Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end ?'s

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end - 11/04/07 06:40 AM

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Actually the AlterKtion takes alot of stress off the chassis by removing the twisting stress the torsion bars put on the crossmember and the front suspension. The AlterKtion is the only aftermarket k-member I am aware of that puts all the weight and spring loads onto itself. And I can tell you it is more than capable of handeling it. Just the addition of an AlterKtion and subframe connectors makes driving an older car enjoyable again.

Actually, the torsion bars putting the load down low and into the cross member is probably one of the best features of that design. It puts alot of the load down low and out back. That's actually great design.

Moving the load does not eliminate it. Relocating it up front like that puts more load onto the frame rails directly in the front. Our setup puts more into the front rails and the shock tower, as opposed to primarily the rails as you are describing.

That's why we tie the frame rails together with a lower rad support, and use inner fender braces and engine bay brace to reinforce the shock towers.

Our K also reinforces the frame rails - notice how it is boxed across the rails and has two attachment points on each side of the four points that go into the rails? We're making it all tighter and stiffer.

If you look at the picture just above, the lower rad support and the two cross bars on the K are tying the frame rails together from underneath at three different locations. And the two bars on the K are boxed (tied together).

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end - 11/04/07 07:17 AM

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If you take a look at this photo you can see the AlterKtion coilover is contained. The pressure of the spring/shock is on the K-member itself and does NOT put the pressure on the existing Mopar chassis other than the same points the original K-member bolts to.

Except that the original chassis had a large portion of the load into the cross member and it's now all at the mounting points for the K, further forward.

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The AlterKtion does not need the upper mounting to be WELDED into the mopar chassis tower assy. It is a true bolt-in system.

Yes, it is a true bolt in, which admittedly always creates greater compromises when you commit to doing it only as a bolt in - which makes it for a bigger audience right there. The trade off of not welding it into the shock tower however, is shock travel. Take a look and see.

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Just the addition of an AlterKtion and subframe connectors makes driving an older car enjoyable again.

Since you have it installed and are happy with it, I don't doubt you. I don't know how much is suspension versus the feeling a rack gives you, as the difference on that alone is dramatic. But, irrespective, if you're happy that is what really matters - seriously.

What we have clearly is not for everyone, but it's also not the same - not by a longshot.

Posted By: RTSE4ME

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end - 11/04/07 01:41 PM

Just wondering what the advantage is with longer shock travel? Thanks

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end - 11/04/07 03:04 PM

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Just wondering what the advantage is with longer shock travel? Thanks

You can incorporate bump stops into your system...

...you don't have to worry about the shock bottoming out, you have more flexibility with ride height and more than likely in a road racing environment the shock is very likely going to live alot longer and/or be less prone to overheating (also why you really want a monotube shock). The road race issues are admittedly irrelevant for 99% of the cars.

Bump stops are probably the most important, especially on a street driven vehicle.

We actually use them front and rear. It's easier to see it in the rear. The bright blue piece above the label on the shock is a bump-stop for a coilover shock:

Posted By: Devil

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end - 11/04/07 05:02 PM

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Cause a Mopar was never built to have a suspention system like that. The way it is setup puts alot of stress where there wasn't before. Without serious strengthening to the mopar sub-frame and front frame area, it could come apart.

Actually the AlterKtion takes alot of stress off the chassis by removing the twisting stress the torsion bars put on the crossmember and the front suspension. The AlterKtion is the only aftermarket k-member I am aware of that puts all the weight and spring loads onto itself. And I can tell you it is more than capable of handeling it. Just the addition of an AlterKtion and subframe connectors makes driving an older car enjoyable again.

If you take a look at this photo you can see the AlterKtion coilover is contained. The pressure of the spring/shock is on the K-member itself and does NOT put the pressure on the existing Mopar chassis other than the same points the original K-member bolts to. The AlterKtion does not need the upper mounting to be WELDED into the mopar chassis tower assy. It is a true bolt-in system.
RMS Bolt-in System

I do not want to get into a debate over which system one should decide on. XV offers GREAT products. I have bought some myself. But, in regards to RMS vs. XV Level II, I chose the RMS. You say po-ta-toe, I say Po-Taa-toe.

The mopar K-member was never meant to take all the stress. That is why the load was transfered back tthrough the torsion bars. Now the front framerails are taking all the stress, where they didn't before. And can very possibly fail, like was said before. RMS even says that it is for OFF ROAD USE ONLY.

I wouldn't put this in a street driver in a million years, even the company tells you not too.

Ryan

Posted By: 2fast4yourBrain

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end - 11/04/07 09:36 PM

Hey John, Moparts is notorious for haters.

Don't let them prevent you from posting here. Just understand 90% of MOpar owners aren't likely to make major mods to their cars for the following reasons:

- I like the way it drives just fine; why change it?

- Keep it stock b/c it's worth more that way

- And the biggest reason....$$$. Just don't have it for big expensive mods.

Thank goodness that in America (and Canada), we have choices and we can thank high-end manufacturers to provide alternatives that can trickle down to the masses.

For backyard builders, just beef up the factory system.

For pro-touring dreamers with some coin, but not a whole lot, the Alter-k is a great choice (as in mine; got mine w/the airbags).

For the fortunate few who can drop six figures in a car restification, we have XV providing the utlimate that can compete w/exotics w/R&D to back up their claims.

You're not going to find a whole lot of the high-end market on this board, but I do wish XV still posts here so that we can see what's being offered.

Keep up the good work John! I still plan on getting your headers and power window regulators!

Posted By: Fasbird

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end - 11/05/07 12:01 AM

Ragtopdodge,

great reply. I made the RMS choice like you did, and am not bashing or hating the XV product. It's a different product, that's all. I have been looking at the window setup also. XV has some cool stuff coming at our Mopar community. Good for them.

Posted By: RTSE4ME

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end - 11/05/07 12:16 AM

Thanks for explaination. I never relized that the Level II was designed like that. It is a shame you don't post more about it. I bet if you posted more info on it you would also get more interest in the Level I setup when people see all the thought that went into designing both setups.

A Level I with a set of Firmfeel UCAs and steering box would be a lot of bang for the buck....might out perform an Alterkation or MagnumForce front end on a road course.

Posted By: sycboi

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end - 11/05/07 12:50 AM

XV has some amazing products and obviously fantastic craftsmanship. I'm not even talking about the XV products at all. They have their niche and RMS has theirs as just stated by another gentleman.

The AlterKtion is on as many street cars as it is on race cars. Find me one person who has ever purchased one that isn't an absolute die-hard supporter of it's ability and RMS in general.

The critics of RMS or XV should let those of us whom actually own products from either or both do the talking here. Only real world experience counts in this type of discussion anyways. I have owned an AlterKtion for several years now. We also just placed a $1,500 order with XV so I obviously like their products as well.

Kinda funny how this discussion has come down to people talking about the only two quality systems on the Mopar market today...

-Michael

Posted By: Devil

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end - 11/05/07 03:34 AM

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XV has some amazing products and obviously fantastic craftsmanship. I'm not even talking about the XV products at all. They have their niche and RMS has theirs as just stated by another gentleman.

The AlterKtion is on as many street cars as it is on race cars. Find me one person who has ever purchased one that isn't an absolute die-hard supporter of it's ability and RMS in general.

The critics of RMS or XV should let those of us whom actually own products from either or both do the talking here. Only real world experience counts in this type of discussion anyways. I have owned an AlterKtion for several years now. We also just placed a $1,500 order with XV so I obviously like their products as well.

Kinda funny how this discussion has come down to people talking about the only two quality systems on the Mopar market today...

-Michael

There are three quality systems on the market, RMS, XV, Magnumforce.

No one is bashing either. I don't have either of them. I did research them all for my mopar, and went with upgrading the stock suspension.

The RMS is nice for a race car, but anything street driven is rolling the dice, it isn't made for long term, street driver use, and says it in the instructions.

Magnumforce and XV have strengthened and redone basically the entire front end of our mopars and done durability tests on their equipment to ensure that their products CAN take the abuse of a street driver.

I'm not trying to bash any product, but if you want to use a product and go against what the factory says to use the product for, then by all means go ahead.

Ryan

Posted By: feets

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end - 11/05/07 07:17 PM

One thing that bothers me about the RMS system is that it removes some of the torsional strength from the front of the car.
Look at the unit off the car. There's only one little crossmember. If you grab the unit by the mounting points it would twist much easier than the stock K.
It removes the torsional load from the T-bars but the car is stuck relying on the flimsy core support to keep it from becoming a pretzel.

The XV unit has the second cross bar that helps prevent flex in the K. It's still going to move around on it's own but once installed it would lead to a much stiffer chassis.

Adding the other pieces to stiffen the vehicle would really help either setup but if you're going that far you wouldn't consider the RMS in the first place.

I don't have any experience with either setup but understanding physics and knowing how to break stuff makes me lean more towards the better designed (and painfully expensive) XV.

If you're going to go drag racing, RMS has got the better looking product assuming you've already got a cage with forward bars.

Posted By: 2fast4yourBrain

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end - 11/06/07 01:10 AM

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One thing that bothers me about the RMS system is that it removes some of the torsional strength from the front of the car.
Look at the unit off the car. There's only one little crossmember. If you grab the unit by the mounting points it would twist much easier than the stock K.
It removes the torsional load from the T-bars but the car is stuck relying on the flimsy core support to keep it from becoming a pretzel.

The XV unit has the second cross bar that helps prevent flex in the K. It's still going to move around on it's own but once installed it would lead to a much stiffer chassis.

Adding the other pieces to stiffen the vehicle would really help either setup but if you're going that far you wouldn't consider the RMS in the first place.

I don't have any experience with either setup but understanding physics and knowing how to break stuff makes me lean more towards the better designed (and painfully expensive) XV.

If you're going to go drag racing, RMS has got the better looking product assuming you've already got a cage with forward bars.

I dunno. That "little crossmember" of the RMS is pretty dang beefy. Compare that to the flimsy, sheet metal torsion bar x-member that's still there! It's not like you cut it out.

The RMS is super stiff compared to the factory K. Latter may be heavier, but not as stiff.

Folks have been on HR Power Tours w/the RMS and never heard of any issues.

Posted By: DJVCuda

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end - 11/06/07 01:23 AM

... no offence... but have you actually installed an Alter K to make those kinda claims?

I have and its not that flimsy... I'm no engineer but Bill does an excellent job making his product... so I doubt you have any factual info regarding its rubber band status...

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end - 11/06/07 01:55 AM

i too run an alter k and it has lived up to my every expectation. for being designed, fabricated, and tested by one man in his own shop with his own green backs, pretty impressive. now if my funds weren't as limited as they are with a wife and family on one income, sure give me a xv stage II. unfortunantly most of us can't afford such a bad a$$ suspension as the xv. rms vs. xv not even in the same playing field. for now i will enjoy my alter k tion.

Attached picture 3932491-valvecovers003.jpg

Posted By: Skeptic

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end - 11/06/07 02:40 AM

Honesly, I think the M.F. is the worst looking of the bunch, it has the coilovers going into the O.E. shock towers, so forward bars are MANDITORY, and they will supply them for additional cost. These old cars need...no NEED! additional support when they are going to be pushed hard, the XV system sells there before any suspension mods- Hey guys what about the A body stiffing package

The Alter-K is sweet and I would jump on one, but when I optioned out the package I wanted it was 6K

Yah 12.19" 6 piston caliper and air ride, sway bar, ect. Even the base unit ain't inexpensive. I"ve got the heim jointed strut rods and will get the same for the UCAs. Then some QA-1's and maybe some F.F. 1" t-bars to replace the .92 and eddie IACs. The 1" sway bay is fine for now. Oh! Well! I'd like to see Bill reply, and get his

outdated website taken care of. But, he HAS posted on his own site that he is crazy busy and between Production and car shows that ain't happining anytime soon.
Cause I'm really far more interested in his triangulaed 4 link rear suspension, cause mine sukzors (way too much snap-throttle oversteer) with NO rear bar. Some subframe connectors and torque boxes, ect should help the chassis. WOW long post this calls for

Posted By: Devil

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end - 11/06/07 03:15 AM

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... no offence... but have you actually installed an Alter K to make those kinda claims?

I have and its not that flimsy... I'm no engineer but Bill does an excellent job making his product... so I doubt you have any factual info regarding its rubber band status...

I don't need any evidence, nor will I ever have any from myself cause the creator of the product even says not to use it on a street car. So I won't put it on any of my street cars. I'd rather not have the front end of my car fall out in 5 or 10 years.

Ryan

Posted By: CH3NO2

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end ?'s - 11/06/07 03:35 AM

quit bashing Bill. He's deliverying a good product.

Posted By: 2fast4yourBrain

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end - 11/06/07 04:02 AM

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... no offence... but have you actually installed an Alter K to make those kinda claims?

I have and its not that flimsy... I'm no engineer but Bill does an excellent job making his product... so I doubt you have any factual info regarding its rubber band status...

I don't need any evidence, nor will I ever have any from myself cause the creator of the product even says not to use it on a street car. So I won't put it on any of my street cars. I'd rather not have the front end of my car fall out in 5 or 10 years.

Ryan

Bill has to put that disclaimer in that otherwise it'd have to get DOT-certified.

That is HUGE bucks. There are literally hundreds of cars w/the system installed and running.

Real-world tests better than some DOT rating.

Posted By: 67autocross

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end - 11/06/07 04:21 AM

The only thing I see wrong with the VX system is they don't have a level 2 set up for the A body cars. As soon as they do thats what I'll be buying.

Posted By: Skeptic

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end - 11/06/07 01:04 PM

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... no offence... but have you actually installed an Alter K to make those kinda claims?

I have and its not that flimsy... I'm no engineer but Bill does an excellent job making his product... so I doubt you have any factual info regarding its rubber band status...

I don't need any evidence, nor will I ever have any from myself cause the creator of the product even says not to use it on a street car. So I won't put it on any of my street cars. I'd rather not have the front end of my car fall out in 5 or 10 years.

Ryan

Then why do you keep posting negitive cr@p about a product you have no experience with, no clue as to the testing/engineering behind, and have no intention of useing?

Posted By: patrick

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end - 11/06/07 01:50 PM

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Quote:

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... no offence... but have you actually installed an Alter K to make those kinda claims?

I have and its not that flimsy... I'm no engineer but Bill does an excellent job making his product... so I doubt you have any factual info regarding its rubber band status...

I don't need any evidence, nor will I ever have any from myself cause the creator of the product even says not to use it on a street car. So I won't put it on any of my street cars. I'd rather not have the front end of my car fall out in 5 or 10 years.

Ryan

Bill has to put that disclaimer in that otherwise it'd have to get DOT-certified.

That is HUGE bucks. There are literally hundreds of cars w/the system installed and running.

Real-world tests better than some DOT rating.

yup, techinically, XV should be using the same disclaimer (off road use only), otherwise they could be opening themselves up to potential lawsuits. a lot of performance parts state "off road use only" due to emissions compliance, too.

Posted By: DJVCuda

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end - 11/06/07 02:34 PM

MY CARBS SAY OFF ROAD USE>>>> will they fall off in 5-10 years too?

think about what your saying!

Posted By: Devil

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end - 11/06/07 03:29 PM

Lol, you guys are funny. Haven't laughed this hard for a while.

I'm just telling the truth. You guys don't want to accept that, fine. It isn't my problem. My car drives fine and handles well. And I know it isn't going to fall apart.

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yup, techinically, XV should be using the same disclaimer (off road use only), otherwise they could be opening themselves up to potential lawsuits. a lot of performance parts state "off road use only" due to emissions compliance, too.

XV has gone through and tested their mopars to ensure that their products are streetable. I've seen the tests and the information to back it up. What disclaimer would they need since theirs is streetable? It is out of my price range, but that isn't their fault.

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Then why do you keep posting negitive cr@p about a product you have no experience with, no clue as to the testing/engineering behind, and have no intention of useing?

Cause I've analyzed the information given by all the systems, I made the informed decision to go with an upgraded stock setup, because of my price range. I went through and did pros/cons of each system. And the alterKtion was the last on the list, because of the information given before.

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MY CARBS SAY OFF ROAD USE>>>> will they fall off in 5-10 years too?

think about what your saying!

Oye, lol. That's a really intelligent post.

Ryan

Posted By: DJVCuda

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end - 11/06/07 03:32 PM

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Oye, lol. That's a really intelligent post.

Ryan

just like yours my man...lol

Posted By: RokketRide

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end - 11/06/07 04:14 PM

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The only thing I see wrong with the VX system is they don't have a level 2 set up for the A body cars. As soon as they do thats what I'll be buying.

Ditto.

At least some chassis stiffening for starters

Posted By: patrick

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end - 11/06/07 06:26 PM

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Lol, you guys are funny. Haven't laughed this hard for a while.

I'm just telling the truth. You guys don't want to accept that, fine. It isn't my problem. My car drives fine and handles well. And I know it isn't going to fall apart.

Quote:

yup, techinically, XV should be using the same disclaimer (off road use only), otherwise they could be opening themselves up to potential lawsuits. a lot of performance parts state "off road use only" due to emissions compliance, too.

XV has gone through and tested their mopars to ensure that their products are streetable. I've seen the tests and the information to back it up. What disclaimer would they need since theirs is streetable? It is out of my price range, but that isn't their fault.

yes, they did do all manner of performance tuning, FEA analysis, etc, but legally speaking, I believe a product must be DOT certified to be technically street legal, and on engine components, they must be compliant to the model year's EPA emission limits to be street legal (and CARB approved to be street legal in california). from the information posted by the XV guys, while they have done a lot of analysis and tuning, they have probably not done a full, comprehensive durability test of their setup, not like the OEM's do (100,000, 200,000, half a million cycles, thousands of on road miles with engineering bucks, etc). not knocking them, but that's the reality--there's no way a relatively small manufacturer of a fairly sophisticated product (like RMS or XV) could afford to do the level of testing that a typical OEM does.

Bill's "Off road use only" disclaimer is probably a legal CYA in case somebody wraps their car around a tree at 150mph and comes back to sue him, the suspension producer.

One thing that makes me wonder a bit about the XV system is the use of corvette LCA's and spindles. good pieces, yes, but they're designed for a 3250 lb car with 50/50 weight distribution. if you've got yourself a iron headed hemi B body, you may be tipping the scales at near 4000 lbs with more like 65/35 F/R weight distribution. that's loading those front suspension pieces 60-70% more than their original design target. While those pieces probably have enough safety factor built into them (or necessitated by stiffness requirements) for the OEM application that they will still be fine in a occasional use car like a classic mopar probably will be, but don't expect them to have the same life expectancy (essentially infinite life) as you would in the stock application.

Posted By: feets

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end ?'s - 11/06/07 07:07 PM

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quit bashing Bill. He's deliverying a good product.

I don't see anybody bashing Bill. He's produced a good product.
A direct comparison to the XV product is not possible because they're in two different realms. Bill made a good product that will work for 95% of us. XV went much farther than any of us really expected.
XV targeted the unlimited budget guys.
Bill is aiming at the real world guys.

Posted By: Fasbird

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end ?'s - 11/06/07 09:26 PM

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A direct comparison to the XV product is not possible because they're in two different realms. Bill made a good product that will work for 95% of us. XV went much farther than any of us really expected.
XV targeted the unlimited budget guys.
Bill is aiming at the real world guys.

Feets, your's is the most intelligent remarks made so far.

