Moparts
69 440
i just scored a 69' 440 long block, it was rebuilt by s&s remanfacting in Spokae WA, the guy i got it from never has installed it, it was still on the shipping crate and plastic, it has been oiled up and in good shape, i have no info with it, the guy i bought it from got it from a man who owed him some money, i have taken pics and have the number on the motor, can someone please give me the specs on this motor and also give me some good ideas how to care for this motor before i put in my car, also, it will be maybe 3mths before i can put in my car, how do i store this motor to keep the motor in good shape?
thanks
here is the date and the numbers on the side of the motor, does anybody have the specs by using only the numbers?
another
Posted By: Paul_B
Re: 69 440 - 10/29/10 04:30 AM
Difficult to know the specs of a rebuilt engine: i.e overbore for rebuild, what cam, pistons etc...
For storage, a plastic bag and oil will keep it nice.
i was told that it was built back to factory specs, factory cam, i know the bore may be bigger , i was just wondering if i could get the specs, i mean, what auto this engine wld have come in, what horespower rating and factory compression ratio, may factory cam specs, is this possible?
thanks
i know this is probaly going to be stupid question, what kinda of oil and how do i put oil on the motor and where do i put the oil? and before i put in the car, is there anything that i need to do special? or just put in my car, prime the oilpump and also put in some break end oil?
Quote:
here is the date and the numbers on the side of the motor, does anybody have the specs by using only the numbers?
There's no way to tell what cam or pistons are in it now since it's been rebuilt? Hopefully, it still has the forged crank? Someone with experience can tell by looking at it. A machine shop could determine the specs on it but they probably have to remove one head. You can get some idea of what the original specs were if you post a photo of the top engine pad. It's the flat area to the right of the distributor on the drivers' side with numbers and letters stamped on it. It should at least say E440 with some other letters and numbers. You can get an idea of what body it came out of from the partial VIN stamped in the milled area on the bottom of the side of the motor on the passenger side (just above the oil pan rail).
Quote:
what auto this engine wld have come in, what horespower rating and factory compression ratio, may factory cam specs, is this possible?
thanks
Look on the passenger's side for the full or partial VIN number. That may tell you the full VIN of the car or at least the plant where it was built. Then we can go from there.
it has F440 stamped on the pad, then under this is the numbers 12 2 2
the number on the passenger side block above the oil pan is 0196614
It's a 1970 motor assembled Dec 22, 1969 with a factory rating of 350 horse power, probably out of a C body. I think the only difference are the cam, valve size and carbureation. It would have an HP stamped on the top engine pad if it came in a muscle car, What are the casting numbers on the heads?
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: 69 440 - 10/29/10 12:27 PM
Quote:
i was told that it was built back to factory specs, factory cam, i know the bore may be bigger , i was just wondering if i could get the specs, i mean, what auto this engine wld have come in, what horespower rating and factory compression ratio, may factory cam specs, is this possible?
thanks
Doesn't matter what you were TOLD, it could have anything inside of it , first off unless it was rebuilt to factory 6pk specs there is NO EXACT replacement piston for a 440, I'd hazard a guess that the pistons in it are probably .100 below the deck and that's not a factory replacement piston for any 1970 440.
What you need to do is CALL the shop that rebuilt it and see if they can give you the info off the block , look for a tag or stamp of some sort .
Posted By: buck0123
Re: 69 440 - 10/29/10 09:16 PM
would a C body have a hp2 block. On the top pad it has E440 wouldn't that be a 69 engine?
i will have to get the numbers on the head for you and get back to you, i know they are 906 heads, thats all i know
thanks
hey John, i have emailed the company and they are trying to find the build sheet, i sure hope they can, i wld just like having the specs, i plan on changing the cam anyway, i wld just like to have this info, thanks for your help, i will post the results once i have them
thanks
hey Buck, it is really hard to see the stamping, i was thinking it was a f instead of e, i will have to look again tommorrow
thanks
Posted By: smac77
Re: 69 440 - 10/30/10 12:46 AM
Quote:
would a C body have a hp2 block. On the top pad it has E440 wouldn't that be a 69 engine?
thats roadrunnerjd's sample pic you're looking at not the one in question...
