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cam swap for 440, which one?

Posted By: killercoronet

cam swap for 440, which one? - 08/08/10 09:47 PM

So i got my 440 dynoed, its a fairley stock build, 915's port and polished, stock bore, holley intake, headers, dui ignition, 750 holley, 3:55's sure grip, 2500 stall. Engine put out 387hp 420ft lbs torque. The cam is my question. I used a Comp 280H Magnum. I'm wondering if ii should have went with a Extreme energy with a little more lift. I really wanted to break 400hp at least. Any suggestions?
Posted By: MowP4rsn

Re: cam swap for 440, which one? - 08/08/10 09:50 PM

It looks to me like your engine already makes 400hp or more if you factor in parasitic drag of the rest of the powertrain
Posted By: killercoronet

Re: cam swap for 440, which one? - 08/08/10 09:51 PM

no that was at the crank, i don't know why i listed my gears and stuff. Sorry
Posted By: MowP4rsn

Re: cam swap for 440, which one? - 08/08/10 09:52 PM

Ah! I made an assumption, my bad
Posted By: 69rrgrabber

Re: cam swap for 440, which one? - 08/08/10 10:23 PM

Since the factory HP 440 was 375 horses, it seems like the bigger cam, ported heads, headers and intake would be worth more than jut 12 hp extra.

What compression are you running?
Posted By: JohnRR

Re: cam swap for 440, which one? - 08/09/10 12:05 AM

Quote:

Since the factory HP 440 was 375 horses, it seems like the bigger cam, ported heads, headers and intake would be worth more than jut 12 hp extra.

What compression are you running?




Good question , what pistons are you using , what head gasket , how far in the hole is the piston ?
Posted By: Mr.Yuck

Re: cam swap for 440, which one? - 08/09/10 01:27 AM

I would have thought it would have made 400 easy with those parts. Only thing I can think of is... 1. tune is way off, or 2. loooow compression.
Posted By: derekeh

Re: cam swap for 440, which one? - 08/09/10 01:36 AM

Ick the new mustangs 5.0 puts out more power than that.
Posted By: BSB67

Re: cam swap for 440, which one? - 08/09/10 01:55 AM

Quote:

So i got my 440 dynoed, its a fairley stock build, 915's port and polished, stock bore, holley intake, headers, dui ignition, 750 holley, 3:55's sure grip, 2500 stall. Engine put out 387hp 420ft lbs torque. The cam is my question. I used a Comp 280H Magnum. I'm wondering if ii should have went with a Extreme energy with a little more lift. I really wanted to break 400hp at least. Any suggestions?




I'm always curious on the desire to achieve a hp number on a dyno. If the dyno operator twisted a knob on the dyno and it spit out a 401 peak hp, would you be happy? Would you rather have a 13.20 et time slip and a 401 hp dyno sheet over a 12.50 et time slip and a 387 dyno sheet? Dynos and flow benches are tools. They don't tell you if your car is fast, or faster than anyone else, or fast enough.

Sure, you can put a faster rate lobe camshaft in your engine and pick up some average power, maybe peak too. But instead, consider going to the track and tuning, adjusting and making changes that make the car faster. If you do this, you'll probably end up with the fastest, 387 hp car at the track (within reasonable weight limits), and will likely be faster than some guys that have a 400 hp dyno sheet. I see this happen frequently. Finally, if you do this, then you can change your cam with a meaningful goal like wanting to put .2 and 2 mph in the car.
Posted By: zzyzxpat

Re: cam swap for 440, which one? - 08/09/10 02:09 AM

Posted By: derekeh

Re: cam swap for 440, which one? - 08/09/10 02:19 AM

Still.. the numbers are disappointing. For a mild built 440 to not even make 400 horses is sad.
Posted By: BSB67

Re: cam swap for 440, which one? - 08/09/10 02:40 AM

Quote:

Still.. the numbers are disappointing. For a mild built 440 to not even make 400 horses is sad.




We know nothing about the build, so I know that I cannot judge. If the compression is low, and has a 280 cam, I'm surprised that it made 387 hp. The last time I had a set of iron heads rebuilt correctly, ported for a low lift cam and put on a bench it was $1,500. That was 15 years ago. My guess is the OP's heads might not be that good, as most will simply buy Stealths or RPMs and be ahead of the game. And I'm always a little skeptical on a rebuild on a standard bore. 387 hp might be where it should be.
Posted By: killercoronet

Re: cam swap for 440, which one? - 08/09/10 03:25 AM

I know my compression is low, its a 78 block w/ flattop pistons, all factory. I kick myself for not zero decking the block , or changing rods and pistons, but this is my first engine build and i'm on a tight budget so s did what i could. I didn't skim on parts, i just didn't realize the importance of quench.
Posted By: BSB67

Re: cam swap for 440, which one? - 08/09/10 03:37 AM

Quote:

I know my compression is low, its a 78 block w/ flattop pistons, all factory. I kick myself for not zero decking the block , or changing rods and pistons, but this is my first engine build and i'm on a tight budget so s did what i could. I didn't skim on parts, i just didn't realize the importance of quench.




That is okay. Go have fun with the car instead of throwing more money at it.