Patrick is also right on the money. All, as in "anyone" who makes suspension components or aftermarket pieces should be putting the disclaimer of "For Off Road Use Only" on their products for the CYA situation. They're possibly looking for a huge law suit if that isn't done.

Posted By: klunick

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end - 11/06/07 09:43 PM

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Don't forget that the alterktion front ends are for off road use only and not to be used in daily driver/cruiser applications.

Ryan

Don't tell that to everyone that is driving with them on road and loves them. Perhaps Abodyjoe will chime in. I know mine will be street driven 95% of the time and I discussed this at length and Bill personally told me there would be no issues. Also, I don't know anything about the XV product but I will tell you that until a year or so ago, RMS was the only company out there that did do side by side testing. His product did not start out as you see it now, it developed into what it is now due to his reviewing other products out there. Just my .02

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end ?'s - 11/06/07 10:06 PM

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A direct comparison to the XV product is not possible because they're in two different realms. Bill made a good product that will work for 95% of us. XV went much farther than any of us really expected.
XV targeted the unlimited budget guys.
Bill is aiming at the real world guys.

Well, this thread has made me think we should see if we can't offer our Level II setup in a more economical configuration - to make it within reach of more people.

That ball has already been set in motion.

So, give me a few weeks and we'll be releasing some new versions with lower points of entry on the cost side. Will likely be a bit more than RMS setup, but much closer.

I'm making an assumption here, that I really should be asking you guys: If we get the XV Level II closer to RMS on the cost side, but still a bit more, will more of you be interested in buying it?

Right now we are offering it only one way - best of everything. We can definitely change some pieces out and try and push down some of our costs on others as well.

There are some other VERY interesting configurations we've looked at as well that we can do easily.

Let me know what you think.

Thanks,
John

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end - 11/06/07 10:56 PM

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The only thing I see wrong with the VX system is they don't have a level 2 set up for the A body cars. As soon as they do thats what I'll be buying.

It's really hard to rationalize doing it for the A-Body cars. Originally we planned to, but right now it's not in the cards.

The reason is that we have launched products for A-Body cars and so far they really don't sell. Tilt columns - for E-Body I can't keep them in stock. B we sell plenty of as well. So far it hasn't been worth the time/money to have done the A body pieces.

Power window kits is another. I've lost track how many we've sold, primarily for E, but also alot of B-body. A-body again, hasn't been worth the effort at all.

Same with other pieces we have, numbers are many fold more for E and B, over the A.

We had put it out there long ago, if we got enough serious people for Level II A-Body, we'd do it. There's a small number who stood up, but not enough to warrant the resources in time and money. Time is our scarcest resource for getting things done. Some things are easy to do and we just knock them out. But bigger projects, we need to be confident the demand is there.

We've already started a Level II for older Mustangs - most of the work is already done. That'll be done before we have an A-Body product. From a business standpoint it's a bigger market and we have requests all day long for us to start building other kinds of cars, including Mustangs.

If there is enough demand, we'll do almost any platform - within reason. I'm sure you've noticed, we're launching many, many different products. That isn't going to stop. Lot's more in the pipeline and all to the same standards we do things to.

So if you really want us to do A-body, in this case it's a function of people stepping up and saying they are really serious - not just a post here, but get in touch with Peter and tell him you're in if we'll do it. He has a list, which has alot of dust on it and not enough names...

Level II Rear would be easy to do on the A-body. Chassis stiffening is pretty easy as well - some is already started on that. Level II Front is where it's going to require some real time and money to do it right.

John

Posted By: Moparmatty

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end ?'s - 11/06/07 11:37 PM

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Well, this thread has made me think we should see if we can't offer our Level II setup in a more economical configuration - to make it within reach of more people.

That ball has already been set in motion.

So, give me a few weeks and we'll be releasing some new versions with lower points of entry on the cost side. Will likely be a bit more than RMS setup, but much closer.

I'm making an assumption here, that I really should be asking you guys: If we get the XV Level II closer to RMS on the cost side, but still a bit more, will more of you be interested in buying it?

Right now we are offering it only one way - best of everything. We can definitely change some pieces out and try and push down some of our costs on others as well.

There are some other VERY interesting configurations we've looked at as well that we can do easily.

Let me know what you think.

Thanks,
John

John you have my full attention! I am very interested in what you are talking about. Please keep us informed.

Posted By: Moparmatty

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end ?'s - 11/06/07 11:46 PM

I also wanted to ask John. How much will these "economical" versions affect the handling of the current Level II set-up?

Posted By: RTSE4ME

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end ?'s - 11/06/07 11:47 PM

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If we get the XV Level II closer to RMS on the cost side, but still a bit more, will more of you be interested in buying it?

Yes, I would be interested. $10K+ with brakes for the Level II is a little rich for most folks I would imagine. Since, you are using C5 components could you substitute in some more econmical brakes? Or let customer source their own?

Also, you could offer a discounted package deal for someone who purchases both front and rear kits.

Posted By: PHJ426

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end ?'s - 11/07/07 12:49 AM

John,

I would probably help to let the consumers know what kind of real world difference on the road and track can be expected from the different levels of suspensions XV is producing.

Say like an "average" 60 to 0 braking test is feet for the different brake kits I know most of the kits will be tested with hydra boost.

Then on the suspension components which levels should see such and such kind of performance.

Also at what level suspension difference will it take a veteran driver on a road course to wring out the difference.....

Especially what will the difference be between Level I, Level II Lite and full out Level II

I would also be interested in what Level I can do with the chassis kit added into the mix.

I think Peter has a Level I kit on his G Machine Dart and he says he usually can run in the middle of the road with the Porsche crowd on track days.

Thanks

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end ?'s - 11/07/07 01:26 AM

hey "DEVIL"
you are only a couple hours away, and this will be a three day weekend. hop in your car and drive down here and we can take a ride in my demon with my rms. i bet you will quit bad mouthing them, and yes we will drive it "on road". heck i will even let you drive it unless it makes you neverous to drive a car with "off road" only parts. just an invite.

Attached picture 3934997-valvecovers003.jpg

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end ?'s - 11/07/07 02:06 AM

Quote:

John,

I would probably help to let the consumers know what kind of real world difference on the road and track can be expected from the different levels of suspensions XV is producing.

Say like an "average" 60 to 0 braking test is feet for the different brake kits I know most of the kits will be tested with hydra boost.

Then on the suspension components which levels should see such and such kind of performance.

Also at what level suspension difference will it take a veteran driver on a road course to wring out the difference.....

Especially what will the difference be between Level I, Level II Lite and full out Level II

I would also be interested in what Level I can do with the chassis kit added into the mix.

I think Peter has a Level I kit on his G Machine Dart and he says he usually can run in the middle of the road with the Porsche crowd on track days.

Thanks

To do all those comparisons will increase what I can sell our current setup for. We won't do back to back testing of the different pieces. Possibly some groups of components, but not sure even on that. However, we have more information than anyone on what works and what doesn't from all the testing we've already done. That testing wasn't back and forth tothe grocery store using the butt-o-meter either.

On the road differences won't be significant, it is on track where they will be seen. If you're talking about brakes for example, the brakes we have now won't have fade, lap after lap under hard conditions. For the average driver, this doesn't matter and if you're doing average track driving it won't be significant either. The brakes we are using are full on, hardcore road race quality in a huge way - road race championships are being won with them.

For the guy who is looking to really press it, lap after lap, it will matter - or if you are racing. Braking distance, without testing I'd only be guessing.

One difference on the brakes is you'll need a proportioning valve with the alternatives. With all the track time we've done and testing etc., we are not running any proportioning valve because the brakes are designed for the vehicle to deliver proper balance under hard braking. The entire system is sized for the applications, right down to the piston sizes in the calipers.

We will never use junk components, so no need to worry about that. There are different levels of products that can be used. What we have now is amongst the best.

A novice drive is unlikely to even know what they are looking for in terms of handling, unless it is glaring. There's an old adage in racing, which is very true - you need to improve the driver as well as the car. So, throwing the best possible parts on a car doesn't mean you'll be the fastest. The driver is a big part of the equation and the incremental benefit of the parts/setup may not show with a less experienced/skilled driver.

The other systems offer upgrades, we'll end up doing something similar, except they will be downgrades - LOL. I can tell you this, on some of the components we will never offer what is being used on other systems - especially shocks, because we have road race experience and would never consider them. We can get cost down on those, but we'll have something that works well - and will be based upon OUR specs and testing. I really want to make sure that our offering at any level can realistically be used on a track.

Our current offering drives like a very capable modern performance car. Smooth, predictable, responsive and no bump-steer. I want to preserve that as much as possible.

Let me put packages together, define the components and we'll do our best to define how they will perform. My guess is the other guys will start scrambling for better shocks, etc., if they haven't already.

One combination I think will be very interesting is our Level I front setup all dialed in, with our Level II rear. Everyone is focused on the front of the cars, but I'd be willing to guess that the wrong end of the car has been the priority in terms of actual handling. I think the T-Bar setup can be made to work better than a leaf sprung rear. As far as the rears go, everything else is even further behind us...but don't even know it, or why...

Just to be clear - Peter's Dart does not have any XV suspension parts on it. We don't have any XV suspension pieces for A-Body's at this time. The setup on his car is Peter's own combinations he put together.

Please don't confuse Peter's setup with XV product.

Posted By: RokketRide

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end - 11/07/07 02:40 AM

Quote:

Level II Rear would be easy to do on the A-body. Chassis stiffening is pretty easy as well - some is already started on that. Level II Front is where it's going to require some real time and money to do it right.

Quote:

One combination I think will be very interesting is our Level I front setup all dialed in, with our Level II rear. Everyone is focused on the front of the cars, but I'd be willing to guess that the wrong end of the car has been the priority in terms of actual handling. I think the T-Bar setup can be made to work better than a leaf sprung rear.

John,
I think putting these quotes together from two different posts could be a winning idea. I talked to Scott over at your shop once upon a time about A-Body stuff, he gave me the idea that something like 10 orders could get us there.

Is that the number? Maybe even a presale could get the ball rolling depending on interest.

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end ?'s - 11/07/07 02:49 AM

Quote:

I also wanted to ask John. How much will these "economical" versions affect the handling of the current Level II set-up?

Without testing, no way to know for sure. However, we have alot we've learned from all the testing, track time and street time we've done. So we're not just pulling parts and throwing them at it.

We know how shocks need to be valved, we know what spring rates to use, etc. Brakes, shocks and springs are easy places to get costs down, but still have good pieces that are matched to the application, not off the shelf. We can use cheaper springs, the rates are the same.

I can pretty much guarantee we have the best geometry (which we will not disclose) and contrary to what others may think our setup is by far the stiffest. On the rear nothing else is even remotely close. All the engineering will still be there and it will still be matched, dialed in components.

It's been a while since we reviewed our costs on all the other components as well. As we get volumes up, costs go down, so it's probably a good time to review that now as well.

We can defintely get the price down a noticeable amount going through the full exercise.

Posted By: pro451bee

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end ?'s - 11/07/07 02:50 AM

Thanks for all the great inside info , your products look fantastic and its great that someone has taken the time to re engineer a great American classic like our beloved Mopars . I know sometime in the near future some of your parts will be on my Bee !

Posted By: PHJ426

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end ?'s - 11/07/07 02:56 AM

John, Sorry about the line about Peter's Dart. Just shooting for some frame of reference.

One last question about the front suspension.

In a heavy car like mine 72 B body, if Im taking it to the road course say 3 or 4 times a season and doing some brackets at the local 1/4 mile a few times a year also with the rest of the time 75% on the street with it which set up would you run on the car?

Maybe just the Level I front and the Level II rear?

Add in a firmer feel steering box the tightest one they make. I know adding a rack would improve the feel of the car many times over vs the recirculating ball gear box.........

What are your thoughts on this?

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end - 11/07/07 02:56 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Level II Rear would be easy to do on the A-body. Chassis stiffening is pretty easy as well - some is already started on that. Level II Front is where it's going to require some real time and money to do it right.

Quote:

One combination I think will be very interesting is our Level I front setup all dialed in, with our Level II rear. Everyone is focused on the front of the cars, but I'd be willing to guess that the wrong end of the car has been the priority in terms of actual handling. I think the T-Bar setup can be made to work better than a leaf sprung rear.

John,
I think putting these quotes together from two different posts could be a winning idea. I talked to Scott over at your shop once upon a time about A-Body stuff, he gave me the idea that something like 10 orders could get us there.

Is that the number? Maybe even a presale could get the ball rolling depending on interest.

That's very interesting - I hadn't thought about it as a way to offer an A-body package. It's way easier than doing the full Level II front for the A. Level I front and Level II rear, all dialed in isn't such a big deal to do, nor is the chassis stiffening.

To do a full Level II for the A-body I definitely would be looking for pre-sales of like 10 kits.

Posted By: RTSE4ME

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end ?'s - 11/07/07 02:58 AM

Quote:

One combination I think will be very interesting is our Level I front setup all dialed in, with our Level II rear. Everyone is focused on the front of the cars, but I'd be willing to guess that the wrong end of the car has been the priority in terms of actual handling. I think the T-Bar setup can be made to work better than a leaf sprung rear. As far as the rears go, everything else is even further behind us...but don't even know it, or why...

That would be perfect setup for me since I have alredy spent a few dollars on the front. I could keep 75% of what already has been done...brakes,UCAs,steering box. The only rear upgrade I have is shocks.

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end ?'s - 11/07/07 03:18 AM

Quote:

John, Sorry about the line about Peter's Dart. Just shooting for some frame of reference.

One last question about the front suspension.

In a heavy car like mine 72 B body, if Im taking it to the road course say 3 or 4 times a season and doing some brackets at the local 1/4 mile a few times a year also with the rest of the time 75% on the street with it which set up would you run on the car?

Maybe just the Level I front and the Level II rear?

Add in a firmer feel steering box the tightest one they make. I know adding a rack would improve the feel of the car many times over vs the recirculating ball gear box.........

What are your thoughts on this?

Level I front / Level II rear will definitely work well. Best part is it's all done and you have an upgrade path going forward if you want to do full Level II later on.

We've mentioned previously that we were planning on doing a drag package. I won't go into the details, but we know we can do a derivation of our Level II rear that will work way better than Super Stock springs and a pinion snubber for drag racing. Could easily be used as double duty with some adjustment and easy swaps - drag and road race/handling.

We could demo it really quick, but want like a 10 second drag car to do this on with SS springs. Would much rather show it on a platform where getting more gains is harder.

Anyway, we have more tricks in our bag. This is one instance where it can be made to do double duty very well.

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end ?'s - 11/07/07 03:23 AM

Quote:

That would be perfect setup for me since I have alredy spent a few dollars on the front. I could keep 75% of what already has been done...brakes,UCAs,steering box. The only rear upgrade I have is shocks.

We'll definitely be offering the Level I setup either as individual pieces or in groups - i.e. T-bars and shocks, or Leafs and shocks. We just need to go through it and then offer it. We also hae more Level I related pieces we'll be offering shortly as well, some of which are relevant to this setup.

We'll probably try and do this all together, but Level I front Level II Rear, is an easy one.

Posted By: hemiallen

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end - 11/07/07 03:27 AM

I could donate my 74 challenger, pull the numbers 360 and drop the race 446 / 727 in it in a week ( at least my kid and his BIL could-LOL) from the cuda. Engine is a 13.3:1 eddy headed, 2" TTI that ran 10.80@123 with about 85% throttle blade opening ( pedal out of adjustment) and it should be right at 625 hp as we hoped......

Could trailer it down south to you, only about 8 hrs away from us, 2 tanks of gas and a few SL days...lol

I think with sticky's it could be right at 10.60's with a set of 3:91's from my shop...the charger it was in was probably 300 lbs less weight than the chally.

Allen

Posted By: MoparCar

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end ?'s - 11/07/07 03:52 AM

Yes!!! Very interested!!

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end - 11/07/07 03:59 AM

Quote:

I could donate my 74 challenger, pull the numbers 360 and drop the race 446 / 727 in it in a week ( at least my kid and his BIL could-LOL) from the cuda. Engine is a 13.3:1 eddy headed, 2" TTI that ran [Email]10.80@123[/Email] with about 85% throttle blade opening ( pedal out of adjustment) and it should be right at 625 hp as we hoped......

Could trailer it down south to you, only about 8 hrs away from us, 2 tanks of gas and a few SL days...lol

I think with sticky's it could be right at 10.60's with a set of 3:91's from my shop...the charger it was in was probably 300 lbs less weight than the chally.

Allen

How is your rear suspension setup now? Is the rear stock width or narrowed?

Basically we'd want to base line it with a SS spring setup, then one or two weeks later we'd go back with the new rear setup and dial it in. A few things need to happen in advance, but no big deal to get it together.

I need to see about timing, but getting it done before weather gets bad would be great.

We'd want to get a magazine out for this as well to cover it. We can coordinate that.

BTW, we finished up a dyno session at Westech today with Popular Hot Rodding for an article on our 5.7 HEMI carb kit. We ran it with stock cam and a bigger one w/ valvesprings from the upgraded kits. Power was up over our own dyno testing on both setups. They had us tear down the motor afterwards to make sure it was all stock otherwise - LOL. Yes it was! Hopefully this makes it into print soon, should be a good piece.

Posted By: Devil

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end ?'s - 11/07/07 04:05 AM

Quote:

hey "DEVIL"
you are only a couple hours away, and this will be a three day weekend. hop in your car and drive down here and we can take a ride in my demon with my rms. i bet you will quit bad mouthing them, and yes we will drive it "on road". heck i will even let you drive it unless it makes you neverous to drive a car with "off road" only parts. just an invite.

Damn right I won't drive a car that has an RMS setup. For off road use it seems perfect, well made, nicely done and thought out.

For a street driver, I can see the problems it can cause, I won't go near one.

When I get my car finished, it will handle quite well, and I know it won't fail, and all I have is upgraded suspension.

I'm just telling the truth, when the creator of the part even says not to use it for a street driver, I'd listen, he did build it.

Ryan

Posted By: Blakcharger440

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end ?'s - 11/07/07 04:05 AM

Quote:

Quote:

A direct comparison to the XV product is not possible because they're in two different realms. Bill made a good product that will work for 95% of us. XV went much farther than any of us really expected.
XV targeted the unlimited budget guys.
Bill is aiming at the real world guys.

Well, this thread has made me think we should see if we can't offer our Level II setup in a more economical configuration - to make it within reach of more people.

That ball has already been set in motion.

So, give me a few weeks and we'll be releasing some new versions with lower points of entry on the cost side. Will likely be a bit more than RMS setup, but much closer.

I'm making an assumption here, that I really should be asking you guys: If we get the XV Level II closer to RMS on the cost side, but still a bit more, will more of you be interested in buying it?

Right now we are offering it only one way - best of everything. We can definitely change some pieces out and try and push down some of our costs on others as well.

There are some other VERY interesting configurations we've looked at as well that we can do easily.

Let me know what you think.

Thanks,
John

I too have been following this thread and when I saw this post I am very interested in the different packages of a Level II system you might offer. I cant wait to hear and see what is on the horizon. It would be like Christmas all year if an affordable Level II would be offered....My 70 Charger RT would be grateful.

Posted By: feets

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end - 11/07/07 04:19 AM

does it have to be a package deal? I can understand required components such as springs when you get the shocks. What about other things?
Do you offer the stiffening pieces separately? What about offering the K frame and rack together and allowing the user to source the related mass-produced items such as the GM suspension parts and more cost effective shocks and springs?
Break it into bite size pieces that are much easier to digest.

