10:00 PM

I know its off topic but that sure looks like a truck I just read about in mopar collectors guide just wondering how sharp my eye is.
Posted By: Mopar_Country

Re: Edelbrock gets hot - 03/04/11 10:24 PM

"my question is:
if i buy a valley pan that blocks off the intake cross-over-heat riser would i expect any negative effects from doing so?"

No, it might take a touch longer to warm up is all.

And nice truck!
Posted By: CSSRegistry

Re: Edelbrock gets hot - 03/04/11 11:49 PM

Quote:

I know its off topic but that sure looks like a truck I just read about in mopar collectors guide just wondering how sharp my eye is.



Your eyes are measuring 20/20

This be that truck. A photo of me with the truck in 2010 and another in 1969 made in the spring 2011 issue of Motor Trend Classic. It should be on newsstands now.
Posted By: CSSRegistry

Re: Edelbrock gets hot - 03/04/11 11:51 PM

"And nice truck"

Thanks man - it was a labor of love.
Posted By: Challenger 1

Re: Edelbrock gets hot - 03/05/11 12:03 AM

Hello, read your thread.

What's the coolant temp when it gives you trouble? Is it getting warm?
Posted By: CSSRegistry

Re: Edelbrock gets hot - 03/05/11 12:11 AM

Quote:

Hello, read your thread.

What's the coolant temp when it gives you trouble? Is it getting warm?



Thanks for reading my thread. When it gives me trouble the coolant temp varies - anywhere from 180 to 220+. Once I drive for bit and get some gas and air through it it tends to clear up.
Posted By: Challenger 1

Re: Edelbrock gets hot - 03/05/11 12:53 AM

Just wondering about timing and maybe it's a little lean. Running either not enough timing at idle or not enough fuel under load can cause your problems.

Got a fuel pressure gauge you can see when it acts up? Those blue pumps want to move a lot of gas, If there a restriction on the suction side they will vapor lock pretty easy nowadays with todays gas. Too much fuel pressure will also cause your problem.

220 degrees is too hot, it shouldn't go from 180-220, something up. Unless you just got done climbing Peaks Pike or something.

Just a couple things to check.
Posted By: CSSRegistry

Re: Edelbrock gets hot - 03/05/11 01:52 AM

Quote:



220 degrees is too hot, it shouldn't go from 180-220, something up. Unless you just got done climbing Peaks Pike or something.

Just a couple things to check.



That is temp right when i restart it up. The thermostat is a 180 so it'll cool down to that in traffic in no time. I have a digital thermometer - I'll check see how hot the carburetor is getting when i take it to the feed store tomorrow.

Been up and down with timing and the plugs read rich. I have a gauge on the regulator - i hadn't thought about running it to a place to monitor pressure. I hate that pump because it so loud BTW
Posted By: Challenger 1

Re: Edelbrock gets hot - 03/05/11 01:59 AM

Quote:

I hate that pump because it so loud BTW



Me too, terrible for the street unless you always have your radio cranking.

Seriously, those pumps have to be plumbed properly with a large enough inlet size so it don't cavatate. There a racing pump and need to be kept cool for extended street use, like with a return. imo

My cars aren't 220 when I start them up hot sitting there idling.
Posted By: Mopar_Country

Re: Edelbrock gets hot - 03/05/11 02:02 AM

Is there a shroud around the fan? I was looking at the pic and you can't really tell. I think Chally 1 asked a great question about temp readings, I would get that under control first and see where your at.
Posted By: CSSRegistry

Re: Edelbrock gets hot - 03/05/11 02:03 AM

I'm going to replace it with a Carter 6 PSI pump - the blue is what i had laying around when the mr gasket inline pump failed. No plans to race this thing
Posted By: CSSRegistry

Re: Edelbrock gets hot - 03/05/11 02:09 AM

Quote:

Is there a shroud around the fan? I was looking at the pic and you can't really tell. I think Chally 1 asked a great question about temp readings, I would get that under control first and see where your at.



Thanks - i am running a shroud. Temp cools down upon restart to 180 in normal traffic.
Posted By: CSSRegistry

Re: Edelbrock gets hot - 03/05/11 03:23 AM

Thanks for all the input so far.