Quote:
i will have to get the numbers on the head for you and get back to you, i know they are 906 heads, thats all i know
thanks [/quote
It depends on what you want to do with it but with the 906 heads, it should run very strong in an every day street machine. Unless you expect to build an 11 second race car, I think it's likely to be a very good motor just with decent intake, ignition and the right carburation. With today's gas, you don't need 10.1:1 compression but my experience with the 68 and up blocks is that they will not generally have .100 deck height. The 67 blocks did because they had to keep the compression down with the small combustion chambers in the 67 and earlier heads. I would keep it in a controlled climate if possible but it won't rust too easily. It would be good if you could paint it, spray down the bare steel with some Mopar MP50 or equal and put a HD leaf bag over it to seal it up. It should be fine for months. 
hey roadrunner jd, the casting number on the pass. head is 2848906, i hope this is right, was very hard to read, hope this helps to solve the puzzle
thanks
i am planning to bump up the cam to comp cam , extreme engery 274/286 230/236 .488/.491 110, 2800stall, holley 750 vac. sec., headers, ready to run dist., i have 3.55 sure grip, 2 1.2 dual exhaust, what do you think about this set up in my 68'dodge coronet R/T?
where do i get this Mopar MP50 oil? or can i use something i can get at the parts house?
thanks
WD40 is similar. Your combo sounds very good if you are doing a street/strip. If it's just street and you are going to drive it a lot, you might consider one step down in the cam. If it's limited driving but a weekend warrior, go to a 4.10 or4.30 gear.
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: 69 440 - 10/30/10 02:23 PM
Quote:
would a C body have a hp2 block. On the top pad it has E440 wouldn't that be a 69 engine?
Yes a C body could have an HP 2 block, the ONLY thing the 2 signifies is the engine was ASSEMBLED on the SECOND SHIFT .
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: 69 440 - 10/30/10 02:28 PM
Quote:
hey John, i have emailed the company and they are trying to find the build sheet, i sure hope they can, i wld just like having the specs, i plan on changing the cam anyway, i wld just like to have this info, thanks for your help, i will post the results once i have them
thanks
Unfortunatly no one is going to be able to answer the question for you unless they have Xray vision works from 1000 miles away , sorry .
JD , I threw out the .100 in the hole number because the engine was rebuilt and that's the piston that usually ends up getting bought because it's the next step down from a 6pk piston . The 76 engine in Q5 Ed's 69 A12 was rebuilt and they rebuilt it to 76 spec instead of something resembling 69 spec, pistons were .175ish in the hole.
It sounds like this engine came from a general engine rebuilder, it wouldn't surprise me if that was the pistons it had .
Posted By: GTX MATT
Re: 69 440 - 10/30/10 06:28 PM
Quote:
Quote:
hey John, i have emailed the company and they are trying to find the build sheet, i sure hope they can, i wld just like having the specs, i plan on changing the cam anyway, i wld just like to have this info, thanks for your help, i will post the results once i have them
thanks
Unfortunatly no one is going to be able to answer the question for you unless they have Xray vision works from 1000 miles away , sorry .
JD , I threw out the .100 in the hole number because the engine was rebuilt and that's the piston that usually ends up getting bought because it's the next step down from a 6pk piston . The 76 engine in Q5 Ed's 69 A12 was rebuilt and they rebuilt it to 76 spec instead of something resembling 69 spec, pistons were .175ish in the hole.
It sounds like this engine came from a general engine rebuilder, it wouldn't surprise me if that was the pistons it had .
All of the big remanufacturers fill the engines with low performance junk. The engine will not be to stock spec because there is nothing sold as far as a camshaft or pistons that will put a 440 to stock high performance spec. A buddy of mine bought a Road Runner with the numbers matching 383 in it rebuilt by Jasper. It runs like a low performance 383 out of a C body. Runs nice though, just not a big power maker. It actually knocks down 20 mpg on the highway with 3.23s.
Posted By: dweller
Re: 69 440 - 10/31/10 06:51 PM
Looks like a cast crank to me...
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: 69 440 - 10/31/10 07:45 PM
Quote:
Looks like a cast crank to me...
DING DING DING ... WINNER ...
I didn't even notice that, OP I hope you really did SCORE that one cheap because you didn't get what you thought you got, cast crank, cheap replacement timing chain, I'd be willing to wager the pistons are late model low compression slugs .150-.175 in the hole .
