Moparts
coolant flow issues *update* *ah-HA*
Posted By: feets
coolant flow issues *update* *ah-HA* - 06/28/10 12:57 AM
I was playing with the hot rod again today trying to figure out the coolant flow issues.
After driving the car for a while I parked it in the driveway and revved the snot out of it to heat soak the engine.
I shut the engine off and took measurements with my IR temp gun.
Old Auto Meter mechanical gauge: 235
Sending unit for mechanical gauge: 222
Top radiator tank on passenger side near hose: 239
Top radiator tank on driver side opposite hose: 233
Bottom passenger side tank opposite hose: 95
Bottom driver side tank near hose: 93
Driver side Edelbrock head measured on center of end: 195
Passenger side Edelbrock head measured close to center on end: 258
My alternator prevented me from measuring the same spot on each head but I got really close.
I've got to have something blocking the water to the passenger side of the engine.
What route does the coolant take through the engine?
It's obvious there's a flow obstruction since I've got a 140 degree temperature drop across the radiator.
The good news is that the monster cooling fan is certainly doing it's job.
Posted By: 67coronetman
Re: coolant flow isues - 06/28/10 01:05 AM
Nice ride mine heats up and i will be making a fan shroud for it on monday will let every one know how it cools after that.
Posted By: feets
Re: coolant flow isues - 06/28/10 01:52 AM
Mine just started this issue. The hard part is that I changed the water pump, pump housing, thermostat, cap, fan, and hoses all at the same time.
I have no idea which part(s) is/are the problem. My old water pump housing has a broken bolt boss and I really didn't want to put it back on.
Posted By: RapidRobert
Re: coolant flow isues - 06/28/10 02:08 AM
The WP housing would be about the only part that could affect both sides differently (the pump itself maybe). Will it fit back on there long enough to confirm/deny? And check the passages on the current housing when you do
Posted By: ahy
Re: coolant flow isues - 06/28/10 02:22 AM
Agree, the WP housing is the best place to start. It directs the cool water to both sides of the engine. If something is fouled up inside it may not be directing correctly.
Posted By: Crizila
Re: coolant flow isues - 06/28/10 02:54 AM
Quote:
I was playing with the hot rod again today trying to figure out the coolant flow issues.
After driving the car for a while I parked it in the driveway and revved the snot out of it to heat soak the engine.
I shut the engine off and took measurements with my IR temp gun.
Old Auto Meter mechanical gauge: 235
Sending unit for mechanical gauge: 222
Top radiator tank on passenger side near hose: 239
Top radiator tank on driver side opposite hose: 233
Bottom passenger side tank opposite hose: 95
Bottom driver side tank near hose: 93
Driver side Edelbrock head measured on center of end: 195
Passenger side Edelbrock head measured close to center on end: 258
My alternator prevented me from measuring the same spot on each head but I got really close.
I've got to have something blocking the water to the passenger side of the engine.
What route does the coolant take through the engine?
It's obvious there's a flow obstruction since I've got a 140 degree temperature drop across the radiator.
The good news is that the monster cooling fan is certainly doing it's job.
Not sure you have a problem at all. Rad temps look good. Remember, the coolant isn't flowing. In the rad, should be hottest at the top and coolist at the bottom and side to side they look good. As far as the head temps, you have to measure them at EXACTLY the same spots to do a comparison - and even then a valve open here and closed there can make a big temp difference in short order - especially with aluminum. If the motor runs on the stat, I wouldn't worry about it. Some times too much info can be a bad thing 
Posted By: 67coronetman
Re: coolant flow isues - 06/28/10 03:03 AM
Me too i have changed all those items too its better but i have never had a mopar street car run hotter than 185 all day for me.!
Posted By: feets
Re: coolant flow isues - 06/28/10 03:25 AM
I do have a problem. The engine heats up. I can't get it to hold a steady temp for very long with all the new stuff.