Out of curiosity, what exactly was done to the heads and how much did it cost?
Posted By: killercoronet

Re: cam swap for 440, which one? - 08/09/10 03:43 AM

when i bought the new yorker that had the motor in it, someone had put them on the motor before. I had them checked milled, did a valve job, hardened seats, and comp springs, I did the porting myself. All in all i got about $500 in them. My buddy owns a machine shop, he does great work, so i trust the heads. Im thinking its my deck height that's killing me.
Posted By: dvw

Re: cam swap for 440, which one? - 08/09/10 03:54 AM

Quote:

when i bought the new yorker that had the motor in it, someone had put them on the motor before. I had them checked milled, did a valve job, hardened seats, and comp springs, I did the porting myself. All in all i got about $500 in them. My buddy owns a machine shop, he does great work, so i trust the heads. Im thinking its my deck height that's killing me.




Lack of quench is not what's killing it. What is the actual comp ratio? How great can the ring seal be at standard bore? 906 heads are the easiest to botch while porting. Grinding in the wrong spot kills flow. This is your 1st build learn from it and go forward. I agree go test and see how it runs. This same package with top notch ring seal,valve work, and decent compression ratio would show different results.
Doug
Posted By: killercoronet

Re: cam swap for 440, which one? - 08/09/10 03:57 AM

Im running 915's and i had a professional check as i went, so the heads are solid.
Posted By: DaytonaTurbo

Re: cam swap for 440, which one? - 08/09/10 05:03 AM

If you're running a 1978 440 with stock pistons, your compression is low. VERY low. Like a calculated 7.8:1 low. I know, I've been there. It's not the deck height of your block that's the problem, it's the compression height of those stock pistons is soooooo low. An aftermarket piston will be taller, thereby increasing your compression ratio. With the super short mid 70's 440 pistons, no amount of milling the block or heads will get you where you want to be. You'd spend a lot of $$ doing that and then the intake and pushrods wouldn't fit right after. My advice is put your money into a high-stall torq converter. Trust me on this one, you do not want to run a stock converter with a low compression 440 with a cam, bottom end power will be so-so and you'll have a larger drop from idle in neutral to going into gear.
Posted By: 383man

383man - 08/09/10 08:16 AM

Quote:

Quote:

So i got my 440 dynoed, its a fairley stock build, 915's port and polished, stock bore, holley intake, headers, dui ignition, 750 holley, 3:55's sure grip, 2500 stall. Engine put out 387hp 420ft lbs torque. The cam is my question. I used a Comp 280H Magnum. I'm wondering if ii should have went with a Extreme energy with a little more lift. I really wanted to break 400hp at least. Any suggestions?




I'm always curious on the desire to achieve a hp number on a dyno. If the dyno operator twisted a knob on the dyno and it spit out a 401 peak hp, would you be happy? Would you rather have a 13.20 et time slip and a 401 hp dyno sheet over a 12.50 et time slip and a 387 dyno sheet? Dynos and flow benches are tools. They don't tell you if your car is fast, or faster than anyone else, or fast enough.

Sure, you can put a faster rate lobe camshaft in your engine and pick up some average power, maybe peak too. But instead, consider going to the track and tuning, adjusting and making changes that make the car faster. If you do this, you'll probably end up with the fastest, 387 hp car at the track (within reasonable weight limits), and will likely be faster than some guys that have a 400 hp dyno sheet. I see this happen frequently. Finally, if you do this, then you can change your cam with a meaningful goal like wanting to put .2 and 2 mph in the car.





I do agree with that. Just today I was asked why I have never put my car on a dyno ? I know what my car runs and I dont care if it does it with 500 flywheel hp or 450 hp. Plus I grew up in the 60's and 70's when there was no dyno's around that the local racers had use to. We just did the old race track dyno..........if you make a change and it goes faster leave it on. I would do as suggested and put it together and drive it so you can see how it runs in the car. Good luck , Ron
Posted By: MoparJ

Re: 383man - 08/09/10 07:13 PM

Considering that it is a 78' block, it very well could still have the low compression pistons. Compression could be down in the range of 7.8:1 or a tad higher. If so, 387 hp is actually a fairly decent number. With the right gearing and torque converter, you should stil easily be able to achieve 13 second quarter mile times, maybe quicker depending on the car. Id use a stall somewhere in the range of 2500-3000 and a gear of now higher (low numerical) of 3.23. Id be very happy with this motor in a street cruiser, with some trips to the track.

There may be a few horses left in the motor with a slightly different cam, like a XE268 or XE274. More importantly, you may be able to get the low end torque number up with a slightly, without affecting horsepower much.

I say run it. You still have a healthy motor and will light the tires up with ease, especially with the right TC and gear.
Posted By: MoparJ

Re: cam swap for 440, which one? - 08/09/10 07:25 PM

Quote:

Ick the new mustangs 5.0 puts out more power than that.




Yeah, but with a ton more compression and high tech computer systems, variable valve timing, ect. Cost is also in a different league.
Posted By: toyotajeep

Re: cam swap for 440, which one? - 08/09/10 07:33 PM

FWIW- I just built a 76-77 440 and the pistons were down about .180.

The 75 440 that I am into right now has them down about .145 or so.

Lots of compression down the drain

We'll see how mine runs this week hopefully.

ROB
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