Moparts
Gen 1 or 2 Viper Engine in a 1968 Dodge Dart
Posted By: MuuMuu101
Gen 1 or 2 Viper Engine in a 1968 Dodge Dart - 12/13/10 07:08 AM
Hello there, I currently have a 1968 Dodge Dart and I was thinking, instead of throwing a HEMI in there, I could probably buy a Gen 1 or 2 Viper Engine and Trans for half price of the engine itself and throw it in there. The car was an auto on the steering column so I will probably have to make a slot to fit the transmission boot and shifter. I do understand that the engine is 34.5 inches long so I'm guessing I am going to have to move the firewall back 2-4 inches (because a slant-six is around 30-31 inches long and almost hits the radiator. Speaking of radiators, I am probably going to need a custom one or an aftermarket one. Would a Be Cool Dual Fan Radiator work? Also, my dash is an issue because it has a large crack and I don't know how I'm suppose to get the gauges going to right speeds. Is there anywhere I can go to buy a custom dash and gauges that would fit? Any advice would help. Thank you
Posted By: 1_WILD_RT
Re: Gen 1 or 2 Viper Engine in a 1968 Dodge Dart - 12/13/10 07:14 AM
Rather than move the firewall you might check with OzHemi about an Aussie Valiant front clip... They are a few inches longer than US spec darts...
Posted By: OzHemi
Re: Gen 1 or 2 Viper Engine in a 1968 Dodge Dart - 12/13/10 07:20 AM
You'll want to be a decent fabricator....aside from the engine bay length...the K frame to oil pan clearance would be an issue I'd think, along with the torsion bar crossmember will probably need some notching to clear the T56. You'll need a fuel system to support it and do a wiring loom of course to run all the injection and ignition.
If you are pretty good at fabricating, wiring, etc it should not be all that huge an undertaking, but won't be a bolt in sort of deal of course.
Oh, and the VF/VG front structure is about 3.5" longer than a US car, but then you would be up for replacing everything from the firewall forward on the car, not a job for a novice of course.
I actually thought about the swap idea since I knew where there was a V10 and auto around from an SRT-10 truck, but got involved with my Torana project instead for now
Posted By: OzHemi
Re: Gen 1 or 2 Viper Engine in a 1968 Dodge Dart - 12/13/10 07:23 AM
Oh, and as for your gauges you could use the factory speedometer with the right adaptor (I am using one to run a mechanical speedo off of a T56)...
Probably would be able to adapt early sending units (piggybacked) onto the late engine as well to feed the other gauges.
Posted By: MuuMuu101
Re: Gen 1 or 2 Viper Engine in a 1968 Dodge Dart - 12/13/10 07:39 AM
Also with regards to the suspension, someone advised me to get a Mustang II Universal Front-End Suspension, if anyone has any experience with that. I'm actually currently studying to become a Mechanical Engineer, but it's my freshman year. I want to put a Dana 60 to handle the heat as well. Metallic Blue, Black Vinyl Roof. Some 17" Foose Rims. I think it would look nice. Approximately how much do you think it would cost if I had my mechanics do the Restoration?
Posted By: MuuMuu101
Re: Gen 1 or 2 Viper Engine in a 1968 Dodge Dart - 12/13/10 08:02 AM
I also forgot to ask, am I suppose to get an aftermarket steering wheel (So I don't have to deal with the extra column shifter)? And also, How I am suppose to get the extra clutch pedal in?
