Which aluminum heads

Which aluminum heads - 05/27/10 12:50 AM

I have only messed with 40 year old iron heads.

So, if I was building a stout 440, 9.5 - 10.1 compression

Comp XE 274 OR Comp XE 275 HL cam with TTI headers. Speed demon carb. Edelbrock performer RPM intake.

Which head is the choice head, right out of the box (checked by machinist before assembly of course).

From your experience, why or why not?
I have heard the edelbrock RPM heads are great for the mopar engines....but.... you tell me!

#1 Edelbrock Performer RPM
#2 440 source stealth heads
#3 Indy 440 SR heads

eight

Posted By: AndyF

Re: Which aluminum heads - 05/27/10 01:15 AM

I doubt you want SR heads, they have raised ports, external oiling and a different valley plate. It doesn't sound like that you would need all of those issues with what you have planned.

Edelbrock heads have angled plugs, Stealth have straight plugs so that might make a difference depending on your headers.

Posted By: Challenger 1

Re: Which aluminum heads - 05/27/10 01:23 AM

Edlebrock for sure, no question in my mind.

Posted By: DaytonaTurbo

Re: Which aluminum heads - 05/27/10 01:33 AM

The eddy rpm or 440source heads will do you just fine for what you want. They've both been flow tested to very very similar numbers to each other. I run the 440source heads, no problems.

Posted By: chrisf

Re: Which aluminum heads - 05/27/10 01:35 AM

having owned both eddies and 440source ones....hands down without even a second though. edelbrock

indy is only helpful when your paying them to be helpful

Posted By: sixbbl69

Re: Which aluminum heads - 05/27/10 01:41 AM

Edelbrock made MP heads right out of the box and have straight plugs. very nice heads.

Posted By: racerAL

Re: Which aluminum heads - 05/27/10 02:56 AM

Quote:

Edelbrock made MP heads right out of the box and have straight plugs. very nice heads.

...thats what i run...it always seems that they are the last head mentioned when this topic somes up..

Posted By: AndyF

Re: Which aluminum heads - 05/27/10 04:17 AM

Yes, the MP "452" aluminum head is a nice choice also. Basically an Edelbrock head with straight plugs and a Mopar label on the end. I have those heads on the 512 engine in my Coronet.

Mancini Racing sells them as a complete package with CNC porting. I think that Hughes also can get you the same parts or sell you a ported Edelbrock head.

Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Which aluminum heads - 05/27/10 06:27 AM

I suggest checking with TTI on fitment of the angle plug Edelbrocks. I have both in the Charger. The 2" TTI pipes DO clear the plugs, but changing them requires patience. #2 and #4 require removal/install from under the car. #6 and#8 can be done from above, but is much easier from the Right wheelwell through the hole in the fender apron the factory punched for access to the alignment cams! The Eddy heads have had a few growing pains, from what I have heard, but that was back when they were first introduced. Some were known to have twisted decks, requiring milling to get perfectly flat. I personally have had 7 valves replaced due to stem wear. Both my machinist and I thought that there could be a rocker arm geometry problem, but I cant imagine how. My block is a 440 .030 over and the block deck was only cut .006 for a cleanup. Its not as if I milled the heads .050 like they used to recommend years ago in the Mopar Muscle tech section. Either way, the heads have given great service. No gasket failures even with 10.8 to 1 squeeze.

Posted By: ireland383

Re: Which aluminum heads - 05/27/10 10:33 AM

Stealth heads here with no issues. Machinist checked them out and was impressed. Just needed different length pushrods.

Posted By: therocks

Re: Which aluminum heads - 05/27/10 01:40 PM

I have the Stealths also.Going on the 3rd year and no problems.I did change the sprimgs, locks, and retainers as I run a .588 lift and solids with a 4 speed and hit some high revs.My pushrods cleared just barely.I was thinking of the Eddys but the angled plugs were a problem with my dome pistons.Just what ever you buy have a good machine shop check them.Rocky

Posted By: Boise Chall

Re: Which aluminum heads - 05/27/10 02:07 PM

Stealths here also had machinist check them and put in better locks,springs and retainers Like Kim @ 440source recommended for the cam I'm running. I did have to clearance the heads near the pushrods. Going on a year now with no problems but less than 1,000 miles on them

Posted By: fourgearsavoy

Re: Which aluminum heads - 05/28/10 02:26 AM

I have the Indy EZ's with a Performer RPM intake and Doug's headers with no issues with header fit and my hood closes with a 3" element and drop base air cleaner.
I think the EZ's would be the best choice with room to grow when you get used to that level of HP

Gus

Posted By: eightlitermopar

Re: Which aluminum heads - 05/28/10 03:39 AM

Wow, thanks for the replies guys....

