Green Bearings for AutoX or road racing

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the "known fact" issue is exactly what started this thread. Everyone says it but no one has offered any real evidence other than saying that it is a "known fact".

All the major motorcycle manufacturers switched from using ball bearings in the steering head (the part of the the frame where the front suspension is mounted) to tapered roller bearings because the ball bearings would consistently develop a "notch" in the normal range of steering motion, typically right in the center where most loads occured.

Ball bearings are bicycle-grade technology. There's no way I'd run 'em in any axle application where they'd be expected to deal w/ significant side loads.

completely different application-- a steering head on a motorcycle only sees a range of motion of +/- 30 degrees max, and at high load, usually much less than that. it also sees a constant side load on the bearing (gravity).

yes, the tapered roller is a superior design, as it handles high thrust loads. but look at ford 9" and GM 12/14 bolt rears. they all use a flat roller bearing, IIRC, which doesn't carry thrust loads any better than a ball bearing....

I have been using green bearings in a hot street app for 9 years now, driving probably not _quite_ as extreme as scratchin's, but not far removed. my wilwood rear discs require them. my first set lasted only about 2k miles, but that was because I was told I didn't need to remove the thrust block/buttons in my diff. well, you don't if the axle is in the same position, but the way the wilwood kit was set up, it moved the axles inboard the thickness of the brake backing plate, which side loaded the bearings on the thrust block. when I replaced them, I put a spacer behind the brakes to move the axles out the 1/8" thickness of the old backing plate. almost 30k miles later, no issues.

Posted By: scratchnfotraction

Re: Green Bearings for AutoX or road racing - 06/29/10 10:38 PM

run them in my truck also

done plenty of hauling,work,muddin,offroad

setting up my 440 truck with an A-body 8 3/4 with them also

I am not skeerd of them

when my one bearing went out,I think it was from a empty car dolly that had a wig wag to it (no thrust block)

70 mph for 250 miles,hauled a truck back smooth as glass,few days later it was toast and growling leaking oil thru the bearing itself...never broke or anything just leaked oil and had slop up and down in the bearing

2nd sets been fine so far and just as much

on them

boy was that anoying,wig waging for 250 miles

Posted By: 70chall440

Re: Green Bearings for AutoX or road racing - 06/29/10 11:14 PM

Appreciate the information. I installed them on my Challenge because they were easy to install and a better option at the time than tapered bearings. As I am planning this next car I wanted to know what my options are and plan a direction.

Posted By: GregCon

Re: Green Bearings for AutoX or road racing - 06/29/10 11:14 PM

It sounds like you're just wanting to hear what you want to hear.

I gave you three cases I know of where they failed. I can't think of a single case where a tapered roller has failed. I've seen some wear out over 200K miles but that's not really a failure.

We're all hot rodders of some sort. We all like to do things that improve our vehicles. so why go to a bearing that, in addition to being very Chevy-like, is inferior in design?

It would make my car easier to get parts for, and easier to work on, if I installed a small block Chevy instead of a Hemi. But that's hardly an excuse to put poop in my car.

The biggest complaint I have with Green bearings is the aftermarket has flocked to them (because they are stupid Chevy guys) and it has made it harder and harder to get parts and pieces for the proper tapered rollers. As I mentioned, it is getting hard to find an axle company that can grind an axle for normal bearings. It's kinda like turning in the radio - we used to hear Hendrix and now we get Michael Jackson.

Posted By: SomeCarGuy

Re: Green Bearings for AutoX or road racing - 06/29/10 11:39 PM

I've run taper bearing in everything for years and years and years and years...

Never had one fail.

Pushed cars hard in corners, all that.

Is that enough personal experience for you or am I another one that just doesn't know anything because it doesn't support what you want to hear and/or believe?

Posted By: scratchnfotraction

Re: Green Bearings for AutoX or road racing - 06/29/10 11:43 PM

that would be 4x if you count my failure

I have had a stock tapperd bearing go out also

due to incorrect endplay adjustment and greese getting washed out from a seal leak

oh I run my greens this go round with out axle seals in the housing also

o-ring seals it fine

the adjuster/lock tab is no longer made and very hard to get/find nowdays another reason I went greens

been sliding this A-body axle around in my truck for yrs with fattys and 12" rims

when they go bad i will knock them off and hammer another set on

he asked..I said...no pizzing contest...

he said he didnt want to hear better or worse just who has

on them

run what ya brung

Attached picture 6060523-rearshotfattys.jpg

Posted By: 446acuda

Re: Green Bearings for AutoX or road racing - 07/01/10 03:12 AM

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No one said ball wheel bearings are STRONGER than tapered wheel bearings.

