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cast or moly??

Posted By: Scott Carl

cast or moly?? - 05/02/10 06:43 PM

If I can get away with it, (Yes I will mic the holes) I want to just re-ring my '74 318. It will be strictly a street car with a mild .478(?) cam (sorry, don't have the specs handy but it probably will be one of Comp's kits), duals through magnum exhaust, a Carter 600 cfm AVS over a stock intake, 904 in front of a 8 3/4 rear with (depending on what I can find and afford), 3.31 or 3.55 gears. I'm looking at Mancinni's engine rebuild kits and my question is this: Do I want cast or moly rings? I thought I read one is better than the other depending on if its a re-ring or full re-bore, but can't find a definitive answer. Of course, if the mic says so I will buy pistons too but I'm hoping to get away as cheaply as possible without worrying about having to do it again next year Also, Mancinni offers two brands of kits; Clevite and Sealed Power. SP is a little higher price. Is it worth the extra couple dollars over the Clevite products?

Thanks,
Scott
Posted By: Supercuda

Re: cast or moly?? - 05/02/10 07:06 PM

Moly is best, easiest on the bores. Cast is dirt cheap which is why the OEM's used to use it, but it eats bores.

However, Moly rings take a different hone finish to seat properly. If your 74 318 came with cast rings and you have a lot of miles it would not surprise me one bit that you would need a bore job. My 87 318 had factory moly rings and even at almost 200k miles it didn't need a bore job, regular oil changes too.

As for which brand to buy, both are/were good names, but it would not surprise me one bit if they are the same parts in different bxes anymore. Only a few manufacturers of that stuff anymore.
Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: cast or moly?? - 05/02/10 07:28 PM

When you open it up you will have a dead smooth bore and I'd also say Moly though I understand cast seals a bit better if the bores have a fair amt of taper/out of round. the trick is to be patient and conservative w the ridge reamer and NOT take out all of the ridge because if you do there will be some areas around the circumference where you are past the ridge and into the wall and #1 pull the blade toward you rather than pushing it around the circumference which means you need to change positions many times as you move around the engine. Get the cheapest set of the two you mentioned and break off one of the old rings in two and grind a hook on the end and grind the edge straight across and use it to CAREFULLY clean the carbon from the grooves and .004"/.003" gap per inch of bore on the top/second rings respectively works for me and read "breakin secrets" at www.mototuneusa.com
Posted By: Scott Carl

Re: cast or moly?? - 05/02/10 10:08 PM

Quote:

When you open it up you will have a dead smooth bore and I'd also say Moly though I understand cast seals a bit better if the bores have a fair amt of taper/out of round.




Thanks guys

Robert, I understand that the bore will be smooth, but can I use new rings as is? Won't I need to hone the cross hatch in them to get them to seat?
Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: cast or moly?? - 05/02/10 11:20 PM

Quote:

Robert, I understand that the bore will be smooth, but can I use new rings as is? Won't I need to hone the cross hatch in them to get them to seat?


Cast rings no, moly yes that has worked good in the past for us but they do need to be loaded hard. but there are schools of thought that moly (& cast for sure) needs a dingleberry hone of the proper grit
Posted By: Bill MeLater

Re: cast or moly?? - 05/03/10 02:23 AM

#320 grit ball hone w/moly rings.Run the hone in both forward and then reverse, then vertically run a red scotchbrite pad through the bores Done it a couple times with excellent results. As far as I know nobody makes file fit rings in cast iron.
Posted By: Scott Carl

Re: cast or moly?? - 05/03/10 02:34 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Robert, I understand that the bore will be smooth, but can I use new rings as is? Won't I need to hone the cross hatch in them to get them to seat?


Cast rings no, moly yes that has worked good in the past for us but they do need to be loaded hard. but there are schools of thought that moly (& cast for sure) needs a dingleberry hone of the proper grit



Thanks again guys.
Robert, I assume by, "need to be loaded hard", you mean broke in hard; Right?
Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: cast or moly?? - 05/03/10 03:01 AM

Quote:

Robert, I assume by, "need to be loaded hard", you mean broke in hard; Right?


right
Posted By: Scott Carl

Re: cast or moly?? - 05/03/10 03:03 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Robert, I assume by, "need to be loaded hard", you mean broke in hard; Right?


right



Posted By: DaytonaTurbo

Re: cast or moly?? - 05/03/10 03:13 AM

If you're just doing a backyard hone'n're-ring, you want cast rings. They are more forgiving where it's said moly rings require a more perfect bore than cast.

