Moparts
318 timing sprocket marks
Posted By: JamiePasson
318 timing sprocket marks - 12/23/10 03:11 PM
I am having trouble with the farm truck. 1978 Dodge Power Wagon. 318. Took the timing cover off because we suspected that it jumped a tooth on the chain. Well, it didn,t but the chain is stretched BAD. So, I am changing it. I got a Mopar Perf (Melling) double roller timing chain. However, this is where I am confused. Correct me if I am wrong:
You are supposed to put the engine on TDC and then line the sprocket marks up when installing the chain. Crank mark at 12:00, cam mark at 6:00. When the crank is at TDC, the keyway on the crank is at 2:00. When I removed the old timing chain and sprockets, you can plainly see the dimple is at 12:00 on the crank sprocket and the keyway is at 2:00. On the new sprocket, you have three options for timing. 0 degrees, 4 degrees advanced or 4 degrees retarded. I obviously want to use the 0 degree keyway on the crank. The problem is that there is only one dimple (timing mark) on the crank sprocket that is right above the 0 degree keyway. Where I am confused is that this is going to require me to turn the crank way back to line the timing marks up on the two sprockets. IT will no longer be on TDC.
Any ideas? Miss stamped sprockets? Am I missing something?
Thanks,
Jamie
Posted By: johnedod
Re: 318 timing sprocket marks - 12/23/10 03:39 PM
The engine was in time when you took the old set off, I'd just put the new set on without turning anything. You could make your own mark at 12:00 on the crank gear with a center punch or something for future reference if you'd like.
Posted By: buildanother
Re: 318 timing sprocket marks - 12/23/10 04:29 PM
You should find the straight up dot towards outer teeth area of the new gear, a couple of teeth away from keyway. And do not use the dot that is by the keyway. The keyway will be at 1;30 clock position when #1 is at tdc.
Posted By: JamiePasson
Re: 318 timing sprocket marks - 12/23/10 04:44 PM
Maybe I am missing the mark then. I will check it again.
THANKS!
Jamie
Posted By: Mopar_Country
Re: 318 timing sprocket marks - 12/23/10 05:19 PM
#1 at TDC compression stroke. Install sprockets cam at 6 o'clock, crank at 12 o'clock. I usually lube up the chain as well so it's not dry on start up. Hope this helps.
Posted By: buildanother
Re: 318 timing sprocket marks - 12/23/10 05:40 PM
Above image is showing #6 firing.
Posted By: Yancy Derringer
Re: 318 timing sprocket marks - 12/23/10 05:49 PM
I would install the sprockets "on the marks" and then when you reinstall the timing cover and balancer, CHECK TDC.
Use a positive stop:
Put in no1, making sure the engine is NOT on TDC, and there is room for the tool to go in.
Gently wrench the engine around until it stops "on the stop" and make a temporary mark on the wheel right under TDC on the tab
Do the same CCW
True TDC will now be halfway between these two temporary marks, and if the original mark was correct, that is where it will be
You may just be seeing the difference caused by chain stretch
As someone else said, when the marks are "dot to dot" the engine is ACTUALLY on "no6 ready to fire", not no1. If you do not rotate the engine you want the rotor pointing to 6, not 1.
You probably did not pull the dist, so it should be OK except a minor movement to retime (for chain stretch)
Posted By: jsswope67
Re: 318 timing sprocket marks - 05/09/12 06:50 PM
Is this thread still open and being read? So should I point my rotor to #6?? I set my marks the same as in the picture above.
Posted By: jsswope67
Re: 318 timing sprocket marks - 05/09/12 06:52 PM
My local parts store does not have a positive stop...
Is this thread still open and being read? So should I point my rotor to #6?? I set my marks the same as in the picture above. 12 o clock and 6 o clock, never found out this info until now.
Posted By: HemiRick
Re: 318 timing sprocket marks - 05/09/12 07:25 PM
Quote:
#1 at TDC compression stroke. Install sprockets cam at 6 o'clock, crank at 12 o'clock.
WRONG !!
This should read #6 at TDC compression stroke.....
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: 318 timing sprocket marks - 05/09/12 07:26 PM
Quote:
My local parts store does not have a positive stop...