My brother just finished his 493 stroker motor and it is scarey fast compared the stock, low compression 440 we had in it before... it has cnc ported edelbrocks.....

For my future build I have had my eyes opened

as I have a lot more options now.

I never even heard much about the mopar 452 heads, I'll have to look into a set of those for my 383 in my 71 roadrunner, then I wouldn't have to change out the headers!

Anyway...any more input let me know! As always...learning a lot here.

eight

Posted By: eightlitermopar

Re: Which aluminum heads - 05/28/10 10:03 PM

Ok, for those of you who have had 440 source heads AND edelbrock heads.... why do the edelbrock heads win that contest?

Noticable performance difference
Crappy castings?
Other sorts of quality....?

eight

Posted By: Challenger 1

Re: Which aluminum heads - 05/28/10 10:48 PM

Quote:

Ok, for those of you who have had 440 source heads AND edelbrock heads.... why do the edelbrock heads win that contest?

Noticable performance difference
Crappy castings?
Other sorts of quality....?

eight

AMERICAN MADE for one, probaly the biggest thing for me.

Posted By: chrisf

Re: Which aluminum heads - 05/28/10 11:38 PM

having had both and still owning 440 source ones i can answer that.

my source heads were the first generation. they needed locks and retainers out of the box as they were poor quality. emailed brandon and never even got a response (you will soon see a pattern here). no biggie.
bolted them on my 383 while i was building my new 383.

pulled them and took them to dodgefarmer (randy) to check out how they were holding up after 5000miles before i bolted them to my new 383. apparently they had huge amounts of porosity around the water jacket areas. Randy fixed them up (again) and was back in business.
emailed brandon again. ignored. send him another, ignored. sent him a final one saying thanks for nothing and the problem was fixed. nothing. He then emails and says he doesnt consider it a problem unless i phone and since the problem was fixed he didnt feel he needed to talk to me.

my final email was to brandon sugesting some places he could "store" his parts on his person.

if i was selling a product that was poor quality i would want to know what caused the problem. he obvously knew about the problem or didnt care as they were selling well anyways. ride the train until it falls off the tracks i guess

i have probably around $1600 into these heads right now. I bought them for the sole reason to save a couple dollars. in the long run i could have bought eddies and never had any problems.

i have posted of this issue here before and electrolisis may have been a issue. IF thats the case why didnt my eddy heads do the same thing? cheap castings on the source stuff

thanks brandon i hope my post brings in some business for you

Posted By: StealthWedge67

Re: Which aluminum heads - 05/29/10 12:25 AM

I opted for the source heads mostly because of the stock external appearance. The fact that they offer an on par performance with Eddys for about $500 less also factored in.

Posted By: MIKES_DUSTER

Re: Which aluminum heads - 05/29/10 12:32 AM

Any flow numbers on the Eddys,Stealths and MP's??

What about the Stage 6's??

Posted By: Von

Re: Which aluminum heads - 05/29/10 10:27 PM

Im not and have never been a fan of the Source stuff. With the increasing numbers of cracked Source heads, Eddys or the MP 452 heads are the only way Id go. Plus the Eddys/452s flow a little more than the Source heads, un ported.

Basically the hardware with the Source heads is useless with any cam..............not mention my experience with a few of their other parts.

Posted By: DaytonaTurbo

Re: Which aluminum heads - 05/29/10 10:36 PM

Quote:

Im not and have never been a fan of the Source stuff. With the increasing numbers of cracked Source heads, Eddys or the MP 452 heads are the only way Id go. Plus the Eddys/452s flow a little more than the Source heads, un ported.

Basically the hardware with the Source heads is useless with any cam..............not mention my experience with a few of their other parts.

I emailed 440source and they sent me the updated version of the their valve locks/retainers, for free I had to pay a couple dollars for shipping. They do just fine with my lunati 60303 cam. If you want to run any serious cam, you will be replacing the stock hardware with on 440source heads. If you want to run any serious cam, you will also be replacing stock hardware on eddy rpm heads.

As for flow #'s right OOTB, here's an eddy rpm vs 440source flow test done several years back by moparts member fast68plymouth soon after the source heads hit the market. At higher lifts the eddys do flow about 3% better than the source heads and at the very low lifts the source heads flow a hair better.