In reality, ball wheel bearings are adequate for most applications, and they are MUCH MORE COMMON than tapered rear wheel bearings. Ford, GM, Toyota and even Chrysler installed MILLIONS of them in production vehicles over the years.

Where did I say that ball wheel bearings were stronger? I'd prefer tapered bearings but ball bearings get the job done in most applications. My main point was that the green has a QUALITY issue, not a design issue. In other words, if mopar made the 8-3/4 and Dana with an O.E. quality ball bearing, then we wouldn't even be discussing bearing failures here.

Posted By: DoctorDiff

Re: Green Bearings for AutoX or road racing - 07/01/10 05:22 AM

I wasn't replying to you. I was adding to the thread.

Posted By: Moparmal

Re: Green Bearings for AutoX or road racing - 07/01/10 10:18 AM

So I guess the summary of the answers you're looking for is this:

Ball or flat roller bearings are perfectly acceptable for std passenger car/truck use, but have a predictably shorter life span than a tapered bearing, especially is subjected to excessive abuse. They will work in hi load situations, but probably for not as long as a tapered bearing

Hopefully this summary will ensure no-one else spits the pacifier out of the cot.

Posted By: gdonovan

Re: Green Bearings for AutoX or road racing - 07/01/10 10:20 AM

A major member of this board has had two sets of green bearings fail on his ragtop and has gone back to the factory bearings on his steet car.

I'll point this thread out and see if he chimes in.

Been doing Mopars since '84, as a line tech and gear head, never seen a factory (8.75 taper) bearing fail.

I'll politely point out that most stuff for our cars is made overseas and has poor quality control, I suspect that has more to do with the failure rate than anything.

Most people would rather take the easy route then the best route, green bearings fall into that category.

Gary

Posted By: GregCon

Re: Green Bearings for AutoX or road racing - 07/01/10 11:09 AM

"Ball or flat roller bearings are perfectly acceptable for std passenger car/truck use"

Sadly, no. Replace 'perfectly' with 'marginally' and you'll get a gold star on your forehead.

Posted By: Moparmal

Re: Green Bearings for AutoX or road racing - 07/01/10 11:50 AM

I'll let you argue that with Henry, Walter P and the General...

Posted By: scratchnfotraction

Re: Green Bearings for AutoX or road racing - 07/01/10 11:58 AM

Posted By: fbernard

Re: Green Bearings for AutoX or road racing - 07/01/10 12:16 PM

to the OP : my cuda is currently using its 4th set of green bearings in 3 years. Green bearings were installed along with a Wilwood rear disc brake kit. With the current configuration (no axle seals in the housing, and the inner bearing cage seal ripped out before installation, so the bearing can be lubricated by the diff fluid ), it seems the 4th set might outlive its three predecessors. Set #2 was really driven for one day (which included 20 spirited minutes on a racetrack).

I can't switch back to OE bearings easily (need custom length axles or a custom-length centre pivot in the Truetrac diff like I did in my Challenger), or else I would do it in a pinch.

Posted By: scratchnfotraction

Re: Green Bearings for AutoX or road racing - 07/01/10 02:01 PM

fbernard..

are you running the thrust block in the diff with the disc brake set up?

might be why they do not hold up,it places a lot of side load on the bearing

may have to add a spacer like patrick did on his to take up the diff of the missing backing late or remove the thrust block alltogether like I did

with the one sealed side open to diff fluid does it seep/wick thru the other side of the bearing with out the housing seals?

Posted By: BradH

Re: Green Bearings for AutoX or road racing - 07/01/10 02:09 PM

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Forget I said anything , someone wants to run greenies in auto cross , knock yourself out.

Posted By: imfixinmopars426

Re: Green Bearings for AutoX or road racing - 07/01/10 02:30 PM

think about this,most all center sections use taper bearings for the pinion and carrier loads,hence tons stronger. the green ball has a lower side strength than taper,period. IF you doubt,put one in a press,and try and push the center out.boom

...then try a taper.

.if they work ok for some,cool. but the way the 8.75 is designed,the taper was used for a reason. would you put rollers in the front spindle of your auto/x car? nope,the ball would push through the side walls of the bearings...

