Moparts
Dyno'd my 440 and was disappointed - Questions question
Posted By: NOrrTH
Dyno'd my 440 and was disappointed - Questions question - 08/10/10 01:02 AM
First off, I'm a dumb noob so be merciful.
I bought an Ebay car and the seller couldnt tell me anything about the motor other than it had a fresh rebuild.
What I do know about it is that its a 70 440 hp block, rough idle cam, 1 7/8 Hooker Comp, Eddy Performer 440, Eddy 750 Comp Series carb, is only happy running on 94 Octane, and no, it doesn't blow blue.
I had a reputable race guy put it on his chassis dyno and he said, "It makes good power. Who ever built it really new what they were doing. The air fuel is perfect." and hands me the sheet.
279 max hp
358 max torque
I said, "I was hoping for more." He said, "You dont really wanna be making much more than that cause stuff will start breaking, besides, thats about all these things make."
So I called my cousin who's been drag racing all his life and he says you lose about 100 hp through the drive train. If I want more I need new heads, most of the power is in head design.
I dont doubt what these guys are saying. I'm just scratching my head reading all the posts here where people are saying you can get 500hp out of a 440 by sneezing at it and I'm lucky if I'm making stock HP with better intake, headers and whats got to be a lumpier than stock cam.
If my compression was way low, wouldn't I be able to run lower octane gas? How bad can my heads be if thats the issue? Are people exaggerating their hp estimates here?
Posted By: blownzoom440
Re: Dyno'd my 440 and was disappointed - Questions question - 08/10/10 01:07 AM
i am sure you can get more HP.figureout what you engine has in it.
Posted By: DusterKrazy
Re: Dyno'd my 440 and was disappointed - Questions question - 08/10/10 01:18 AM
The Edelbrock 750 is not that great IMO. But I think that dyno guy is full of BS. Something must be wrong for it to be that down on power
Posted By: lokalik
Re: Dyno'd my 440 and was disappointed - Questions question - 08/10/10 01:18 AM
on a chassis dyno my 383 made 325hp and 350tq. bored 30, almost zero deck, eddy performer rpm heads, 6pk, hughes 510 lift roller cam, tti's. i agree can't fix it until you know whats in it. you culd have parts that don't work well together.
Posted By: RapidRobert
Re: Dyno'd my 440 and was disappointed - Questions question - 08/10/10 01:19 AM
Do a compression test (& post what you get) and what heads are on it/vac at idle/timing/idle speed?
Posted By: mickm
Re: Dyno'd my 440 and was disappointed - Questions question - 08/10/10 01:21 AM
Quote:
I said, "I was hoping for more." He said, "You dont really wanna be making much more than that cause stuff will start breaking, besides, thats about all these things make."
that is a ridiculous statement, for just about any engine, let alone a 440!
if you really want to know where you are, you should start with a compression and a leakdown test. then you have to determine what cam you have in there. if the A/F is good all the way through the range, then that isn't too suspect, but that also doesn't mean you aren't under/over carb'ed for you setup.
look at where your timing is. that's not worth 100hp, but it can make a big difference.
there are many theories out there, but most people somewhat agree that you lose about 15% through the powertrain for a manual, and about 20% for an auto. i've heard higher, and i've heard lower, those seem like middle of the road stats to me.
but yes, you do need to figure out the cam, the compression to whatever degree you can, what heads it is running, and take it from there.
Posted By: DusterKrazy
Re: Dyno'd my 440 and was disappointed - Questions question - 08/10/10 01:30 AM
Quote:
on a chassis dyno my 383 made 325hp and 350tq. bored 30, almost zero deck, eddy performer rpm heads, 6pk, hughes 510 lift roller cam, tti's. i agree can't fix it until you know whats in it. you culd have parts that don't work well together.
325 horsepower at the wheels is awesome for a 383!! 
Posted By: NOrrTH
Re: Dyno'd my 440 and was disappointed - Questions question - 08/10/10 01:40 AM
Thanks guys, I'll get on it.
Posted By: MikeyT
Re: Dyno'd my 440 and was disappointed - Questions question - 08/10/10 01:40 AM
What kind of dyno was it? I had mine dynoed on a mustang 1000 dyno and had similar build and I made 305 hp and 416 torque on the dyno, but changed up carb and timing quite a bit and it picked up an additional 20 hp. Their is still more in it. I just have to find time to play with it more!
Here is some ideas. I use to run a 750 eddy carb, and it needed to be jetted up 2 sizes. I also found that my 440 was best after setting timing at 35 degrees at 3000 rpms.
If it was me I would call Don Gould over at FBO and discuss with him your build and see if you can get more out of it. He does a lot with mopars and could give you some clues.
He's currently building me a distributor for my set up and I think I'll get more out of it.
Mike
Posted By: ahy
Re: Dyno'd my 440 and was disappointed - Questions question - 08/10/10 02:11 AM
The 440 "in the day" was rated 350 HP SAE gross at the crank. With 20% loss for accessories and the driveline that's 280 HP on a chassis dyno.
Sounds like you are close to the original factory rating... and super premium fuel requirement.
Posted By: ahy
Re: Dyno'd my 440 and was disappointed - Questions question - 08/10/10 02:30 AM
PS... 500 HP gross/400 at the wheels is doable with a 440 with pump gas. Piston, ported aluminum cylinder head, quench, cam and intake all have to be matched up.
There is probably more in your combo with tuning but unless you know more about what's inside its hard to tell how much. If it were mine, I'd enjoy it for a while and in the meantime take some time to plan a higher power build from the ground up. I bet it moves that car well as it is now.