Posted By: Boise Chall
Re: Gen 1 or 2 Viper Engine in a 1968 Dodge Dart - 12/13/10 09:01 AM
I thought of doing this in my 72 Challenger I was going to use a truck V10 and build it until I got some prices. Then I looked at just a viper V10 and what mod parts cost for it in case I wanted to go faster. The price of parts outweighed to cool factor so I went with a 512 stroker Cheaper to build cheaper to maintain. With the lumpidy bump stick I have just the sound outweighs the v10 cool factor. It taught me that my right foot must somehow be connected to my reproductive organs because every time I push my right foot down I drop a couple potential children hahah
Posted By: bboogieart
Re: Gen 1 or 2 Viper Engine in a 1968 Dodge Dart - 12/13/10 10:40 AM
(Quote)
I'm actually currently studying to become a Mechanical Engineer
I would suggest you wait till you finish school and get a high paying Engineering job. Then you will "be" an engineer and you could design the whole thing yourself, and have the bucks to build it too. Think of the bucks you could make selling kits for them. What ever you do have fun.
Posted By: jrwoodjoe
Re: Gen 1 or 2 Viper Engine in a 1968 Dodge Dart - 12/13/10 01:14 PM
Quote:
(Quote)
I'm actually currently studying to become a Mechanical Engineer
I would suggest you wait till you finish school and get a high paying Engineering job. Then you will "be" an engineer and you could design the whole thing yourself, and have the bucks to build it too. Think of the bucks you could make selling kits for them. What ever you do have fun.
To the OP, I don't want to dampen you spirits or passion for Mopars....BUT...this is great advice. Like he said, if there is currently no kit available, then you could successsfully fab this and market it yourself. Not to mention, (hate to sound like a parent here but...) you could focus on school. If you want, just drive the Dart to "tool around in" while in school. Have fun and enjoy the car then it could become your project when you are done with your studies. Trying to dive into a project like you are talking about while still in school would not be good.
Oh, and this is coming from a guy who did a simple big block swap in college while working 3 pt jobs to pay for it (and school) and having so little money that Raman Noodle became his main food on a daily basis. 
Posted By: OzHemi
Re: Gen 1 or 2 Viper Engine in a 1968 Dodge Dart - 12/13/10 05:24 PM
If you are not sure on doing a clutch pedal swap even yet at this point, what you have in mind will be much more involved and will take a fair amount of your concentration, time and money to do properly. It would be a great swap if done right, but just make sure you are prepared to handle everything the project will throw at you is all...
Just saying that as someone who has done a few large build type projects. (and just on the downhill run of finishing a large build now)
Posted By: 70Cuda383
Re: Gen 1 or 2 Viper Engine in a 1968 Dodge Dart - 12/13/10 05:55 PM
word of advice, take some time and start to study these cars and start researching your options.
the V10 is EFI only, no carb manifolds for it unless you make one, and then you have spark control to figure out too. gotta keep the EFI, which means computers, wire harnesses, etc.
this will be a heavy fabrication job, lots of home made parts. time consuming or expensive.
I say to research it...completely! price the parts you think you'll need, save up, then save double that for unforseen expenses.
I thought I would do a "simple" big block swap to a Dakota. I knew I'd be making mounts/headers, and figured the rest would be easy.
I ran into so many tiny headaches that I didn't think about or that didn't go as planned.
I told the wife I could do it for 6-8K, including a build of the motor and purchasing the trans.
I spent about $13K. granted, a lot of my expense was the snowball effect...if I'm rebuilding, why not spend a little more on a stroker crank. if I'm reconditioning rods, why not spend a little more on new ones that are stronger...
the "stockish rebuild w/ cam" turned into a 500 hp stroker build.
Posted By: MuuMuu101
Re: Gen 1 or 2 Viper Engine in a 1968 Dodge Dart - 12/13/10 06:58 PM
Right, definitely. I have thought about creating custom mounts for Viper Engines to fit in a Mopar. I have done research, most of the Viper Engines I found for sale come with the wiring harnesses and ECU. The only problem I have is what I should do to the car so I don't get any more rust. I do have a little of surface rust on the car and in the trunk, but besides that, it's solid. I just need something to preserve the car for the next 3.5 years. Thanks a bunch.
Posted By: Big Bad Bee
Re: Gen 1 or 2 Viper Engine in a 1968 Dodge Dart - 12/13/10 08:02 PM
Blown340 has been working with a V10 Dakota project for a while. You might PM him and ask about his horror stories.