Many people on this board have over $20,000 in their cars but not very many of them dropped that cash all at once.

Posted By: hemiallen

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end - 11/07/07 04:46 AM

Sorry, My mistake.

We are on opposite coasts, I thought you were LA based.

My car is all stock, but I do wish I had the coin to make a nice driver out of it.

The plan is to get the stock drivetrain back after a 15 year hibernation, then start upgrades to make it a driver on my 65 mi x 2 commute to the bay area. If the stock 360 isn't up to snuff I have a mild 440 / 727 to go into it with ported 906's and 1975 doug thorley chrome 2" headers from my cuda . Both of my cars sat garaged for many years, the cuda was 20 years in hibernation.

Back on topic. Hopefully you can get a local car and show us what we can accomplish with your suspension upgrades. They look very nice.

Congrats on the hemi build, and them thinking they needed to do the teardown...lol. My 05 5.7 truck astounds me when I need to outrun foreign-car commuters.

Allen

Posted By: 67autocross

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end - 11/07/07 05:03 AM

Quote:

Quote:

The only thing I see wrong with the VX system is they don't have a level 2 set up for the A body cars. As soon as they do thats what I'll be buying.

It's really hard to rationalize doing it for the A-Body cars. Originally we planned to, but right now it's not in the cards.

The reason is that we have launched products for A-Body cars and so far they really don't sell. Tilt columns - for E-Body I can't keep them in stock. B we sell plenty of as well. So far it hasn't been worth the time/money to have done the A body pieces.

Power window kits is another. I've lost track how many we've sold, primarily for E, but also alot of B-body. A-body again, hasn't been worth the effort at all.

Same with other pieces we have, numbers are many fold more for E and B, over the A.

We had put it out there long ago, if we got enough serious people for Level II A-Body, we'd do it. There's a small number who stood up, but not enough to warrant the resources in time and money. Time is our scarcest resource for getting things done. Some things are easy to do and we just knock them out. But bigger projects, we need to be confident the demand is there.

We've already started a Level II for older Mustangs - most of the work is already done. That'll be done before we have an A-Body product. From a business standpoint it's a bigger market and we have requests all day long for us to start building other kinds of cars, including Mustangs.

If there is enough demand, we'll do almost any platform - within reason. I'm sure you've noticed, we're launching many, many different products. That isn't going to stop. Lot's more in the pipeline and all to the same standards we do things to.

So if you really want us to do A-body, in this case it's a function of people stepping up and saying they are really serious - not just a post here, but get in touch with Peter and tell him you're in if we'll do it. He has a list, which has alot of dust on it and not enough names...

Level II Rear would be easy to do on the A-body. Chassis stiffening is pretty easy as well - some is already started on that. Level II Front is where it's going to require some real time and money to do it right.

John

Sounds fair, I just know that I could build a nice A body with a level II set up for the same cost as buying a stock E body.
If you do get the time I think you should at least do the Level I kits for the A body, I would think that you would be able to sell a good number of those.

Posted By: Bill_Reilly

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end - 11/07/07 05:26 AM

Ok, I'll bite. That's correct, I don't post much here anymore. My experience here has been that while most people ask questions, they already "know" what they're talking about and only want to read replies that reinforce what they believe. If anyone contradicts what they believe, it turns into a firestorm - I love chatting about suspension in general, and a lively debate is fun, but plain ole' arguing is not for me, so I avoid it.
I�ve been paying close attention for a long time now, and frankly, I�m awfully shocked that so many people are star-struck by that video, while never seeing the obvious.
The XV testing was an excellent educational video of what it takes to compete in pro-class, big sponsor racing. It also made clear that XV�s stiffening kit would be a great purchase � instead of blindly welding in reinforcements all over the place until the flexing is stopped, you can now buy a little bag of pieces that go right into the key areas � huge time saver.
But don�t confuse chassis stiffening items with suspension items. I could put all the same pieces together and call it an engineered kit � after years of working on these cars, most mopar builders can rattle off the problem areas without ever saying the words �engineered� or �proprietary�. Most of them already reinforce the same areas on their own. It�s still a huge time saver though, so I think the stiffening kit is a great idea for anyone that�s new to these cars.
The part that no one seems to notice is that a lot of the testing surrounded matching springs, shock valving, brake sizing, ect., to the car. That�s great stuff for THAT PARTICULAR car. On a daily basis, I deal with cars that appear identical, but vary in weight by more than 500lbs � sometimes with no explanation. Maybe one has a/c, a lot of dynamat and maybe some amps in the trunk, while the other does not. I had a 70 hemi cuda here this year that weighed in at 4208lbs, while another similar 70 hemi cuda only showed 3580lbs. My 69 iron-440 Dart weighs 3040lbs, but I have a buddy with a 340 Dart and it weighs 3425lbs. Knowing the engine and make of the car has no bearing at all on what it might weigh. But if you call XV, both hemi cudas will get the same components, which of course will only be a �match� to a car that weighs very close to the one XV tested. Or, if you don�t run the same tires and wheel sizes they tested on, you�ll also end up out of the �matched� category. Most of the pavement racers I know are pulling shocks apart if there�s a 50lb weight change. They also have different sets of shocks for different tracks, because at that level of perfection, small things make a big difference. If you run on a different piece of road than the track testing was done on, the settings will be off. You�re not going to know this because the parts are so much better than the generic stuff most of you are used to, it will be a massive improvement anyway. But I guess it�s ok, as long the TV show says they�re matched, it must be true.
As for the suspension side of things, again, attention must be paid to the underlying functions, not the million-dollar simulator it was parked on. Suspension must be very rugged to withstand daily street use or road race conditions � drag racing has simple requirements in the front, which I don�t really concentrate on � I have more fun turning the wheels. If I was an engine guy, drag racing would be my area of interest.
Anyway, suspension has to be durable, bind-free, the moving parts need to be flex-free, and the geometry has to be optimized.
Well, I felt there was a better, simpler way than doing all that cutting and welding, especially on cars that are getting ever-more rare. The shock tower design I came up with, along with the material sizes we used, provided all the structural integrity the suspension needed, without altering the car, weakening it, or putting any forces where they shouldn�t be. At that point, the frame satisfied all the design requirements, so there was no need to over-complicate it. Some people, actually most people these days, think that because something has an important job, it has to be complicated and analyzed by million-dollar computers. It only has to be analyzed by someone that knows what the end results should be. Computer simulations cut years off of development time, but since I�m about 6 years beyond the development stage, it�s just not a thought to me at this point. Yep, it looks like the XV frame is more rigid, but it doesn�t really matter. Once a part is strong enough to withstand it�s intended use, going further is silly. Sorry I had no TV show so everyone could watch me go through it all. I really didn�t think any of it was worth a DVD.

So now that there�s a frame that performs the proper functions, the next item to work out is geometry. There�s simple software to fine-tune all of that in an afternoon, although I admit it�s a lot of fun to play with, so even after 8 years, I�m still always trying different dimensions to see what will happen � the geometry is maxed out already though, so none of my play-time lately has warranted any real design changes. Pivot points and control arms are a simple matter to figure out � just sound principles and good materials, all of which are well-known throughout the industry. After a while, you�ll start to notice similar designs are used everywhere in all kinds of suspensions, street to race, GM, ford, mopar, imports � eventually, most companies end up with the same conclusions as to what works best. Recently, there�s been a shift towards the vette stuff, primarily because it�s inexpensive, easy to get, and frees up a lot of labor time. Of course they�re good parts also. Splined sway bars are also very cool � and very adjustable. If you�re on a track every weekend, and have the patience to really tune with different bars, it�s a useful device. If you�re not competing for blood, a regular bar works just great � the bent bars we use are sized specifically to provide a certain amount of roll resistance with our suspension design.. yea, I guess you could say it�s a �matched� component � to the suspension though, on an average-weight car � a 3000lb car is a bit stiff with the bar, while a 4000lb car could use a bit more. We tested lots of sizes on the road and in the software, and the current size was the best compromise between roll resistance and driver comfort. I could make more sizes, but the cost of them would go up, which is always a key priority. If you want to pay, I�d be happy to make up a specific bar thats closer to your need. No big deal.
Is the use of aluminum a great marketing ploy? Yep. Is it better? Nope. Using aluminum requires thicker sections, which puts the weight of the items similar to that of comparable strength steel � it�s popular with oem�s because it�s cheaper to manufacture than steel. Ditto for the all-popular chrome-moly stuff out there � after you add threaded ends, balljoints, shocks, rack, ect, the tubing itself is a tiny fraction of the overall weight � did you know a magnum system is only 5lbs lighter than the heavy-wall, mild steel alterktion? Just 5lbs lighter. I know this because I have a few of them here that we had to replace for customers � I wont say why we took them out, or how many a year I replace, but you�d be shocked. Speaking of, those people like to mention how the alterktion has very little wheel travel. In fact, we have 5.5� of wheel travel, which is 1� more than magnum. I can also state that Johns choice of shock length in order to have bumpstops is the silliest statement I�ve heard in a while. The bumpstops are a common item, and in race circles, they�re more used as additional �springs� at the limit of wheel travel, not so much as bottom-out protectors � I have a box full here if anyone needs them. Just an off the shelf shock length too I�m sure � 5� travel it looks to be, with the extended top. Doesn�t matter what the valving is � without corner weights the valving is still just a guess. Although the AFCO, er� XV shocks are a good quality piece. The Ididit, er..I mean XV columns look nice too, except you may not know this John, but a lot of people are telling me they�re far from a bolt-in. Perhaps you�re forgetting to tell people about the GM wiring plugs on them? Might want to revise the sales pitch a tad. Oh wait, there was that comment about the modern sealed, large diameter bearings. Come on now � how many guys are building these cars for a 200 lap race? And more importantly, if the corvette spindles had regular bearing sizes, would you have designed bigger bearings? I doubt it. It�s just the basic vette bearing that fits the off the shelf a-arms and spindles you�re using, nothing more.
Speaking of�about that initial bulleted sales pitch on the first page..
--- The first one, designed for street/handling � ditto
---- Next, impossible � �dialed in� is a silly statement � what did you dial? XV phone home.. LOL Although I can admit it�s a great term to use when you want to be impressive without actually saying anything.
---- Next one � track tested, street tested � ditto � in fact, some of my early systems have over 60,000 miles on the original parts, including bushings and rod ends � yep even the rod ends that some seem to think will explode in the presence of a public highway � it�s not the part, it�s the type of part that matters. The parts we make now are at least 300% better than the first ones we did, so durability hasn�t been a question in years.
---- mandrel bent frame � you mean mandrel bent crossbar�just one piece. Does non-mandrel bending ruin things? Nope. In fact, with square material, it creates stiffening ribs on the inside radius, creating a part that actually stronger than a comparable mandrel bent piece. Mandrel looks a little bit nicer, but it�s certainly nothing to have a party about.
--- 4-post rig for shocks/spring rates � see paragraph above.
--- sway bars � see above.
--- geometry � you could�ve saved A LOT of money if you used the $1000 software like everyone else and finished with a bit more road testing � same results, just takes a month or two longer, and you�d be able to use more technical terms than �dialed in��.
---- variable rate racks are cool, but not a very big deal. We only use MII manual racks. The power racks we use were designed for SCCA use in certain class vehicles and perform about as good as anything on the market right now. In fact, they work well enough that we often find ourselves at odds with 5 major producers of ford/chevy suspension systems, as we�re all needing large numbers of the same rack � if these racks were flawed in any way, every highway in the country would be littered with broken muscle cars by now.
--- chassis stiffening � different subject, see above.
--- bumpsteer adjustment � we use existing points to mount everything without any fab work after the sale, so we could easily design the system without bumpsteer and eliminate one more issue for the customer. If you want to add bumpsteer characteristics for track use, cut the welded part down and I�ll send a cool little spacer kit to adjust with. I don�t recommend it, but if that�s what you want�� speaking off, I can also adjust the height of the rack with certain bolt-on pieces I carry here, so if it�s bump adjustment you want, anything�s possible. Un-necessary, but possible.
----- Yep, killer shocks you have, no doubt. Valving, see above, but they�re good shocks no matter how you look at it. We�ve been using AFCO shocks for 5 years now as an optional item, the only problem was, until this year, they weren�t capable of the volumes we needed to use them exclusively, so we had to �settle� for QA1. Lucky you don�t sell much, or you would have been in a bind last year. Although, we dyno�d some QA1�s during the testing, and we all agreed they�re a great shock, especially for the street/handling crowd. Very strange actually � last year everyone on this board was scoffing at the thought of a $150 shock � now they�re demanding $400 ones. Weird people indeed.
--computer modeled brakes specifically for the intended load � what�s the load? If your car weighed 3400lbs, your special brakes with be under-par for the 4200lbs hemi cuda, and if they�re made for a 4200lb car, they�ll be way too ,much for a 3400lb car � right? I mean, if they were SPECIFICALLY designed for a particular application under a particular load, what particular weight car, with what particular coefficient of friction tires will they precisely work on as they�re intended? No one is mentioning a master cylinder in these conversations, which is the primary piece of any brake system � bore size will make or break a good system. Is a matched master part of the level 2 brake kit? Other than that perfect car, seems to me they�d only be as good as the �off the shelf� kits that I can already get and service. Front to rear bias is affected by so many variables it�s impossible to design that specifically for anything other the car in front of you on the piece of road it�s sitting on. Brake companies already design rule of thumb piston sizes front and rear, so I don�t have to worry about it � the big race cars you claim to duplicate use adjustable prop valves for brake bias, and so do the rest of us.

---3-link rear. Ya got me on that one. It�s the most effective suspension for a road racing type of car, but not because it�s bind-free � it�s because you can easily adjust the roll center and anti-squat characteristics. You�re a racer John, I KNOW you know this � why not say it? All this proprietary, top-secret stuff is getting weird. I�m choosing triangulated 4 bar stuff because it�s easy to install, well balanced with modern front suspension, and easy to adjust for alignment purposes. I have to design in the roll center and anti-squat dimensions, so that will be non adjustable, but as long as it�s designed correctly, all but the most competitive top-class cars will have very successful results with it�and they can keep the stock floor. My choice of not building a 3-link has nothing to do with lack of knowledge, and everything to do with what makes sense for home builders to work with.

I�ll also add that good steering cars were in style long before you popped up on the radar with your TV show, and long before I popped up 9 years ago(are you that arrogant to think you started some trend that we're all scrambling to follow?) � we�ve been building cars that steer for 8 years, over 1000 systems in use in 19 countries, tens of thousands of all-weather street miles, raced on nearly every track in America, not to mention a few tracks verified in Switzerland, Germany, France, Norway, Brazil and who knows where else. In fact, the pivot design on the lower control arms was a direct result of track testing by a Swiss racer. We also have free access to engineering departments at 6 different motor sports manufacturers in all aspects of vehicle design. We don�t have to make appointments and we don�t call camera crews � I can just call whenever I feel like going over design ideas, and all kinds of friendly engineers are happy to help. Full analysis of whatever runs through my head is just a fax away. No trumpets blowing, no walmart-sized show rooms, just plain ole parts that work. If that�s not enough proof, you guys will never have enough. As for my disclaimer of off-road use, it�s common across the aftermarket to protect against insurance lawsuits. Look at parts when you buy them � 90% of them state off-highway use in one form or another. If you run a red light in your super bee and kill somebody, everybody gets sued, from the company that made your sunglasses all the way down to the company that made your tires � unless the company has a disclaimer, and even at that it can be a very expensive journey. I�m not losing my house because some doofus talking on a cell phone didn�t see a red light under his sunvisor. If I lose Devil�s sale because of it, no problem � I�d rather keep my house than gain a sale.
ALSO NOTE � THERE IS NO DOT-CERT for chassis parts � NONE � only flexible brake lines. This is good to remember when you see some brake companies spouting about their DOT approved calipers. Pure scam, you know who you are.

And let me also add, John, that you might notice I had nothing to say up until this point � I kept my mouth shut for over a year about my opinions, assuming we�re all respectable people and could let the parts speak for themselves. I hate conflict, and avoid it whenever possible, which is why I rarely post on forums any more. You say you wont pick apart the other companies here, but today, 3 different people called me to order suspensions, and all three mentioned salespeople at XV going on about how flawed the RMS stuff is � YOUR salespeople, whoever they are, forced me to speak up. I got the 3 sales regardless, but it really ticked me off that I�ve kept silent about XV through all this dog and pony show baloney, and ended up in your rumor-mongering crosshairs anyway. Why does everyone have to create drama where there was none? So if any of the above irritates you, keep in mind I was perfectly happy staying quietly under the radar until your staff started making the rude remarks. And to be honest, I�m just not impressed at all that the whole car needs to be butchered up � people would be better served by a Morrison Max-G chassis for that kind of dough and fab work. If you have to cut the car to pieces to install a �kit�, it�s not a very well designed kit. You might as well add the full-frame benefits and go all the way.
Does the XV level 2 system work? I have no doubts it performs flawlessly, but there isn�t much impressive about the design over the RMS, except that you have to cut and weld for 50 or so hours, and I�m not so arrogant to think my parts are sprinkled with magic dust. If you can pop 30k to have a level 2 installed by someone qualified, go for it, but is all that necessary to run circles around a vette? Certainly not. Unless the car is identical to the tested car, the matched components are no better than similar quality shelf units. All else is so close to being equal, pitting one system against the other would result in similar results.
In the beginning, you stated clearly you had no interest in pitting your parts against others, and had no interest in talking about it because you�re gearing your systems for the high-buck cars, not the low-end customers we cater to, as if the budget minded crowd and the companies that sell parts to them aren�t good enough to even warrant your attention. Now it seems, you and your crew are getting quite aggressive trying to discredit us, since you couldn�t really prove you were better. I�m not paying the builders to stick with us, they�re choosing to. Hundreds of repeat customers, many on 3, 4, 5 or more systems now, just aren�t wrong. They all know about XV, spoke to people on the phone, looked at your information�.and called us to order another one. Not my choice � theirs - so what's with all the bad mouthing?

�Proprietary geometry LOL gimme a break. The pictures in this post alone are enough to figure out the curves in that system. There are fewer morons here than you think.

Posted By: Jim_Lusk

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end - 11/07/07 06:30 AM

Very well put Bill. I have followed this thread because I am a friend of Bill's, and there are few more honest folks in this hobby. I am not an owner of an AlterK and it is doubtful that I will ever own anybody's aftermarket suspension system due to the way I like to build a car.

I have seen Bill build a customer base by providing over the top customer service and being a perfectionist about quality. That is the reason his customers continue to order. It fits, it works, the first time.

Posted By: Blakcharger440

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end - 11/07/07 12:05 PM

Quote:

does it have to be a package deal? I can understand required components such as springs when you get the shocks. What about other things?
Do you offer the stiffening pieces separately? What about offering the K frame and rack together and allowing the user to source the related mass-produced items such as the GM suspension parts and more cost effective shocks and springs?
Break it into bite size pieces that are much easier to digest.

Many people on this board have over $20,000 in their cars but not very many of them dropped that cash all at once.

I was thinking the same thing. Alot more people could afford it that way and have it be more budget friendly.

Posted By: jcc

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end - 11/07/07 12:49 PM

A couple of comments of note worth mentioning in my book:

Quote:

" I love chatting about suspension in general, and a lively debate is fun"

" I�m awfully shocked that so many people are star-struck by that video, while never seeing the obvious."

"Some people, actually most people these days, think that because something has an important job, it has to be complicated and analyzed by million-dollar computers."