Quote:

4.375 bore, 28" test pressure, radius plate on intake, no tube on exhaust:

average flow for #5 and #7 cylinder

lift----I/E
.100--63.8/49.0
.200-140.5/104.1
.300-207.8/139.7
.400-239.2/164.6
.450-248.1/172.5
.500-256.1/177.8
.550-261.5/182.6
.600-265.3/188.2
.650-267.3/191.5
.700-267.3/195.8

here is an OOTB E head i tested recently, also the average for a left and right cylinder:

lift----I/E
.100--66.1/50.8
.200-138.3/105.4
.300-203.8/140.5
.400-243.1/163.6
.450-258.0/170.4
.500-265.7/178.6
.550-272.3/185.3
.600-276.5/190.3
.650-276.1/194.6
.700-275.7/197.3

I've read chrisf's issues with the 440source heads before and that is really crazy what happened to his heads. I was on the waiting list for source heads and got mine when they first came out, however they sat on the shelf for years and I'm about to take them off my 440 for a motor rebuild but haven't put much miles on the source heads.

Posted By: Moparzrule

Re: Which aluminum heads - 05/30/10 12:09 AM

Are the MP heads open or closed chamber? Mancini doesn't state, it just says 84cc chamber. I assume they are closed chamber.

Posted By: Von

Re: Which aluminum heads - 05/30/10 04:59 AM

Quote:

Are the MP heads open or closed chamber? Mancini doesn't state, it just says 84cc chamber. I assume they are closed chamber.

'
Yep, they are closed.

Posted By: eightlitermopar

Re: Which aluminum heads - 05/31/10 02:30 AM

this is exactly why I do alot of thinking before I drop any money for something like this....even if it won't make a huge difference on my mild motors.......

I am really intrigued with the mopar 452 heads. I am also enticed by hughes engines doing a CNC port job on the eddy heads.

I have not found a place that offers that for these mopar 452 heads. If there was, that would seal the deal for me now....

any thoughts or knowledge of a place that does this? I can get the eddy or source heads cnc ported with bigger valves...how about mopar?

eight

Posted By: AndyF

Re: Which aluminum heads - 05/31/10 02:38 AM

Mancini Racing sells the 452 heads with full CNC porting. Check out this article where I used those heads. This article as well as a bunch of other big block articles are in the tech archives on this board. Or go to Amazon.com and search for Mopar Big Block books. I covered the Mopar 452 head in the book along with a bunch of other stuff.

http://www.moparmusclemagazine.com/techa...lock/index.html

Posted By: eightlitermopar

Re: Which aluminum heads - 05/31/10 02:59 AM

Quote:

Mancini Racing sells the 452 heads with full CNC porting. Check out this article where I used those heads. This article as well as a bunch of other big block articles are in the tech archives on this board. Or go to Amazon.com and search for Mopar Big Block books. I covered the Mopar 452 head in the book along with a bunch of other stuff.

http://www.moparmusclemagazine.com/techa...lock/index.html

OK, really stupid question time....I see the stage VI heads with porting....

are these 452 heads and the stage VI the same thing?

I "assumed" they were different, as the 452 heads state they can use all the "stock" parts and don't require adapters and all that stuff.

Posted By: AndyF

Re: Which aluminum heads - 05/31/10 02:25 PM

Stage VI head is totally different. You do not want Stage VI heads.

Did you read the article? It has the part number as well as other information about the heads.

Posted By: broncobra

Re: Which aluminum heads - 06/01/10 02:11 AM

Hi Andy, The Mopar book "B/RB Engines" Reccomended the Stage VI above all others, esp. street and strip (what they call dual purpose) Any elaboration why? They cite casting quality, Aluminum hardness and airflow. The book states that there is a trade off in horsepower and torque, but their Stage VI is the optimum in torque due to the numbers it flows, at what RMP it flows.

Posted By: eightlitermopar

Re: Which aluminum heads - 06/01/10 02:38 AM

Quote:

Stage VI head is totally different. You do not want Stage VI heads.

Did you read the article? It has the part number as well as other information about the heads.

Yes I read the article, very informative and impressive results with these heads.

Being a holiday weekend I did not call mancini, I was just looking at their website on their heads listed here --> http://chucker54.stores.yahoo.net/aluminumheads2.html

I see the head pn P5153524 for $849.95 However, the only CNC ported aluminum mopar heads I see are the stage 6 and aluminum hemi heads

I was just wondering if they had stopped offering the CNC ported heads for this...or if I am looking in the wrong area? Was it a limited time thing? The article said they sold them, or offered them with the porting done, I just don't see them listed is all.

I could always buy the head and have hughes engines cnc port them (or so I have heard. I am just getting started looking into all of this.)