If it we me I'd be pulling a head to see what is in there instead of waiting to hear from the shop that built that.
I agree. If it was mine, I would want to see what the top of the pistons looked like. I would be surprised if they are but it would change my plans if they are dished out. I would not worry about the cast crank but I would be worried about what kind of balancer and whether or not I needed to use an externally balanced flywheel or torque convertor since it's a 70 model motor?
well a good set of 906 heads rebuilt is around 500.00, i only pd 800.00 so there is noway i got ripped off, i cannot even buy the rebuild kit for a cast or forged cranked 440 for that, but it looks like i may need to take the engine to my local machine shop and have a tear down to really expose what i have before i put it in my car,
thanks for all the input
how do i tell if it is a cast crank or not?
i never rebuilt a motor, when i pulled the heads , what am i looking for, how do measure the amount the piston is in the hole?
sorry for all the questions
i just went to the web site of the rebuild company and this what they have listed on their site , this is what they did to the my 440
What are the engine specifications?
Engines remanufactured by our remanufacturing line meet or exceed O.E.M. specifications.
- New Manley valves
- New Elgin valve springs and keepers
- New Badger pistons
- New Hastings molly rings
- New Dynagear timing gears and Durabond cam bearings
- New Dynagear timing gears and chain
- New Elgin lifters, push rods, rockers, balls and nuts
- New Dynagear oil pump
- New FelPro gaskets
- Cylinder heads are pressure checked
- Diamond honed valve guides
- Three angle cut valve seats
- All head surfaces are broached
- Blocks are bored with deck plates, cylinder walls are diamond honed
- Crankshafts are ground and polished for .002 clearance
- Camshafts are ground to O.E.M. specifications, hardened and polished
- Connecting rods are sized to .002 clearance
Posted By: gtx69
Re: 69 440 - 11/01/10 05:28 AM
Don't go by everything you read.Sounds good to read what they said they did all that.Which i don't think so.
well i guess i am not a trained eye, everything looks to be new, the heads are awsome, all new springs, rocker arms, shafts, all new valves, new pistons, for the price , i cannot go wrong, i have a 68 forged crank, i guess worse case senerio is i will have to reinstall some better pistons and better cam, for 800.00 i think i am well ahead of the game on this motor.
i did go out and compare the forged crank to cast crank and now it is plain as day, i am really glad i did not pay anymore for unkown motor, i still think i can salvage this deal and be okay
Posted By: 62maxwgn
Re: 69 440 - 11/01/10 02:41 PM
That "other" brand has been using cast cranks for years,never seemed to be a problem.
how can i get a est. of the compression on this motor with taking off the head? i talked with the company today, they do not have build sheet , the guy sd they wld not have put lower than 9 to 1 he says this engine most likley 9.5 to 1 which wld be okay for me,
talked with the company today that rebuilt the motor, the build sheet is gone, and this is the email i got back from the manager, he says
That engine was sold as a 73-80 truck engine with a cast crank externally balanced. The blocks were all the same so the 69 was probably all we had at the time. Also that engine was purchased in April of 2007.
so if the motor was built as a truck motor, what will i need to change out to make it a car motor?
i have a buddy that has a set of trw forged pistons 10 to 1 and i have a forged crank, wld it be better for me to swap all this out?
thanks
Posted By: 451Mopar
Re: 69 440 - 11/02/10 08:32 AM
Quote:
talked with the company today that rebuilt the motor, the build sheet is gone, and this is the email i got back from the manager, he says
That engine was sold as a 73-80 truck engine with a cast crank externally balanced. The blocks were all the same so the 69 was probably all we had at the time. Also that engine was purchased in April of 2007.
so if the motor was built as a truck motor, what will i need to change out to make it a car motor?
i have a buddy that has a set of trw forged pistons 10 to 1 and i have a forged crank, wld it be better for me to swap all this out?
thanks
The engine looks nice. Sounds like it is built as mild low compression engine. My main concern is you will need to get the correct dampner and flexplate/converter/flywheel for the external balance cast crank. It would take alot to change the necessary parts to make it a high performance engine, so I suggest using it as it is.