Posted By: Crizila
Re: Dyno'd my 440 and was disappointed - Questions question - 08/10/10 03:19 AM
Obviously your numbers are down, so something is amiss somewhere with your combo. At the same time, welcome to the land of "happy numbers"
Posted By: FuryBoy
Re: Dyno'd my 440 and was disappointed - Questions question - 08/10/10 03:21 AM
imho...
Dyno numbers are BS. 1/4 mile times are the true judge...
Posted By: 64Post
Re: Dyno'd my 440 and was disappointed - Questions question - 08/10/10 03:25 AM
Quote:
Obviously your numbers are down, so something is amiss somewhere with your combo.
I'll bet it's the size of his fuel line... 
Posted By: StealthWedge67
Re: Dyno'd my 440 and was disappointed - Questions question - 08/10/10 03:32 AM
If he's giving you horsepower at the wheels, thats not a horrible number. Probobly represents around 365 - 375 crank horsepower. If its a low compression 440, with stock heads and a few bolt ons, I'd say thats a real world number.
Just because we say that its easy to get 500 hp out of a 440, doesn't mean that every one on the street is making that. Sounds to me like all this motor has on a bone stock 375-horse motor from 1970, is a little cam (that may not match up well with the intake and compression), and a good set of headers. If the last valve job was done by a yeah-hoo, and it was built, compression-wise, to live on 80's pump gas, then I think it all makes sense.
Posted By: mickm
Re: Dyno'd my 440 and was disappointed - Questions question - 08/10/10 05:11 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Obviously your numbers are down, so something is amiss somewhere with your combo.
I'll bet it's the size of his fuel line...
no, his fuel line has to be the right size, cuz it's a 750 and not a 700. his windage tray could be off a bit, or the fan belt could be too tight. air filter is probably clogged, which is good for at least 75 hp. water in the battery could be low, or perhaps the windshield washer fluid. make sure the heater isn't turned on, robbing heat from the engine making it run too cool. roll the windows up for better ET times, and put stickier tires on the front. change the machperson struts, and totally disregard this post.
Posted By: DaytonaTurbo
Re: Dyno'd my 440 and was disappointed - Questions question - 08/10/10 05:41 AM
Quote:
If he's giving you horsepower at the wheels, thats not a horrible number. Probobly represents around 365 - 375 crank horsepower. If its a low compression 440, with stock heads and a few bolt ons, I'd say thats a real world number.
Assuming he gave you rear wheel hp figures, 280hp/358tq and a 20% loss through the drivetrain = about 350hp/450ft-lbs. And that would be NET hp/torq not the GROSS rating the 71 and earlier motors were rated as. Which is probably worth another 20% or so. For a 440 with unknown compression ratio(only real way to know is to pull a head and measure), unknown cam and unknown cylinder head job, I don't think your #'s are terrible. Yes you can get 500hp out of a 440, but it has to be a properly thought out combo, not just random parts thrown together.
Posted By: barracudabob
Re: Dyno'd my 440 and was disappointed - Questions question - 08/10/10 05:47 AM
Quote:
imho...
Dyno numbers are BS. 1/4 mile times are the true judge...
I agree. Take it and get some timeslips, then start looking for more power.
Posted By: NOrrTH
Re: Dyno'd my 440 and was disappointed - Questions question - 08/10/10 06:07 AM
You guys are gods. Honestly I wouldn't have bought this car if I didn't have the ability to reference here FBO and Roadrunner Nest.
ANd it was a Dynojet chassis dyno, so ya RWHP thank god or I would be in serious trouble.
It still moves the car very well, not as well as my old 340 Duster or 440+6 4spd Challenger mind you.
Posted By: 451Mopar
Re: Dyno'd my 440 and was disappointed - Questions question - 08/10/10 06:53 AM
need more info...
Were those numbers the uncorrected HP and torque, or were they SAE corrected numbers? If they were uncorrected numbers what Temperature, Humidity, and Altitude when tested?
What were the RPM at peak HP and peak Torque?
If it has the standard Performer intake, it is not much better than the stock intake?
To get 500 crankshaft HP with stock heads, the heads are usually ported and have larger 2.14"/1.81" valves. With aftermarket heads, 500 HP is pretty easy to get.
Posted By: Kern Dog
Re: Dyno'd my 440 and was disappointed - Questions question - 08/10/10 06:55 AM
Quote:
imho...
Dyno numbers are BS. 1/4 mile times are the true judge...
My 493 in the Charger also had a surprisingly low number on the dyno. Its a 440 with the 4.15 stroke crank. 10.8 pistons, Edelbrock heads and the performer RPM intake. Barry Grant 850 and the MP '509 juice cam. It peaked at 361 HP at 5300 and 510 lbs of TQ at 3100. I expected more too, but this car runs like a raped ape!
Posted By: BigDaddy440
Re: Dyno'd my 440 and was disappointed - Questions question - 08/10/10 08:14 AM
Quote:
imho...
Dyno numbers are BS. 1/4 mile times are the true judge...
People who claim that dynos are BS are either uninformed or sour about their own dyno results.
Several years ago I built a 440 with edelbrock heads, a solid flat tappet cam, nice intake, big carb, nice exhaust etc. It only made 360rwhp, which is about 450 engine horse power. The car still ran great, 11.90s at 114mph in a b body.
On the same day, my friend brings his 440 powered b body which he had just finished building. Although he was a very experience Mopar racer, I thought I had him beat on the dyno with my new Edlelbrock heads. 
Our bottom-ends were nearly identical, but he had a solid-roller cam, home ported 906s and a six pack intake set up. He laid down 426rwhp, which is about 520 engine hp. I couldn't believe how much power he made. And sure enough, when he took it to the track, he had a full 5mph more trap speed than me too.