"Once a part is strong enough to withstand it�s intended use, going further is silly. "

"Is the use of aluminum a great marketing ploy? Yep. Is it better? Nope. Using aluminum requires thicker sections, which puts the weight of the items similar to that of comparable strength steel"

"very strange actually � last year everyone on this board was scoffing at the thought of a $150 shock � now they�re demanding $400 ones. Weird people indeed. "

"As for my disclaimer of off-road use, it�s common across the aftermarket to protect against insurance lawsuits."

" ALSO NOTE � THERE IS NO DOT-CERT for chassis parts � NONE � only flexible brake lines."

"but it really ticked me off that I�ve kept silent about XV through all this dog and pony show baloney, and ended up in your rumor-mongering crosshairs anyway. Why does everyone have to create drama where there was none? "

"I�m not so arrogant to think my parts are sprinkled with magic dust."
Quote:

Posted By: BergmanAutoCraft

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end - 11/07/07 02:25 PM

"They all know about XV, spoke to people on the phone, looked at your information�.and called us to order another one. Not my choice � theirs - so what's with all the bad mouthing?"

I, for one, have spoken to Bill many times before being with XV, on a variety of issues. He has spent the time on many occassions, more than I can say about many vendors.

However, to be accused of "bad mouthing" is upsetting. This is like a game of telephone, and is not appreciated. The environemnt XV provides is a professional one, where customers often spend lots of time asking questions in detail about our systems. We do our best to answer questions and call back customers when we do not have an answer. In fact, many customers are surprised that we actually call them many times, when they inquire through our site.We are never "rushed" off the phones to make a sale either.

The fact that XV has taken the time and spent the money to create a brand is something no one has done in terms of the Mopar aftermarket, no need for bashing this fact either. We are proud of our product and realize it is not for everyone, which is why there is something called competition.

In the end, the customer wins.

Posted By: Skeptic

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end - 11/07/07 02:50 PM

Thank you Bill.

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end - 11/07/07 03:24 PM

Quote:

Ok, I'll bite. That's correct, I don't post much here anymore. My experience here has been that while most people ask questions, they already "know" what they're talking about and only want to read replies that reinforce what they believe. If anyone contradicts what they believe, it turns into a firestorm - I love chatting about suspension in general, and a lively debate is fun, but plain ole' arguing is not for me, so I avoid it.

Truncated your post...

Bill,

I don't like to argue either and have not posted about our Level II here in over a year. Perhaps I should have kept more closer to my chest and disclosed less. While you obviously are upset by this thread, I've been taken over the coals here previously and purposely not posted about our setup here at all, largely by customers of yours.

Your opinion and mine will obviously be different and I won't try and do a tit-for-tat point by point debate here, but I will make a few comments.

You mention the average guy. Well, the average guy doesn't have the time or the ability to dial in his setup and that is why we defined specific packages. If we're talking about real racers, yes they are a whole other breed in terms of what they do. However, I haven't come across any real hardcore racers running these cars. We've talked to many who run other platforms and thought about building a classic Mopar. For these guys we can offer any spring rate they want and shocks are already adjustable. For the average guy, I'm very comfortable offering packages that are setup already.

Reality is there is HUGE value in having matched components, tested to work together as a complete package - FRONT AND REAR. The typical guy has a hodge podge of parts from multiple vendors that bear no relation with one another.

It's easy to chalk it all up to hype, that's what was done here before: 'It's all hype, who needs the technology, no benefit in using engineers that have done this for F1, IRL, the OE's, etc., etc.'. If I thought your stuff was so great I wouldn't have spent the time or money to do what we did. We set out primarily to build cars. I wouldn't have wasted $1 if I thought your setup would get us where we wanted to be. I also have alot of seat time open road racing at over 200 MPH and I can tell you there's no way I'd risk my butt with your setup doing that - and that's the truth.

You're coming at this like you have all the answers, but I have to wonder if all these racers are tuning your setup so precisely, how is it they are all running leaf springs on the thousand plus setups you have out there. These are road racers?

All those tools are worthless? Yeah I guess that's why the top race teams use them and the OE's use them for their halo cars. But, you know everything about what can be done on a four post rig or what OE level suspension design software can do. Think it was all for show - easy to say that when you haven't seen it first hand or used it. Ask Rick Ehrenberg, we took him there so he could see first hand what it was and how it worked.

Chassis stiffening? If everyone had all the answers forever and knew, why hadn't anyone offered anything other than subs before? Testing was clearly a waste of time there on our part, to actually know what worked and what didn't - yeah we tried more than one combination. We saw crazy dash/cowl shake on four post rig that disappeared completely after the stiffening was done. Yeah all of this was known forever. This is reserved for racers? - it's needed on the street!

Stiffer K doesn't matter?

I wrote and deleted much as I don't want to go back and forth, on shocks, weld-in vs bolt in, brakes-LOL, rear design, bump-stops, etc., etc.

Steering columns - changing a connector is harder than fabricating brackets? We've never told anyone the connector would plug right in. We have connectors you can plug the existing wires into. The alternatives have no key on column for apps that need them and you need to fabricate all the brackets. Wiring - come on...

Alot of this stuff comes from big hassles we have building cars. Columns were a major PITA, especially with our Level II as there isn't adequate support on the bottom of the columns for a rack - you've addressed that since day one right? So we had columns made up to our spec that ARE bolt in and have roller bearings in the bottom of the column. Wiring connector? That would be a great way to drive the price up on them and how many combinations would we need to support.

Bill, say whatever you want, no way, no how is your setup at the level of ours. It's easy to chalk up all that we did as smoke and mirrors. As far as saying we never cared about the average guy, we have a Level I suspension that fits anyone's budget and that we'll soon offer as components. You're saying our attitude was that low buck didn't warrant our attention - Level I was targeted squarely at that market. However, to have a very big dollar setup and try to sell it to the guy on a budget would have been incredibly stupid - it's being realistic, rather than saying anyone is worthy or not. You think we just did a carb'd 5.7 HEMI kit for guys with unlimited budgets?

You've said it yourself, your setup is targeted to "the low-end customers we cater to". Well we've targeted that as well as real high end. I think what you're not willing to acknowledge and others here aren't fully aware of, is there are different levels of quality at the component level. You can tell me all day long Mustang II stuff is fine, but it has issues; maybe you aren't aware of them. It was never on our list of possible components to use.

If you're telling me that you can do the same thing as guys who do work for F1, ALMS, NASCAR, IRL, the OE's, campaigned cars at the 24 hours of LeMans, designed for Ford complete GrandAm (which won the championships) and complete GTP cars, then I think you need a reality check. No value in us benefitting from that at all? I still don't see how you address the handling of a car just by looking at one end of the vehicle - not like the back of these cars was something great to begin with.

You ARE ABSOLUTELY CORRECT that for many applications it may not make a difference for some of this stuff. But that does not mean it is the same and it does not mean it can perform at the same levels, epecially on a (road) race track. Does everyone need that, obviously not. It also doesn't mean that there are'nt people who do want it and do recognize differences.

Bill, irrespective of the foregoing I apologize if you think I stepped over the line and I have held back wildly on this response. I'll speak to my people here about what they communicate to people inquiring. However, we're not going to say it's just as good or there aren't material differences. You have happy customers and there is a place for your product, which is obviously much better than the MF setup. I've never said otherwise - but I didn', and wouldn't, buy it for what I was looking to do. Today the detemining factors are what people plan on doing with the car and their budget. Budget we'll start addressing now, but I know we'll largely still be more than you on the cost side because of the pieces we use. People want a more cost effective version of our stuff, happy to do what I can to deliver it.

You can say whatever you want, but no one has brought the level of product to this market segment that we have, and will continue to do. We've launched more new products in the past year and a half for Mopars than anyone, and that isn't ending any time soon either as there are always multiple projects going on here. If we're able to make more of our higher end products within the reach of more people and offer more options, I'm happy to do it, not what you want to hear, but it's clear that many want us to and my goal is to meet the needs of markets as best we can.

Again, sorry if you think I went too far, but there's also alot we have done with this and very little not for specific reasons.

Posted By: Keith C

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end - 11/07/07 05:39 PM

Bill you seem like a class act. Hats off to you!!

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end - 11/07/07 05:59 PM

Quote:

does it have to be a package deal? I can understand required components such as springs when you get the shocks. What about other things?
Do you offer the stiffening pieces separately? What about offering the K frame and rack together and allowing the user to source the related mass-produced items such as the GM suspension parts and more cost effective shocks and springs?
Break it into bite size pieces that are much easier to digest.

Many people on this board have over $20,000 in their cars but not very many of them dropped that cash all at once.

Chassis stiffening has always been available as individual pieces.

Some of the other pieces can create problems, i.e. shocks not being correct size, the mounts not right, etc. I can see alot of headaches we would have to support on that. Brakes are already separate.

We'll get creative as we go through this - You might say I've been inspired to make it more competitively priced. Some of it is really easy to get the price down on. Others don't make sense, but would make it cheaper. We still have more pieces on the way that'll fit anyone's budget and I'm not aware anyone's ever offered.

Posted By: feets

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end - 11/07/07 10:07 PM

You've spoken about your brake setup being designed for the car.
What's wrong with what I've done? I nabbed the brake hardware off a high end high performance car that is heavier than the hot rod. My thinking was that Mercedes wasn't going to flake out on the brakes used on $150,000+ cars. It had to be decent stuff. They spent FAR more money and time figuring out the brakes than what some independant shop would have done.

The hardware definately does the job. I haven't been able to cook the brakes on this setup and it's not for lack of trying.
The car hasn't been on a road course yet but I'm not worried about the brakes fading or failing.

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end - 11/07/07 11:04 PM

Quote:

You've spoken about your brake setup being designed for the car.
What's wrong with what I've done? I nabbed the brake hardware off a high end high performance car that is heavier than the hot rod. My thinking was that Mercedes wasn't going to flake out on the brakes used on $150,000+ cars. It had to be decent stuff. They spent FAR more money and time figuring out the brakes than what some independant shop would have done.

The hardware definately does the job. I haven't been able to cook the brakes on this setup and it's not for lack of trying.
The car hasn't been on a road course yet but I'm not worried about the brakes fading or failing.

The company that does these for us ran models to design the entire system (including master cylinder) for the cars. They have their own proprietary models to optimize the balance of the vehicle under hard braking. They do this by sizing the entire setup, including piston size in the calipers and it does work as they intended.

When I first met with them I asked about balance with the proportioning valve and they told me that the best way was to design the balance into the system itself for a platform.

So our setup was designed for our platforms, not off the shelf, and does work really well.

Their stuff is really nice, but probably more than is needed for many applications. However, it is race winning stuff in actual competition, on BMW's and the like.

We can easily offer something for less money that will work well. But we'll still have the over the top stuff for those that want it.

Posted By: DJVCuda

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end - 11/08/07 12:08 AM

Quote:

Bill, irrespective of the foregoing I apologize if you think I stepped over the line and I have held back wildly on this response.

Bill IS a class act...

your response in a nutshell is why you have a hard time on this site, its your attitude, it has not changed since you got here and obviously will never change. Bill on the other hand lets his parts do the talking with MOPAR, Delaney, Strope and, Foose all using his product...

is he out there with a bugle like you? no

sometimes it what you DO... not what you SAY...
know what I mean?

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end - 11/08/07 02:05 AM

Quote:

Bill IS a class act...

your response in a nutshell is why you have a hard time on this site, its your attitude, it has not changed since you got here and obviously will never change. Bill on the other hand lets his parts do the talking with MOPAR, Delaney, Strope and, Foose all using his product...

is he out there with a bugle like you? no

sometimes it what you DO... not what you SAY...
know what I mean?

So we shouldn't tell anyone what we do?

I haven't posted on this product for over a year here - purposely. Generally I put new product announcements out and answer questions as I'm able to. We shouldn't tell people about any new products? Or track events we organize, or share video of things that we've done? Or open house events we do?

Maybe it doesn't interest you, but I think others may have a slightly different opinion and all of those are things we do. And at this point there are quite a few things we've done.

I won't beat a dead horse, but look what we've accomplished in basically a year and a half. We've been doing exactly what you suggest, getting stuff done, lots of things on many fronts - and not all over the top stuff either. That is all doing, not saying. It's also inevitable not everyone is going to be happy about that.

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end - 11/08/07 03:23 AM

some people just aren't happy unless EVERYBODY is patting them on the back??

Posted By: Bones

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end - 11/08/07 07:23 AM

Quote:

Quote:

The only thing I see wrong with the VX system is they don't have a level 2 set up for the A body cars. As soon as they do thats what I'll be buying.

It's really hard to rationalize doing it for the A-Body cars. Originally we planned to, but right now it's not in the cards.

The reason is that we have launched products for A-Body cars and so far they really don't sell. Tilt columns - for E-Body I can't keep them in stock. B we sell plenty of as well. So far it hasn't been worth the time/money to have done the A body pieces.

Power window kits is another. I've lost track how many we've sold, primarily for E, but also alot of B-body. A-body again, hasn't been worth the effort at all.

Same with other pieces we have, numbers are many fold more for E and B, over the A.

We had put it out there long ago, if we got enough serious people for Level II A-Body, we'd do it. There's a small number who stood up, but not enough to warrant the resources in time and money. Time is our scarcest resource for getting things done. Some things are easy to do and we just knock them out. But bigger projects, we need to be confident the demand is there.

We've already started a Level II for older Mustangs - most of the work is already done. That'll be done before we have an A-Body product. From a business standpoint it's a bigger market and we have requests all day long for us to start building other kinds of cars, including Mustangs.

If there is enough demand, we'll do almost any platform - within reason. I'm sure you've noticed, we're launching many, many different products. That isn't going to stop. Lot's more in the pipeline and all to the same standards we do things to.

So if you really want us to do A-body, in this case it's a function of people stepping up and saying they are really serious - not just a post here, but get in touch with Peter and tell him you're in if we'll do it. He has a list, which has alot of dust on it and not enough names...

Level II Rear would be easy to do on the A-body. Chassis stiffening is pretty easy as well - some is already started on that. Level II Front is where it's going to require some real time and money to do it right.

John

John, reading your reply to the question of offering products for A-bodies tells me that you really don't understand this segment of the Mopar hobby. For the most part, A-body guys don't care about tilt columns and power windows, we care about performance. Basing your decision to make hardcore suspension parts for A-body mopars on how many tilt columns you sell is just silly.

Take a look at the Race Only section of the forums and you will see that the majority of cars being used for drag racing are A-bodies. The same goes for road racing. Most of the "handling" cars I've seen on the forums and in the mags have been Darts, Valiants, and A-body Cudas. They were the lightest cars that Mopar made and therefore lend themselves well to being raced out. Something else you're probably not thinking about is how many more A-bodies were produced and how much less rare they are than the B and E bodies. Because they are not as scarce and cost less money to obtain, people are much more willing to cut them up and turn them into race cars. By ignoring the A-body crowd you are missing out on the single biggest segment of the mopar market. I don't think you would have any problem selling 10 kits if you manufactured them, in fact, I think you would have trouble keeping them in stock. Especially if you got the prices down a little bit like you were talking about.

I look forward to seeing what your company has in store for the future.

Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end - 11/08/07 08:48 AM

This is getting out of hand and it is ridiculous. Businesses� interacting about their products is a growing problem here on Moparts.

If a business needs to comment on their product on a web board they should be objective and to the point as possible. They should respect their competitors and talk about their products only. I don�t want to see a debate (catfight) between businesses on Moparts.

If this get worse this place will just be a wh@re-fest, with disguised shill members here to pump products services. It sort of happening now, just very thinly veiled. Not including any of the businesses mentioned in this post.

When any business comes on here implying or saying their product is the best, most of the time there is a backlash with pot shots. Just like what John B is trying to defend. It really may be the best, but that just puts a product on the dart board. Best for whom, and for what? There is not just one solution for everyone. State your objective facts with an open mind and let the customers decide.

I come onto a web group to look for unbiased opinions of products, ideas, methods, techniques, etc. It�s my job to decipher what opinions are valid. Many are not valid, just look at this thread. I�m looking for the customers of businesses too. I�m not looking for owners of the businesses. I don�t mind an owner clarification or comment. But debating with businesses about their competitor�s products is not why most people are here.

Posted By: jcc

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end - 11/08/07 10:36 AM

I applaud your goals, but I think you are setting the standard maybe a little high. I for one also find a catfight a little unpleaseant. But who other then the owners/main players know the intricate details of their design decisions of their products? In a competitive market they have to early on design against or beyond their competitors product. Sharing how their product compares and maybe how they decided on their solutions, helps me decide which product also might meet my needs best. Critiqing their competitors products is of course taken wih a grain of salt, but I find it very useful, and one more thing to consider. Both have a lot of passon for what they are trying to achieve, emotions play a part, they are civil for the most part, and it gives them a chance to get things off their chest, and likely inspire both to go back to the drawing board to get a leg up on the competition, and we all win. I have less respect for those manufactures who choose not to even admit there are other products in the market with any advantges over their product. As long as it stays civil, everybody gets enlightened.

Posted By: DualQuad68

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end - 11/08/07 12:11 PM

Quote:

Quote:

One thing that bothers me about the RMS system is that it removes some of the torsional strength from the front of the car.
Look at the unit off the car. There's only one little crossmember. If you grab the unit by the mounting points it would twist much easier than the stock K.
It removes the torsional load from the T-bars but the car is stuck relying on the flimsy core support to keep it from becoming a pretzel.

The XV unit has the second cross bar that helps prevent flex in the K. It's still going to move around on it's own but once installed it would lead to a much stiffer chassis.

Adding the other pieces to stiffen the vehicle would really help either setup but if you're going that far you wouldn't consider the RMS in the first place.

I don't have any experience with either setup but understanding physics and knowing how to break stuff makes me lean more towards the better designed (and painfully expensive) XV.

If you're going to go drag racing, RMS has got the better looking product assuming you've already got a cage with forward bars.

I dunno. That "little crossmember" of the RMS is pretty dang beefy. Compare that to the flimsy, sheet metal torsion bar x-member that's still there! It's not like you cut it out.

The RMS is super stiff compared to the factory K. Latter may be heavier, but not as stiff.

Folks have been on HR Power Tours w/the RMS and never heard of any issues.

would it be possible to maybe weld in a rear crossmember like in the XV kit has?? would it get in the way of anything, or would it even be necessary?? I know the Alter K has proven that it can hold up to hard driving, but it does look like it would be a lot stiffer. a little over engineering never hurt anybody. i do like the XV kits, but im not about to start welding stuff, they dont make an A body kit, and if they did, I probably couldnt afford it anyway. the magnum force stuff looks like junk. The alter K is the only real option for an A Body, and its a pretty damn good one. Bill, are you offering the SRT brake kits yet?? Will SRT calipers be used as well??

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end - 11/08/07 01:43 PM

Quote:

This is getting out of hand and it is ridiculous. Businesses� interacting about their products is a growing problem here on Moparts.

If a business needs to comment on their product on a web board they should be objective and to the point as possible. They should respect their competitors and talk about their products only. I don�t want to see a debate (catfight) between businesses on Moparts.

If this get worse this place will just be a [Edited by Moparts - Keep it clean]-fest, with disguised shill members here to pump products services. It sort of happening now, just very thinly veiled. Not including any of the businesses mentioned in this post.

When any business comes on here implying or saying their product is the best, most of the time there is a backlash with pot shots. Just like what John B is trying to defend. It really may be the best, but that just puts a product on the dart board. Best for whom, and for what? There is not just one solution for everyone. State your objective facts with an open mind and let the customers decide.