Re: temp.
I guess i need to clarify what i mean by 180-220+

I drive the truck somewhere.
I turn it off for 5 or 10 minutes.
During that time the water in the block heats up since it is not circulating.
I get back in the truck and turn the key on - I do not start it.
The temp reads 180-220+.
I start the truck and within a couple minutes it is reading a steady 180 in normal traffic.
Carb bogs at heavy throttle but drive normally under light throttle.
After a few minutes of normal small town traffic it clears up and then i am able to floor it without a bog.

Ben
Posted By: CSSRegistry

Re: Edelbrock gets hot - 03/05/11 09:29 PM

Update:
I went to the feed store today. It's about 6 miles away. Truck held 180 the whole way.

Before i turned off the truck i used my digital thermometer and the intake below the carb at the choke pocket was 300 degrees. The base of the carb itself was 164. The exhaust manifold was 700+

Went inside and bought some feed for my wife's critters and before i started it up i measure the temps again the intake had cooled to 230 but the base of the carb heated up to 170 to 210 depending on where i measure it.

Drove the truck home and sure enough it would bog when it did not on the way to the feed store. By the time i got home coolant temp was 180 but the base of the carb was still in the 170 to 200 range - it was warmest near the choke pot.

I am going to try the thick spacer first and see what happens.

I plan on taking it on the power tour this year so i will probably pull the intake and block the heat ports. I'm running an electric choke and i live in Florida so i am not too worried about it being cold natured.

Thanks for the pointers everyone - i really appreciate it.

Ben
Posted By: Mopar_Country

Re: Edelbrock gets hot - 03/05/11 09:52 PM

If you can get away with raising the carb some, maybe try a 1" phenolic spacer. I would think that will help since the boiling point of gasoline is between 100 and 400 degrees Fahrenheit. The spacer should crisp up your throttle response as well as help with torque. Let us know what you end up with.
Posted By: GTXX

Re: Edelbrock gets hot - 03/06/11 04:28 AM

I was gonna say the truck intake gasket with the crossover blocked will cause it to be cold natured, and will require a good warm-up in the winter, but you're in Florida so it may not be too bad. Also, be sure to lose the blue pump and get the Carter street pump. FWIW, anytime I've had your problem it always ended up being the radiator wasn't flowing well or a blown head gasket.
Posted By: CSSRegistry

Re: Edelbrock gets hot - 05/17/11 04:13 PM

Quote:

I was gonna say the truck intake gasket with the crossover blocked will cause it to be cold natured, and will require a good warm-up in the winter, but you're in Florida so it may not be too bad. Also, be sure to lose the blue pump and get the Carter street pump. FWIW, anytime I've had your problem it always ended up being the radiator wasn't flowing well or a blown head gasket.



UPDATE - when i installed a valley pan with the crossovers blocked i decided to pull the heads and check the head gaskets. while i was in there i noticed the exhaust valves were slightly recessed in the seats.

i guess the 906's did not have hardened seats... dammit.

i had a pair of 452 heads rebuilt with new springs, keepers, valves - the works.

i also had the radiator flow tested and it showed a 20% blockage (how does one measure that?).

i have it all back together now and it does not appear to exhibit any of the carb boiling with no tendency to bog after it has sat in a parking lot.

it is actually not that bad in terms of cold nature starts (i am running an electric choke).

in spite of a tendency to run hot on the interstate i plan on doing the first three power tour stops. hopefully i'll be able to see some of you on the road.

thanks MOPARTS

Ben
Posted By: dOrk !

Re: Edelbrock gets hot - 05/17/11 04:20 PM

The exh valves recessed ...or are they sunk ? ... check the face of the valve and the seat itself. If it is "torched" ...you have probs. But many valve jobs are done with a slight recess.
Posted By: CSSRegistry

Re: Edelbrock gets hot - 05/17/11 04:37 PM

Quote:

The exh valves recessed ...or are they sunk ? ... check the face of the valve and the seat itself. If it is "torched" ...you have probs. But many valve jobs are done with a slight recess.



sunk is probably a better term for what i saw... you could easily spin the exhaust valve springs.

that's why i replaced them outright with the 452s.