Is this thread still open and being read? So should I point my rotor to #6?? I set my marks the same as in the picture above. 12 o clock and 6 o clock, never found out this info until now.
2 years after it was originally opened , doubtful .
But yes when the dots are aligned as in the picture above that is actually firing cylinder #6 , #1 cylinder is at TDC , but on a different part of the stroke cycle.
Posted By: jsswope67
Re: 318 timing sprocket marks - 05/09/12 07:55 PM
It starts and idles fine, so leave it that way or change the dist wire for #1 to #6?
Revs ok, idles with some slight hissing and small pops, has some blowback out of the EGR hose.
Runs awhile then heats up and pings, just put new thermostat in it and have the heater core out.
I did reset the timing some and it heats up sooner than it did, about 1 mile vs. 8miles.
Pings, loses power and heats up. Plugs are very soot filled each time.
Also cannot see my mark with the timing light, solid line across dampener painted white.
Posted By: A57_RT
Re: 318 timing sprocket marks - 05/09/12 07:59 PM
But yes when the dots are aligned as in the picture above that is actually firing cylinder #6 , #1 cylinder is at TDC , but on a different part of the stroke cycle.
Yep and thats what make people go hmmmmm.
Posted By: jsswope67
Re: 318 timing sprocket marks - 05/09/12 08:11 PM
So #6 wire to the #1 tower? Hmmmmmmmmmmm.....
Posted By: 70AARcuda
Re: 318 timing sprocket marks - 05/09/12 08:23 PM
Quote:
#1 at TDC compression stroke. Install sprockets cam at 6 o'clock, crank at 12 o'clock. I usually lube up the chain as well so it's not dry on start up. Hope this helps.
as noted that is incorrect..
No. 1 TDC is cam at 12 o'clock and crank at 12 o'clock....everyone use the cam at 6 and crank at 12 cause it is easier to line up...but the engine is on no.6 firing...
just put the distributor pointing at no.6...or rotate the engine 180 back to no 1 firing...and but the distributor in...
it aint rocket science..
Posted By: jsswope67
Re: 318 timing sprocket marks - 05/09/12 08:30 PM
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: 318 timing sprocket marks - 05/09/12 09:19 PM
Quote:
It starts and idles fine, so leave it that way or change the dist wire for #1 to #6?
Revs ok, idles with some slight hissing and small pops, has some blowback out of the EGR hose.
Runs awhile then heats up and pings, just put new thermostat in it and have the heater core out.
I did reset the timing some and it heats up sooner than it did, about 1 mile vs. 8miles.
Pings, loses power and heats up. Plugs are very soot filled each time.
Also cannot see my mark with the timing light, solid line across dampener painted white.
Well first off it's running so you must have done something right, if the distributor was off 180* the car would not even start.
But that said there is no guarantee that the timing gears are marked correctly , more than once someone has gotten an incorrectly indexed set.
Posted By: rth
Re: 318 timing sprocket marks - 05/09/12 10:09 PM
i thought small blocks line up pointing towards each other. big blocks both point up.
Posted By: HemiRick
Re: 318 timing sprocket marks - 05/09/12 11:05 PM
Nope both small block and big line up dot to dot and are firing on number 6 when doing so.
If the engine is running at this point no need to do anything. You got lucky.
Posted By: jsswope67
Re: 318 timing sprocket marks - 05/10/12 01:56 AM
Other than the heating up issue, loss of power and pinging of valves after a while its fine, I read on another board of a similar issue, they tought it was running too too lean, person swapped out a carb and it fixed it, at this point, I do not want to go chasing my tail, so may play with needle adjustments, rebuilt the carb three times to make sure, put in another step up piston assembly with needles from another carb that may have had good settings, so not sure where to go. I know one thing if I have to pull the timing cover off again (for the third time) I will put in a rougher cam. Current carb is a Carter BDD 2 barrel.
Posted By: RapidRobert
Re: 318 timing sprocket marks - 05/10/12 02:11 AM
put a light on it & time it at 10-15BTDC initial
Posted By: jsswope67
Re: 318 timing sprocket marks - 05/10/12 02:34 AM
Last I checked it was around 18 BTDC, any less it shut off..but I will check again with light.