I come onto a web group to look for unbiased opinions of products, ideas, methods, techniques, etc. It�s my job to decipher what opinions are valid. Many are not valid, just look at this thread. I�m looking for the customers of businesses too. I�m not looking for owners of the businesses. I don�t mind an owner clarification or comment. But debating with businesses about their competitor�s products is not why most people are here.

I apologize as I let it slip into exactly what I've avoided since day one. Won't happen again or any more in this instance.

And you are right on the money, many people have different needs and objectives, so one size never fits all.

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end - 11/08/07 01:50 PM

Quote:

John, reading your reply to the question of offering products for A-bodies tells me that you really don't understand this segment of the Mopar hobby. For the most part, A-body guys don't care about tilt columns and power windows, we care about performance. Basing your decision to make hardcore suspension parts for A-body mopars on how many tilt columns you sell is just silly.

Take a look at the Race Only section of the forums and you will see that the majority of cars being used for drag racing are A-bodies. The same goes for road racing. Most of the "handling" cars I've seen on the forums and in the mags have been Darts, Valiants, and A-body Cudas. They were the lightest cars that Mopar made and therefore lend themselves well to being raced out. Something else you're probably not thinking about is how many more A-bodies were produced and how much less rare they are than the B and E bodies. Because they are not as scarce and cost less money to obtain, people are much more willing to cut them up and turn them into race cars. By ignoring the A-body crowd you are missing out on the single biggest segment of the mopar market. I don't think you would have any problem selling 10 kits if you manufactured them, in fact, I think you would have trouble keeping them in stock. Especially if you got the prices down a little bit like you were talking about.

I look forward to seeing what your company has in store for the future.

That's very interesting, I definitely hadn't thought about it in that way.

Obviously the cars are the lightest and the A's are the stiffest to begin with. FWIW, the E's are the the one's that need the most help with regard to stiffening.

That's very helpful.

Posted By: feets

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end - 11/08/07 02:01 PM

Next time you want to introduce a new product or discuss improvements to old ones, do us a favor.
Leave the trumpets, fanfare, red carpet, and crowns at home. You having members of the media and other high-falutin' muckety-mucks present doesn't help our cars for any faster or hendle better.

When you start dropping names, you start dropping clients. It gives the impression that you're trying to be a person of great importance and above the masses. That's far from attractive. It's not enthusiastic. It's "look what I'm doing that you can't do."
It smacks of the issues we had with BigKahuna and his little man turned big man ego.

I'm sure you're got good products but don't hurt anything trying to pat yourself on the back.

No fussin, just friendly advice.

Posted By: dgarner

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end - 11/08/07 03:01 PM

With all the engineering that went into the XV suspension no one knows what the parts weight or how much the total weight of the car increases with the suspension and additional bracing? This seems like vital information when trying to determine the best solution for a particular use.

My take is that they are both great products but XV belongs at SEMA and the Alterkation belongs at PRI. :-)

Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end - 11/08/07 05:08 PM

Quote:

I apologize as I let it slip into exactly what I've avoided since day one. Won't happen again or any more in this instance.

And you are right on the money, many people have different needs and objectives, so one size never fits all.

I realize it's fustrating. The people inquiring do not know what they want or have any defined goal in mind. The needs and objectives are all over the place.

But worse off, you have people trying to give advice that have totally different needs and objectives than people asking the questions.

The handling goals are harder to pinpoint than: "I want to run 11's in the quarter," or "I want to take 50 lbs off the front of my car," or "I want to make 450 hp."

We have guys that have Moroso front runners on their cars trying to relate how "great" their particular optioned system is to someone that wants to hit some serious road course track days. That's not revalant for handling comparisons. But it is revalant for installation, fitment, durability.

Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end - 11/08/07 05:43 PM

Quote:

With all the engineering that went into the XV suspension no one knows what the parts weight or how much the total weight of the car increases with the suspension and additional bracing? This seems like vital information when trying to determine the best solution for a particular use.

Stiffening the car for the level of handling is more important than the weight added. After that, start reducing weight. The difference in weight would be negated by the difference in driver weights.

I'm sure they could weigh the parts. Probably allready know them for shipping reasons. But why post the weights? So someone can make misguided comments on the weights??

Quote:

My take is that they are both great products but XV belongs at SEMA and the Alterkation belongs at PRI. :-)

For what applications? Drag, Road Racing, Circle Track??

Neither would be at PRI for Road Racing or Circle Track. They don't fit competitively into any popular sactioning bodies rules. And even if there are some remote classes that fit these products, why would have a booth at PRI to try to find those 4-5 total potential customers in North America.

Posted By: JF_Moparts

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end - 11/08/07 07:55 PM

autoxcuda wrote:

Quote:

This is getting out of hand and it is ridiculous. Businesses� interacting about their products is a growing problem here on Moparts.

If a business needs to comment on their product on a web board they should be objective and to the point as possible. They should respect their competitors and talk about their products only. I don�t want to see a debate (catfight) between businesses on Moparts.

If this get worse this place will just be a [Edited by Moparts - Keep it clean]-fest, with disguised shill members here to pump products services. It sort of happening now, just very thinly veiled. Not including any of the businesses mentioned in this post.

When any business comes on here implying or saying their product is the best, most of the time there is a backlash with pot shots. Just like what John B is trying to defend. It really may be the best, but that just puts a product on the dart board. Best for whom, and for what? There is not just one solution for everyone. State your objective facts with an open mind and let the customers decide.

I come onto a web group to look for unbiased opinions of products, ideas, methods, techniques, etc. It�s my job to decipher what opinions are valid. Many are not valid, just look at this thread. I�m looking for the customers of businesses too. I�m not looking for owners of the businesses. I don�t mind an owner clarification or comment. But debating with businesses about their competitor�s products is not why most people are here.

You hit it right on the head. Well said.

I would just like to add that I'm happy to see XV, RMS, and MF in the marketplace offering their products. All their hard work eventually benefits us Mopar owners. Hopefully there will be a bit more friendly competition in the future.

- Jim

Posted By: quick77rt

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end - 11/08/07 08:10 PM

I spoke to Bill today, THANKS Bill. Specked out a Altk setup for my aspen, was shocked they could do it. I had a cocky reply ready for the sorry, no f-body stuff, but to my surprise he said no problem.

Im thrilled to death and I didnt read all this post until now.....however so far Bill is the only one to step up with the f-body parts.

Posted By: WilliamHall

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end - 11/09/07 01:26 AM

I think both DQHemi and Bill have conducted themselves appropriately. I don't know much about suspension parts but like engines you can pretty much guess that 95% of it has been solved. Cutting edge though is that 5%. How do you get that 5%. You do it much the same way good engine builders do, (dyno) testing, testing, testing. In that testing you find out things that relatively few people know. To me its pretty obvious XV has the edge on actual testing. You can even see it in the results. How many would have known that the bottom radiator support is a weak link in stiffening as opposed to the upper radiator support. I doubt Bill would have come up with this observation. Of course that doesnt mean Bill's product cant produce a fine road race machine, in much the same way it doesnt mean I cant produce a 700hp engine without the help of Fast68Plymouth or 1FastMopar, since 95% of engine building is well known and written about. You want value go with Bill's system. You want the finest go with XV's.

I will add Bill's system has been out there longer and he has shown a willingness to improve on it, so some bonus points need to be added there since it is a form of testing.

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end - 11/09/07 01:35 PM

Would you guys like me to go through our setup in detail? What we did, why, how, what we found, how we addressed, etc.?

For example, here's our front sawy bar mount. There's a reason we did it this way:

It'll take me several days to do this in chunks and I'll have to dig up more pictures than have probably even been out there before. If I did I'd also like to edit some video that shows things a bit more clearly than just verbally (or rather in writing).

I can touch on some of the Level I as well, as there is some relevance.

I won't do any comparisons to anything else, or comment on any other setups, just straight facts what we did, how we did it, why we did it, what components we use, what we found, how we addressed what we found, etc. I won't share everything, but there's lots that is either fragmented here and there, or we haven't shared before. Some aspects are too proprietary, but I will try and disclose as much as I feel I can.

I can also cover aspects of install as well so you know what is, and what's not, involved.

You can draw your own conclusions about it all, I'll just lay it out and walk you through it. I may ask some questions along the way with regard to places we could cut cost and whether you consider the difference important or not.

Let me know and I will start.

Posted By: Moparmatty

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end - 11/09/07 01:39 PM

I'm interested in the reading John. Please continue.

Posted By: 67autocross

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end - 11/09/07 03:30 PM

Great post Bones, you hit the nail on the head, I don't mind spending 30-40 grand on mods to a car but if you have to start with a $20000 rusty E body to begin with I'll have a $60000 car that will sit in the garage because its getting to a point where it's worth to much to drive.(HARD)

John I think it's great what your doing with these old cars and if you do get around to doing the A-body level II system I'll be the first in line to pick one up. Do you need a car for a test mule? I know of a guy with a nice 67 dart.....

Quote:

Quote:

John, reading your reply to the question of offering products for A-bodies tells me that you really don't understand this segment of the Mopar hobby. For the most part, A-body guys don't care about tilt columns and power windows, we care about performance. Basing your decision to make hardcore suspension parts for A-body mopars on how many tilt columns you sell is just silly.

Take a look at the Race Only section of the forums and you will see that the majority of cars being used for drag racing are A-bodies. The same goes for road racing. Most of the "handling" cars I've seen on the forums and in the mags have been Darts, Valiants, and A-body Cudas. They were the lightest cars that Mopar made and therefore lend themselves well to being raced out. Something else you're probably not thinking about is how many more A-bodies were produced and how much less rare they are than the B and E bodies. Because they are not as scarce and cost less money to obtain, people are much more willing to cut them up and turn them into race cars. By ignoring the A-body crowd you are missing out on the single biggest segment of the mopar market. I don't think you would have any problem selling 10 kits if you manufactured them, in fact, I think you would have trouble keeping them in stock. Especially if you got the prices down a little bit like you were talking about.

I look forward to seeing what your company has in store for the future.

That's very interesting, I definitely hadn't thought about it in that way.

Obviously the cars are the lightest and the A's are the stiffest to begin with. FWIW, the E's are the the one's that need the most help with regard to stiffening.

That's very helpful.

Posted By: JF_Moparts

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end - 11/09/07 07:09 PM

Quote:

Would you guys like me to go through our setup in detail? What we did, why, how, what we found, how we addressed, etc.?

<snip>

I can also cover aspects of install as well so you know what is, and what's not, involved.

You can draw your own conclusions about it all, I'll just lay it out and walk you through it. I may ask some questions along the way with regard to places we could cut cost and whether you consider the difference important or not.

Let me know and I will start.

John,

Absolutely! I'm interesting in listening to whatever you are able to share.

I've been working on my 1971 Satellite's suspension from back in the days when California Suspension (remember them?) was one of the few vendors offering high performance parts. For years my only guides were "Super Street Mopar" (still an excellent book) and "How to Make Your Car Handle". In 89 I used the Corvette ZR-1 as a template and tried to get my Satellite as close to that as possible, in spring rate, weight, CG, polar moment, tire patch, and weight ratio. Of course, I never got quite there, and there were tons of things I overlooked.

I don't know about anyone else, but lots of people thought I was crazy to waste time getting my car to do anything more than go in a straight line. Their attitude was that my car was built for the dragstrip. My attitude was to improve the car's weaknesses rather than further its strengths. Now it seems the tide has turned a little bit and there's finally some respect for (and investment in) getting these cars to handle. Great.

Let's open the XV vault!

- Jim

ps - Congrats on the nice write up in Car & Driver, John. I was hoping the XV Challenger would have pulled more than a .90, though. Were there any extenuating circumstances?

Posted By: Moparmatty

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end - 11/09/07 07:25 PM

I'm also curious about the .90g number. I think I read on XV's site yesterday that Level one is good for 1.0g.

Posted By: BcudaChris

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end - 11/09/07 07:42 PM

Yeah, their comparison to a late model Camaro or Mustang made me think they don't buy the XV "Building modern Supercars from classic Muscle Cars" tag line.

My guess is because the product is not only American, but old American and they didn't think it was worth getting a hotshoe to drive...

Nevermind the comparison to a 37 yr old T/A. Albiet a sub 30K mi T/A, but the suspension bushings are about as firm as a Notell Motel mattress and the engine is likely tired (sunk exhaust valve seats) from burning unleaded gas for most of its life. The carb probably needs a rebuild and some tuning as well as the distributor.

Car and Driver is the New York Times of automotive journalism...

I wouldn't mind seeing Bill doing a write up on the evolution of his products as well...

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end - 11/10/07 02:25 AM

My name is Jason and I work at Magnumforce, many of you have most likely spoken with me if you have called here. I used to do a lot of posting and responses on here. This is absolutely insane. All three companies have made very good improvements on the original suspensions and are very different. If you can believe it, I have even recommended the RMS system to customers that needed something different than what we offer for various reasons. I do not yet have enough exposure to the XV system to determine its merits/downfalls. There are a few questions that come to mind... The point is that RMS and Magnumforce spend time building Mopars, fabricating products and helping people via email and phone. We should be spending more time actually driving/racing our cars instead of sittting on the side-line arguing over who is the best. No direct comparisons have been made to date because no two cars (or most importantly drivers) are the same. If you have the time to be on this website, responding to every cheap shot that people take at you then obviously people are paying too much for your products or else you would be losing a lot of time/money responding. The Mopar community is special because we do not have dime-a-dozen cars or a million options for parts. Cool Mopars are built by people that love Mopars and are willing to try new things to get what they want. Cool Mopars are NOT built by people that argue on forums all day about who says what. We should all try to be more accepting of new things instead of trying to monopolize the market. The more we all strive to make better products, the better our cars become. If one company dominates the market, then what is their motivation to ever improving? We should be kicking some chevy/ford butt, not other Mopars! I'm sure this post will cause a "firestorm" of negative remarks and other hearsay that I will tell you ahead of time, I do not have time to respond to because we have parts to build! If you have questions, call (408-559-6633) Mon-Fri 10-6 PST or email ( jason@magnumforce.com ). Now, if you can excuse me, I can go back to actually working on Mopars.

Posted By: PHJ426

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end - 11/10/07 02:33 AM

I did not intend for this thread to become what it has.

Posted By: Skeptic

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end - 11/10/07 03:54 AM

Now that all 3 manufacturers have chimed in this thing should be locked, cleaned up and dropped into the archives

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end - 11/10/07 05:29 AM

if we could just get the actual users of these products to voice their opinions? rms xv and mf users. pros cons lets hear em.

Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end - 11/10/07 05:44 AM

Quote:

Now that all 3 manufacturers have chimed in this thing should be locked, cleaned up and dropped into the archives

Quote:

if we could just get the actual users of these products to voice their opinions? rms xv and mf users. pros cons lets hear em.

Hmmmmm, did someone see this comming??

Posted By: DualQuad68

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end - 11/10/07 10:42 AM

Quote:

Now that all 3 manufacturers have chimed in this thing should be locked, cleaned up and dropped into the archives

id still like to know what bill has planned for the abody alterk, as far as the SRT8 brakes and bolt patter. is it gonna happen?? if it does id love to have that on my car

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end - 11/10/07 02:15 PM

Quote:

I'm also curious about the .90g number. I think I read on XV's site yesterday that Level one is good for 1.0g.

In our testing on track using on-board telemetry we've measured 1.0 G sustained (not peak) lateral G with our Level I Suspension and the Level II measured 1.1 G. Car and Driver measures this using a 300 ft circle and timing it. On the car we brought to them they measured it as .90 G vs .68 G for the stock car. As a point of reference Car and Driver measures a C6 Z06 Vette at .99 G. Measured on track that car pulls 1.2 G. G's measured on a track will always be higher than those done on a 300ft circle, and again these are sustained, not peak G numbers.

Our test vehicle was lighter than the one we brought to C&D since it has: two batteries, power windows/doorlocks/decklid, two amps, two subs, speaker box, sound deadener in doors/cabin/roof/trunk, finished trunk and power seat, which the test car didn't. Test car was several hundred pounds lighter.

We also ran the car at C&D w/ KDW's rather than KD's (or Michelin's) - the difference being a wet tire rather than a dry, which would bump the numbers.

Handling is more subjective than just lateral G. What the G's don't show is how the car handles overall.

Here's what Car and Driver had to say about that: "Despite the weight the restomod handled fantastically".

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end - 11/10/07 02:20 PM

Quote:

Yeah, their comparison to a late model Camaro or Mustang made me think they don't buy the XV "Building modern Supercars from classic Muscle Cars" tag line.

That comparison was on acceleration. We wanted to go out to them with more HP, but wasn't time to make that happen with that car.

Quote:

Nevermind the comparison to a 37 yr old T/A. Albiet a sub 30K mi T/A, but the suspension bushings are about as firm as a Notell Motel mattress and the engine is likely tired (sunk exhaust valve seats) from burning unleaded gas for most of its life. The carb probably needs a rebuild and some tuning as well as the distributor.

They got it wrong on the mileage on the T/A, that wasn't correct. T/A was all gone through and freshened up. Motor was freshly rebuilt by us and carb setup was dialed in including tuning it with wideband 02.

Posted By: Skeptic

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end - 11/10/07 02:37 PM

Go to www.bigblockdart.com That's Bill's site and it has a very good forum section.
There HAS been comments from several people useing these, but that wasn't what was asked about @ the start of this mess, the basic anwser is NO. The next is NO it's not gonna happen anytime soon.
Cleaning this C.F. of a thread would require removing most of the posts-mine included and editing out the posturing and unveried "claims"

by the maufacturers.-Yah right that's gonna happen.

There's also the Control Freak unit that looks very similar to the Alter-K, guess it's not that "inferior" to the XV design, or they would have knocked that off

Time for me to get ready for the Fall Fling

Posted By: Fasbird

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end - 11/10/07 03:29 PM

I have a RMS setup still in the boxes. The '71 is going together this winter. So, no real world feedback as of yet. For the member that asked for user feedback, do a search and type in "alterktion" using all forums. I typed in up to 1 year old posts, and there were a ton of different threads. You may see the input you are looking for?

Posted By: quick77rt

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end - 11/10/07 06:08 PM

Well give me about 5 weeks and I will know first hand the good/bad/ugly of the alterktion....but so far all ive heard is very good things from people who do have them.

And its clear the products all talked about here are very good ones but they all have there place in the market....

I see on the positive side as much as the f-body mopars get kicked around many have them and see this new product from alterk as a very good thing.

If the first one goes well, ive a car ready for another...

Posted By: TC@HP2

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end - 11/11/07 04:06 AM

Since we have had posting from AlterK, XV, and now Magnumforce here is my challenge to all of you;

The first one to produce a 2" drop, disc brake spindle for $200 a pair, I know of a dozen or two buyers who will pick up a set.

Posted By: jcc

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end - 11/11/07 06:50 AM

Quote:

Since we have had posting from AlterK, XV, and now Magnumforce here is my challenger to all of you;

The first one to produce a 2" drop, disc brake spindle for $200 a pair, I know of a dozen or two buyers who will pick up a set.

I'll second that

Posted By: Bones

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end - 11/11/07 08:00 AM

Quote:

Since we have had posting from AlterK, XV, and now Magnumforce here is my challenger to all of you;

The first one to produce a 2" drop, disc brake spindle for $200 a pair, I know of a dozen or two buyers who will pick up a set.