If your set on a HP engine, you would want higher compression pistons and have the crank internally balanced. If you start changing parts out on that engine to make it a HP engine, I really think you would be money ahead to build a new performance engine and sell that one for a profit as you should be able to get more for it than what you paid?
Posted By: FJ6AAR
Re: 69 440 - 11/02/10 12:11 PM
Quote:
how do i tell if it is a cast crank or not?
If you look at the crankshaft "Casting line" in the photo you posted, you will see a thin line that is somewhat sharp and jagged. On a forged crank it will look like somebody took their finger and smoothed out that rough thin line (as if it was clay), making it about 3/8 to 7/16 wide. So, very thin line = cast, flat wider line = forged. You can also tell by the color and a lack of sharp crisp edges on the outer edges of the counter weights. Sharp crisp counter weights = cast, more rounded and sometimes missing some of the corner = forged. My dad owned a crankshaft grinding business for 31 years. Hope this helps, Rob
The 906 heads have the big exhaust valves. That's a plus. If the pistons are flat tops with or without valve reliefs, I would just go with the cam you want and the cast crank is no problem for your purposes. If the pistons are dished out, I would consider replacing the pistons and internal balancing. For the cost and time it would take to redo the motor, you can easily handle the externally balanced issue if the pistons in it give you any compression over 9:1...unless you are trying to build an all out race car?
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: 69 440 - 11/02/10 02:00 PM
Quote:
how can i get a est. of the compression on this motor with taking off the head? i talked with the company today, they do not have build sheet , the guy sd they wld not have put lower than 9 to 1 he says this engine most likley 9.5 to 1 which wld be okay for me,
Sorry, but they are full of it ... PULL the head, it's not that big a deal.
JD , I can't remember ever seeing a dished 440 piston other than a lightweight forged piece. instead of using a dish Chrysler just lowered the piston in the hole, but did the aftermarket make a cast dish piston ?
I bought a used set of pistons and rods just for the rods. The pistons were dished out and supposedly came from a mid-70's motor home engine. I doubt that the remanufactured motor would have those but I agree with you, it's really easy to pull the head and check it out. He sounds inexperienced but should be able to find someone who can help show him how to do it.
Every Badger 440 piston I have heard of has been a stock replacement mid 70's piston. And since that's how they said they built it, you will have about 7.8:1 or so compression. You will have to pull a head and measure to be sure. You remove a head, rotate the crank until that piston is at the top of its travel and use a caliper to measure how far down in the hole it is. Sounds to me you have a 99% chance of it being a mile in the hole 70's smogger piston. I would measure the overbore and order new pistons, have them installed on your rods and have the assy balanced. You will be miles ahead if you do this instead of using those low-cr pistons. They should just stop making those crappy low compression pistons but the mass rebuilders just keep buying them for their cheapie rebuilds. I would probably go with a set of KB237 pistons.
They may not be a low compression piston but probably are I'd it's a 74 spec? Badger makes a good piston. I think they may have been a vendor to Chrysler for years? I had to get a couple of +.020 factory replacement pistons for my old A12. They were Badger and I heard they were the original vendor? They looked the same as my originals.
the Guy at the rebuilding company sd that they use the flat top pistons, however, i guess i will need to pull the head to find out what is under there, thanks for all the input and i will post update once i pull the head and find out
with the oil pan already off the motor, i have the motor on my engine stand, can i turn the motor upside down on my stand and try to get some part numbers off the pistons? or check the rods to find out what is there?
i already have a forged crank from a D-440 block, i also have the rods, i really want a better compression engine, i already have a 73'motorhome motor in my car now, i was trying to get a more correct motor for my car, i think i will take my crank to the machine shop and see if it is any good and also pull off the head to see what i have for pistons and then i guess i can make a better choice, i really do not want to sell this motor then because of the lack of motors around my area, Jackson MS, i have a good starting point to build a good street motor
thanks
Randy
Posted By: 1_WILD_RT
Re: 69 440 - 11/03/10 04:07 AM
There are lots of flat tops.. Some will give a true 10.5 C/R & others will only give a 7.8 it depends on the compression height of the piston... When you pull a head bring a piston up to TDC & measure how far the piston is down the bore... To accurately measure this you need a few special tools but you can get a reasonable measurement with straight edge & a feeler gauge...To get a true 10.5 with 88cc heads on a 440 would require the piston comes up to exactly flush with the deck surface of the block and a thin head gasket... Very few do.. A piston .150 "in the hole" and a normal head gasket gets you 7.8... BTW .150 is just a little over 1/8th" or about the thickness of two nickels...