The point here is, its the total combination that has too work well together to make the impressive numbers. Like dynos or not, the more dyno power you make, the faster your car will / should go.
Btw, I've been around dynos quite a bit, and I've never seen results that are "fishy" or questionable. They always back up a car's track performance.
Most guys go away upset from the dyno because they're there to get a ego boost, and end up getting a reality check. I've been on both sides of the coin.
Posted By: GTX MATT
Re: Dyno'd my 440 and was disappointed - Questions question - 08/10/10 08:43 AM
Ditch the intake and carb, youve got an essentially stock intake and a very hard to tune carb.
Also who knows what cam is in it? Without knowing you're probably just playing guessing games. In my experience when someone doesnt know whats been done to an engine they either know and dont want to say or whoever they got it from told them that because they knew and didn't want to say. It was probably rebuilt with a cheap rebuild kit which usually has low compression pistons.
Posted By: Mr.Yuck
Re: Dyno'd my 440 and was disappointed - Questions question - 08/10/10 01:31 PM
That carb is junk, toss it and get a Double pumper. Check you tune. You should have at least 36* total timing at around 22-2400rpm. As mentioned see what the compression is. If your "rough idle cam" is a MP 509 or 484 and you have low compression that can be problem. Before you do anything take it to the track and get some baseline numbers. who knows maybe the guys dyno is off.
Posted By: lokalik
Re: Dyno'd my 440 and was disappointed - Questions question - 08/10/10 01:44 PM
i agree carb is junk. don't agree on the 1/4 mile thinking. there are to many variables. traction, reaction time etc... i'm not a 1/4 mile king but the dyno takes the human factor out of it. we all know it takes a bit of skill to launch these cars without alot of wheel spin. the 1/4 mile kings all dyno their motors for chassis and clutch set up. we're street guys with probably pretty much stock suspension.
Posted By: terzmo
Re: Dyno'd my 440 and was disappointed - Questions question - 08/10/10 02:14 PM
reaction time is for heads up racing...the clock doesn't start till the car moves,including red lights. You get timed when you start.
440 6 pack cars, when new ran low 14's...new stock 426 hemis couldn't get into the 12's.
Posted By: bobby66
Re: Dyno'd my 440 and was disappointed - Questions question - 08/10/10 04:05 PM
Quote:
reaction time is for heads up racing...the clock doesn't start till the car moves,including red lights. You get timed when you start.
440 6 pack cars, when new ran low 14's...new stock 426 hemis couldn't get into the 12's.
I don't think most Hemis made it in the 13s, stock.
Posted By: TC@HP2
Re: Dyno'd my 440 and was disappointed - Questions question - 08/10/10 04:57 PM
Quote:
need more info...
Were those numbers the uncorrected HP and torque, or were they SAE corrected numbers? If they were uncorrected numbers what Temperature, Humidity, and Altitude when tested?
What were the RPM at peak HP and peak Torque?
Very important questions here for consideration of your combo before you just start changing things out.
Where I am at, physical altitude is 5500 ft. Density altitude can be 10,000 or more on any given day. I have seen many "500" horse big blocks strap on the chassis dyno and crank out a whopping 180-200 RWHP. There is nothing inherently wrong with any of their combos, but high altitude combined with warm, thin air will kill power in no time. The same combo at sea level with dry air is a whole 'nuther story.
Posted By: HitIt
Re: Dyno'd my 440 and was disappointed - Questions question - 08/10/10 05:13 PM
Did this dyno operator do any tuning to the timing or carb to squeeze a few more HP out of it, or did he just do a run and that was that?
A 440 engine that's just a little off on those could easily lose 50hp, and that's aside from tune up stuff like plugs, wires, fuel filter, points, coil etc if any of that stuff needs replaced. Something to consider.
Posted By: Cudajon
Re: Dyno'd my 440 and was disappointed - Questions question - 08/10/10 07:08 PM
How fresh of a build is it? Someone suggested running the compression numbers and a leakdown test. Good idea. On a street engine it takes a while fro the rings to seat. Second don't start changing a bunch of stuff the carb and intake are OK. Beg, borrow or steal a C02 meter and run the test yourself, I'm douptful the F/A mixture was dead on. They use an exhaust sniffer they poke up the exhaust pipe and they're not accurate. Do the basic tune up stuff before you fall for change this and change that. You're not that far off from a typical street 440. By the way a 68 Hemi RR would run high 13's and a Cuda mid 13's in stock form. If you wanted the fastest you bought a Cuda 440 6pack in stock form, it was thge fastest.
Posted By: Paul_Fancsali
Re: Dyno'd my 440 and was disappointed - Questions question - 08/10/10 07:22 PM
BLAH BLAH BLAH stop racing numbers and run it at the track the times will tell you real power. Frankly it sounds as though the engine is running about what it should be ON chassis dyno, with power accessories and drive train loss. When I went from a 904 trans to 727 I lost a average of.15. Keep this in mind. I'm sick of reading about 700 hp cars in mags that end up going 14-15s. Go to Mopar national for a laugh. They don't hook drivers sleep on the line but hey thats what cars are all about fun. The important point is are You happy with the car ? Sorry but listening to the JA at pinks saying youi are not there for fun, but to win !!!!!!!!!!!I guess thats what I get for having fun!
Posted By: JCFcuda
Re: Dyno'd my 440 and was disappointed - Questions question - 08/10/10 08:57 PM
Dynos should be used as a tool take those numbers with a grain of salt. Use the same one if your testing. Ever dyno is different, and will give different numbers.