A dozen? Dude, try several hundred if not a thousand plus people who would buy them tomorrow. If every other suspension company out there can offer Mustang II dropped spindles for around $200-300, theres no reason that someone couldn't offer the 73 and up Mopar disc brake dropped spindles for the same price. If I had the money on hand to invest, I would look into having them made myself. Talk about a money making opportunity.

Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end - 11/11/07 08:03 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Since we have had posting from AlterK, XV, and now Magnumforce here is my challenger to all of you;

The first one to produce a 2" drop, disc brake spindle for $200 a pair, I know of a dozen or two buyers who will pick up a set.

A dozen? Dude, try several hundred if not a thousand plus people who would buy them tomorrow. If every other company out there can offer Mustang II dropped spindles for around $200-300, theres no reason that someone couldn't offer the 73 and up mopar dropped spindles for the same price. If I had the money on hand to invest, I would look into having them made myself. Talk about a money making opportunity.

Thing is, it would work on every 62-72 B-body, E-body, and all A-bodies. It would even work on FMJ cars, but it would be slightly shorter.

Posted By: BergmanAutoCraft

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end - 11/11/07 11:56 AM

They are 500, and have been out for years...

Posted By: Skeptic

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end - 11/11/07 01:28 PM

Are you refering to the crappy fatman FMJ spindles?

Posted By: quick77rt

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end - 11/11/07 01:31 PM

Are you refering to the crappy fatman FMJ spindles? HUH

!!!!

Posted By: Skeptic

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end - 11/11/07 02:49 PM

Quote:

Are you refering to the crappy fatman FMJ spindles? HUH !!!!

If you have good experience with them, well you would be the first person I've heard of that did.

They look good for a lightweight skinney tired street rod. I wouldn't trust them on my fat tired street car

with speed bumps, potholes and the occasional canyon run

I don't have an issue with the taller FMJ spindles, I've seen enough testing and frankly

here to come to my own conclusion about that.

Posted By: TC@HP2

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end - 11/11/07 04:23 PM

Quote:

It would even work on FMJ cars, but it would be slightly shorter.

Well given the choice, I'd actually prefer the taller spindles over the shorter ones for the roll center placement, camber change curve, and lighter weight. But honestly, I'd use A body size too.

Fatman drop spindles are probably fine for the pro-parking crowd or the cruise it to the show and shine bunch. I personally am not too interested in trying them under any of my vehicles which will see some high level lateral stress. Not only that, their prices have jumped from $300 to $500 in the last two years with no change in the quality of the product.

I can think of two dozen people I personally know who would buy them right now. Odds are they could probably sell them as fast as they could forge them for the next couple of years.

Posted By: Bones

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end - 11/11/07 09:11 PM

Quote:

They are 500, and have been out for years...

Yes, we've all known about those for years, the problem is that they are a total rip off.

For the most part, spindles are spindles. They are dimensionally different yes, but there is no reason that the spindles that Fatman sells should cost so much more than all the other spindles out there. Be they Mopar, MII, Chevey or whatever. The regular (non-drop) spindles that Magnum Force sells are a little over $300, good quality, and are manufactured right here in the good old USA. There are also plenty of other companies out there selling MII and Chevy drop spindles in the $229 range. If they can all make a nice profit at that price there's no reason someone couldn't do the same thing with with the 73' and up Chrysler units.

If someone had the money to invest, they could get these things made, sell them for a fair price, make a nice profit, and be a hero to the Mopar community all at the same time.

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end - 11/12/07 06:39 PM

Quote:

Since we have had posting from AlterK, XV, and now Magnumforce here is my challenge to all of you;

The first one to produce a 2" drop, disc brake spindle for $200 a pair, I know of a dozen or two buyers who will pick up a set.

We released the high-strength cast version of the 73-up AB&E Disc spindle about six months ago and 2" drop version is in development as we speak.

Posted By: TC@HP2

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end - 11/12/07 09:05 PM

Quote:

We released the high-strength cast version of the 73-up AB&E Disc spindle about six months ago and 2" drop version is in development as we speak.

Hey, hey, hey, you guys are going to be busy!!!

Posted By: autodynamics

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end - 11/15/07 04:56 AM

so whats the verdict?

Posted By: autodynamics

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end - 11/15/07 04:57 AM

any xmas specials?

Posted By: Dos Snails

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end ?'s - 11/18/07 07:50 PM

Quote:

Well, this thread has made me think we should see if we can't offer our Level II setup in a more economical configuration - to make it within reach of more people.

.

Thanks,
John

I'll take a K frame & upper arms & a sway bar, all the rest of the Zo6 stuff I can get cheap.

Posted By: RylisPro

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end ?'s - 11/18/07 08:52 PM

I totaled both RMS and XV Level II setups
I wanted for my application:

RMS:
ARC4000L LevelPro compressor system w/ aluminum tank $2,070.00
ABAR20700 Mopar 68-70 B Body & 70-74 E Body rear AirBar w/ dual adjustable Shockwave $2,265.00
AIRBAR Air Ride Shockwave double adjustable $798.00
16160 Tubular K-Member Conversion B and E-Body Power Steering $3,595.00
16160 complete 1.125" sway bar $249.00
WIL-140-7018 Superlite 6 Piston 13" Big Brake Front Kit $1,250.00
total= $10,227.00

XV Level II:
20-1201 XV E-Body Level II Suspension - Front $7,495.00
20-1221 XV E-Body Level II Suspension - Rear $3,395.00
25-1201 XV E-Body Level II Brakes - Front $2,895.00
total= $13,785.00

when I add up the parts total of the XV Level II it is roughly $3,558.00 more for my application

but what is not included is the amount for the extra welding of the XV Level II
I would guess it would cost maybe $1000 for the proper welding procedure?
if so it would only cost roughly $5000.00 more to have the XV Level II installed for my application

bottom line is cost
if there is any way to lower that extra $5000 difference to be more cost effective with the RMS setup,
then I would choose the XV Level II in a heartbeat

Posted By: ScottSmith_Harms

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end ?'s - 11/18/07 10:27 PM

Quote:

bottom line is cost
if there is any way to lower that extra $5000 difference to be more cost effective with the RMS setup,
then I would choose the XV Level II in a heartbeat

I think the bigger question would be;

"What performance or reliability difference would I see for the extra $5,000.00?"

Sure be cool to see two equally preppared cars go head to head on a closed course to see who could run the best times. I think the results would raise a few eyebrows.

Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end ?'s - 11/18/07 11:11 PM

Quote:

I totaled both RMS and XV Level II setups
I wanted for my application:

RMS:
ARC4000L LevelPro compressor system w/ aluminum tank $2,070.00
ABAR20700 Mopar 68-70 B Body & 70-74 E Body rear AirBar w/ dual adjustable Shockwave $2,265.00
AIRBAR Air Ride Shockwave double adjustable $798.00
16160 Tubular K-Member Conversion B and E-Body Power Steering $3,595.00
16160 complete 1.125" sway bar $249.00
WIL-140-7018 Superlite 6 Piston 13" Big Brake Front Kit $1,250.00
total= $10,227.00

XV Level II:
20-1201 XV E-Body Level II Suspension - Front $7,495.00
20-1221 XV E-Body Level II Suspension - Rear $3,395.00
25-1201 XV E-Body Level II Brakes - Front $2,895.00
total= $13,785.00

when I add up the parts total of the XV Level II it is roughly $3,558.00 more for my application

but what is not included is the amount for the extra welding of the XV Level II
I would guess it would cost maybe $1000 for the proper welding procedure?
if so it would only cost roughly $5000.00 more to have the XV Level II installed for my application

bottom line is cost
if there is any way to lower that extra $5000 difference to be more cost effective with the RMS setup,
then I would choose the XV Level II in a heartbeat

Sort of apples to oranges comparison. One has air bags and one doesn't. Why do you need air bags? They are not going to make you go faster.

Do you need the very last bit of refinement that the XV Level II? A XV level I kit is very capable too and would and has done fine on the track. Rare T/A took his car out to Pocono with some or all of Level I stuff.

An Alterkion with QA1 shocks and good brakes is very capable of track days too. And if you need a steering box rebuild and/or conversion motor mounts the Alterkion comes with new item to cover those needs automatically.

Quote:

bottom line is cost

...I just went to your website and saw your build sheet for this car.

They can't print money fast enough for all that stuff, so what's $5000 to get the very most handling out of it. You're planning on a dry sumped, EFI, aluminum Indy block 572 motor....

Get something wider than 235's for a car that's built to this level of capability. Like 275's. Also think about investing in a six point cage. They really tie everything together beyond frame connectors and even the XV stiffening. Especially on a car with a motor as capable at that.

I'd also suggest going out to a track day in your area that has some older cars and get a feel for things and ideas.

Posted By: RylisPro

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end ?'s - 11/18/07 11:53 PM

your right, I don't need airbags to go faster
but it is the most expensive option in Alterkations setup which is still less than XV's most expensive setup

Why end with XV Level I when I know they have a Level II?

I agree about the QA1's which do cost less!

I have 30% of whats on the list. there are pics to the links if you click on them for example:
http://www.rylispro.com/cuda/engine/440-B4-MWRB.htm

I did not know you could fit 275 front tires in ebodys I thought 235 were the biggest?

I am planning on a 10 point cage

I am not looking down on the RMS Alterkation
it is still on my list
just saying the price difference is at least $5000
between RMS and XV
who dosent want to save that money?

thanks

Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end ?'s - 11/19/07 02:06 AM

Quote:

your right, I don't need airbags to go faster
but it is the most expensive option in Alterkations setup which is still less than XV's most expensive setup

Why end with XV Level I when I know they have a Level II?

I agree about the QA1's which do cost less!

What do you want? The cheapest, the best, the best value, the most impressive...

Do you want the cheapest most expensive one?? -Ouch you just exploded my head.

What happens if they come out with a Level III that cost less than Level I and II. Then they come out with Level 0 that cost more than all of the levels combined. -Now I just exploded your head.

Ok, back on track. I think you want to know if your extra money is being well spent?

Quote:

I did not know you could fit 275 front tires in ebodys I thought 235 were the biggest?

With the right offset they will. And tubular A-arms would give a little needed clearance too... https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/show...rue#Post3946034

Have you considered tubbing the back for more tire room. You're going to have more power than you can put down with that motor combo?

Quote:

I am planning on a 10 point cage

I am not looking down on the RMS Alterkation
it is still on my list
just saying the price difference is at least $5000
between RMS and XV
who dosent want to save that money?

thanks

Well it looks like you are trying to maximize every bit of performance out of this car. Many times the last 5% takes the most money.

You could run a iron block 440 and a good designed wet sump and save a lot of that $5000 too.

Posted By: RylisPro

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end ?'s - 11/19/07 02:37 AM

Quote:

Ok, back on track. I think you want to know if your extra money is being well spent?

well said!

Quote:

Have you considered tubbing the back for more tire room. You're going to have more power than you can put down with that motor combo?

yes. problem is they dont make 19 lbs BBS RGR's wider than 18 x 10's and 295's fit just fine.
besides the skinnier tire will just spin and save my driveline in the long run

Quote:

Many times the last 5% takes the most money.

i agree

in my case the last 70%

Quote:

You could run a iron block 440 and a good designed wet sump and save a lot of that $5000 too.

whats the fun in that?

look I am not arguing, I am agreeing with you
thanks

Posted By: JF_Moparts

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end ?'s - 11/19/07 03:28 AM

This is to the folks at RMS and XV:

Have you considered offering aero effects for the older Mopars? Suspension is all about stability and aerodynamics affect stability a heck of a lot.

The 71-up B bodies and all E-bodies were pretty aerodynamic for their day, but the right ground effects would really help stabilize them at high speeds. As far as I know the only option I have as a 71 Satellite/RR owner is the original eyebrow spoilers, which seem to do very little. If a company offered good looking front and rear spoilers for my car, I'd buy them in a heartbeat. The same goes for rear window louvers.

And as a corrollary to the above, if anyone knows of good aero effects for these cars that are already being offered, please let me know.

- Jim

Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end ?'s - 11/19/07 04:00 AM

Quote:

This is to the folks at RMS and XV:

Have you considered offering aero effects for the older Mopars? Suspension is all about stability and aerodynamics affect stability a heck of a lot.

The 71-up B bodies and all E-bodies were pretty aerodynamic for their day, but the right ground effects would really help stabilize them at high speeds. As far as I know the only option I have as a 71 Satellite/RR owner is the original eyebrow spoilers, which seem to do very little. If a company offered good looking front and rear spoilers for my car, I'd buy them in a heartbeat. The same goes for rear window louvers.

And as a corrollary to the above, if anyone knows of good aero effects for these cars that are already being offered, please let me know.

- Jim

From the 69 Car Life Spoiler Test article on a 69 Camaro, Javalin, and GTO the front end lifting is the biggest problem. All the cars then had a nose up front side profile. That traps air under the front and lifts the front. NOTE: this was real well ran test. Had well thought out cables to measure suspension travel. Pretty involved for it's day.

From the tests the sedan Camaro with it's notchback and flat trunk did well to not lift the rear. That car is like E-bodies and most 63-70 B-bodies. When they added the rear spoiler only the back had good downforce but in turn it pushed the nose up. They concluded the stock 69 Front spoiler only was the best deal.

But that 69 Camaro spoiler is not that big. Not like a 71 Charger or 69-70 Mustang type. I'd shoot for something those two cars had or bigger like the Trans Am cars had.

The Kammback and fastback profiled 69 Javelin and 69 GTO had rear end lift above 60 mph. And also front lift without a spoiler. The rear spoilers on those stunk and didn't do anything. Those two car are like 71-74 Ply B-bodies, 67-69 Barracuda Fastbacks, 66-67 Chargers and Duster/Demons.

I think a ducktail spoiler on those fastback type cars like the one Direct Connection sold once for Duster/Demons would help. Also 67 Charger had problems in Nascar with rear lift and they homogated a rear ducktail that came on the hemi cars.

Key thing about front spoilers is to make them out of ABS. Fiberglass ones crack and will always hit driveways and curbs.

This is the spoiler pictured below is modeled after one Dean Jefferies made and was used on the Ontario Speedway 70 Challenger Pace Car. It's like the race Trans Am ones. I think it's a lot more effective than a stock 69 Camaro front spoiler.

It's also huge PITA. Al's had this on his car for years. And had it repaired many times. And he babies it like none other. Not very fun to live with. Now if it were ABS that would change everything. The guy who did these fiberglass ones in the early 90's? made them for Challengers and 70 Chargers, IIRC.

Posted By: RTSE4ME

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end ?'s - 11/19/07 05:00 AM

This 69 Camaro has gone 220 mph with just a small front spoiler and a ducktail spoiler for the rear.................. http://www.bigredcamaro.com/newsite/mainpage.html

I guess you don't need much to keep the front end down.

It would be interesting to see a purpose built XV race car compared to Big Red.

Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end ?'s - 11/19/07 05:46 AM

Quote:

This 69 Camaro has gone 220 mph with just a small front spoiler and a ducktail spoiler for the rear.................. http://www.bigredcamaro.com/newsite/mainpage.html

I guess you don't need much to keep the front end down.

It would be interesting to see a purpose built XV race car compared to Big Red.

The Camaro in the Car Life test had a lot more ride height to it also. Big Red is low in the front. And that will make the tip of the spoiler lower. I've seen it in person.

The pictures from the 69 season of the Penske Camaro show a short spoiler. But the car is low in the front and the body is raked. Nascar then raked their bodies on the chassis also for aero. The 69 season Camaro spoiler mounts at lowest point of the valance and has less angle to it. The 69 Camaro ran by Milt Mitner in 1970 (and also won once) was more a shovel type. Don't know what's better or if it matters.

Here's Tim Werner's spoiler. It's a garage door seal. Don't tell anyone.

Attached picture 3962861-TimWerner67Valiant2a.jpg

Attached picture 3962861-TimWerner67Valiant2a.jpg

Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end ?'s - 11/19/07 07:23 AM

Here's a spoiler from a member on the Race Section. He said he made it from at Chevy S10 spoiler.

Wonder what model and years that would be??

Attached picture 3962934-68CudaSpoiler1.jpg

Posted By: RylisPro

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end ?'s - 11/19/07 03:25 PM

Quote:

I would guess it would cost maybe $1000 for the proper welding procedure?

I called XV about the proper welding procedure
it is not any more complicated than welding in their subframe connectors and would not cost the extra money

just wanted to clarify my mistake...

Posted By: scottk

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end - 11/20/07 02:24 AM

Quote:

my holley carbs say for off road use only...

is my car gonna fly apart??

Posted By: EWJ

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end ?'s - 11/23/07 09:54 PM

Quote:

Well, this thread has made me think we should see if we can't offer our Level II setup in a more economical configuration - to make it within reach of more people.

That ball has already been set in motion.

Quote:

So, give me a few weeks and we'll be releasing some new versions with lower points of entry on the cost side. Will likely be a bit more than RMS setup, but much closer.

I'm making an assumption here, that I really should be asking you guys: If we get the XV Level II closer to RMS on the cost side, but still a bit more, will more of you be interested in buying it?

Yes!

Posted By: Dos Snails

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end ?'s - 11/24/07 03:33 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Well, this thread has made me think we should see if we can't offer our Level II setup in a more economical configuration - to make it within reach of more people.

That ball has already been set in motion.

Quote:

So, give me a few weeks and we'll be releasing some new versions with lower points of entry on the cost side. Will likely be a bit more than RMS setup, but much closer.

I'm making an assumption here, that I really should be asking you guys: If we get the XV Level II closer to RMS on the cost side, but still a bit more, will more of you be interested in buying it?

Yes!

Posted By: gregk

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end - 11/26/07 03:10 AM

Quote:

Would you guys like me to go through our setup in detail? What we did, why, how, what we found, how we addressed, etc.?

For example, here's our front sawy bar mount. There's a reason we did it this way:

Yes, I'd liek to read up more on your reasons. Not really to sell your product, but just to learn more. I suggest adding it to your webpage instead of trying to build a thread here that would just open up more bickering. I had pretty much decided to go with the Alterkation due to price, but a XV setup done in stages or cheaper alternative would be great. I can't drive well enough to need more than the Level I setup, but I would love to get rid of the torsion bars. Turbos may be in my future and would love the room. Plus looks do matter and the XV setup does look the best.

Greg Kring
70 challenger vert
70 barracuda

Posted By: prochargedhemi

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end ?'s - 11/26/07 03:35 AM

didn't read through all the posts but i bought the magnumforce piece for my car and craftsmanship is A+ but fitment i give them an F.
The k-fit in the car perfect but THERE lower control arms didn't fit THERE k-member, and THERE uppers didn't fit my car. I had a couple other problems with the shocks but i will put that on myself since i used strange shocks and not the junk Qa1's or there off brand.
I think they have a big problem with quality control it would have taken them 2 minutes to bolt them up and see they were way off. Then when i tried for two weeks to contact them (left multiple messages with the secretary) a call was never recieved and i posted a thread on another board and sent them an email with a link to my comments and there lack of customer support. A day later i recieved a phone call saying to ship whatever was wrong back after i had waited three weeks and had already fixed there mess.but i guess thats what you get anymore.Nothing is truely a bolt on

Posted By: Jim_Lusk

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end ?'s - 11/26/07 03:32 PM

Quote:

didn't read through all the posts but i bought the magnumforce piece for my car and craftsmanship is A+ but fitment i give them an F.
....

Funny, that's exactly their reputation........