He's an engineer btw...
Posted By: BUBBAZ572
Re: Gen 1 or 2 Viper Engine in a 1968 Dodge Dart - 12/13/10 08:10 PM
IF YOU DO THIS GO WITH THE GEN 2 ENGINE.I WAS TOLD THERE ARE NO PLUG AND PLAY PARTS AVAILABLE FOR GEN 1 ENGINE
Posted By: MuuMuu101
Re: Gen 1 or 2 Viper Engine in a 1968 Dodge Dart - 12/13/10 08:12 PM
Quote:
IF YOU DO THIS GO WITH THE GEN 2 ENGINE.I WAS TOLD THERE ARE NO PLUG AND PLAY PARTS AVAILABLE FOR GEN 1 ENGINE
Gotchya. Anyway the GEN 2 Engine is lighter and produces more power.
Posted By: MuuMuu101
Re: Gen 1 or 2 Viper Engine in a 1968 Dodge Dart - 12/14/10 03:51 AM
Does anyone know if the GEN 3 or 4 Engine is the same length and width of the GEN 1 or 2 Engines? Does anyone know the dimensions of a Viper engine period? Thanks a lot!
Posted By: G_T
Re: Gen 1 or 2 Viper Engine in a 1968 Dodge Dart - 12/14/10 07:00 AM
Gen 1-4 are pretty close dimension wise. I'd have to check my Gen 3. I think the Gen 1 is a little more compact due to the induction setup. Width is not an issue (similiar to a small block).
Be prepared to heavily modify your car. Firewall, trans tunnel & cross member, K-frame. Best bet is to go with an alterkation front end then make custom mounts and tranny cross member. You'll find the stock steering box wont wont work - but with the alterkation you'll have a more modern rack and pinion. you'll need an idit or flaming river steering column.
Also know that many your gauges will not work - you'll need to replace them with electrical ones. Simple stuff like the tach and speedo can be a pita.
The Gen 1 engines have forged internals and simpler ignition systems - easier to modify. However, you can have any of the ignition systems modified. And yeah, you'll need a complete efi setup - custom/modified tank, pumps, etc.
The radiator will need to be custom made - first its large, second it has bigger 2" inlets/outlets. I ended up not only modifying the firewall/trans tunnel but also moved the radiator in front of the radiator support. This means customizing the hood latch, A/C, etc. etc.
Its certainly far from a simple swap - no one makes swap components. Especially exhaust.
Good luck
Posted By: MuuMuu101
Re: Gen 1 or 2 Viper Engine in a 1968 Dodge Dart - 12/14/10 07:17 AM
Quote:
Gen 1-4 are pretty close dimension wise. I'd have to check my Gen 3. I think the Gen 1 is a little more compact due to the induction setup. Width is not an issue (similiar to a small block).
Be prepared to heavily modify your car. Firewall, trans tunnel & cross member, K-frame. Best bet is to go with an alterkation front end then make custom mounts and tranny cross member. You'll find the stock steering box wont wont work - but with the alterkation you'll have a more modern rack and pinion. you'll need an idit or flaming river steering column.
Also know that many your gauges will not work - you'll need to replace them with electrical ones. Simple stuff like the tach and speedo can be a pita.
The Gen 1 engines have forged internals and simpler ignition systems - easier to modify. However, you can have any of the ignition systems modified. And yeah, you'll need a complete efi setup - custom/modified tank, pumps, etc.
The radiator will need to be custom made - first its large, second it has bigger 2" inlets/outlets. I ended up not only modifying the firewall/trans tunnel but also moved the radiator in front of the radiator support. This means customizing the hood latch, A/C, etc. etc.
Its certainly far from a simple swap - no one makes swap components. Especially exhaust.