If you can take that car to a track ( find out what it weights) get the mph. And you can get a pretty good idea of the power.
There is nothing wrong with that 750 Carter/ brocks are a good street carb.
If your drag racing it and you want the most HP than a holly will be a better choice.
Jim
Posted By: MoparforLife
Re: Dyno'd my 440 and was disappointed - Questions question - 08/10/10 09:18 PM
Quote:
imho...
Dyno numbers are BS. 1/4 mile times are the true judge...
Fully agree. If you don't like a number go to another dyno till you find one that tells you what you want to hear.
All a dyno is is a tool to help peak a combo for the day and conditions at the time of the pull.
Posted By: Quicksilver440
Re: Dyno'd my 440 and was disappointed - Questions question - 08/10/10 09:23 PM
Those dyno results are right-on for your combo....Those are Rear wheel numbers, so 280 is not bad. My old hyd cam 440 combo made 420 hp at the wheels and ran 11.60's...and that was with headers, single plane intake, 800 DP holley and aluminum RPM heads and 10.2:1 compression.
Combo is everything....find out what cam you have and compression ratio.
Posted By: shupe
Re: Dyno'd my 440 and was disappointed - Questions question - 08/10/10 09:31 PM
Quote:
Quote:
imho...
Dyno numbers are BS. 1/4 mile times are the true judge...
Fully agree. If you don't like a number go to another dyno till you find one that tells you what you want to hear.
All a dyno is is a tool to help peak a combo for the day and conditions at the time of the pull.
Yet another who agrees.
Before I start changing carbs or doing leakdowns I'd at least drive the car and get a 1/4 mile mph.
If you dyno'd the car because you drove it and it's a pig, that's another matter.
Posted By: feets
Re: Dyno'd my 440 and was disappointed - Questions question - 08/10/10 10:03 PM
Quote:
Quote:
imho...
Dyno numbers are BS. 1/4 mile times are the true judge...
I agree. Take it and get some timeslips, then start looking for more power.
You guys are full of crap.
What should a 3800 lb car with 459 rwhp and 490 rwtq run? That puts it close to 600 hp at the crank.
How about a 12.49?
Add a converter and it'd be a solid 11 car. The dyno won't see the converter.
We recently had a dyno day with our club. A couple mild 440s made similar power to the original post. In fact, a couple small blocks were in the same park with power but were lacking the torque.
The dyno can tell you a lot about your engine. In fact, Stumpy found that he needed to try a different shift point with his truck.
A dyno is a tool. It is not a competition. When used properly, it will help improve your drag strip experience.
When there is no drag strip close or if you're not a drag racer, dynos can come in handy for tuning your car.
Posted By: Pat_Whalen
Re: Dyno'd my 440 and was disappointed - Questions question - 08/10/10 10:14 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
imho...
Dyno numbers are BS. 1/4 mile times are the true judge...
I agree. Take it and get some timeslips, then start looking for more power.
You guys are full of crap.
What should a 3800 lb car with 459 rwhp and 490 rwtq run? That puts it close to 600 hp at the crank.
How about a 12.49?
Add a converter and it'd be a solid 11 car. The dyno won't see the converter.
We recently had a dyno day with our club. A couple mild 440s made similar power to the original post. In fact, a couple small blocks were in the same park with power but were lacking the torque.
The dyno can tell you a lot about your engine. In fact, Stumpy found that he needed to try a different shift point with his truck.
A dyno is a tool. It is not a competition. When used properly, it will help improve your drag strip experience.
When there is no drag strip close or if you're not a drag racer, dynos can come in handy for tuning your car.
Would it be fair to say that without needing a number to make you feel good about your engine and not being a drag racer, a wideband o2 sensor and a competent operator can be just as effect (and cheaper) than a tuning session on a dyno?
Posted By: AndyF
Re: Dyno'd my 440 and was disappointed - Questions question - 08/10/10 10:34 PM
Nothing wrong with those numbers for a basically stock 440. In fact, that is just about exactly the kind of numbers to be expected.
My old 470 motor would make about 475 RWHP and it was a tad too radical for a daily driver. I agree with your dyno operator, if you start making too much power it gets to be a hassle. Parts do start breaking and the maintenance does go way up.
One option is to go with a stroker motor but to keep the cam, intake and carb on the conservative side. That combination gives you lots of torque at a lower rpm which gives you good pulling power. By not having to turn the engine really high you avoid a lot of maintenance and part breakage. Of course, it costs a bunch of money to add displacement.
It all boils down to choices and money.
Posted By: NOrrTH
Re: Dyno'd my 440 and was disappointed - Questions question - 08/10/10 11:46 PM
Again, thanks for all the excellent advice and comments. Some people say that the numbers are about where there should be given the limited info I have and that gives me the comfort I was looking for.
Soooo.... it turns out I had a dead plug. Wouldn't that of shown up on the dyno's computer? Not sure how much a difference that would've made, but ya, there's some lost hp
To answer some of the questions:
The dyno numbers are uncorrected
83 deg F
33% humidity
elevation 103 ft
max hp at 4500 rpm
max torque 3750
No the dyno guy didn't tune it, just fluids
Air fuel line is almost flat after 3k rpm at 13.5
My cousin said "throw on some 906 heads, put 3.91's in it and that will wake that 440 up."
The car goes pretty good, I'm not complaining but..another 75 or so hp would be nice
Posted By: FuryBoy
Re: Dyno'd my 440 and was disappointed - Questions question - 08/11/10 12:13 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
imho...
Dyno numbers are BS. 1/4 mile times are the true judge...
