Moparts

First 408 Stroker Build

Posted By: midnite360

First 408 Stroker Build - 11/02/10 09:52 AM

Hey!
About to start part collecting for a 408 stroker build. Looking for around 425 horses in the end. Any recommendations on Heads, Stroker Kits, Cams? Should I use a Magnum Block or stick with the old LA block? Would Love any Imput from you mopar maniacs!
Posted By: 4speeds4me

Re: First 408 Stroker Build - 11/02/10 06:20 PM

My advice, FWIW, would be to start with a Magnum if that's an option. Their heads are better to begin with, so if you need to stick with iron heads to start, it's a smaller handicap. As well, it gets you the option of roller cam without a fancy (read: expensive) conversion piece.

If Eddy Magnum heads fit in the budget, I'd do it. Not sure who's got the best bang-for-buck stroker kits these days, but I'd also recommend getting one that was internally balanced. Less hassle in the grand scheme of things.

My
Posted By: Baxter61

Re: First 408 Stroker Build - 11/02/10 06:22 PM

Id start with an LA block,4inch crank, and some RHS head prepped by IMM Engines. I think you'll far surpass your 425hp number for not too much money.
Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: First 408 Stroker Build - 11/02/10 06:40 PM

Quote:

Id start with an LA block,4inch crank, and some RHS head prepped by IMM Engines. I think you'll far surpass your 425hp number for not too much money.




What cam(s) would put you in the 425 range with a decent simple heads (IMM or E-brock).

Sure bigger cams will yield more HP, but looking for mellow and somewhat tame at idle and cruise.
Posted By: Baxter61

Re: First 408 Stroker Build - 11/02/10 07:00 PM

with a 408 you only need to make a tick over 1hp per cubic inch which wouldnt be too hard with good aftermarket heads. could be done with a hyd flat tappet if you wanted to. If you got the scratch Id run a small hyd roller. nothing trick and it'll get the job done.
Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: First 408 Stroker Build - 11/02/10 07:20 PM

Quote:

with a 408 you only need to make a tick over 1hp per cubic inch which wouldnt be too hard with good aftermarket heads. could be done with a hyd flat tappet if you wanted to. If you got the scratch Id run a small hyd roller. nothing trick and it'll get the job done.




Which hyd flat tappet for a little more than 1hp/cid ??

Would be nice to have a 112 centerline to keep the idle nice, but I don't see anything like that in the range I'm looking at.
Posted By: Mike Miller

Re: First 408 Stroker Build - 11/02/10 07:31 PM

Take a good look at the 60403 Lunati VooDoo cam .... if you want a little more, the 60404.

These cams are super good in street motors. They have a ton of low end thru to the redline. I have built several 408's for customers and they all seem to like shifting at 5800 (different cams in all of them including one with a solid roller) so keep that in mind. They will rev way past that but that seems to be a real happy point for the stroke.
Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: First 408 Stroker Build - 11/02/10 07:38 PM

Quote:

Take a good look at the 60403 Lunati VooDoo cam .... if you want a little more, the 60404.

These cams are super good in street motors. They have a ton of low end thru to the redline. I have built several 408's for customers and they all seem to like shifting at 5800 (different cams in all of them including one with a solid roller) so keep that in mind. They will rev way past that but that seems to be a real happy point for the stroke.




How do you think the comp XE274H compares in there? Idle and power wise.
Posted By: radar

Re: First 408 Stroker Build - 11/02/10 08:22 PM

I'm running the comp 275 extreme high lift cam in my cast crank 408 with ootb eddy heads. It seems like it runs out of steam around 5k or a little higher- runs real good around 4k. I wonder if anybody's got dyno or track #s for my combo. I was tempted to try a bigger cam but it idles pretty well at 950 and I drive mostly on the street...

Anyway for the OP, I do like my cam but just like everything else there are compromises.
Posted By: radar

Re: First 408 Stroker Build - 11/02/10 08:26 PM

I guess I got a little sidetracked on the cam. In general I used an LA block, eagle cast crank, sir rods, and KB forged pistons. I am happy with the car but I wish I had spent the extra $ on a forged crank and H beams. Of course if I had done that I would be wishing for a roller cam and a siamese block so I guess my best advice is to know what you want to do with it and figure out how much room to grow you want (overbuilt short block, or street setup).

radar
Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: First 408 Stroker Build - 11/02/10 08:35 PM

Quote:

I'm running the comp 275 extreme high lift cam in my cast crank 408 with ootb eddy heads. It seems like it runs out of steam around 5k or a little higher- runs real good around 4k. I wonder if anybody's got dyno or track #s for my combo. I was tempted to try a bigger cam but it idles pretty well at 950 and I drive mostly on the street...