Posted By: RapidRobert
Re: 318 timing sprocket marks - 05/10/12 02:38 AM
Something dont sound right that it'll die with any less than 18 (If I read you right)
Posted By: jsswope67
Re: 318 timing sprocket marks - 05/10/12 02:43 AM
When I turned it more counter clockwise, yes it will bog out and not start, 18 was correct, never can see my solid dampener line either
Posted By: HemiRick
Re: 318 timing sprocket marks - 05/10/12 03:49 AM
After you put it back together did you move any of the wires on the cap to make it run? if so that's why you can't see the line on the damper.
Posted By: jsswope67
Re: 318 timing sprocket marks - 05/10/12 04:02 AM
Yes, moved them a ton of times, didn't know the wire placement would show the line.
#1 wire is now on the tower that is marked 1 with a clockwise arrow. -Thanks any suggestions?
Posted By: HemiRick
Re: 318 timing sprocket marks - 05/10/12 04:10 AM
For the line to be in the right place, so does #1 plug wire on the distributor need to be in the right place. Most likely you wires are rotated 180 from where there supposed to be on the cap and the distributor is also 180 out.
Posted By: jsswope67
Re: 318 timing sprocket marks - 05/10/12 04:48 AM
Sequence is 1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2
Just as a thought wires install clockwise? Correct? Small Block
I have the wires installed in sequence clockwise, but starting #1 wire on #1 dist tower that has a CC pointing arrow near the one, before the clip facing front of engine.
CC for Big Block?
Posted By: jsswope67
Re: 318 timing sprocket marks - 05/10/12 05:17 AM
Actually I think #1 wire now may be on the tower that is between the 2 that are marked "1" and that have the corresponding directions arrows.
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: 318 timing sprocket marks - 05/10/12 02:39 PM
Quote:
put a light on it & time it at 10-15BTDC initial
Before giving advice like this a question needs to be asked ...
What distributor are you running and what changes to it have you made ?
If it is just a stock points or electronic and you have made no changes your first problem is you have way too much intial advance. Stock mopars distributor have 30 - 32 degrees of mechanical advance in them , with almost 20 degrees intial your mechanical is up to 50 degrees , no wonder it's pinging and running like bleep
Posted By: 70AARcuda
Re: 318 timing sprocket marks - 05/10/12 04:14 PM
Quote:
Sequence is 1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2
Just as a thought wires install clockwise? Correct? Small Block
I have the wires installed in sequence clockwise, but starting #1 wire on #1 dist tower that has a CC pointing arrow near the one, before the clip facing front of engine.
CC for Big Block?
small block clockwise
Big block counter clockwise..
Posted By: jsswope67
Re: 318 timing sprocket marks - 05/10/12 06:15 PM
It's an out of the box electronic dist, new cap never changed any settings in the dist.
Posted By: jsswope67
Re: 318 timing sprocket marks - 05/10/12 06:18 PM
I can try again on the CW tower with the #1 cast mark on the cap, seems I did try that before, numerous times and it did not start. Or slowed the crankshaft down to a drag. I think now that #1 wire is on the CC #1 tower then 8-4-3-6-5-7-2 wired clockwise.
Posted By: buildanother
Re: 318 timing sprocket marks - 05/10/12 06:24 PM
How about putting the wires back to where it would run, then clipping timing light onto the wire that goes directly to the drivers side front cyl. (#1).
Posted By: jsswope67
Re: 318 timing sprocket marks - 05/10/12 06:29 PM
It runs now, will start now, will idle now, just heats up after a few miles, pings, shuts off or pings, loses power shuts off. Timing light now would show me around 18degrees, turing the dist either way slightly will shut it off. Any better than that , where would the wiring go? To the #1? CW tower?
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: 318 timing sprocket marks - 05/10/12 06:30 PM
Quote:
It's an out of the box electronic dist, new cap never changed any settings in the dist.
How old is it ?
You more than likely have too much total advance , that is why it's pinging.
Posted By: jsswope67
Re: 318 timing sprocket marks - 05/10/12 06:31 PM
Year and 1/2 old, total advance? What's the setting?
Posted By: jsswope67
Re: 318 timing sprocket marks - 05/10/12 06:39 PM
Going to put a light on it now and seeing where it stands again, will report back later. Thanks.