Fully agree. If you don't like a number go to another dyno till you find one that tells you what you want to hear.
All a dyno is is a tool to help peak a combo for the day and conditions at the time of the pull.
Yet another who agrees.
Before I start changing carbs or doing leakdowns I'd at least drive the car and get a 1/4 mile mph.
If you dyno'd the car because you drove it and it's a pig, that's another matter.
This was my intention with my original statement.
Yes, a dyno can be a valuable tool for tuning and finding the best way to use your engines powerband. But to try and compare different dyno numbers, in different parts of the country is a little ridiculous.
And E/T is not what tells the story on horsepower, MPH is. You know that Feets...
And I have never been sour at a dyno when we've used one. My car itself has never been dynoed, but my dad laid down 375 RWHP in Reno about 5 years ago with a solid cammed, home ported 906 440. Absolutely smoked some blown small block chevys there that were only putting down 275 hp at the rear wheels. Not sure what happened to those cars...
Posted By: Alikazam
Re: Dyno'd my 440 and was disappointed - Questions question - 08/11/10 01:00 AM
Quote:
Again, thanks for all the excellent advice and comments. Some people say that the numbers are about where there should be given the limited info I have and that gives me the comfort I was looking for.
Soooo.... it turns out I had a dead plug. Wouldn't that of shown up on the dyno's computer? Not sure how much a difference that would've made, but ya, there's some lost hp
To answer some of the questions:
The dyno numbers are uncorrected
83 deg F
33% humidity
elevation 103 ft
max hp at 4500 rpm
max torque 3750
No the dyno guy didn't tune it, just fluids
Air fuel line is almost flat after 3k rpm at 13.5
My cousin said "throw on some 906 heads, put 3.91's in it and that will wake that 440 up."
The car goes pretty good, I'm not complaining but..another 75 or so hp would be nice
I would definitely "re-dyno" after fixing the dead plug. There is no guarantee the operator would catch a choppy idle with a miss, it could be chalked up to a radical sounding cam and as you went higher in the revs, yo might notice a miss, but usually on a chassis dyno it gets pretty loud so it could have been missed. That being said, I am a fan of both Chassis Dyno results and 1/4 mile results. Mine tend to agree, but I have been to a chassis dyno where the operators were new at it and had their setup "way off" but swore up and down that my engine was making 40 less rwhp from the week before after only swapping out spark plugs... when later it was found out that they had the dyno in AWD mode not 2wd mode... *shrug* Take it all with a grain of salt I say but I would drag race it (and MPH is the best indicator given a "decent" launch) and dyno it and just enjoy the hobby! The last dyno operator was very impressed with my very street friendly 340 rwhp/349 rwtq 360. He said a lot of big block cars in his shop make less than that, haha. Course, then I added the Nitrous.... *grin* Anyway, have fun, that's what its all about! You can always add a little squeeze to the fo-fo-ty if you need more out of it from time to time!
Posted By: Mr.Yuck
Re: Dyno'd my 440 and was disappointed - Questions question - 08/11/10 02:27 AM
Quote:
Again, thanks for all the excellent advice and comments. Some people say that the numbers are about where there should be given the limited info I have and that gives me the comfort I was looking for.
Soooo.... it turns out I had a dead plug. Wouldn't that of shown up on the dyno's computer? Not sure how much a difference that would've made, but ya, there's some lost hp
To answer some of the questions:
The dyno numbers are uncorrected
83 deg F
33% humidity
elevation 103 ft
max hp at 4500 rpm
max torque 3750
No the dyno guy didn't tune it, just fluids
Air fuel line is almost flat after 3k rpm at 13.5
My cousin said "throw on some 906 heads, put 3.91's in it and that will wake that 440 up."
The car goes pretty good, I'm not complaining but..another 75 or so hp would be nice
one candle out will hurt a ton. I think I ran a 12.58 on a usual 12.teen when I burned a plug wire. 906's are ok but it depends on the port work. fix the bad cylinder and roll. 3.91's are great for a b-body auto.
Posted By: BSB67
Re: Dyno'd my 440 and was disappointed - Questions question - 08/11/10 02:50 AM
Quote:
If you can take that car to a track ( find out what it weights) get the mph. And you can get a pretty good idea of the power.
Quote:
And E/T is not what tells the story on horsepower, MPH is.
As important as this is, many don't understand this.
279 uncorrected hp with a dead or half dead cylinder - that is not bad. Tune it, get it to the track and have some fun, and then tune some more. If you want to get serious about tuning based on mph, get a weather station.
Posted By: mark7171
Re: Dyno'd my 440 and was disappointed - Questions question - 08/11/10 03:49 AM
You can buy a package that is known to make such and such amount. My choice was a Stage one HugesEngines Stage 1 440 Block, Heads, Cam, ported intake. The level 1, made the flywheel numbers in the range that I was going to drive. A package system be it Edelbrock Performwer /RPM/ Torquer II, or Holley systemax, and Mopar performance crate engines.
The intake should be 40-60 % greater runner /plenum volume than the heads. The performer edelbrock or Wieand 8009 would work well with the stock ported heads. The runner volumes would match and package up.
My daily driver was a wild card build, had a 323" w/ 318LA 1.88"/1.60 valve heads shaved to 8.5:1 compression. A 340 hp cam .430/.444" lift , single plane streetmaster 318 intake kept port size continuity, Holley 600 topped it off, Summit headers, and a 4 speed 833 with 3.23 gears. Made 237 RWhp and ran the quarter mile with a 4.10 gear centersection in 14.80's. Type 3800lb race wt 4 door valiant.
The hughes Feels like it makes what the chart tells.