Anyway for the OP, I do like my cam but just like everything else there are compromises.




It won't idle down much under 950 rpm? Sort of surprised the H/L version runs out of steam at 5,000 rpm.

You have flowmasters on it right? I've seen/heard a video of your car.
Posted By: topside

Re: First 408 Stroker Build - 11/03/10 01:22 AM

I used an Engle hydraulic flat-tappet in my 406 SB Duster; 214/224 @ .050, .470/.504 lift IIRC. Car ran great, idled smoothly but sounded stout, pulled plenty of vacuum for the power brakes & A/C, pulled 17MPG, had perfect throttle response, pulled to 6000 or so. It runs a Demonsizzler T-Quad on a Performer intake, cleaned up iron heads, basic headers.
Posted By: Streetwize

Re: First 408 Stroker Build - 11/03/10 02:25 AM

Great hydraulic cam for 408-416 with wall to wall torque and power is the Ultradyne 231/239 @ .050 on 108, IIRC it's like .483/.500 lift.

Gives you the great 'big block' grunt and still pulls to 6K with peak power around 5500
Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: First 408 Stroker Build - 11/03/10 03:18 AM

Quote:

Great hydraulic cam for 408-416 with wall to wall torque and power is the Ultradyne 231/239 @ .050 on 108, IIRC it's like .483/.500 lift.

Gives you the great 'big block' grunt and still pulls to 6K with peak power around 5500




Is that pretty rumpity at idle with its 108 centerline and duration? Is it significantly different sounding/running at idle than the XE275 at idle?

I've got: 416, E-brock heads, TTI's, Edelbrock RPM intake. I'm open to other intakes that fit under my stock hood. And I will clean up the heads some, but I can do more if it will be significant with my combo (I sort of doubt it). I run a 3.23 gear BUT I have really small diameter tires 24.5" that make it act like a 3.55 or more.
Posted By: goldmember

Re: First 408 Stroker Build - 11/03/10 03:42 AM

I agree with Wise on using the older UD hyd profiles. The 108lsa with those lobes will give a noticable idle but power brakes "should" still function in a stroker combo,but you could spread them to 110 or even 112 if idle vac is a big deal.They run better than most would think(based on specs.LOL) I use them to replace other hyd grinds and they work great. Tim @ Bullet racing cams can get you the cam you need.
Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: First 408 Stroker Build - 11/03/10 03:58 AM

Quote:

I agree with Wise on using the older UD hyd profiles. The 108lsa with those lobes will give a noticable idle but power brakes "should" still function in a stroker combo,but you could spread them to 110 or even 112 if idle vac is a big deal.They run better than most would think(based on specs.LOL) I use them to replace other hyd grinds and they work great. Tim @ Bullet racing cams can get you the cam you need.




Not looking for noticable idle. I don't have power brakes or A/C. Just not looking for that attention and noise.

By grinding 110 or 112 on that ultradyne are you hurting it much? Or better start with something different.
Posted By: goldmember

Re: First 408 Stroker Build - 11/03/10 04:14 AM

Quote:

Quote:

I agree with Wise on using the older UD hyd profiles. The 108lsa with those lobes will give a noticable idle but power brakes "should" still function in a stroker combo,but you could spread them to 110 or even 112 if idle vac is a big deal.They run better than most would think(based on specs.LOL) I use them to replace other hyd grinds and they work great. Tim @ Bullet racing cams can get you the cam you need.




Not looking for noticable idle. I don't have power brakes or A/C. Just not looking for that attention and noise.

By grinding 110 or 112 on that ultradyne are you hurting it much? Or better start with something different.