Posted By: jsswope67
Re: 318 timing sprocket marks - 05/10/12 07:02 PM
Ok, #1 wire is on the tower just before the front clip going clockwise and the zero mark on the timing cover is showing 15BTDC with a timing light. Started up fine, it's a little cooler outside today about 56 degrees, idles, even backed it up a few feet. I know if I try and drive it, it will ping lose power and bog down.
Posted By: jsswope67
Re: 318 timing sprocket marks - 05/10/12 07:11 PM
Could it be the carb is running too too lean??
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: 318 timing sprocket marks - 05/10/12 08:00 PM
Quote:
Ok, #1 wire is on the tower just before the front clip going clockwise and the zero mark on the timing cover is showing 15BTDC with a timing light. Started up fine, it's a little cooler outside today about 56 degrees, idles, even backed it up a few feet. I know if I try and drive it, it will ping lose power and bog down.
Roll the intial back to 5 degrees and readjust the idle 700-800 rpm, recheck intial. A 1.5 year old , assuming it's brand new and not 20 yr old stock, will have the adjustable mechanical advance but from the factory it comes set at max which I am pretty sure is 28 degrees.
Posted By: 70Cuda383
Re: 318 timing sprocket marks - 05/10/12 08:54 PM
whew....maybe it's time to start all over with the timing! just to eliminate any issues with it.
remove the driver side valve cover. rotate the engine by hand, watch for the #1 intake valve to open, then close, then continue to turn the crank until the timing mark on the dampner is at the 0 degrees TDC mark on the timing cover. this may be off a degree or 2 if the dampner has slipped at all, or due to factory tolerances in the timing cover assembly, but it'll be close enough. Now, drop in the distributor so that the rotor is pointing towards the number 1 plug tower on the cap, twisting the distributor as needed to make it line up. you now have located #1. now, going clockwise on the distributor cap, install the rest of the plug wires, 8 would be next, continue on down the firing order till you finish with #2.
then start it, and set your timing with the light, which should be clipped to the #1 plug wire.
after that, start chasing carb settings to track down the overheating issue.
Posted By: jsswope67
Re: 318 timing sprocket marks - 05/11/12 02:28 AM
phew is right...
Know how many times I have done that? Enough to use 3 tubes of high temp sealant on the valve cover, only to find one more thing I missed. What about the reluctor lining up with the tip on the dist gap? Do I need to change the dist gap or adjustment? Once I was told before to have the slot on top of the oil pump gear in line with the crankshaft, I think I have the timing close now, it was around 12, just tried another carb, 3rd one, it over flowed in the piston assembly vent compartment, pulled of the top, lost the float pin and it became too dark, screw it til tomorrow, the 2 BBL BDD carter is easy to rebuild, just a pain of all the pieces, should get a 650 carb and alum intake and be done with it, it runs again it may never come apart again. Run it til it dies, want to restore but getting resentful towards it, btw I did move #1 cylinder plug wire to the CC tower marked #1 on the dist cap, seemed to run a little better. Took vacc hose off dist and revved it plugged; timing mark never moved. NAPA for all parts from now on, sorry Advance and Auto Zone, your parts suck! Would like to replace the ignition harnesses from the firewall out if I can find a new one reasonable.
Posted By: jsswope67
Re: 318 timing sprocket marks - 05/14/12 09:25 PM
Got the third carb on, after freeing it up and building the top part and cleaning it,resolves some of the carb probs, idles runs smoother was loading up didn't drive it, pulled the drivers valve cover, I forget the first valve is exhaust? With the solid mark on zero and the rotor button pointing towards firewall I hand turn it back to the solid mark again COUNTERCLOCKWISE, half turn on the dist )(FULL CC TURN ON THE CRANK BY HAND) and the rotor button points out front, (Note I am turning CC cause its easier from my vantage point and to watch the valves, on this first rotation the first valve opens, I stop to line up then turn by hand again so rotor button points to firewall, full turn half on the dist, valve #2 on cylinder 1 never moves, its either stuck or cam is worn??? I pulled all the plugs and cylinder #4 had lots of soot, so it is time to take the heads of and look for worn or stuck valves? Oh and drivers side valve cover had some pasty white milk on the top inside of it, not a ton but some. A bit on the inside top facing firewall.
in the rain
Posted By: jsswope67
Re: 318 timing sprocket marks - 05/15/12 03:01 AM
If the 2nd valve is intake it never moved, turned the crank twice.