Posted By: SomeCarGuy
Re: Dyno'd my 440 and was disappointed - Questions question - 08/11/10 04:09 AM
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imho...
Dyno numbers are BS. 1/4 mile times are the true judge...
I agree. Take it and get some timeslips, then start looking for more power.
You guys are full of crap.
What should a 3800 lb car with 459 rwhp and 490 rwtq run? That puts it close to 600 hp at the crank.
How about a 12.49?
Add a converter and it'd be a solid 11 car. The dyno won't see the converter.
We recently had a dyno day with our club. A couple mild 440s made similar power to the original post. In fact, a couple small blocks were in the same park with power but were lacking the torque.
The dyno can tell you a lot about your engine. In fact, Stumpy found that he needed to try a different shift point with his truck.
A dyno is a tool. It is not a competition. When used properly, it will help improve your drag strip experience.
When there is no drag strip close or if you're not a drag racer, dynos can come in handy for tuning your car.
ET isn't what to look for. MPH tells you what it is making. Using the weight of the car and that MPH number will give you a decent "chassis dyno" number right there.
Posted By: Jerseyboy
Re: Dyno'd my 440 and was disappointed - Questions question - 08/11/10 01:42 PM
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Again, thanks for all the excellent advice and comments. Some people say that the numbers are about where there should be given the limited info I have and that gives me the comfort I was looking for.
Soooo.... it turns out I had a dead plug. Wouldn't that of shown up on the dyno's computer? Not sure how much a difference that would've made, but ya, there's some lost hp
To answer some of the questions:
The dyno numbers are uncorrected
83 deg F
33% humidity
elevation 103 ft
max hp at 4500 rpm
max torque 3750
No the dyno guy didn't tune it, just fluids
Air fuel line is almost flat after 3k rpm at 13.5
My cousin said "throw on some 906 heads, put 3.91's in it and that will wake that 440 up."
The car goes pretty good, I'm not complaining but..another 75 or so hp would be nice
13.5 is a little leaner then I like to see. I"d consider fattening it up a little and see if she likes it. You might pick up a little hp with a richer AFR. All depends on what your combo wants though..
J
Posted By: feets
Re: Dyno'd my 440 and was disappointed - Questions question - 08/11/10 01:52 PM
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ET isn't what to look for. MPH tells you what it is making. Using the weight of the car and that MPH number will give you a decent "chassis dyno" number right there.
The mph falls off considerably when the car wallows around for the first 300 feet.
I think it's a good idea to dyno an unknown car before taking it to the track. You can get an idea of how the car is running before blasting down the strip.
Dyno can take an hour or so. It takes me longer than that just to get to the track. The dyno is cheaper in most cases.
I like getting an accurate air/fuel ratio too.
In the OP's case, the 13.5:1 ratio is a little lean for WOT. It will make slightly more power at that level but it's MUCH safer to get the mix down to 12.5:1.
Posted By: 451Mopar
Re: Dyno'd my 440 and was disappointed - Questions question - 08/11/10 06:41 PM
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To answer some of the questions:
The dyno numbers are uncorrected
83 deg F
33% humidity
elevation 103 ft
max hp at 4500 rpm
max torque 3750
No the dyno guy didn't tune it, just fluids
Air fuel line is almost flat after 3k rpm at 13.5
From the power peak RPMs, it looks like the cam is fairly small, or may even be a stock cam?
A larger cam should help reduce the fuel octane requirement and add some power. With aftermarket Aluminum heads and the larger cam (plus intake and carb), you can get that extra 75 hp pretty easely, and it will tolerate lower octane fuel.
Posted By: NOrrTH
Re: Dyno'd my 440 and was disappointed - Questions question - 08/11/10 07:49 PM
Unfortunately, if I want to keep my air grabber, I'm stuck with the Edlebrock Performer 440. Its an inch higher at the back than stock and I had to put a thinner air filter on to get the air cleaner lid to clear the air grabber box.
From what I've read so far on this board, it would seem that these aluminum heads are the way to go. Is that something you can buy and bolt on without knowing what pistons/compression you have? Not that I would dream of doing the work myself but if I see a good deal, maybe I can jump on them. Or maybe my intake is "not much better than stock" then they wouldn't flow so there'd be no point.
Posted By: Mr.Yuck
Re: Dyno'd my 440 and was disappointed - Questions question - 08/11/10 09:34 PM
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Unfortunately, if I want to keep my air grabber, I'm stuck with the Edlebrock Performer 440. Its an inch higher at the back than stock and I had to put a thinner air filter on to get the air cleaner lid to clear the air grabber box.
From what I've read so far on this board, it would seem that these aluminum heads are the way to go. Is that something you can buy and bolt on without knowing what pistons/compression you have? Not that I would dream of doing the work myself but if I see a good deal, maybe I can jump on them. Or maybe my intake is "not much better than stock" then they wouldn't flow so there'd be no point.
no need for aluminum heads. and a CH4B is a better intake and it will fit under the air grabber. if your power stops at 4500, that's the problem. heads won't help. Many guys run 500hp+ on old iron heads. Either you have a timing/tuning issue or it's factory cam. Although a factory cam should not have a rough idle. You need to get some compression numbers 1st. Then have a knowledgable MOPAR guy help you tune it. Then decide on what parts you want to change out. A cam swap can do wonders. Also go drive it. nail it from a dead stomp and go thru the gears a few times. Even a stock 440 w/ 3.23 gears should boil the hides mid way thru 2nd.
Posted By: feets
Re: Dyno'd my 440 and was disappointed - Questions question - 08/12/10 04:08 PM
The Performer 440 is an aluminum copy of the factory intake. It's not considered an improvement. I ran one of those thihgs years ago.