Good luck
Now are you talking about Reilly Motorsports alterktion kit? That one is a bit pricey, $4k. But, hey, you got to go all out on something like this. Let me just verify by showing you the link:
http://www.reillymotorsports.com/store/product.php?productid=16182&cat=269&page=1
Posted By: quick77rt
Re: Gen 1 or 2 Viper Engine in a 1968 Dodge Dart - 12/14/10 07:32 AM
I WAS TOLD THERE ARE NO PLUG AND PLAY PARTS AVAILABLE FOR GEN 1 ENGINE
This is not true, there are some stand alone units that run off windows 95 software.
I had a new in crate production line 405hp gen1 unit, even test fitted it.
Cool yes, but at 800 pounds dressed without the trans and 405 hp NOPE...cool yes, a killer steet racer, no.
Good luck though.
Posted By: OzHemi
Re: Gen 1 or 2 Viper Engine in a 1968 Dodge Dart - 12/14/10 04:04 PM
Quote:
Simple stuff like the tach and speedo can be a pita.
You can get adapters to run them....I just did for an LS1 swap into an early car. A tach adaptor from Dakota Digital (that will work on 10 cylinder engine signals as well IIRC) and a electronic to mechanical speedo convertor that does the trick as well
Getting the gauges to work was alot simplier in my swap than building headers from scratch was (and having to do 2 more of them for a 10 cylinder would be even more fun I can imagine 
)
Posted By: Commando1
Re: Gen 1 or 2 Viper Engine in a 1968 Dodge Dart - 12/14/10 04:16 PM
Please don't take this the wrong way. I'm not casting aspersions on you but, judging from the way you asked your questions, my feeling is that you're way over your head in a project like that. I think the idea is cool and would love to see something done like that if done well. I just can't see it as a garage project. Regardless, WTH, if you got the ambition and skills, go for it.
FWIW, I can't see anyone w/o connections scoring a Viper drivetrain for 1/2 the price of a new gen HEMI. A Hemi out of a low mileage truck are around 1500 bucks around here.
Posted By: MuuMuu101
Re: Gen 1 or 2 Viper Engine in a 1968 Dodge Dart - 12/14/10 06:32 PM
Quote:
Please don't take this the wrong way. I'm not casting aspersions on you but, judging from the way you asked your questions, my feeling is that you're way over your head in a project like that. I think the idea is cool and would love to see something done like that if done well. I just can't see it as a garage project. Regardless, WTH, if you got the ambition and skills, go for it.
FWIW, I can't see anyone w/o connections scoring a Viper drivetrain for 1/2 the price of a new gen HEMI. A Hemi out of a low mileage truck are around 1500 bucks around here.
No hard feelings man. Once I get going with even the smallest idea in my mind, I elaborate on it for a month. 
Posted By: blown340
Re: Gen 1 or 2 Viper Engine in a 1968 Dodge Dart - 12/14/10 11:24 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Please don't take this the wrong way. I'm not casting aspersions on you but, judging from the way you asked your questions, my feeling is that you're way over your head in a project like that. I think the idea is cool and would love to see something done like that if done well. I just can't see it as a garage project. Regardless, WTH, if you got the ambition and skills, go for it.
FWIW, I can't see anyone w/o connections scoring a Viper drivetrain for 1/2 the price of a new gen HEMI. A Hemi out of a low mileage truck are around 1500 bucks around here.
No hard feelings man. Once I get going with even the smallest idea in my mind, I elaborate on it for a month.
I know just a tad about these swaps... I don't mean this to be rude, but with the basic questions your asking about minor modifications to the car, your going to be way way way over your head when it comes to custom fabricating a front subframe, firewall, crossmembers, custom efi harness, and don't forget the computer programming. I'm a mechanical engineer who also spent 3 years working as a racecar fabricator previously and I'm 2 years into this project. Granted thats largely about time and money, but still its not easy. My best advice would be to get the car going with a traditional drivetrain like a 360 or modern hemi or whatever and build up your skillsets before you jump into something like this.
