Moparts
IT'S ALIVE!!! (HELP!! No Spark!) Got spark now
Posted By: 64physhy
IT'S ALIVE!!! (HELP!! No Spark!) Got spark now - 05/23/10 02:42 AM
I got my stroker dropped in, and I'm trying to start it for the break in. It cranks really slow and won't start up. The battery is at 12.6 volts, and for an added measure, I had the charger hooked up to it in the jump start mode. I only tried turning it over a couple times because I don't want to wipe out all the lube from cam, etc. The starter is a brand new mini starter from Mancini's. Where should I start?
Posted By: stumpy
Re: HELP!! Won't turn over! - 05/23/10 02:52 AM
Try backing off the timing a little. Also check and make sure you have a good paint free block ground.
Posted By: DaytonaTurbo
Re: HELP!! Won't turn over! - 05/23/10 02:52 AM
Quote:
Try backing off the timing a little.
Unplug the coil and hit the key and see if it turns over fine.
Posted By: 64physhy
Re: HELP!! Won't turn over! - 05/23/10 03:07 AM
Quote:
Try backing off the timing a little. Also check and make sure you have a good paint free block ground.
I just hooked up the grounds today, and sanded to bare metal on all the ground points. I have an MSD e-curve, so to start, I set the initial timing at 5. The curve I have set is for +26 degrees at 2600 RPM's, so it will be at 31 @ 2600 RPMS, but should still only be 5 for starting.
Posted By: RapidRobert
Re: HELP!! Won't turn over! - 05/23/10 03:35 AM
Take of the ECU pentastar connector or take off the dist to coil secondary wire at the dist end and ground it then crank it & see if you're good. As said this'll confirm/deny that it is a timing prob. I'd put a breaker bar on the crank bolt & check turning resistance and I'd take out the plugs and see if it turns fast and if doing these I'd for sure take off the intake & regoop the cam. After all of your investment I would not sweat a new bathtub gasket and a bit of labor and some even reuse them (not me though).
Posted By: 64physhy
Re: HELP!! Won't turn over! - 05/23/10 04:13 AM
Quote:
Take of the ECU pentastar connector or take off the dist to coil secondary wire at the dist end and ground it then crank it & see if you're good. As said this'll confirm/deny that it is a timing prob. I'd put a breaker bar on the crank bolt & check turning resistance and I'd take out the plugs and see if it turns fast and if doing these I'd for sure take off the intake & regoop the cam. After all of your investment I would not sweat a new bathtub gasket and a bit of labor and some even reuse them (not me though).
I turned it by hand earlier today, and it seemed good. I just went out and hooked a timing light up to see if it it's getting spark, and it's not, so I'll start there. I did mess with some wiring; relocated the battery to the trunk, put in a cut-off switch, and added a relay for the starter. None of that should have anything to do with it getting spark, but I'm going to go stare at it for awhile until something comes to me.
Posted By: RapidRobert
Re: HELP!! Won't turn over! - 05/23/10 04:20 AM
Might bring the batt up front & set it under the car and wire it directly to the starter as I like to jack up the front real high to help w air pockets and some other tricks that I'm anal about after that much investment. that'd eliminate the voltage drop issue if that's causing the prob. Here's a 5 minute read on ring break in/seal that you might find interesting. "break in secrets" at
www.mototuneusa.com
Posted By: HealthServices
Re: HELP!! Won't turn over! - 05/23/10 04:46 AM
I agree for some reason you are not getting enough voltage at the starter to crank the motor. Better and maybe easier to just relocate the battery to the front until the motor is broke in.
I would though try two things real quick before transferring the battery.
1. With the ignition disabled get some jumper cables to the starter and somewhere on the motor for block ground to see if it turns over. This will rule out a possible binding situation with the starter. This will also tell you if you have a issue with the wiring or the strength of the battery.
2. What is the condition of the battery? Does it have a high cca rating? 800 or better? If not and the wiring is wired correctly I would also test by jumping the battery with one in another car (car running)like you would two cars.