I used sealed power cast rings when I did my hone'n're-ring job and it worked out great. However they say the best rings out there for the backyard job are Hastings rings. They're supposed to be a bit softer and conform better to a worn bore.

If you're boring out and going with new pistons, then moly for sure. Doing it yourself in your garage, then go for the cast.
Posted By: GTX MATT

Re: cast or moly?? - 05/03/10 07:46 PM

I dont want to hijack the thread but Im thinking of doing a back yard rebuild on my 440. Just wondering, how much lost compression can actually be gained back by re-ringing? I know it was somewhat of a regular procedure for engines back in the olden days. You would freshen up an engine after so many miles.

My 440 has about 100000 on it. It is tired and you can feel it. The cranking compression is about 120. It uses alot of oil (about a quart every 500 miles), and the breather leaves alot of oil residue on the valve cover, even with a PCV valve. Assuming the bores are within spec, how much would I gain by re-ringing and lapping in the valves?
Posted By: Chris2581

Re: cast or moly?? - 05/03/10 08:04 PM

I use moly rings in everything.I don't care if it's a John Deere tractor,it gets a moly ring set.Use a dingle ball hone and put it together.
Posted By: Dodgem

Re: cast or moly?? - 05/03/10 10:24 PM

cast if you are not doing all the special finishing moly needs
Posted By: Alikazam

Re: cast or moly?? - 05/03/10 10:55 PM

Only the top ring is moly anyway, in a ring set, fyi. The middle ring is cast. That being said, I agree with others go with cast unless bores are really smooth, then dingleberry hone/moly ring set. Good luck

As for the 440 cranking psi, hard to say how much you'd gain, it depends on static and dynamic compression ratio. You'd need to know static CR and cam specs to even get close to being able to estimate what the cranking PSI should be. for instance, my 360 pulled about 210 psi when new with 10.07:1 CR. 222/230 @ .050 cam, 112 lsa, etc.
Posted By: dOc !

Re: cast or moly?? - 05/04/10 02:15 AM

So WHERE is the best shot on buying a dingleberry?
Posted By: DaytonaTurbo

Re: cast or moly?? - 05/04/10 02:17 AM

Quote:

So WHERE is the best shot on buying a dingleberry?




I've bought them on ebay but I did my last rering with the 3-stone hone. Worked just fine.
Posted By: dulcich

Re: cast or moly?? - 05/04/10 03:49 AM

I like to use the moly rings even in a low-buck re-ring. Lasts a lot longer.
-dulcich
Posted By: Scott Carl

Re: cast or moly?? - 05/04/10 04:24 AM

Quote:

Only the top ring is moly anyway, in a ring set, fyi. The middle ring is cast. That being said, I agree with others go with cast unless bores are really smooth, then dingleberry hone/moly ring set. Good luck





My 318 has just at 100k but based on the few engines I've had apart, which I can count without taking my socks off , my bores will be shiny smooth. So I could use cast rings by just removing the ridge and putting the rings in and running it??? I just assumed I would have to break the smoothness regardless of the ring choice. Correct me if I'm wrong but I seem to remember the difference in ring choice determined the angle in degrees of the cross hatch pattern. Not whether you had to hone. Am I going too old school then?? This is from Auto Mechanics class circa 1975
Thanks again
Scott
Posted By: DaytonaTurbo

Re: cast or moly?? - 05/04/10 05:49 AM

It's not the angle, it's how coarse you hone the cylinders. Cast rings take a more coarse grit of a hone than moly.
Posted By: Scott Carl

Re: cast or moly?? - 05/04/10 06:04 AM

OK, remembering what byte or two I've retained about metallurgy, that makes more sense!!
Posted By: dOc !

Re: cast or moly?? - 05/04/10 05:31 PM

Quote:

Quote:

So WHERE is the best shot on buying a dingleberry?




I've bought them on ebay but I did my last rering with the 3-stone hone. Worked just fine.




High-pressure stone-type ? ... or just the lite-spring-pressured one?
Posted By: Bill MeLater

Re: cast or moly?? - 05/05/10 02:02 AM

Just Google "Dingleberry". Should bring up exactly what you're looking for.
Posted By: Bill MeLater

Re: cast or moly?? - 05/05/10 02:07 AM

I've seen 'em at my local NAPA. Or you could try here http://www.flexhone.com/
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