thanks RoadRunner JD, i really did not want to hear this, but after 3.5years of this project nothing surprises me anymore, this project has really tested my patience, coming from chevy to mopar has been a really learning experience, however once i have the mopar built, i will have something, the chevys are dime a dozen, i just hope i do not have to cash in my 401k to finish it
hey Randy,
i knew you wld chime in here sooner or later, i appreciate you input , guess it is back to the drawing board on this deal
i most likley will change out the crank and pistons
thanks for the 101 on Cast vs Forged!
thanks JohnRR , i will post my findins when i pull the head, i have go a better of mine that can help me pull the head, i do not know when i can do this, however, when i do , i will post my findings
Posted By: 1_WILD_RT
Re: 69 440 - 11/03/10 04:23 AM
Now a dose of reality... With 906 heads to run 10.5 C/R you'll likely be mixing race fuel to keep from detonating... Open chamber iron heads are not your friend.... But since you have fresh 906's I wouldn't be changing them... But I would consider having them milled.. Take the heads off & get us a number... If the pistons measure .090 in the hole & you cut the heads .050 & use a thin gasket you'll be around 9.5 which with open chambered iron heads is right where you want to be... Get a depth & get back to us..
i will do this, thanks for the tech
Posted By: 451Mopar
Re: 69 440 - 11/03/10 06:04 AM
More info always helps.
What is the engine going into?
What is the application? (daily driver, street, performance, race?)
What transmission, stall speed, rear gearing, tire size?
What are your performance expectations?
What are your budget expectations?
Also, you don't have to pull the heads. You could turn the engine on the engine stand to where the spark plug is the highest point. set the piston to TDC (both valves closed or remover rocker arms), and cc the chamber volume directly by filling through the spark plug hole.
Assuming a 0.030" over bore (4.350" bore x 3.75" stroke) the piston swept volume should be 55.73 cid = 913.44 cc's.
Here is a list of chamber volumes above the piston at TDC and what the compression ratio would be:
CC's CR
90 11.16
95 10.62
100 10.13
105 9.70
110 9.30
115 8.94
120 8.61
125 8.31
130 8.03
You would want to cc the chamber using some oil so it won't run past the ring gaps, or cause rust in the chamber/bore.
What is the engine going into? 68'dodge coronet
What is the application? (daily driver, street, performance, race?) street car
What transmission, stall speed, rear gearing, tire size? 727/stock convertor/ 3.55 275/60/15
What are your performance expectations? good sounding driveable street car
What are your budget expectations? cheap as possible
so i wld measure out the cc's of oil it wld take to fill up the #1 cylinder at tdc on the compression stroke, and if my motor is bored 30over i wld use the chart you post?
here is a pic of car
Posted By: 451Mopar
Re: 69 440 - 11/04/10 04:31 AM
Quote:
so i wld measure out the cc's of oil it wld take to fill up the #1 cylinder at tdc on the compression stroke, and if my motor is bored 30over i wld use the chart you post?
Yes. No need to tear the engine apart.
You could also measure/degree the cam to figure out what duration size it is, what the max lift is, and how it is installed.
With your stock setup, and for street application you may not want to change much.
You could install some cheap 1.7:1 rocker arms to get more performance from the cam you have.
Example:
CAT 1.7:1 Stainless steel rocker assembly $360.
http://www.catpep.com/searchengine/searchengine.asp?parttype=27&enginetype=13
Quote:
...What are your performance expectations? good sounding driveable street car...cheap as possible
I'm going to say this again because I think everyone is making too big of a deal about the crank. I would not worry about having a cast crank. It is a question of dollars versus bang for the buck. You are not building a 600hp race car and it will be fine for a good sounding street machine! Milling the heads .050 will likely mean you also have to mill the intake side of the heads in order for the intake to fit. If you find that you have the pistons down in the hole more than .060" and depending on if the heads have already been milled, which they probably have, I would mill them no more than .020" and ditch the thick Felpro gaskets and install thin steel gaskets. What you really want to do is pull a head, see if the pistons are flat tops and how far down in the cylinder they are at top dead center. Chances are they are OK, you could probably pass on milling the heads, install the thin head gaskets and cam and you'll have a perfectly good sounding, healthy street machine. Spend more money to get more horsepower and it also becomes a little less streetable the more you do to it. It's your choice how far you want to go with it but you do have a nice fresh motor. You can do all that stuff to it but it's going to take time and money.