Posted By: jsswope67
Re: 318 timing sprocket marks - 05/15/12 06:37 AM
Cylinder #1 intake valve is def not moving,
'77 Chrysler small block 318
Left side valves are #1 EI #3-EI #5-EI 7-#EI
Right side valves are #2-IE #4-IE #6-IE #8-IE
Automatic trans calls for 8 degrees top dead center Specs from 1979 Edition of Peterson's Big Book of Auto Repair-
May pull cover and check right side
#1 exhaust valve opens on exhaust but not intake
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: 318 timing sprocket marks - 05/15/12 02:30 PM
Quote:
Cylinder #1 intake valve is def not moving,
'77 Chrysler small block 318
Left side valves are #1 EI #3-EI #5-EI 7-#EI
Right side valves are #2-IE #4-IE #6-IE #8-IE
Automatic trans calls for 8 degrees top dead center Specs from 1979 Edition of Peterson's Big Book of Auto Repair-
May pull cover and check right side
#1 exhaust valve opens on exhaust but not intake
Have you checked for a loose rocker arm on #1 intake ?
also your valve layout above is wrong unless you have a smallblock ford .. i think that is the SBF layout.
Mopar both big and small block , not the hemi have paired intakes and exh.
E II EE II E
Sounds like you have a flat cam lobe or the pushrod is so bent that it's not moving the valve.
Posted By: jsswope67
Re: 318 timing sprocket marks - 05/15/12 07:51 PM
Going to recheck it for movement, in a bit. If I remember correct the pushrod was a bit tight, it did move a few months ago. I believe cylinders 3 and 4 had the most soot on the spark plugs if thats another clue.
You're correct on the sequence except for my engine 318
340, 360, 383, 400, 426, and 440 the sequence you sent
318 is EI EI EI EI for left side
then IE IE IE IE for right side
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: 318 timing sprocket marks - 05/15/12 09:59 PM
Quote:
Going to recheck it for movement, in a bit. If I remember correct the pushrod was a bit tight, it did move a few months ago. I believe cylinders 3 and 4 had the most soot on the spark plugs if thats another clue.
You're correct on the sequence except for my engine 318
340, 360, 383, 400, 426, and 440 the sequence you sent
318 is EI EI EI EI for left side
then IE IE IE IE for right side
That is impossible unless you have a poly head 318 ???
The heads for the 340/360 can be bolted onto a 318, the manifolds sold to fit LA engines all fit 318's and 340/360's .
Posted By: jsswope67
Re: 318 timing sprocket marks - 05/15/12 10:07 PM
I'm taking that info out of the 1979 Peterson Book for the sequence unless its a misprint.
I'l like to find a set of 360 heads if you know of any.
Not familiar with a poly head, how do I tell?
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: 318 timing sprocket marks - 05/15/12 10:13 PM
Quote:
I'm taking that info out of the 1979 Peterson Book for the sequence unless its a misprint.
I'l like to find a set of 360 heads if you know of any.
Not familiar with a poly head, how do I tell?
It's a misprint .
Poly head is completely different.
Posted By: jsswope67
Re: 318 timing sprocket marks - 05/16/12 02:29 AM
You can't just drop the dist in where you want the slot allows you to drop where you want, I am having the problem of cranking it up to TDC on cycle 2 after the intake valve opens on cylinder #1, I then crank it CC until solid dampener mark is about 10degrees before the timing cover 0 mark. Rotor points straight to rad, If I go to 0 on cover then the rotor would point to about 8 or 9 o'clock on the dist. TDC rarely points me to 5 o'clock, I didn't not try the difference between 2 marks yet though. Something is off. Rotor points straight 10 degrees BTDC on timing cover. TDC and the dist gear points straight to about 7 0clock, no luck after I tried it battery was weak 25% and choke is not closing properly. So between being cole and weak battery, didn't want to start even with starting fluid.