Posted By: mark7171
Re: Dyno'd my 440 and was disappointed - Questions question - 08/13/10 02:07 AM
Feets , The plenum volumes and runner arrangments are different for the intakes. After building up a 440 intake collection, The 440 performer is much better than a CH4. A Weiand 8009 is a inch lower than the 440 performer and has similar characteristics(less mid range) to save hood height. That is from somebody who owns both, Heck, all of the single carb 440 intakes.
A dead spark plug should be very noticeable pulling on the rollers. The condition of tune should have told you not to wind it out at any rate.
Posted By: 451Mopar
Re: Dyno'd my 440 and was disappointed - Questions question - 08/13/10 07:57 AM
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if your power stops at 4500, that's the problem. heads won't help. Many guys run 500hp+ on old iron heads.
I agree the cam is either fairly small, or way too advanced. Good heads will help, and old iron heads can make good HP, but not in stock form. I mentioned the aluminum heads because the Edelbrock Performer or 440 Stealth heads are an easy and affordable bolt on. Price out the cost of rebuilding stock iron heads with labor, the larger valves, hardened seats, new valve guides, and porting and you will have as much money invested in them as if you just bought the new heads, and the aluminum heads have closed chambers and are less prone to detonation.
If you consider a stock unported heads usually only flows about 235 cfm @ 0.500" lift, and on out of the box stealth head flows 270+ cfm, that extra 35 cfm can be worth 70+ HP as long as the rest of the intake/carb/cam/exhaust don't choke the engine.
Posted By: Mr.Yuck
Re: Dyno'd my 440 and was disappointed - Questions question - 08/13/10 01:18 PM
"The 440 performer is much better than a CH4"
no it's not. I think you are thinking of a Performer RPM, that is a totally different intake. CC or MM did an intake shoot out and the CH4B did very well even stacked against the new designed intakes.
Posted By: The Cuda Guy
Re: Dyno'd my 440 and was disappointed - Questions question - 08/13/10 01:41 PM
Wont the Holly Street Dominator fit under that hood and set up?
Don
Posted By: RUNCHARGER
Re: Dyno'd my 440 and was disappointed - Questions question - 08/13/10 05:33 PM
The dead plug throws all discussion into never-never land. It sounds like it isn't all that bad. If the car were mine I would try a better carb and optimize the carb and advance curve before throwing thousand of dollars in new parts at it. I also agree that the 1/4 mile trap speed takes the B.S. out of fake dyno numbers.
Sheldon
Posted By: Crizila
Re: Dyno'd my 440 and was disappointed - Questions question - 08/13/10 07:49 PM
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Obviously your numbers are down, so something is amiss somewhere with your combo.
I'll bet it's the size of his fuel line...
I was gonna say that, but thought I'd just wait for you to chime in. 
Posted By: mark7171
Re: Dyno'd my 440 and was disappointed - Questions question - 08/14/10 02:50 AM
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"The 440 performer is much better than a CH4"
no it's not. I think you are thinking of a Performer RPM, that is a totally different intake. CC or MM did an intake shoot out and the CH4B did very well even stacked against the new designed intakes.
Looking here at the picture side by side. You should be able to tell the performer 440 has more pad and plenum height. Once divided the Performers runners are longer, wider, taller, faster , stronger...
Timing, dead spark plug, and you ran it out on the dyno?
packages take out the guess work. Use them.
The CH4 intake is a great intake with a AVS carb, mild cam 440 2.76-3.23 gears.
Posted By: 64Post
Re: Dyno'd my 440 and was disappointed - Questions question - 08/14/10 02:50 AM
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Obviously your numbers are down, so something is amiss somewhere with your combo.
I'll bet it's the size of his fuel line...
I was gonna say that, but thought I'd just wait for you to chime in.
Good to see you still hanging around, John...
Posted By: Crizila
Re: Dyno'd my 440 and was disappointed - Questions question - 08/14/10 05:28 AM
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Obviously your numbers are down, so something is amiss somewhere with your combo.
I'll bet it's the size of his fuel line...
I was gonna say that, but thought I'd just wait for you to chime in.
Good to see you still hanging around, John...
Thanks Dave. I'm living in another state ( other than my usual state of confusion ) these days, and haven't been to the track in 10 months, but looking to remedy that soon.
Posted By: NOrrTH
Re: Dyno'd my 440 and was disappointed - Questions question - 08/15/10 06:19 AM
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"The 440 performer is much better than a CH4"
Timing, dead spark plug, and you ran it out on the dyno?
packages take out the guess work. Use them.
The CH4 intake is a great intake with a AVS carb, mild cam 440 2.76-3.23 gears.
With the Performer I have to run a 2" air filter(opposed to a 2.5") to clear the Air Grabber box. People told me there wasn't a lower intake so its good news for me about the CH4B and Weiand 8009. Maybe that extra breathing room with the proper filter will make up for any possible lost power with the lower rise intakes.
The car's running 3.55's, and I might bump it up to 3.73.
And...I didn't know the plug was dead on the dyno run. Another mechanic afterward said he noticed it had an intermittant miss and showed me the plug which the ceramic could spin in the casing. Like someone else said, maybe they couldn't hear it do to the rough idle.