well i guess we have finally got down to the real factor in what i do with the motor, the lack of money, i have been working on the car since 10/07 and have just about depleted all my funds for the project, i really want to know the exacts on the motor, so i guess i will bite the bullet and just pull 1 of the heads to get a good look at what i am dealing with, i will post my findings and we can go from there,
i want to thank everybody for all the great input and the great advice,
Posted By: SomeCarGuy
Re: 69 440 - 11/04/10 01:28 PM
Change the cam to something close to the OEM size HP cam and be done with it. You will be spending quite a bit to change pistons. Really not worth it for a street car.
So it won't be optimal. Big deal. Cast crank is fine. Just get a balancer and torque convertor setup that will match. B&M used to make a flexplate that takes care of the weight on that end. That leaves you needing a balancer.
I would also go ahead and paint it before storing.
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: 69 440 - 11/04/10 02:55 PM
Quote:
Quote:
so i wld measure out the cc's of oil it wld take to fill up the #1 cylinder at tdc on the compression stroke, and if my motor is bored 30over i wld use the chart you post?
Yes. No need to tear the engine apart.
You could also measure/degree the cam to figure out what duration size it is, what the max lift is, and how it is installed.
With your stock setup, and for street application you may not want to change much.
You could install some cheap 1.7:1 rocker arms to get more performance from the cam you have.
Example:
CAT 1.7:1 Stainless steel rocker assembly $360.
http://www.catpep.com/searchengine/searchengine.asp?parttype=27&enginetype=13
There you go , use CCJ rockers and you'll be doing a shortblock in no time
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: 69 440 - 11/04/10 03:01 PM
Quote:
well i guess we have finally got down to the real factor in what i do with the motor, the lack of money, i have been working on the car since 10/07 and have just about depleted all my funds for the project, i really want to know the exacts on the motor, so i guess i will bite the bullet and just pull 1 of the heads to get a good look at what i am dealing with, i will post my findings and we can go from there,
i want to thank everybody for all the great input and the great advice,
Finally , that only took 6 days to sink in .
As said don't worry bout the cast crank and you don't need to do a CC volume of the piston at TDC all you need to do is either measure how far down it is or just post the number engraved in the piston and someone can get the specs and it will be BALL PARK as to where it actually is . Change the cam , skip the cheap chinese junk rockers , and put it back to gether . be forewarned , if you go shaving .050 off the heads you will more than likely need shorter pushrods , though some 
will tell you to just put shims under the rocker stands.
Use a dual plane intake , your choice of either headers or HP manifolds and you'll be good to go , it's not going to be a barn burner but it will accomplish what you want .
Posted By: 451Mopar
Re: 69 440 - 11/05/10 02:46 AM
Quote:
Quote:
well i guess we have finally got down to the real factor in what i do with the motor, the lack of money, i have been working on the car since 10/07 and have just about depleted all my funds for the project, i really want to know the exacts on the motor, so i guess i will bite the bullet and just pull 1 of the heads to get a good look at what i am dealing with, i will post my findings and we can go from there,
i want to thank everybody for all the great input and the great advice,
Finally , that only took 6 days to sink in .
As said don't worry bout the cast crank and you don't need to do a CC volume of the piston at TDC all you need to do is either measure how far down it is or just post the number engraved in the piston and someone can get the specs and it will be BALL PARK as to where it actually is . Change the cam , skip the cheap chinese junk rockers , and put it back to gether . be forewarned , if you go shaving .050 off the heads you will more than likely need shorter pushrods , though some will tell you to just put shims under the rocker stands.
Use a dual plane intake , your choice of either headers or HP manifolds and you'll be good to go , it's not going to be a barn burner but it will accomplish what you want .