Posted By: jvike

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end ?'s - 11/26/07 03:46 PM

When I saw Al's Cuda on the cover of HOT ROD a few years back I knew I wanted a Cuda. So I got one, but when it came to the spoiler I thought it would be to big to live with. I wanted more the look of an 69 Camaro front spoiler, so I got one from MAS Fiberglass. What it does for downforce I don't know, my but-o-meter aren't that fine tuned..

I also have an AAR ducktail.

I've read the entire post, and there are some good info here, espesialy for a guy looking for a new suspention like myself. I think it's great that the manufacurers are comming online and going trough their products. I think there is a market for everyone. But I can't help noticing that Bill Reilly did't make a move until John Buscema said that he would lower the Level II entry prices to RMSs level. I think competition is healthy. But in the end XV will still be full tilt rebuild, and Alterktion will still be bolt in. They are not fighting about the same customers.

Posted By: RTSE4ME

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end - 11/27/07 04:19 AM

This novel?..............

Quote:

Ok, I'll bite. That's correct, I don't post much here anymore. My experience here has been that while most people ask questions, they already "know" what they're talking about and only want to read replies that reinforce what they believe. If anyone contradicts what they believe, it turns into a firestorm - I love chatting about suspension in general, and a lively debate is fun, but plain ole' arguing is not for me, so I avoid it.
I�ve been paying close attention for a long time now, and frankly, I�m awfully shocked that so many people are star-struck by that video, while never seeing the obvious.
The XV testing was an excellent educational video of what it takes to compete in pro-class, big sponsor racing. It also made clear that XV�s stiffening kit would be a great purchase � instead of blindly welding in reinforcements all over the place until the flexing is stopped, you can now buy a little bag of pieces that go right into the key areas � huge time saver.
But don�t confuse chassis stiffening items with suspension items. I could put all the same pieces together and call it an engineered kit � after years of working on these cars, most mopar builders can rattle off the problem areas without ever saying the words �engineered� or �proprietary�. Most of them already reinforce the same areas on their own. It�s still a huge time saver though, so I think the stiffening kit is a great idea for anyone that�s new to these cars.
The part that no one seems to notice is that a lot of the testing surrounded matching springs, shock valving, brake sizing, ect., to the car. That�s great stuff for THAT PARTICULAR car. On a daily basis, I deal with cars that appear identical, but vary in weight by more than 500lbs � sometimes with no explanation. Maybe one has a/c, a lot of dynamat and maybe some amps in the trunk, while the other does not. I had a 70 hemi cuda here this year that weighed in at 4208lbs, while another similar 70 hemi cuda only showed 3580lbs. My 69 iron-440 Dart weighs 3040lbs, but I have a buddy with a 340 Dart and it weighs 3425lbs. Knowing the engine and make of the car has no bearing at all on what it might weigh. But if you call XV, both hemi cudas will get the same components, which of course will only be a �match� to a car that weighs very close to the one XV tested. Or, if you don�t run the same tires and wheel sizes they tested on, you�ll also end up out of the �matched� category. Most of the pavement racers I know are pulling shocks apart if there�s a 50lb weight change. They also have different sets of shocks for different tracks, because at that level of perfection, small things make a big difference. If you run on a different piece of road than the track testing was done on, the settings will be off. You�re not going to know this because the parts are so much better than the generic stuff most of you are used to, it will be a massive improvement anyway. But I guess it�s ok, as long the TV show says they�re matched, it must be true.
As for the suspension side of things, again, attention must be paid to the underlying functions, not the million-dollar simulator it was parked on. Suspension must be very rugged to withstand daily street use or road race conditions � drag racing has simple requirements in the front, which I don�t really concentrate on � I have more fun turning the wheels. If I was an engine guy, drag racing would be my area of interest.
Anyway, suspension has to be durable, bind-free, the moving parts need to be flex-free, and the geometry has to be optimized.
Well, I felt there was a better, simpler way than doing all that cutting and welding, especially on cars that are getting ever-more rare. The shock tower design I came up with, along with the material sizes we used, provided all the structural integrity the suspension needed, without altering the car, weakening it, or putting any forces where they shouldn�t be. At that point, the frame satisfied all the design requirements, so there was no need to over-complicate it. Some people, actually most people these days, think that because something has an important job, it has to be complicated and analyzed by million-dollar computers. It only has to be analyzed by someone that knows what the end results should be. Computer simulations cut years off of development time, but since I�m about 6 years beyond the development stage, it�s just not a thought to me at this point. Yep, it looks like the XV frame is more rigid, but it doesn�t really matter. Once a part is strong enough to withstand it�s intended use, going further is silly. Sorry I had no TV show so everyone could watch me go through it all. I really didn�t think any of it was worth a DVD.

So now that there�s a frame that performs the proper functions, the next item to work out is geometry. There�s simple software to fine-tune all of that in an afternoon, although I admit it�s a lot of fun to play with, so even after 8 years, I�m still always trying different dimensions to see what will happen � the geometry is maxed out already though, so none of my play-time lately has warranted any real design changes. Pivot points and control arms are a simple matter to figure out � just sound principles and good materials, all of which are well-known throughout the industry. After a while, you�ll start to notice similar designs are used everywhere in all kinds of suspensions, street to race, GM, ford, mopar, imports � eventually, most companies end up with the same conclusions as to what works best. Recently, there�s been a shift towards the vette stuff, primarily because it�s inexpensive, easy to get, and frees up a lot of labor time. Of course they�re good parts also. Splined sway bars are also very cool � and very adjustable. If you�re on a track every weekend, and have the patience to really tune with different bars, it�s a useful device. If you�re not competing for blood, a regular bar works just great � the bent bars we use are sized specifically to provide a certain amount of roll resistance with our suspension design.. yea, I guess you could say it�s a �matched� component � to the suspension though, on an average-weight car � a 3000lb car is a bit stiff with the bar, while a 4000lb car could use a bit more. We tested lots of sizes on the road and in the software, and the current size was the best compromise between roll resistance and driver comfort. I could make more sizes, but the cost of them would go up, which is always a key priority. If you want to pay, I�d be happy to make up a specific bar thats closer to your need. No big deal.
Is the use of aluminum a great marketing ploy? Yep. Is it better? Nope. Using aluminum requires thicker sections, which puts the weight of the items similar to that of comparable strength steel � it�s popular with oem�s because it�s cheaper to manufacture than steel. Ditto for the all-popular chrome-moly stuff out there � after you add threaded ends, balljoints, shocks, rack, ect, the tubing itself is a tiny fraction of the overall weight � did you know a magnum system is only 5lbs lighter than the heavy-wall, mild steel alterktion? Just 5lbs lighter. I know this because I have a few of them here that we had to replace for customers � I wont say why we took them out, or how many a year I replace, but you�d be shocked. Speaking of, those people like to mention how the alterktion has very little wheel travel. In fact, we have 5.5� of wheel travel, which is 1� more than magnum. I can also state that Johns choice of shock length in order to have bumpstops is the silliest statement I�ve heard in a while. The bumpstops are a common item, and in race circles, they�re more used as additional �springs� at the limit of wheel travel, not so much as bottom-out protectors � I have a box full here if anyone needs them. Just an off the shelf shock length too I�m sure � 5� travel it looks to be, with the extended top. Doesn�t matter what the valving is � without corner weights the valving is still just a guess. Although the AFCO, er� XV shocks are a good quality piece. The Ididit, er..I mean XV columns look nice too, except you may not know this John, but a lot of people are telling me they�re far from a bolt-in. Perhaps you�re forgetting to tell people about the GM wiring plugs on them? Might want to revise the sales pitch a tad. Oh wait, there was that comment about the modern sealed, large diameter bearings. Come on now � how many guys are building these cars for a 200 lap race? And more importantly, if the corvette spindles had regular bearing sizes, would you have designed bigger bearings? I doubt it. It�s just the basic vette bearing that fits the off the shelf a-arms and spindles you�re using, nothing more.
Speaking of�about that initial bulleted sales pitch on the first page..
--- The first one, designed for street/handling � ditto
---- Next, impossible � �dialed in� is a silly statement � what did you dial? XV phone home.. LOL Although I can admit it�s a great term to use when you want to be impressive without actually saying anything.
---- Next one � track tested, street tested � ditto � in fact, some of my early systems have over 60,000 miles on the original parts, including bushings and rod ends � yep even the rod ends that some seem to think will explode in the presence of a public highway � it�s not the part, it�s the type of part that matters. The parts we make now are at least 300% better than the first ones we did, so durability hasn�t been a question in years.
---- mandrel bent frame � you mean mandrel bent crossbar�just one piece. Does non-mandrel bending ruin things? Nope. In fact, with square material, it creates stiffening ribs on the inside radius, creating a part that actually stronger than a comparable mandrel bent piece. Mandrel looks a little bit nicer, but it�s certainly nothing to have a party about.
--- 4-post rig for shocks/spring rates � see paragraph above.
--- sway bars � see above.
--- geometry � you could�ve saved A LOT of money if you used the $1000 software like everyone else and finished with a bit more road testing � same results, just takes a month or two longer, and you�d be able to use more technical terms than �dialed in��.
---- variable rate racks are cool, but not a very big deal. We only use MII manual racks. The power racks we use were designed for SCCA use in certain class vehicles and perform about as good as anything on the market right now. In fact, they work well enough that we often find ourselves at odds with 5 major producers of ford/chevy suspension systems, as we�re all needing large numbers of the same rack � if these racks were flawed in any way, every highway in the country would be littered with broken muscle cars by now.
--- chassis stiffening � different subject, see above.
--- bumpsteer adjustment � we use existing points to mount everything without any fab work after the sale, so we could easily design the system without bumpsteer and eliminate one more issue for the customer. If you want to add bumpsteer characteristics for track use, cut the welded part down and I�ll send a cool little spacer kit to adjust with. I don�t recommend it, but if that�s what you want�� speaking off, I can also adjust the height of the rack with certain bolt-on pieces I carry here, so if it�s bump adjustment you want, anything�s possible. Un-necessary, but possible.
----- Yep, killer shocks you have, no doubt. Valving, see above, but they�re good shocks no matter how you look at it. We�ve been using AFCO shocks for 5 years now as an optional item, the only problem was, until this year, they weren�t capable of the volumes we needed to use them exclusively, so we had to �settle� for QA1. Lucky you don�t sell much, or you would have been in a bind last year. Although, we dyno�d some QA1�s during the testing, and we all agreed they�re a great shock, especially for the street/handling crowd. Very strange actually � last year everyone on this board was scoffing at the thought of a $150 shock � now they�re demanding $400 ones. Weird people indeed.
--computer modeled brakes specifically for the intended load � what�s the load? If your car weighed 3400lbs, your special brakes with be under-par for the 4200lbs hemi cuda, and if they�re made for a 4200lb car, they�ll be way too ,much for a 3400lb car � right? I mean, if they were SPECIFICALLY designed for a particular application under a particular load, what particular weight car, with what particular coefficient of friction tires will they precisely work on as they�re intended? No one is mentioning a master cylinder in these conversations, which is the primary piece of any brake system � bore size will make or break a good system. Is a matched master part of the level 2 brake kit? Other than that perfect car, seems to me they�d only be as good as the �off the shelf� kits that I can already get and service. Front to rear bias is affected by so many variables it�s impossible to design that specifically for anything other the car in front of you on the piece of road it�s sitting on. Brake companies already design rule of thumb piston sizes front and rear, so I don�t have to worry about it � the big race cars you claim to duplicate use adjustable prop valves for brake bias, and so do the rest of us.

---3-link rear. Ya got me on that one. It�s the most effective suspension for a road racing type of car, but not because it�s bind-free � it�s because you can easily adjust the roll center and anti-squat characteristics. You�re a racer John, I KNOW you know this � why not say it? All this proprietary, top-secret stuff is getting weird. I�m choosing triangulated 4 bar stuff because it�s easy to install, well balanced with modern front suspension, and easy to adjust for alignment purposes. I have to design in the roll center and anti-squat dimensions, so that will be non adjustable, but as long as it�s designed correctly, all but the most competitive top-class cars will have very successful results with it�and they can keep the stock floor. My choice of not building a 3-link has nothing to do with lack of knowledge, and everything to do with what makes sense for home builders to work with.

I�ll also add that good steering cars were in style long before you popped up on the radar with your TV show, and long before I popped up 9 years ago(are you that arrogant to think you started some trend that we're all scrambling to follow?) � we�ve been building cars that steer for 8 years, over 1000 systems in use in 19 countries, tens of thousands of all-weather street miles, raced on nearly every track in America, not to mention a few tracks verified in Switzerland, Germany, France, Norway, Brazil and who knows where else. In fact, the pivot design on the lower control arms was a direct result of track testing by a Swiss racer. We also have free access to engineering departments at 6 different motor sports manufacturers in all aspects of vehicle design. We don�t have to make appointments and we don�t call camera crews � I can just call whenever I feel like going over design ideas, and all kinds of friendly engineers are happy to help. Full analysis of whatever runs through my head is just a fax away. No trumpets blowing, no walmart-sized show rooms, just plain ole parts that work. If that�s not enough proof, you guys will never have enough. As for my disclaimer of off-road use, it�s common across the aftermarket to protect against insurance lawsuits. Look at parts when you buy them � 90% of them state off-highway use in one form or another. If you run a red light in your super bee and kill somebody, everybody gets sued, from the company that made your sunglasses all the way down to the company that made your tires � unless the company has a disclaimer, and even at that it can be a very expensive journey. I�m not losing my house because some doofus talking on a cell phone didn�t see a red light under his sunvisor. If I lose Devil�s sale because of it, no problem � I�d rather keep my house than gain a sale.
ALSO NOTE � THERE IS NO DOT-CERT for chassis parts � NONE � only flexible brake lines. This is good to remember when you see some brake companies spouting about their DOT approved calipers. Pure scam, you know who you are.

And let me also add, John, that you might notice I had nothing to say up until this point � I kept my mouth shut for over a year about my opinions, assuming we�re all respectable people and could let the parts speak for themselves. I hate conflict, and avoid it whenever possible, which is why I rarely post on forums any more. You say you wont pick apart the other companies here, but today, 3 different people called me to order suspensions, and all three mentioned salespeople at XV going on about how flawed the RMS stuff is � YOUR salespeople, whoever they are, forced me to speak up. I got the 3 sales regardless, but it really ticked me off that I�ve kept silent about XV through all this dog and pony show baloney, and ended up in your rumor-mongering crosshairs anyway. Why does everyone have to create drama where there was none? So if any of the above irritates you, keep in mind I was perfectly happy staying quietly under the radar until your staff started making the rude remarks. And to be honest, I�m just not impressed at all that the whole car needs to be butchered up � people would be better served by a Morrison Max-G chassis for that kind of dough and fab work. If you have to cut the car to pieces to install a �kit�, it�s not a very well designed kit. You might as well add the full-frame benefits and go all the way.
Does the XV level 2 system work? I have no doubts it performs flawlessly, but there isn�t much impressive about the design over the RMS, except that you have to cut and weld for 50 or so hours, and I�m not so arrogant to think my parts are sprinkled with magic dust. If you can pop 30k to have a level 2 installed by someone qualified, go for it, but is all that necessary to run circles around a vette? Certainly not. Unless the car is identical to the tested car, the matched components are no better than similar quality shelf units. All else is so close to being equal, pitting one system against the other would result in similar results.
In the beginning, you stated clearly you had no interest in pitting your parts against others, and had no interest in talking about it because you�re gearing your systems for the high-buck cars, not the low-end customers we cater to, as if the budget minded crowd and the companies that sell parts to them aren�t good enough to even warrant your attention. Now it seems, you and your crew are getting quite aggressive trying to discredit us, since you couldn�t really prove you were better. I�m not paying the builders to stick with us, they�re choosing to. Hundreds of repeat customers, many on 3, 4, 5 or more systems now, just aren�t wrong. They all know about XV, spoke to people on the phone, looked at your information�.and called us to order another one. Not my choice � theirs - so what's with all the bad mouthing?

�Proprietary geometry LOL gimme a break. The pictures in this post alone are enough to figure out the curves in that system. There are fewer morons here than you think.

Posted By: gregk

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end ?'s - 01/24/08 05:26 AM

I just emailed XV about what they may have available now in the more budget minded Level II style suspension. It's been a couple months since this thread died, but I am still interested on how to spend that hard earned money. I'm ready to get the car off the rotisserie and back on the ground. I'll pay more for the cool factor, just don't know if I can talk myself into paying double the price of an Alterkation for a race quality suspension setup on a cruiser car. either way it will be nice to get the added room by losing torsion bars as well as the improved rack and pinion and adjustable suspension.

Greg Kring
Arlington, Tx
71 challenger vert
70 barracuda

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Well, this thread has made me think we should see if we can't offer our Level II setup in a more economical configuration - to make it within reach of more people.

That ball has already been set in motion.

Quote:

So, give me a few weeks and we'll be releasing some new versions with lower points of entry on the cost side. Will likely be a bit more than RMS setup, but much closer.

I'm making an assumption here, that I really should be asking you guys: If we get the XV Level II closer to RMS on the cost side, but still a bit more, will more of you be interested in buying it?

Yes!

Posted By: cogen80

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end ?'s - 01/24/08 02:13 PM

go with the alter-k-tion. you won't be disappointed...

Posted By: cogen80

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end ?'s - 01/24/08 02:17 PM

Quote:

But I can't help noticing that Bill Reilly did't make a move until John Buscema said that he would lower the Level II entry prices to RMSs level.

looks like it was more that reilly replied after john from xv continued to bash the alter-k.

Posted By: MoparCar

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end ?'s - 02/01/08 07:28 PM

gregk,
Any response back from XV?

Posted By: gregk

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end ?'s - 02/03/08 05:02 AM

Nothing. Guess a phone call is in order.

Posted By: MaXRSmart

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end ?'s - 02/12/08 07:18 PM

Quote:

Quote:

A direct comparison to the XV product is not possible because they're in two different realms. Bill made a good product that will work for 95% of us. XV went much farther than any of us really expected.
XV targeted the unlimited budget guys.
Bill is aiming at the real world guys.

Well, this thread has made me think we should see if we can't offer our Level II setup in a more economical configuration - to make it within reach of more people.

That ball has already been set in motion.

So, give me a few weeks and we'll be releasing some new versions with lower points of entry on the cost side. Will likely be a bit more than RMS setup, but much closer.

I'm making an assumption here, that I really should be asking you guys: If we get the XV Level II closer to RMS on the cost side, but still a bit more, will more of you be interested in buying it?

Right now we are offering it only one way - best of everything. We can definitely change some pieces out and try and push down some of our costs on others as well.

There are some other VERY interesting configurations we've looked at as well that we can do easily.

Let me know what you think.

Thanks,
John

Well a few weeks have passed, so has a few months, any news?

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end - 12/01/08 05:27 AM

What is the maximum tire width you can use with the XV level 2 rear setup on a 70' Challenger? Also, what is the largest capacity oil pan you can use with the level 2 front kit with a hemi?

Posted By: dangina

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end ?'s - 01/19/09 11:53 PM

dear dqhemi - do you have any issues with bump steer? can you drop in a new 5.7 or 6.1 hemi or is your system meant for small/big block engines? why did you go with a 3-link rear instead of a 5-link(2 upper links and 2 lower links plus a panhard rod?)and why did you use rubber on the panhard instead of a teflon rod end or ball bearing? thanks!...