Anyway, thanks again for the input about these heads. Anymore opinions are definately welcome, I really appreciate it!

eight

Posted By: SomeCarGuy

Re: Which aluminum heads - 06/01/10 03:00 AM

Quote:

Hi Andy, The Mopar book "B/RB Engines" Reccomended the Stage VI above all others, esp. street and strip (what they call dual purpose) Any elaboration why? They cite casting quality, Aluminum hardness and airflow. The book states that there is a trade off in horsepower and torque, but their Stage VI is the optimum in torque due to the numbers it flows, at what RMP it flows.

Mopar will always tell you that their arts are the best. Far from it.

There is really nothing wrong with the Stage 6 heads if done right. just be prepared to spend the dollars to get them correct. That crosses over into a debate as to where the line is on spending money on those heads, or buying another and if you can spend money more wisely on other stuff. Or just pocket the cash.

Any Mopar shop can fix a set of 6's for you if that is what you decide to go with.

Posted By: dirtybee

Re: Which aluminum heads - 06/01/10 03:44 AM

Quote:

having had both and still owning 440 source ones i can answer that.

my source heads were the first generation. they needed locks and retainers out of the box as they were poor quality. emailed brandon and never even got a response (you will soon see a pattern here). no biggie.
bolted them on my 383 while i was building my new 383.

pulled them and took them to dodgefarmer (randy) to check out how they were holding up after 5000miles before i bolted them to my new 383. apparently they had huge amounts of porosity around the water jacket areas. Randy fixed them up (again) and was back in business.
emailed brandon again. ignored. send him another, ignored. sent him a final one saying thanks for nothing and the problem was fixed. nothing. He then emails and says he doesnt consider it a problem unless i phone and since the problem was fixed he didnt feel he needed to talk to me. my final email was to brandon sugesting some places he could "store" his parts on his person.

if i was selling a product that was poor quality i would want to know what caused the problem. he obvously knew about the problem or didnt care as they were selling well anyways. ride the train until it falls off the tracks i guess

i have probably around $1600 into these heads right now. I bought them for the sole reason to save a couple dollars. in the long run i could have bought eddies and never had any problems.

i have posted of this issue here before and electrolisis may have been a issue. IF thats the case why didnt my eddy heads do the same thing? cheap castings on the source stuff

thanks brandon i hope my post brings in some business for you

good thing the porosity only showed up around the coolant passages and not in the combustion chamber. maybe you should check your coolant

Posted By: DaytonaTurbo

Re: Which aluminum heads - 06/01/10 06:08 AM

Quote:

good thing the porosity only showed up around the coolant passages and not in the combustion chamber. maybe you should check your coolant

If memory serves, chrisf said 440source gave him some line about coolant ph levels, like anyone ever checks that. Unless you're running pure acid as a coolant this should not be happening.

Posted By: dOrk !

Re: Which aluminum heads - 06/01/10 07:04 AM

The diff in the Eddy heads .....straight and angled plug ......

Any bennies to the angled ?

Posted By: Twostick

Re: Which aluminum heads - 06/01/10 01:43 PM

Quote:

Quote:

good thing the porosity only showed up around the coolant passages and not in the combustion chamber. maybe you should check your coolant

If memory serves, chrisf said 440source gave him some line about coolant ph levels, like anyone ever checks that. Unless you're running pure acid as a coolant this should not be happening.

Coolant ph is EXACTLY what causes that kind of damage. I see it all the time in big diesels and the ph levels that can do that to cast iron are a long way short of pure acid so it's no surprise that even moderately elevated levels will erode aluminum like that. The fact that nobody ever checks it still doesn't make it 440Source's fault.

Kevin

Posted By: chrisf

Re: Which aluminum heads - 06/01/10 02:00 PM

ph could have caused this as i was using tap water to mix the antifreeze. (dont anymore) I said these heads had 5000 miles which may be a stretch. probably closer to 3000. so, in that short of time it ate into the heads. thats a junk casting
50,000 miles maybe, not 3000 my eddy heads used the same tap water mix and had zero problems. i even ran straight tap water for a time with the eddies.

wasnt so mad about the problem as

happens. I was more mad how i was treated by 440source and the fact that they didnt care.

Posted By: GwaiiEagle

Re: Which aluminum heads - 06/01/10 06:00 PM

Re: the angled plug Eddy's....

On my 383 I run Heddman 75150 1 3/4" accepts p/s.

It's an issue only on #6. I used a shorty plug and a mesh sock as a cover with no trouble.