My car currently has a old yellow top Optima. I know it is starting to get weak (about 8 years old now) as the voltage at the starter will drop down to 8.5 volts sometimes when cranking. With a jump it will spin like crazy.
How did you test for spark, without the motor turning over?
Posted By: 64physhy
Re: HELP!! Won't turn over! - 05/23/10 05:29 AM
Quote:
I agree for some reason you are not getting enough voltage at the starter to crank the motor. Better and maybe easier to just relocate the battery to the front until the motor is broke in.
I would though try two things real quick before transferring the battery.
1. With the ignition disabled get some jumper cables to the starter and somewhere on the motor for block ground to see if it turns over. This will rule out a possible binding situation with the starter. This will also tell you if you have a issue with the wiring or the strength of the battery.
2. What is the condition of the battery? Does it have a high cca rating? 800 or better? If not and the wiring is wired correctly I would also test by jumping the battery with one in another car (car running)like you would two cars.
My car currently has a old yellow top Optima. I know it is starting to get weak (about 8 years old now) as the voltage at the starter will drop down to 8.5 volts sometimes when cranking. With a jump it will spin like crazy.
How did you test for spark, without the motor turning over?
After the first time, I swapped to a known good battery that's only a few months old out of my Barracuda. It's either 750 or 850 cca.
It's turning it over now, and I hooked up a timing light while cranking and it didn't flash, so that's where I figured I have no spark.
I'm done with it for tonight. I'll look into it tomorrow some more.
Posted By: HealthServices
Re: HELP!! Won't turn over! - 05/23/10 06:41 AM
Make sure you have
three wires going to your + side of the Coil.
- Dark blue - this powers your ignition from your key when the key is in the 'run' position.
- Brown this powers the ignition during cranking.
- Red this powers the MSD and goes to the distributor.
If you are looking at the bulk head connector (three connectors at this bulkhead) for these wires, it should be the
middle connector.
It will be colored like this on one side of the connector.
Dark blue ignition 'key on'
Black This used to go to your alternator but you cut this when you put the battery in the trunk
Brown ignition 'during crank'
violet you may not have this one as it goes to the temperature sending unit on the stock motor
Remember Mopars need two wires to power the ignition, one for cranking and one for when the motor is running.
Posted By: 64physhy
Re: HELP!! Won't turn over! - 05/23/10 03:08 PM
The wires going to the coil are hooked up the same as they were before, and it worked before. I'll double check everything. I know I only have 2 wires hooked directly to the + side of the coil; the red one going to the distributor, and the wire that was originally hooked the the + side of the original coil.
I checked for voltage at the coil +, and it's getting power with the key on only, which I'm pretty sure is how it's supposed to be. I'm going to check all grounds for the 10th time, and check those wires at the bulkhead. The instructions that came with my MSD didn't have that detailed of a diagram.
Posted By: HealthServices
Re: HELP!! Won't turn over! - 05/23/10 04:01 PM
You used the ford solenoid in the trunk for the starter right?
Unplug the signal wire to the ford solenoid in the trunk.
Now have someone turn the key over to the crank position.
Check the '+' side of the coil for voltage.
You need to have voltage to the coil during cranking too.
Posted By: 64physhy
Re: HELP!! Won't turn over! - 05/23/10 04:39 PM
Thanks, I'll give that a try. I have power to the coil with the key on, but haven't checked while cranking. My relay looks different than the one in your pic. All the posts are on top instead of the sides. I'm sure it works the same though.
Posted By: 64physhy
Re: HELP!! Won't turn over! - 05/23/10 06:47 PM
I tried it, and there is voltage to the coil with the key held in the crank position. So if I'm getting power to the coil, why no spark?
Posted By: HealthServices
Re: HELP!! Won't turn over! - 05/23/10 06:55 PM
Black wire for distributor is grounded.
There is a wire grounding the engine to the chassis
Rotor is in the distributor. (sorry but I have to ask)
Only one wire (orange) is on the neg side of the coil and it goes to the distributor.
Posted By: HealthServices
Re: HELP!! Won't turn over! - 05/23/10 07:07 PM
So right now your motor will turn over and you have power to the coil.