Ben
Posted By: dOrk !

Re: Edelbrock gets hot - 05/17/11 04:43 PM

EZ spin ...not good. How much HD use or towing did you do?
Posted By: CSSRegistry

Re: Edelbrock gets hot - 05/17/11 04:50 PM

truck weighs 4500 pounds - just cruising it on the highway.

i'd like to think it is the crappy alcohol blended fuel, non-hardened seats and no lead additives is what burned up the 906 heads.
Posted By: CSSRegistry

Re: Edelbrock gets hot - 05/20/11 02:25 PM

Quote:

truck weighs 4500 pounds - just cruising it on the highway.

i'd like to think it is the crappy alcohol blended fuel, non-hardened seats and no lead additives is what burned up the 906 heads.



UPDATE -

i think i have figured out the root of my problems. it appears the springs on the mechanical advance in the distributor have stretched out. last time i messed with the timing on the truck i set total advance at 36 degrees with initial being around 8 or 9.

when i went to check total advance last night it had worked itself on up to 42 degrees! i backed it up to 36 total degrees and then idled it down and initial timing is now reading 6 degrees.

does a 30 degree curve seem a bit unreasonable for a fairly stock engine?

anyone know of a good resource to get a rebuild kit for an original dual point distributor converted to pertronix? i think i need to narrow down the distributor curve a bit because it is a bit gutless off the line - we can't have that now!

Thanks MOPARTS!

Ben
Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: Edelbrock gets hot - 05/20/11 09:00 PM

For sure not enough initial & you need that amt finalized (vac gauge method is good) then shorten the slots for 36 total (WO vac hooked up) then play w the springs then hookup the vac adv (if used). Right now your total is good but the slots are too long which is making the initial too low and the curve is too slow and that's what's hurting your performance.
Posted By: babarracuda

Re: Edelbrock gets hot - 05/21/11 02:36 PM

I had a 440 in my 66 D200 and tried everything with no sucxess until i found out that Edelbrock/AFT don't like more than 5 PSI. I put a regulator on it and the problem disappeared. Take off the cleaner right after you stop and see if there are fumes in the carb. If so, the pump probably has too much pressure.
Posted By: CSSRegistry

Re: Edelbrock gets hot - 05/21/11 03:26 PM

Quote:

I had a 440 in my 66 D200 and tried everything with no sucxess until i found out that Edelbrock/AFT don't like more than 5 PSI. I put a regulator on it and the problem disappeared. Take off the cleaner right after you stop and see if there are fumes in the carb. If so, the pump probably has too much pressure.



Good to know. I have a regulator set to 5.5 PSI right now...
Posted By: stubbs300

Re: Edelbrock gets hot - 05/21/11 03:56 PM

That's a really sweet truck, like it a lot! FWIW, I'm runnin my E-brock carb regulated at 3.5 psi and have even dailed it down to 1 psi with no leadfooting problems of fuel starving. Good Luck
Posted By: CSSRegistry

Re: Edelbrock gets hot - 05/21/11 04:34 PM

Quote:

For sure not enough initial & you need that amt finalized (vac gauge method is good) then shorten the slots for 36 total (WO vac hooked up) then play w the springs then hookup the vac adv (if used). Right now your total is good but the slots are too long which is making the initial too low and the curve is too slow and that's what's hurting your performance.



This might be a stupid question - how do you shorten the slots?

Ben
Posted By: CSSRegistry

Re: Edelbrock gets hot - 05/21/11 04:36 PM

Quote:

That's a really sweet truck, like it a lot! FWIW, I'm runnin my E-brock carb regulated at 3.5 psi and have even dailed it down to 1 psi with no leadfooting problems of fuel starving. Good Luck



Thanks - it is a fun truck!
Posted By: hooziewhatsit

Re: Edelbrock gets hot - 05/21/11 04:43 PM

I had mine welded, then I attacked it with a routing bit in a dremel and a grinder to smooth the bumps out and to get the desired length.

If I did it again, I'd weld the inside of the slots, so that the springs have a bit of pre-load on them.

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