Actually the real question is where are you going to school? If you are studying mechanical engineering and want to be able to tackle major projects like this in the future I would strongly recommend finding out if your school has a Formula SAE program. It is by far the best training you can get for this sort of stuff and will pay dividends throughout your engineering career as well.
-Jon
Posted By: blown340
Re: Gen 1 or 2 Viper Engine in a 1968 Dodge Dart - 12/14/10 11:26 PM
Formula SAE. yes this is a school project.
Posted By: Evil Spirit
Re: Gen 1 or 2 Viper Engine in a 1968 Dodge Dart - 12/15/10 04:21 AM
Here's something a little off the wall - are you familiar with the sound of the V-10's? Shop I used to work at had a customer with quite a few of them, not to mention we built the Tomahawk bikes, and I never liked the sound of any of them. Some of the Vipers had side pipes, some full exhaust with a variety of mufflers, and we also had a few customers with V-10 converted cars in for exhaust work and I never heard one that I liked. Same with the V-10 trucks, both Dodge and Ford. We could make them loud, but with the extra cylinders and a relatively smooth cam they just sounded flat to me, and several of the other mechanics thought the same thing. It may not be an issue to you, but I would hate for you to do all the work to install a V-10 and not be happy with the results.
Posted By: MuuMuu101
Re: Gen 1 or 2 Viper Engine in a 1968 Dodge Dart - 12/15/10 08:07 AM
Quote:
Formula SAE. yes this is a school project.
Right I go to a Cal Poly Pomona in CA which is a Polytechnic School and they have the Formula SAE team and I have been wanting to join for the life of me, but I am going to try to join my sophomore year because I would have taken more mechanical engineer classes. It just seems to be an amazing experience.
Posted By: Big Bad Bee
Re: Gen 1 or 2 Viper Engine in a 1968 Dodge Dart - 12/15/10 05:06 PM
Jon, I hadn't seen the V10 in that dak.
Where does the radiator go??? Looks awesome.
Posted By: Mr.Yuck
Re: Gen 1 or 2 Viper Engine in a 1968 Dodge Dart - 12/15/10 06:55 PM
I guess the question is do you have the skills to take on such a project? Also Do you have the equipment/tools? If this is your 1st build I'd try something a little less challeging like a S/B turbo or something. Sure it'd be cool but at some point you have to ask yourself am I going to be able to do this? Getting it all stuffed into the car is only half the battle.
As for the dash just look on e-bay for another unit. Getting the factory gagues to work will be a matter of finding the right sending units.
Good luck.
Posted By: blown340
Re: Gen 1 or 2 Viper Engine in a 1968 Dodge Dart - 12/16/10 06:43 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Formula SAE. yes this is a school project.
Right I go to a Cal Poly Pomona in CA which is a Polytechnic School and they have the Formula SAE team and I have been wanting to join for the life of me, but I am going to try to join my sophomore year because I would have taken more mechanical engineer classes. It just seems to be an amazing experience.
You don't need any experience to join! My Freshman year my contribution consisted of making some electrical connections, putting in rivets, and basically being a grunt moving stuff around the shop and holding things for people. Even just doing that little stuff I still learned a ton just by being around the process.
-Jon
Posted By: MuuMuu101
Re: Gen 1 or 2 Viper Engine in a 1968 Dodge Dart - 12/16/10 09:20 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Formula SAE. yes this is a school project.
Right I go to a Cal Poly Pomona in CA which is a Polytechnic School and they have the Formula SAE team and I have been wanting to join for the life of me, but I am going to try to join my sophomore year because I would have taken more mechanical engineer classes. It just seems to be an amazing experience.
You don't need any experience to join! My Freshman year my contribution consisted of making some electrical connections, putting in rivets, and basically being a grunt moving stuff around the shop and holding things for people. Even just doing that little stuff I still learned a ton just by being around the process.
-Jon
Cool, but I have a really hard year for my first year. Taking more than the recommended amount of courses. But after that it will be easy sailing . I really can't wait to join then. I would like to be one of the design captains by my junior or senior year.