The concern now is lack of spark.
Do you have a tach and is it connected?
how?
Posted By: 64physhy
Re: HELP!! Won't turn over! - 05/23/10 08:20 PM
Quote:
Black wire for distributor is grounded.
There is a wire grounding the engine to the chassis
Rotor is in the distributor. (sorry but I have to ask)
Only one wire (orange) is on the neg side of the coil and it goes to the distributor.
Yes to all of the above.
Posted By: 64physhy
Re: HELP!! Won't turn over! - 05/23/10 08:23 PM
I do have a tach hooked up. I hooked up an old SunTach I had laying around just for the break-in. I have the green wire to the tach going to the green tack output wire from the distributor. The red wire to the tach is hooked to battery power, and the black wire is grounded. I didn't hook up the white tach wire because I don't need the light for now.
I had thought the tach could be the problem, so I disconnected the green wire. I haven't tried cranking it since then.
Posted By: 64physhy
Re: HELP!! Won't turn over! - 05/23/10 08:29 PM
I also checked to make sure I'm getting power from the coil to the cap, and it has power. So then I loosened the distributor and pulled the number one plug wire off the plug and checked for power as I turned the distributor back and forth (with the #1 lined up with rotor). I got nothing at the plug end like this, so I ran a jumper from the coil terminal in the cap to the #1 terminal in the cap, and had power at the plug end of the plug wire. So do I need to adjust the pick-up on the rotor so it's closer? I'm not sure, because I don't think spark could jump that gap with only battery power, but somebody else said to try it.
Posted By: HealthServices
Re: HELP!! Won't turn over! - 05/23/10 08:31 PM
I guess it would be OK to turn off the spark retard for now, until you get spark issue squared away.
Posted By: 64physhy
Re: HELP!! Won't turn over! - 05/23/10 08:57 PM
I've got it set on the "Q" setting right now. Switch one on "1" and switch 2 on "7". It's one of the locked start retard curves.
Posted By: HealthServices
Re: HELP!! Won't turn over! - 05/23/10 09:43 PM
I would not turn on the start retard until you have your initial timing set to start the car.
And as far as the start retard how does this work does it retard the timing 25 degrees 'Q' from initial timing, or does it put the timing at 25 degrees initial when you start the car?
Sorry I have family over today so I cannot hover over the computer.
I'm not exactly sure how the MSD start retard works but...
To start the car you will have to advance and retard the timing until the motor starts.
Let’s say with the retard the car starts at 12 degrees.
Now that the car stated (above 600 rpm) the MSD will put the timing where it really is (+25 degrees for 'q')which is now 37 degrees initial plus you have the timing curve to content with. Well you don’t have time to set the timing because you have to break in the cam!
No, turn off the start retard.
Now that the motor will turn over, go to your first post and change the subject to
'No start... help' or 'No spark HELP!'
Posted By: 64physhy
Re: 'No start... HELP!' - 05/24/10 12:28 AM
Going to double check that I don't have the dist in 180 off. Right now, the dist is pointing to #6, and both valves on #1 are closed. Is this correct, or am I 180 off?
Posted By: 64physhy
Re: 'No start... HELP!' - 05/24/10 12:54 AM
Went to re-re-check. Dist was pointing at (or about) #6 with timing marks at 10 before. When I turned the engine by hand, the #1 intake valve started opening. I'm thinking that's 180 off. Am I wrong or right?
It should not be firing when the valve is opening so if it is pointing at the 6 while the intake is opening you are ok
Posted By: 64physhy
Re: 'No start... HELP!' - 05/24/10 01:10 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong:
If the intake valve is just starting to open, then the exhaust valve just closed, which means the rotor should just be passing #6.
If this is correct, then I have it installed correctly.
Posted By: 64physhy
Re: 'No start... HELP!' - 05/24/10 01:11 AM
Quote:
It should not be firing when the valve is opening so if it is pointing at the 6 while the intake is opening you are ok
Good, that's what I thought. I started second guessing myself, and was about to rotate it 180.