So you want a stock idle,like a stock 318/360 truck engine? As far as spreading the lobes to 112lsa yes, it will tame the idle and even the 108 isn't exactly radical in a 408.
Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: First 408 Stroker Build - 11/03/10 07:13 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

I agree with Wise on using the older UD hyd profiles. The 108lsa with those lobes will give a noticable idle but power brakes "should" still function in a stroker combo,but you could spread them to 110 or even 112 if idle vac is a big deal.They run better than most would think(based on specs.LOL) I use them to replace other hyd grinds and they work great. Tim @ Bullet racing cams can get you the cam you need.




Not looking for noticable idle. I don't have power brakes or A/C. Just not looking for that attention and noise.

By grinding 110 or 112 on that ultradyne are you hurting it much? Or better start with something different.


So you want a stock idle,like a stock 318/360 truck engine? As far as spreading the lobes to 112lsa yes, it will tame the idle and even the 108 isn't exactly radical in a 408.




I've got the P4452761 .268°/272°, 228°/231° @.050, .450/.455, 110° cam in there now with 340. And I'm familar with a XE268 in a 340. I can tolerate a next step louder than those.

Are you saying a 416 stroker gobbles up some of that smaller centerline effect? I've heard that.
Posted By: Streetwize

Re: First 408 Stroker Build - 11/03/10 11:38 AM

That ud is choppy but still very streetable in a 340-360 but not bad at all manners-wise. But in a 10:1 408 it's all about wall to wall torque, awesome kick down and roll on power coupled with a great, 'just right' idle. I've built dozens of strokers of all makes and to my mind and experience there's not a better all around grind for a mild street 4" stroke SBM; throw on a pair of decent heads, 1 5/8" headers and an RPM or RPM/AG intake with a 750DP and you'll have the perfect combo.

With this cam's lobes the 108 lobe spread will not upset a 4" stroke motor, you put the UD in at 102 in a heavier car (like a B or E or Truck) and 105 in a light A-body. Gearing really doesn't matter, the motor has such good all-around torque (like a wall to wall "sweet spot')it really doesn't care, and this cam's timing doesn't give you a ton of effective @ .050 overlap anyway. For a vert something as simple as a factory 340 or 383 road runnner high stall vert is the perfect 'low buck' match but a tight T/A 10" is even better.

What a lot of people don't seem to get with long arm motors is that cam phasing can be every bit as critical as the grind itself, And I've found you need at least 228-230 degrees on the intake for a 408 to be happy above 5K, with conventional heads and valve sizes a too small profile will hurt the top more than it helps the bottom.
Posted By: 4speeds4me

Re: First 408 Stroker Build - 11/03/10 06:04 PM

I had a 294º(248º @ .050)/.525" solid on a 112º CL in my 408 and it gave me 14 in/hg at an 850RPM idle...and quite frankly didn't really sound any different than a stock 360 at idle. It was kind of a letdown...
Posted By: Baxter61

Re: First 408 Stroker Build - 11/03/10 06:06 PM

Shoot, if you want a nice 408 build it a put a MP .509 in it, or go crazy and go with the MP .533!
Posted By: goldmember

Re: First 408 Stroker Build - 11/03/10 08:24 PM

I don't feel like typing so let me agree with Wise. Another advantage to these lobes is they are not fussy. Meaning no noise(as others often have),will rev till the crank falls out without anything special in the valvetrain. The only reasons to spread the lobes is to smooth the power band(take out the hit and hopefully make it easier to hook the tires to the pavement),as well as slightly higher idle vac and reduce the need for a high stall converter. In this case you won't need a high stall converter and traction may be your big problem. Another option is the H10 lobe,4 degrees shorter and a great lobe for a street build. I just finished a mild 360 for a local guy using the H10 lobes on a 108lsa. He was is extremely suprised and the only complaint has be a severe lack of traction,but he's running M/T 275/60-15's. He did almost kill himself doing burn outs but lucky for him he stopped inches short of the trees after clearing a ditch.LOL
Posted By: MonGoo$e

Re: First 408 Stroker Build - 11/04/10 12:48 AM

Make sure your engine guy knows how it's balanced, internal or external. I just went through this and he doesn't know and I'm having a nightmare with it.

iron heads, port/polish and it has 430ish horse with a dual plane
Posted By: Wedgeman

Re: First 408 Stroker Build - 11/04/10 02:39 AM

You need longer dur for these cubes...I have a 250/250* @ .050 mec cam purrrrs like a kitten on the road

Dan
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