. i would agree that a minimal load,drag/street would be ok for a green,but i wouldnt want to chance a failure for the little work of setting proper axle end play on a taper,myself.

Posted By: AndyF

Re: Green Bearings for AutoX or road racing - 07/01/10 02:31 PM

I only use the tapered bearings. Even if I have to go the trouble of buying new axles and/or cutting the ends off the housing.

It is getting hard to find the adjuster parts these days which is why a lot of stuff gets built with ball bearings.

Posted By: Chilort

Re: Green Bearings for AutoX or road racing - 07/01/10 02:55 PM

Go to any local junk yard and you'll find at least 1 8 3/4 axle. Pull the axle and take your new adjuster set with you. You're looking at maybe an hours worth of your time depending on how far away the junk yard is from your house (driving will take most of your time). We expertly remove the bearing retaining collar with a torch. The only reason to need a new adjuster is if someone already messed it up. Has anyone ever seen an adjuster set fail?

The locking tang can still be purchased from places like Year One or The Paddock, or you could up to a couple of years ago. ... the junk yard still has them. And it is a piece you could quickly fab up on your own if you needed to.

Moser did a fine job making correct axles for me that use the standard bearing.

An argument I'm reading is that it takes soooo much longer to setup the tapered compared to the greens. How long does it take to check end play? It takes me longer to locate my tools than to check and adjust end play.

Alot of these "reasons" for not using the stock bearing sound a lot more like "excuses."

I do think the quality of the green bearing has improved over the years. Five or more years ago people couldn't get them to last more than 15 minutes. Just based on the number of failures you read about here it seems like the quality is up. I'd still rather eat fried cat than install them though.

Posted By: 70chall440

Re: Green Bearings for AutoX or road racing - 07/01/10 04:17 PM

I appreciate all of the information; as heated as it seems to be. Like everything, "each to his own". I have run them both and to be very honest never gave it thought either way. I am building my new car (slowly) and am exploring virtually every aspect as I go along. Because I have more time than money I find it worthwhile and interesting to explore many things that I have always heard about or been told it was a certain way. I installed a triangulated 4 link system in this car not because it was better per se, more because I have never done it and wanted to try it. It has taken me months of work and I am still not down with it; I could have just left the leaf springs in it and moved on, but where is the fun in that? This is just one more issue that I felt needed exploration and based on the responses I feel that I recieved the information I needed. What bearings I will ultimately use remains undecided but not from a lack of knowledge, rather more from the fact that I dont have to decide right this minute. Again, based on the information here, I would say that I believe the green bearings would suffice. Thier strength relative to tapered bearings was never the question. The question was "are they strong enough for autox or road racing?". I believe this was answered by those who have and are using them. Thanks again for the information.

Posted By: GregCon

Re: Green Bearings for AutoX or road racing - 07/01/10 06:11 PM

Moser is actually a guilty party when it comes to the 8-3/4. They are a prolifigator of the Green bearing.

They buy up dozens of 8-3/4's then remove the stock bearings and adjusters and toss them in the garbage.

I've called them up and offered to buy the adjusters by the pair or by the bucket. No, they won't sell them. They prefer to scrap them.

I'd be curious- I don't know - if the Moser axles truly are good for stock bearings. Why? The axles companies do two or three things that ruin it for stock bearings. First, they don't properly size the length of the axle for use with thrust pins. That means if you order an A-body axle, stock width, they will send you an axle that might well be too short for even the adjuster to compensate for.

Next, they don't properly finish the end of the axle for a thrust button. What needs to be a machined, polished surface is often shipped as a rough, uneven surface. Usually the lathe center burr is sticking up.

Last, they change the register diameters in the journal area. Yes, the bearing will fit but the seal runs right on a step change in diameter which means the seal won't last long. On the last set of Strange axles I bought they had not machined the journal where the outer seal runs deep enough. If I had installed the stock bearings the seal would have been running on an unmachined rough forged surface.

These are all issues that wouldn't show up until a few hundred miles had been driven and you started leaking oil all over.

Posted By: Moparmal

Re: Green Bearings for AutoX or road racing - 07/01/10 11:13 PM

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I'll "see" your

and raise you a

Posted By: SomeCarGuy

Re: Green Bearings for AutoX or road racing - 07/02/10 12:04 AM

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when my one bearing went out,I think it was from a empty car dolly that had a wig wag to it (no thrust block)

70 mph for 250 miles,hauled a truck back smooth as glass,few days later it was toast and growling leaking oil thru the bearing itself...never broke or anything just leaked oil and had slop up and down in the bearing

boy was that anoying,wig waging for 250 miles

Wouldn't that indicate that they don't take a side load?