It creeps up. If I stop and idle it'll drop quickly.
When I pulled in at the gas station it was touching 230 degrees. I paid at the pump and got 7 gallons. When I restarted the engine, the temp dropped 25 degrees.
Everything was off while I was pumping fuel.
The engine heated up again as I hit the road.
Rolling down the road at 35 mph will slowly heat the engine to 230 according to the gauge. idling for a couple minutes will bring it right back down.
If the bottom of the radiator is that cool why is the engine heating up so rapidly? Something has to be killing the flow.
Posted By: ademon
Re: coolant flow isues - 06/28/10 05:21 AM
My sb is also "funny" it stays on t-stat around town and slower trafic but on the highway at 60 to 70 mph it seems to slowly creep up. not sure if your elec or reg fan is "windmilling" causing a airflow block across the radiator, i have a 4 core rad and a few things i have read said it may hurt cooling being to thick and slowing the air movement across it, not sure just putting it out there
Posted By: FuryUs
Re: coolant flow issues - 06/28/10 09:45 AM
Cruising along, you should have at least us much air flow (unless the fan is inhibiting air flow, but I doubt it) and more coolant flow than at idle due to increased engine RPMs. Maybe the pump is cavitating? Engine tune? Belt slipping?
Posted By: ngpSatellite
Re: coolant flow isues - 06/28/10 11:19 AM
almost sounds like your water pump is slipping???
Posted By: waspnest69
Re: coolant flow isues - 06/28/10 03:18 PM
For what its worth my superbee had some issues...turned out the bottom radiator hose was collapsing when reved up
Posted By: Dads426
Re: coolant flow isues - 06/28/10 04:05 PM
Had somewhat of a similar problem with the 493 race motor. Ran very hot (250 degrees), cylinder head temp was 100 degrees different (hotter on passenger side). Pulled the water pump and blocked the bypass below the thermostat housing. Adapted a garden hose fitting to the temp sender on the waterpump housing, removed the top rad hose and clamped it to block the flow through the radiator. Turned on the hose and noted the water flow from both sides of the waterpump housing. Our passenger side was blocked; very little flow compared to the driver's side. Turned out the block was partially filled and the back two cylinders had residue between them preventing water from exiting the block.
Coolant flow on a big block is isolated on each side; there is no cross-over. With the garden hose attachment, water flows into the top hole of the block (from waterpump housing), up into the front of the head to the back of the head, into the block and foward to exit the lower hole in the block. There is a passage on each side of the front section of the waterpump housing where the water will flow out and it should be the same for both sides.
Posted By: feets
Re: coolant flow issues - 06/28/10 04:56 PM
1) The cooling fan is not blocking air. If it was, there would not be a 140 degree drop in temperature top to bottom.
2) The lower hose is not collapsing. Visual confirmation.
3) The pulley is not slipping. I have a one belt system. If it was slipping I would not be able to charge more than 50 amps with the alternator.
Another annoying problem is the radiator cap. When the engine gets really hot the cap will get loose. I have to turn it 90 degrees to tighten it up again.
I will pick up a new stat and cap from Napa and see if that helps.
I have tested the thermostat. It opens at the correct temperature. Maybe it's weak and can't hold itself open against the flow from the new water pump.
If that doesn't work, I'll pull the pump housing again and verify the passages are good.
I didn't have this problem until I swapped the pump, housing, stat, cap, and hoses all at once.
Posted By: Chilort
Re: coolant flow issues - 06/28/10 08:58 PM
What water pump housing are you using. There's a thread floating around here somewhere about some housings that don't flow very well.
Posted By: MarPar
Re: coolant flow issues - 06/28/10 09:07 PM
Posted By: ahy
Re: coolant flow issues - 06/28/10 11:44 PM
Pulling the stat out completly as a test would confirm or eliminate that problem... plus its easy.