Posted By: 64physhy
Re: 'No start... HELP!' - 05/24/10 01:55 AM
This is really starting to get annoying. I've been trying to figure this out for 2 days now. Before I put this engine in, I hooked up the distributor and everything except for the starter to the old engine to make sure it would work so i didn't run into these problems. That obviously didn't work. I'm at a loss now. I can't figure out how there can be power at the coil, and in the cap from the coil, but not getting down the wires to the plugs.
Is there a way to shim Mopar starters? I've never had to do anything special with them before, but I've had to shim Chevy starters. It seems to be engaging and disengaging ok, but I was thinking maybe it's just a little tight, and that could be why it's turning over sluggishly. Anyone around San Diego want to come give me a hand with this?
You know one thing I did not think of (since the battery is in the trunk) was possibility of voltage lost at the coil. Have everything connected like you were going to start it except the wire going to the coil '+' Hook this up to a voltmeter. Actually it can still be connected since the motor won't start.
What is the voltage when the motor is cranking?
If it drops below 9 volts while actually cranking then there is a good chance there is not enough voltage to power the MSD. I cannot remember the voltage required to power a MSD, but I think it was 8.7 and up?
Posted By: nd65
Re: 'No start... HELP!' - 05/24/10 12:28 PM
Is the air gap in the distributor set properly? I went to fire up my new 440 a few weeks ago0 no spark. It ended up being the air gap was set at .065- 1/16" It should have been .008 max. when I set it correctly it started up immediately.
I sent the distributor to FBO to curve it and they also put in a new pickup coil and did not set the gap properly grrr...
Posted By: repad
Re: 'No start... HELP!' - 05/24/10 12:54 PM
Quote:
Going to double check that I don't have the dist in 180 off. Right now, the dist is pointing to #6, and both valves on #1 are closed. Is this correct, or am I 180 off?
If it were me, I would recheck your 180 out theory at #1 not #6. Simply turn the engine by hand with spark plug removed from #1 until you feel air pushing out of the plug hole to verify that you are wired correctly.
Posted By: 64physhy
Re: 'No start... HELP!' - 05/24/10 06:07 PM
Quote:
Is the air gap in the distributor set properly? I went to fire up my new 440 a few weeks ago0 no spark. It ended up being the air gap was set at .065- 1/16" It should have been .008 max. when I set it correctly it started up immediately.
I sent the distributor to FBO to curve it and they also put in a new pickup coil and did not set the gap properly grrr...
I've thought about that, but haven't checked it yet. I will check it when I get home. Any tips on how to check it? Sitting here thinking about it, I don't see how you could tell what the gap is inside the cap.
Posted By: nd65
Re: 'No start... HELP!' - 05/24/10 06:18 PM
Line up the reluctor tooth with the pick up. Loosen the pick up screw and insert a .008 non metalic feeler gauge. Set the gap and tighten.
Good luck
Posted By: 64physhy
Re: 'No start... HELP!' - 05/25/10 02:05 AM
FINALLY!!! I got it going. I moved the battery back to the front, changed out the coil, and that's really all. Not sure which fixed it, but I think it was putting the battery back up front. I think it was losing too much by the time it got to the front. I guess the Summit Cables must have too much resistance or something. Hopefully, now that it's broke in, it will have enough juice from the trunk. I'll find out, I guess. Thanks to all your inputs and advice!!
Posted By: 64physhy
Re: 'No start... HELP!' - 05/25/10 02:07 AM
Oh, and might I add, the thing sounds like a BEAST!!! Can't wait to get her out on the road. Sounds like I need to make some minor adjustments to a couple valves, but other than that...SUUUUWEET!!
Posted By: 64physhy
Re: 'No start... HELP!' - 05/27/10 12:36 PM
I'lll post when I figure it out. Haven't had time to work on it much the last couple days and I'm not going to this weekend, either. Probably be the middle of next week.
Posted By: 64physhy
Re: 'No start... HELP!' - 06/01/10 09:02 PM
I just got done moving the battery back to the trunk. Hooked everything up exactly the way it was before in the same locations, and it works now. I have no idea what the problem was in the first place. Tight engine, maybe?