Cast crank is fine, but why have the guy pull the engine apart, change cams, mill heads, etc if he does not need to. Were just trying to get an estimate of the compression ratio and cam size.
If funds are tight, changing pistons, or cranks, may not be an option because of posable extra cost of balancing, although I have no idea how good the balance with the cast crank actually is if the dampner and flexplate/converter were not balanced with the engine?
Because we don't know what size the cam is, I really recommend measuring it. I am thinking it will be OK for the intended use and compression ratio, but more rocker ratio would give it a bit extra lift and duration at the valve, getting a bit more flow from the heads. Spend the extra money on a good intake, carb, fuel system, ignition system, exhaust, and maybe a repo hemi oil pan and pickup. Not to mention a decent cooling system.
I know the CAT rockers are not in the same league as T&D, Harlan Sharpe, or Jesel, but with a mild hydraulic cam and open spring pressures of maybe #350 max the cheap rockers work fine. Being really cheap you could get the 1.7:1 ratio aluminum rockers for $200.
A guy in our car club has been running them aluminum rockers on a near stock 440 for at least the last two or three years with no issues.
, john i have been listening, i guess i was kinda bummed out about the motor not being a forged crank, i really understand this is not a big deal, i will post my findings when i pull the head, i do have eddy rpm intake, 750 holley carb, headers, ready to run dist., 3.55 sure grip rear end,
thanks
hey James, i think i am going to opt to change out the cam to a comp xe268 instead of the rockers, i really appreciate the tech 101 on getting the compression ratio without taking off the head, did not know this could be done
and also the info on getting the cam info,
thanks
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: 69 440 - 11/05/10 04:52 AM
Quote:
I know the CAT rockers are not in the same league as T&D, Harlan Sharpe, or Jesel, but with a mild hydraulic cam and open spring pressures of maybe #350 max the cheap rockers work fine. Being really cheap you could get the 1.7:1 ratio aluminum rockers for $200.
A guy in our car club has been running them aluminum rockers on a near stock 440 for at least the last two or three years with no issues.
I'd rather not take my chances on the cheap rockers , that's funny you dropped names of the big buck rockers , I don't consider cats better than STAMPED STEEL rockers .
Your friend running them has been LUCKY , there is a very prominent member of this board that had a set of CCJ rockers fail with less than 500 miles on them , wasted his shortblock on his blown 440 , wasn't worth the few busks he saved on the rockers .
Posted By: 451Mopar
Re: 69 440 - 11/05/10 05:45 AM
Quote:
Quote:
I know the CAT rockers are not in the same league as T&D, Harlan Sharpe, or Jesel, but with a mild hydraulic cam and open spring pressures of maybe #350 max the cheap rockers work fine. Being really cheap you could get the 1.7:1 ratio aluminum rockers for $200.
A guy in our car club has been running them aluminum rockers on a near stock 440 for at least the last two or three years with no issues.
I'd rather not take my chances on the cheap rockers , that's funny you dropped names of the big buck rockers , I don't consider cats better than STAMPED STEEL rockers .
Your friend running them has been LUCKY , there is a very prominent member of this board that had a set of CCJ rockers fail with less than 500 miles on them , wasted his shortblock on his blown 440 , wasn't worth the few busks he saved on the rockers .
I really was just tring to say the higher ratio rockers may be an option unsted of replacing the cam. You could do the same with different brand rocker arms, but were talking really mild spring pressures, and RPM levels of maybe 5,500?
not to mention this is a $500 engine. Replacing the cam or rockers will nearly double the engines cost.
I have never used the CAT stuff myself, I just know a few guys who have.
I'll take any verifiable info on parts breakage so I can warn my friends. Which rockers broke (aluminum or stainless), were the CAT brand or other off-shore brand, what were the cam specs and valve spring pressures, what was the max RPM, what part of the rocker failed (body, adjuster, roller, etc?)
I still recommend measuring the cam in the engine, they may have installed a cam that may be near the same as the replacement one your considering?
On the other hand new head gaskets are about $15 for the standard Fel-Pros. Not sure of the cost of the steel shim gaskets.