Hot when running, cool at idle usually means a water flow problem. In my experience usually a plugged radiator. But you say it was OK before so unless crud got in the radiator its something else.
If all else fails, can you put your whole old setup back on - housing, pump and stat or no stat as a test?
Posted By: feets
Re: coolant flow issues - 06/29/10 02:52 AM
I'm using the aluminum water pump housing from Magnum HP. I bought it 4 years ago and never installed it. Greg says he hasn't had a problem with any of them but does not know if they came from the same manufacturer as the 440 Source stuff.
The water pump is also aluminum with Japan cast in it. It has the plate behind the blades.
I know it's some sort of water flow issue. It's simply not normal to get a 140 degree temperature drop across a radiator. I need to find out where the problem is.
I didn't mess with it tonight. It was raining. My hand and arm are killing me. Luckily, I have an appointment with the orthopedic doc in the morning.
Maybe I'll mess with it tomorrow if everything is better.
Posted By: Chilort
Re: coolant flow issues - 06/29/10 04:03 PM
My "Japan" water pump is a Milodon with the little plate behind it and I found it to be no better or no worse than the one I had in it from Autozone. It just has a plate and costs twice as much.
Posted By: Crizila
Re: coolant flow issues - 06/29/10 05:53 PM
With the temps you provided I assume it is a down flow rad? If so, have you run it with the cap off to see coolant movement when the stat opens. Should be lots of movement accross the opening. Have you taken any primary exhaust pipe temps? How do they compare?
Posted By: Paladin
Re: coolant flow issues - 06/29/10 08:01 PM
Feets,
You might look at some sort of blockage in your radiator. We have been through this issue twice with my wife's Durango, and it is a far more common problem than most people realize.
Usually if it is the radiator, the vehicle will only heat up at speed, much like an airflow problem due to improper ducting through the radiator.
I have seen this happen with radiators which looked to be in great shape visually, and some which were only a couple of years old. Older cars driven only locally around town are notorious for it.
May God bless you and yours,
Paladin
Posted By: Crizila
Re: coolant flow issues - 06/29/10 08:32 PM
Pull the spring out of the lower hose. Fire it up and if you have a rad blockage it will suck flat real fast - or just pull the lower hose and with the cap off you should get close to a full outlet of water gushing out.
Posted By: feets
Re: coolant flow issues - 06/30/10 02:57 PM
Thanks for the input. I know my radiator has some gunk in it but it still dumps fluid nicely.
There is no spring in the new lower hose but it's not sucking flat.
Paladin, you just might make a man out of that boy yet.
Posted By: feets
Re: coolant flow issues *update* - 07/01/10 03:24 AM
I pulled everything out tonight. It was raining but the temps were down. That made it so much better than the 100+ degree heat we've had lately. I got wet but no biggie.
The aluminum water pump housing that I got from Magnum HP is a really nice piece. It's got no name on it but the passages are just as big as the factory pieces.
The radiator did have some ick in it so it's going to be dunked tomorrow.
A new temp gauge is waiting for me at Speedtek.
I'll find a new cap and stat to use too.
I should have everything back together this weekend.
Posted By: Crizila
Re: coolant flow issues *update* - 07/01/10 01:36 PM
Keep us posted. I'm curious. Running some more temp #'s after you have the rad cleaned would be interesting?
Posted By: Efidart
Re: coolant flow issues *update* - 07/01/10 05:31 PM
Block your bypass in your watepump housing, fixed all my problems with flow.
Pull the thermostat housing and thermostat, look down and plug that hole. Now all the water from your heads is going into the rad not recycling back into your engine. There is still a small interal bypass near the bottom waterpump bolt that still allows some hot/cold mix.
Posted By: feets
Re: coolant flow issues *update* - 07/01/10 07:07 PM
The original WP housing had the bypass and worked well for years.
I'll try to run the housing with the bypass open and see how it works. The radiator should be done today. If so, I'll try to put it back together this weekend.