Posted By: RapidRobert
Re: Dyno'd my 440 and was disappointed - Questions question - 08/15/10 08:03 AM
Supposedly the old MP formulas for figuring horsepower by (1) trap speed (MPH) (2) weight and (3) maybe a third one: were simple but were proven to be very accurate. As said I'd fix the dead hole and yes street dominator intakes are very low profile
Posted By: Mr.Yuck
Re: Dyno'd my 440 and was disappointed - Questions question - 08/15/10 04:25 PM
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Supposedly the old MP formulas for figuring horsepower by (1) trap speed (MPH) (2) weight and (3) maybe a third one: were simple but were proven to be very accurate. As said I'd fix the dead hole and yes street dominator intakes are very low profile
yes fix the dead cylinder. My fuzzy math is this. You made 279hp on 7, so that's about 39.8571 each hole... so we will round up to 40 each. So add 40 to your 279 and you get 339 at the tires so that's probably close to 425 at the block. does that sound better to you?
Posted By: Crunchy_Frog
Re: Dyno'd my 440 and was disappointed - Questions question - 08/15/10 04:46 PM
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yes fix the dead cylinder. My fuzzy math is this. You made 279hp on 7, so that's about 39.8571 each hole... so we will round up to 40 each. So add 40 to your 279 and you get 339 at the tires so that's probably close to 425 at the block. does that sound better to you?
40 + 279 is 339?? Must work for the gub'mnt... Some kind of voodoo economics? 
Posted By: NOrrTH
Re: Dyno'd my 440 and was disappointed - Questions question - 08/15/10 09:55 PM
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yes fix the dead cylinder. My fuzzy math is this. You made 279hp on 7, so that's about 39.8571 each hole... so we will round up to 40 each. So add 40 to your 279 and you get 339 at the tires so that's probably close to 425 at the block. does that sound better to you?
I didn't know it worked like that. If its kickin out anything above 370 (stock hp), I'm over the moon.
Here's a guy with basically my set up and ported 906's pulling only 20 more whp. I'm going to give my car a hug.
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php?topic=14847.0
There's no way I can get a Street Dominator under the hood. The Performer is too tall at 4.8" and the Street Dominator is 5.25", plus I'd prefer to make more torque than top end. Thanks for the suggestion though.
Do you guys think I'm suffocating the engine at all by running a .5" lower air filter?
I'm sure you've all seen the Airgrabber air cleaner lids where they hang down over the air filters. On mine there's only 3/4" of white filter showing, although the air can get up in behind the lid. Still it would seem to me a lot more breathing area than those little holes silenced/snorkle air cleaners have to breath through. If you do, I'll start shopping for a Weiand Action Plus or CH4B.
Cheers 
Posted By: mark7171
Re: Dyno'd my 440 and was disappointed - Questions question - 08/15/10 10:21 PM
The 8008/8009 is the next step. The 440 Weiand Action + sacrifices nothing, and might gain some mid range.
Unless, you try to "carb pad mill" the performer . Easy to shave off .25" of raised material from body.
The Action plus can be pad milled to less height than OEM.
Posted By: Pale_Roader
Re: Dyno'd my 440 and was disappointed - Questions question - 08/16/10 11:57 AM
Surprised that no one here mentioned this, or maybe they did and i missed it... but keep in mind your 280HP (which we've now guesstimated to be over 300HP with all 8 firing) cannot be compared to the 500HP number you see posted so often here. RWHP vs crank HP. That 500HP 440 build will not be anywhere near that on the same chassis dyno you just used. A 500RWHP Mopar would be one mean-ass big block.
I would have suggested possibly modifying a Street Dominator intake (trimming the pad) and possibly even modifying the air cleaner if possible, but i doubt that would work for one reason, in MY experience, that intake barely even works without a spacer on top. Mine is 1" and i'm willing to bet it wants more. Maybe my combo is goofy, but that spacer is mandatory. So obviously that wouldn't work at all for you.
Someone here said that the Performer (or similar) intake is no improvement, i disagree. The weight is the improvement. Mopars are too heavy, a bunch off the front end is always a good thing.
Also, whoever told you to get 906's shouldn't be telling anyone what to do. Its pretty much the same head you have, just more expensive to buy used. If you're going to rebuild the engine (read: buy new MODERN pistons) then maybe get some ported 915's or aftermarket aluminum, if not, either port yours or leave it alone.
I personally like the Holley DP design more than the Edelbrock/Carter carb, but i've used both and the latter is fine. That engine probably wants a bigger carb though. Mine wanted more than an open, stub-stacked 750 Holley, and it was considerably less modified than yours. Mine also liked 94 octane. It was a low-compression 440 too, go figure. These engines are not efficient in design...
I'm with Sheldon though, sounds like with a really good tune, recurved distributor and just some good attention to detail in the powertrain from front to back this thing will keep you happy. Though i'd recommend a mandrel bent, aftermarket 3" exhaust system... that'll put a big stupid grin on your face that wont leave for a week...
Heh... and for all the posters suggesting you take it to the track, you might wanna remind them that in this idiot province (i live here too), Nanaimo might as well be 500 miles from Mission Raceways, with those insane ferry prices. It might be a bit cheaper to the Sunshine Coast, but then thats only an 1/8th mile track...
Posted By: Mr.Yuck
Re: Dyno'd my 440 and was disappointed - Questions question - 08/16/10 12:15 PM
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yes fix the dead cylinder. My fuzzy math is this. You made 279hp on 7, so that's about 39.8571 each hole... so we will round up to 40 each. So add 40 to your 279 and you get 339 at the tires so that's probably close to 425 at the block. does that sound better to you?
40 + 279 is 339?? Must work for the gub'mnt... Some kind of voodoo economics?
WHOOPS MUST NOT OF HAD ENOUGH COFFEE...HAHA Ok 319 still close to 400 at the crank. TFF I DO work for uncle Sam...nothing to do with numbers through.