Posted By: 451Mopar
Re: 69 440 - 11/05/10 06:58 AM
I just couldn't help myself, I just bought a set of the CAT Stainless rockers for $209.95 + shipping (total $233.63.)
http://208.64.226.233/index.php?cPath=73I'll let you know if it's a deal or Junk when I get them. I will try them out on my out-of-the-box stealth heads, just drop them on the old 440 and see if I can break anything since I plan on rebuilding the engine next year anyhow.
i know this is going to be dumb question, what is the advantage in having these rockers or the stock rockers? i know you said something about getting more lift out of the cam, how does this work?
Posted By: 451Mopar
Re: 69 440 - 11/06/10 11:51 PM
The rocker arm ratio multiplies the cam lobe list at the valves. Example, a stock HP cam has 0.450" advertised valve lift using the stock 1.5:1 ratio rocker arm. This means the cams max lobe lift is 0.450/1.50=0.300".
If a 1.7:1 rocker arm is used, the lift at the valve is now 0.510". Because the rocker arm multiplies the lobe lift, any time the tappet is off the cams base circle the valves will see the extra lift, so the engine thinks it has a slightly larger cam.
There are always trade offs. The extra lift will mean the heads, springs, and piston to valve clearances need to be checked. Hopefully I'll have the rockers later next week, and I'll start my experiment. I have some pushrods that might work, but I won't know till I get the heads on the engine.
Also, stock rocker arms are not adjustable, and usually the true rocker ratio is less than 1.5:1.
Posted By: 451Mopar
Re: 69 440 - 11/17/10 04:37 AM
If anyone cares, I got the CAT rockers today, and they are about what you would expect for the price, cheap. The shafts and rocker bodies with bronze bushings look decent, but the adjusters, hold down bolts, and stamped steel shaft hold downs are cheap. The HEX broching in the adjusters is sloppy and very tight to get a hex wrench into, the one I checked did not turn smoothly, but I think some cleanup and they will be OK. The adjusters are for ball end pushrods, and are setup that with proper length pushrods the adjuster is flush with the body, but it should oil fine if adjusted to where a few threads are showing below the bottom of the rocker. The roller top seems slopy too, and the sides of the rocker arm come down on each side of the valve stem. They clear the stock install height/retainers of the stealth heads. I also think they may be too narrow to use lash caps if you wanted to. The geometry does not look too bad, a bit to the inside of the valve stem. Not really an issue for a mild setup. I have not put checking springs on yet to check a full sweep or actual rocker ratio. These also were not packaged like you would run them. One shaft had all the right hand offset rocker arms, and the other shaft had all left hand offset rockers. The stamped steel hold downs are a copy of the stock ones, but the stamping in not correct to use as they come. the tabs on the ends that align the rockers are not stamped 90-degrees to the shafts, so they try to push the rockers out of alignment. It is easy to fix this with a hammer, or just re-use your originals. The hold down bolts are black oxide with no grade markings, in fact no markings at all as the the strength of the bolts?
Thats it for now. I will try to get picture, and more info tomorrow.
hey James, do you think it is worth the money for them? what horsepower gain do you think you can get with them?
Posted By: 451Mopar
Re: 69 440 - 11/17/10 07:23 AM
Quote:
hey James, do you think it is worth the money for them? what horsepower gain do you think you can get with them?
That's what I'm going to find out. In a mild application I think they may be worth the $210+shipping? I'm not sure what power gain they may be worth. I'll post more info when I get time to do some testing and verification on the parts. I am already planing to test the strength of the hold down bolts, basically torque one till it snaps.
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: 69 440 - 11/17/10 03:21 PM
Quote:
Quote:
hey James, do you think it is worth the money for them? what horsepower gain do you think you can get with them?
That's what I'm going to find out. In a mild application I think they may be worth the $210+shipping? I'm not sure what power gain they may be worth. I'll post more info when I get time to do some testing and verification on the parts. I am already planing to test the strength of the hold down bolts, basically torque one till it snaps.
The scary part on those rockers, and what usually breaks, is the shaft that the valve roller tip rides on, you won't know about that till it happens, if you're lucky it won't unseat the valve locks and drop the valve.
Posted By: forphorty
Re: 69 440 - 11/18/10 01:22 AM
I wouldn't run the Cats either. Besides, i think you have to grind the stock heads for pushrod clearance with a 1.7 rocker, even with the 1.6 i think.