Posted By: scratchnfotraction

Re: Green Bearings for AutoX or road racing - 07/02/10 02:04 AM

I call your

and raise you a

after 9 yrs of

then to haul a dolly with a wig wag 250 miles

tow a truck back,then drive 80 a day for a few days

I wont

about it going out,got my $/use out of them

it was only one of them anyways

i am just guessing thats what took it out

its not like i didnt R&R them and keep an eye on them,i swaped gears to T&T/base line/

I had the same mind set from the git go,so I figure 50/50 on it

I got 9 yrs of

on the street as a daily driver at 80+ miles a day

granted,swaped gears and killed a chunk along the way

thats my thrust block idea,the wig wag was on the 742 with no thrust block

I ran the 489 with the thrust block for 5 or so yrs..with gear changes

I aksed moser when I got them and they told me the axle would be cut to fit the 489 and run the large brake off set with greens with the thrust block

so IIRC the axle may come up a tad short

i dont know,thats why i bought them and stabed and jabed them in the narrowed houseing they cut to A-body specs with the A-body spec custom alloy axles

so I would

with the comments about the mass produced axle not being stock bearing freindly

thats how i know the Doc has the best deal on the greens and seals

dont have to many

wackin the seals in either,its a good 12$ to run with out them

which is why I know they seem to seal with only the o-ring

i would like to know more info on tearing the inner seal off a green so it has oil to it

wonder how long the other side is gonna hold oil in

when my one bearing went out,it leaked thru the axle shaft and lower race of the bearing( not the o ring)

so yea,I guess greens are made for us,as in me, a shadetree hickabilly rabid parts changers

run what ya brung..I do..and if you out run it..well,thats cause you can

Posted By: gdonovan

Re: Green Bearings for AutoX or road racing - 07/02/10 02:32 AM

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Moser is actually a guilty party when it comes to the 8-3/4.

They have done two sets of axles for me with taper bearings, zero problems.

Posted By: fbernard

Re: Green Bearings for AutoX or road racing - 07/03/10 10:41 AM

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fbernard..

are you running the thrust block in the diff with the disc brake set up?

No, as it is not wide enough with the huge aluminum flanges supplied with the Wilwood brakes. I have the same kit in my Challenger and had a thicker thrust block made.

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with the one sealed side open to diff fluid does it seep/wick thru the other side of the bearing with out the housing seals?

No leaks at the moment.

The thrust block is useful to split side load between the two bearings when cornering. That works just fine with OE tapered bearings.

I have not tried the thrust block with the greens.

Posted By: moparx

Re: Green Bearings for AutoX or road racing - 07/03/10 12:27 PM

i sent a pic to the good DOC, showing my dana 60 axles with greentype bearings WITHOUT inner seals/splash plates/whatever they are called. he replyed they were 57 olds bearings [i suplied the dimentions and #s from them] he said they were GOOD bearings, but very hard to find. just something to thimk about.....

Posted By: gdonovan

Re: Green Bearings for AutoX or road racing - 07/03/10 12:53 PM

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An argument I'm reading is that it takes soooo much longer to setup the tapered compared to the greens. How long does it take to check end play? It takes me longer to locate my tools than to check and adjust end play.

I laughed when I read that, I always used the "Mark I eyeball tool" myself.

All you guys whining how long it takes to setup, you got it good. When I want to change gears in the Duster it has a 8.25" and takes a bit longer than a half hour eh?

Posted By: DoctorDiff

Re: Green Bearings for AutoX or road racing - 07/03/10 01:41 PM

Who ever designed Wilwood disc brakes didn't take into account the space once occupied by the original drum brake backing plates.

Wilwood backing plates double as wheel bearing retainers. This positions the axles too far inward. You must run a 1/8" spacer between the backing plate and the housing end, otherwise the bearings will self destruct due to excessive preloading of the axles against the thrust block.

Posted By: ThermoQuad

Re: Green Bearings for AutoX or road racing - 07/03/10 02:38 PM

I have real data [lots of road course miles] but it's with the stock tapered bearings. I would not use the green bearings even if they were free.

It's a poor choice for the intended application no matter which way you want to spin it...

Green Bearings for AutoX or road racing