Posted By: feets
Re: coolant flow issues *update* *ah-HA* - 07/01/10 09:31 PM
The radiator shop called back. A priest and rabbi working together coldn't bring this radiator back to life. Apparently, the core is over 75% blocked.
It was cooling, not great but still cooling, before I made the changes. I guess the new high flow pump stirred up more goo than the factory pump.
I'll pick up the replacement tomorrow. Apparently, it's an aluminum core with plastic tanks. I'm not too worried about that because plastic tanks can be sealed if they leak.
Posted By: Crizila
Re: coolant flow issues *update* *ah-HA* - 07/01/10 09:37 PM
I put one in my wifes car a year ago with no problems. They cool real good. Don't look too OEM though.
Posted By: feets
Re: coolant flow issues *update* *ah-HA* - 07/01/10 10:29 PM
Quote:
I put one in my wifes car a year ago with no problems. They cool real good. Don't look too OEM though.
WHAT?!?!?
You mean it won't look like a factory 1965 twin turbocharged fuel injected 440 Belvedere radiator? 
Posted By: nomore65BelvJim
Re: coolant flow issues *update* *ah-HA* - 07/01/10 10:32 PM
Quote:
I guess the new high flow pump stirred up more goo than the factory pump.
some of that goo is probably in the block, lines and heater core now.
Posted By: feets
Re: coolant flow issues *update* *ah-HA* - 07/01/10 10:46 PM
What's this heater core you speak of? Is that the big black thingie under the dash that blocks access to wiring and hasn't been connected in years?
Since I did the work in the rain last night, I stuffed a garden hose in each side of the block and let it flow until the water came out clean. There was no coolant in there at the time so it was no biggie. I flushed it heads first then through the block.
I'll pull the drain plugs and do it again to be sure everything's out. Getting rained on is one thing but I didn't care to lay down in it and get that kind of bath.
Posted By: nomore65BelvJim
Re: coolant flow issues *update* *ah-HA* - 07/01/10 10:53 PM
I should have known, you being in Texas and all
Posted By: feets
Re: coolant flow issues *update* *ah-HA* - 07/01/10 11:58 PM
Not much need for a heater here. We don't cool off at night like some desert areas do.
Naturally, when winter sets in I'll be looking for a heater.
Posted By: Paladin
Re: coolant flow issues *update* *ah-HA* - 07/02/10 02:56 PM
Feets,
I had a feeling it might be the radiator, the signs were classic. Over the years I have had many people complain about cooling problems, and you could put your hand at the top and bottom of the radiator and feel a dramatic temperature difference. The radiator might look good, but once it was pulled and inspected it was a different story.
I also thought you might like to know about both of my sons. Levi and Ethan were accepted to Annapolis, and are doing quite well. Levi is in his third year, and is currently ranked 12th in his class with a major in Mechanical Engineering. He just finished up a four week summer course at Quantico called Leatherneck, a school for prospective Marine Corps officr.
Ethan just completed his plebe year, and also chose Mech E. He made it as a walk-on for their pistol team, and recently was top shooter for his team at the Junior Olympics. That is his gray SE in the photo, it was taken right before he shipped at for Pearl on a summer cruise. Both are working for a commission in the Marine Corps.
May God bless America,
Paladin
Posted By: Crizila
Re: coolant flow issues - 07/02/10 03:14 PM
Quote:
1)
I didn't have this problem until I swapped the pump, housing, stat, cap, and hoses all at once.
- - and there in lies the "curve ball" 
Posted By: feets
Re: coolant flow issues *update* *ah-HA* - 07/02/10 03:24 PM
It looks like the boys are doing great! Maybe they'll grow up to be like their old man and strike fear in the hearts of bad guys everywhere.
The Navy and Marines simply have different bad guys.
Tell that young whipper snapper that I'll still take him on bowling pins at 200 yards with revolvers.
the problem pump was from 440 source. 