Posted By: Blakcharger440

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end ?'s - 01/20/09 11:38 PM

Quote:

I just emailed XV about what they may have available now in the more budget minded Level II style suspension. It's been a couple months since this thread died, but I am still interested on how to spend that hard earned money. I'm ready to get the car off the rotisserie and back on the ground. I'll pay more for the cool factor, just don't know if I can talk myself into paying double the price of an Alterkation for a race quality suspension setup on a cruiser car. either way it will be nice to get the added room by losing torsion bars as well as the improved rack and pinion and adjustable suspension.

Greg Kring
Arlington, Tx
71 challenger vert
70 barracuda

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Well, this thread has made me think we should see if we can't offer our Level II setup in a more economical configuration - to make it within reach of more people.

That ball has already been set in motion.

Quote:

So, give me a few weeks and we'll be releasing some new versions with lower points of entry on the cost side. Will likely be a bit more than RMS setup, but much closer.

I'm making an assumption here, that I really should be asking you guys: If we get the XV Level II closer to RMS on the cost side, but still a bit more, will more of you be interested in buying it?

Yes!

I have been waiting for XV to come up with some lower entry level ll prices as well. They would sell a ton if they were more inline with the price that a normal mopar car enthusiast could afford.

Does anybody even know someone who has purchased a Level ll setup or know anybody who has purchased a mopar from them that has the Level ll suspension?

I with they would reply as I am sure there are alot of people here that would buy.

Posted By: Dos Snails

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end ?'s - 01/21/09 12:36 AM

If they would just make a kit for people so they can source their own Corvette pieces Instead of extra markup on these parts.......

Posted By: RokketRide

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end - 01/21/09 02:59 AM

Its only the LCA, Upright and Hub. How much could you really save?

Posted By: Dos Snails

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end - 01/21/09 03:42 AM

Quote:

Its only the LCA, Upright and Hub. How much could you really save?

Your joking right? OK then , I'll take the k member and the upper control arms . I'm fairly confident that you could whack a grand out of there easily. In today's economy any parts sold is better than no parts sold. I'd love to have the level II but at that price a lot of us will pass. All the time spent should not wasted in holding out to sell 5 or so & keep loosing ground to the alterkation sys. ( A nice piece but just not my cup of tea)...

Posted By: dangina

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end ?'s - 02/06/09 10:54 PM

Quote:

dear dqhemi - do you have any issues with bump steer? can you drop in a new 5.7 or 6.1 hemi or is your system meant for small/big block engines? why did you go with a 3-link rear instead of a 5-link(2 upper links and 2 lower links plus a panhard rod?)and why did you use rubber on the panhard instead of a teflon rod end or ball bearing? thanks!...

bump this thread back from the dead!

Posted By: BergmanAutoCraft

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end ?'s - 02/06/09 11:42 PM

The level II can be configured with the new hemi, old hemi, big block, and we have done a couple small blocks too. The 3 link was used as it is a solid, reliable and cost effective way to do the job. It offers plently of adjustability for varying conditions. The bushings for the panhard are urethane.

Posted By: 7DRRunner

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end ?'s - 02/15/09 11:56 PM

lots of good thoughts, reading

thanks

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end ?'s - 08/30/09 01:43 AM

Newbie on this board as far as posting goes, but not so new to the hobby, especially the protouring end of things.
Some know me from the 65 GTO I built three years ago. Well, I have always been a third gen charger lover, especially a 72 SE so I bought one in 07. After researching the net on modern suspensions and looking at all of them, I went with the XV Stage II set up. Yes, is was more expensive, no noone had ever actually put one under a third gen b body yet, so I was somewhat of a test mule. The front parts were boltin as described in the instructions, perfect fit. The rear, not so much. No fault of John and crew, we knew going in there were some differences and they worked with us getting all that worked out. The main PITA was we had to shorten the gas tank by about three inches as there was just not enough real estate there for the panhard bar and OEM tank. A notch here and tweak there and we had it in. Body stiffener kit was a must too, as it was great to use their engineering rather than our trail and error.
For those wondering, this build was a back yard build, but not for the faint of heart and it was nice to have a buddy helping that works at a machine shop. We have made some custom pieces, but nothing anyone with those skills could not duplicate. This car will be shot by Hot Rod for an upcoming feature in two weeks. We are driving it to SEMA in October, it will be in the show, then it will do the Optima Battery Challenge and then drive it back home-Pigeon Forge, Tn. This will be a 4000 mile trip. I will post more pictures elsewhere on the car, but here are a couple shots of the front and rear setup.

Posted By: DAYCLONA

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end ?'s - 08/30/09 02:56 AM

Looking forward to seeing and hearing more about your 3rd gen XV B body build, Bill,......keep us posted

Mike

Posted By: PHJ426

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end ?'s - 10/23/09 03:41 AM

Anyone want to revive this thread.. I need to get my old ratty Chally back on the road and into the 21st century. Any ideas on how to make it handle and stop w/o dropping 30K on this car?

Posted By: Dos Snails

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end ?'s - 10/23/09 03:59 AM

Wow, has it been two years already... still waiting that cheaper level II suspension.

Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end ?'s - 10/23/09 04:18 AM

Quote:

Anyone want to revive this thread.. I need to get my old ratty Chally back on the road and into the 21st century. Any ideas on how to make it handle and stop w/o dropping 30K on this car?

You want to built an EFI'd twin turbo motor and you are worried about money??

I thought you were building a big block 72 Road Runner. What happened with that?

What is the budget on this Challenger suspension upgrade? What level of stuff will you be doing with the car. Autocross, some track days, lots of track days??

Posted By: migsBIG

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end ?'s - 10/23/09 09:07 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Anyone want to revive this thread.. I need to get my old ratty Chally back on the road and into the 21st century. Any ideas on how to make it handle and stop w/o dropping 30K on this car?

You want to built an EFI'd twin turbo motor and you are worried about money??

I thought you were building a big block 72 Road Runner. What happened with that?

What is the budget on this Challenger suspension upgrade? What level of stuff will you be doing with the car. Autocross, some track days, lots of track days??

Steve raises a good point there. Lots of things you can do with stock style parts befor custom mods. Racer or Daily driver? I'll be starting with my 70' challenger and had over a year to think how I want to assemble it. If your looking for something kinda exotic, try a combination of stuff. I'm going with lots of stock and custom stuff, mostly parts I can bolt on or reinforce. If you want good handeling in the rear for it, check out the Magnum Force pro-Link Rear suspension. They only make it for the e-body, but they can buld special orders. I'll considering it for my car as you can do just soo much with leaf springs and swaybar.

Attached picture 5561757-magnumforce-pro-link.jpg

Attached picture 5561757-magnumforce-pro-link.jpg

Posted By: BergmanAutoCraft

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end ?'s - 10/23/09 11:36 AM

A more competitively price level II is in the works. However, our level I will exceed most people's driving ability for those who want bolt on pieces.

Posted By: jcc

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end ?'s - 10/23/09 02:15 PM

How stout is that rear rear upper coilover crossmember? Is it reinforced by anything not seen in the pic?

Posted By: BergmanAutoCraft

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end ?'s - 10/23/09 02:47 PM

If its not it should be. We give plates to reinforce the center. 4 post test revealed the need for reinforcement due to flexing.

Posted By: RokketRide

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end ?'s - 10/23/09 03:31 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Anyone want to revive this thread.. I need to get my old ratty Chally back on the road and into the 21st century. Any ideas on how to make it handle and stop w/o dropping 30K on this car?

You want to built an EFI'd twin turbo motor and you are worried about money??

I thought you were building a big block 72 Road Runner. What happened with that?

What is the budget on this Challenger suspension upgrade? What level of stuff will you be doing with the car. Autocross, some track days, lots of track days??

Steve raises a good point there. Lots of things you can do with stock style parts befor custom mods. Racer or Daily driver? I'll be starting with my 70' challenger and had over a year to think how I want to assemble it. If your looking for something kinda exotic, try a combination of stuff. I'm going with lots of stock and custom stuff, mostly parts I can bolt on or reinforce. If you want good handeling in the rear for it, check out the Magnum Force pro-Link Rear suspension. They only make it for the e-body, but they can buld special orders. I'll considering it for my car as you can do just soo much with leaf springs and swaybar.

Have you looked into the RMS rear kit? Might be a little more bolt-on and its not special order for other bodies.

Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end ?'s - 10/23/09 04:27 PM

Quote:

I'll considering it for my car as you can do just soo much with leaf springs and swaybar.

What are you trying to "do"?

A leaf spring rear is plenty capable. We run a circle track class that has very strict rules, identical crate motors, and very similar chassis. Last year they allowed linked rear suspensions. Leaf spring cars have still won races and are very competitive. A leaf spring car won the most races this year, but didn't win the championship. I'd say that pretty close. We actually run linked and leaf car out of the same race team.

The advantage we see with the linked is it's easier to make fine high level adjustments. But driving the linked car is not as forgiving as the leaf car at the edge of out of control. The linked is more precise, over time and development it will overcome the leaf cars.

Point is, the leaf are pretty close. You'd have to be racing or on a track to see the difference in stop watch. They are easier to tune in regards to spring rate changes, ride height changes, pinion angle, rear steer, wheelbase, anti squat, roll center.

Question is?: do you have the tools, experience, or need to make those modifications after you've got your car together? Changing the coil spring rate and ride height would be what most people are capable of.

If you've got a build with a whole fabricated front clip/k-member, I can see the links. There's got to be a whole lot done to the rest of the suspension systems to be at the level of seeing the advantage of a rear link. Tire, frame stiffening, front suspension, shocks... I think that is way XV sells it as a companion to their stage II setup.

Also if you are building a slammed car with air bags, the links are needed.

Posted By: PHJ426

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end ?'s - 10/24/09 04:08 AM

Quote"You want to built an EFI'd twin turbo motor and yoI thought you were building a big block 72 Road Runner. What happened with that?
u are worried about money?? end quote

Economy tanked the Bird is soon to fly the nest. Cutting back to one hot rod and not going to be spending a ton of dough on it for now.

Quote"What is the budget on this Challenger suspension upgrade? What level of stuff will you be doing with the car. Autocross, some track days, lots of track days?? end quote"

The Challenger will be getting the 508 pump gasser with the Stage heads. Looks like this will get either the six pack I have for now. Currently the car is an old ratty bracket car.

I will need to tighten the suspension up and get rid of the super stock rear springs for some better handeling and to get the rearend back to earth.

Budget wise I really like that stuff Im seeing at Hotchkis on the other thread and like the way that Emax Chally runs out. With a 500 cube torque monster it would be a blast........

But budget is a budget and I dont want to build a track only car this is the one and only hot rod in the garage so it has to cruise, eventually look good, not handle like a pig and get some 1/4 mile and a track day here and there.

Ill be getting the plates to stiffen up the LCA's add a front bar like the H 1 1/4 bar. Not sure if anything more then a 1.00" T bar will be too stiff for the street or not so that will require some research.

I have a Dana 60 in the rear will that rear sway bar clear the center of the Dana 60 or no?

Brakes are stocker discs in front and drums out back. With a big block this will be 3800 to 3900 all day long. So Ill need some better than stock brakes to make it all work well. Maybe a set of Cobra discs front and rear?

Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end ?'s - 10/24/09 05:40 AM

Quote:

But budget is a budget and I dont want to build a track only car this is the one and only hot rod in the garage so it has to cruise, eventually look good, not handle like a pig and get some 1/4 mile and a track day here and there.

Ill be getting the plates to stiffen up the LCA's add a front bar like the H 1 1/4 bar. Not sure if anything more then a 1.00" T bar will be too stiff for the street or not so that will require some research.

1.00" will not be too stiff on an E-body with a big block. I run .99 195 lb/in rate bars in an small block A-body. For me, I probably should have went stiffer but I have put a good 40,000 miles on those T-bars. It was my only driving car for 10 years.

E/B body rates are lower per given diameter and a 1.00" bar in them is 175 lb/in. IMHO, for you I'd choose between 1.00" and 1.06".

Quote:

I have a Dana 60 in the rear will that rear sway bar clear the center of the Dana 60 or no?

The Hotchkis and Hellwig bars run under the center section. They could be an issue with a Dana. Firm Feel rear bars are a copy of stock E-body rear bars. So do stock E-body rear sway bars work with a Dana? I know I've heard people trying it. Can't remember the outcome.

Quote:

Brakes are stocker discs in front and drums out back. With a big block this will be 3800 to 3900 all day long. So Ill need some better than stock brakes to make it all work well. Maybe a set of Cobra discs front and rear?

You could run the Dr Diff setup that allows you to use 70-72 disk spindle with the 12.75 diameter facotry rotors (~$50 ea) that are 1" larger diameter. Then you would have to locate some large diameter caliper adapters (~$75/pr).

If you only want to go out in the track here and there the 12" rotors should be fine to start out with on budget. $20 at the hardware store for ducting and zip ties will do wonders for your brakes at the track.

All that stuff doesn't do much without grip. And grip is tires. Look for 245 wide minimum up front. 17x9" with 275/40/17 will work with 5.25 backspacing up front. A 275/40 isn't a really short sidewall. If you run 18" rims you'll have to run a narrower sidewall so you can fit in the wheelwell. And the tire and rim will weigh more than a 17" setup.

Posted By: 340duster340

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end - 10/24/09 12:58 PM

Quote:

For backyard builders, just beef up the factory system.

Agreed

unless you live next to a skid pad, than just keep the stock suspension geometry and upgrade it.

IMO, the stock suspension is really good when rebuilt right and adjusted correctly.

heck, thats what they ran in NASCAR and TransAM back in the day...

check out firmfeel.com ... i think its the best value for a street driver.

Posted By: 67autocross

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end - 11/07/09 04:03 PM

Sounds like XV are working on a A body level II set up, this could be a nice option.

Posted By: Dos Snails

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end - 11/13/09 11:39 PM

Cool XV did it! http://www.xvmotorsports.com/media/LIIProdDoc2009.pdf A cheaper level II. See I knew that it could be done! ( I still only want the K member & Upper arm though)

Posted By: DmanSRT71

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end - 02/16/10 06:22 PM

Any updates if the frame is available by itself?

Quote:

Cool XV did it! http://www.xvmotorsports.com/media/LIIProdDoc2009.pdf A cheaper level II. See I knew that it could be done! ( I still only want the K member & Upper arm though)

Posted By: Dos Snails

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end - 02/17/10 10:20 PM

I'm sure that if you call they will work with you. I don't think that they would publicly say that you you could.

Posted By: Dos Snails

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end - 02/23/10 04:22 AM

Use excel spreadsheet to open, It's the C5 hard-mount measurements. I'll tell you what, If I can't get one for a decent price I can sure make one!

Attached File

5824571-C5_suspension_dimensions.xls (222 downloads)

Posted By: Dos Snails

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end - 10/29/10 01:28 AM

Speaking of making one,

Posted By: Keith Black®

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end - 10/29/10 05:03 AM

Rear End Systems: Unlawful Racing. I have installed their system and must say I feel it is way ahead of the pack.

Attached picture 6273726-DSC00616(2).jpg

Attached picture 6273726-DSC00616(2).jpg

Posted By: Keith Black®

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end - 10/29/10 05:06 AM

another pic

Attached picture 6273733-fuel-tank-from-rear(s).jpg

Posted By: studio57

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end ?'s - 02/11/11 03:25 PM

Did choose XV Level II but i would not choose it again, quality of the frame and how everything fits is poor.
check out my posts with the pictures:
http://www.protouringmopar.com/showthrea...ication-started

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,77825.0.html

Attached picture 6469637-upper-arm-front-peace.jpg

Attached picture 6469637-upper-arm-front-peace.jpg

Posted By: 540challenger

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end ?'s - 02/11/11 04:02 PM

Quote:

Did choose XV Level II but i would not choose it again, quality of the frame and how everything fits is poor.
check out my posts with the pictures:
http://www.protouringmopar.com/showthrea...ication-started

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,77825.0.html

I like your goal to try to info us however bring back old dead threada is not the way. Start a new post with a topic title not just copying and pasting. And pics in the post willhelp since you have to join the other site to see them

Posted By: studio57

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end ?'s - 02/11/11 04:05 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Did choose XV Level II but i would not choose it again, quality of the frame and how everything fits is poor.
check out my posts with the pictures:
http://www.protouringmopar.com/showthrea...ication-started

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,77825.0.html

I like your goal to try to info us however bring back old dead threada is not the way. Start a new post with a topic title not just copying and pasting. And pics in the post willhelp since you have to join the other site to see them

my qoal is warn people that are thinking on buying Level II kit, i did do so and i was really disapointed on the quality, but ok i will open a new post.

Posted By: 540challenger

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end ?'s - 02/11/11 04:40 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Did choose XV Level II but i would not choose it again, quality of the frame and how everything fits is poor.
check out my posts with the pictures:
http://www.protouringmopar.com/showthrea...ication-started

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,77825.0.html

I like your goal to try to info us however bring back old dead threada is not the way. Start a new post with a topic title not just copying and pasting. And pics in the post willhelp since you have to join the other site to see them

my qoal is warn people that are thinking on buying Level II kit, i did do so and i was really disapointed on the quality, but ok i will open a new post.

Which great that your looking out for us however it looks like your just spamming they way you were doing it. Looking at the thread what a freakin nightmare.

Posted By: studio57

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end ?'s - 02/11/11 04:49 PM

no im not spamming, i did put new topic about this to this forum, please read and check out the pictures first and the deside if i did so.i just wanna people so see what i did reseve

Br
Masi

here is the new post:
https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/show...ID=#Post6469761

my 68 charger : fully aluminum 572 HEMI , 6X TCI 6speed automatic transmission, XV Level II suspension.

Attached picture 6469780-maistiainen1.jpg

Attached picture 6469780-maistiainen1.jpg

Posted By: Dos Snails

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end ?'s - 02/12/11 01:20 AM

Thanks for the info, I'm glad I decided to make my own. Hell I can do that bad....

Posted By: Mark Hughes

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end ?'s - 08/22/14 11:52 AM

I purchased the Wrecks to Riches Roadrunner Barrys Speed Shop built on his TV show. The Magnumforce front end broke in my driveway ut fortunately i5 broke just after driving on Interstate 45. Barry assured me Ron Jenkins the owner of Magnumforce would stand behind his product and pay for all related damage that occurred to my car but his has not been the case so far. They did send a more robust replacement front end and assured me the damage to the car related to the failed front end would be paid for by Magnumforce but his has not been the case. The frame was damaged when the front end broke and according to the experts that reviewed it for me, the weld gave way due to what they believe may have been inadequate welding skills, the fender bent under and so far they do not return calls or emails and now neither does Barry White. My good friend and two time world NHRA champ David Nickens has called three times and put on hold for ten minutes each time before hanging up. Clint is the tech person at Magnumforce and he seemed like a great guy when he was assuring me they would handle all cost for damages. Perhaps someday I will receive a reimbursement check, they have had my receipts for weeks from the folks that did the repairs, but nothing. My attorney is ready to file against them. The 4K they owe me is nothing, its an integrity issue to me. Stand behind your word and product completely.

Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end ?'s - 08/23/14 01:10 AM

Wow... way to resurrect a dead thread!
The transmorpher or whatever they are calling their new front suspension kit does look beefy, but S E R I O U S L Y people...when was the last time anyone saw a FACTORY Mopar suspension fail like these aftermarket kits?
Yeah, the stock stuff isn't the newest thing, it isn't all polished and shiny like the modern coil over replacement stuff is, BUT it is durable and gives lots of warning before a failure. I've seen many, many complaints and episodes of broken welds, poor geometery, failed Heim joints, etc. from the aftermarket replacement kits.
Some people think that newer must be better, but it isn't always the case.

Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end ?'s