Moparts

Firm Feel or Manual steering

Posted By: dd340

Firm Feel or Manual steering - 04/08/10 09:57 PM

I have never been completely happy with the powersteering on my 69 dart and I am considering swapping to either a firm feel unit or mayby to a fast ratio manual. Any experience on these setups and if so what is your preference?
Posted By: dirtybee

Re: Firm Feel or Manual steering - 04/08/10 10:20 PM

i didn't like my power steering either even after i $pent on a rebuilt box so i ended up going manual. less things to leak or break and less weight. pretty cheap swap too if you find a descent used box.
Posted By: HealthServices

Re: Firm Feel or Manual steering - 04/08/10 11:16 PM

I'm thinking of installing a steering quickener myself. I don't care for the over assist the factory has and I don't like manual steering either. The steering quickener will reduce the amount of assist to you as well as reduce the amount of turns lock to lock.
Posted By: Pacnorthcuda

Re: Firm Feel or Manual steering - 04/08/10 11:21 PM

Quote:

I'm thinking of installing a steering quickener myself. I don't care for the over assist the factory has and I don't like manual steering either. The steering quickener will reduce the amount of assist to you as well as reduce the amount of turns lock to lock.



I was hoping a fast ratio arm would have the desired side-effect of firming up the steering on my PS 'Cuda but the effect on the assist was negligible. Maybe a little. Still over assisted.
I swear E-booger had a simple shadetree mod to the box to lessen assist but I don't remember the specifics.
Posted By: HealthServices

Re: Firm Feel or Manual steering - 04/08/10 11:29 PM

I was thinking about one of these...



If that don't work maybe I'll add a firm feel.
Posted By: dd340

Re: Firm Feel or Manual steering - 04/08/10 11:43 PM

Quote:

I was thinking about one of these...



If that don't work maybe I'll add a firm feel.


How does it work and how much is it?
Posted By: dd340

Re: Firm Feel or Manual steering - 04/08/10 11:46 PM



I was hoping a fast ratio arm would have the desired side-effect of firming up the steering on my PS 'Cuda but the effect on the assist was negligible. Maybe a little. Still over assisted.
I swear E-booger had a simple shadetree mod to the box to lessen assist but I don't remember the specifics.



for me it is less about the over assist and more about the precision steering which seems to be lacking in the power steering box.
Posted By: HealthServices

Re: Firm Feel or Manual steering - 04/09/10 04:14 AM

Hotchkis has it on their E body and it works really well according to them. But I don't think we are suppose to know about this product since they do not sell it. I spoke to tech about it when they had open house once and he showed me it. Short of going to a rack and pinion, this is it. Every time I ask about it on the forum, they act like they have me on ‘ignore’


You have to cut the steering column and this is spliced into it, and reduces the amount of turns either 1.5 to 1 or 2.0 to 1 depending on which one you buy.
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Firm Feel or Manual steering - 04/09/10 06:17 AM

Circle track guys have been using these things for years, rally drivers too. They are called steering quickeners. Howe also makes them... they are in the Summit catalog. They make them in different ratios.
The power steering in most all mopars has always seemed to be overboosted. A larger pulley on the pump will help some. The police car firm feel chuck is slightly better than the standard unit. Using the longer "fast ratio" pitman and idler arms will help too. Having your unit rebuilt to give more effort and feel is probably the single most effective move you can make though.
Posted By: dfsmopars

Re: Firm Feel or Manual steering - 04/09/10 10:34 AM

For my last two restorations I have rebuilt the steering box to firm feel in both PS systems. One was an a-body the other a b-body and I liked it a lot in both.
Posted By: DennisH

Re: Firm Feel or Manual steering - 04/09/10 12:29 PM

Firm Feel.
Posted By: challengeher

Re: Firm Feel or Manual steering - 04/12/10 05:12 PM

I've got the stage two box on my challenger, and I like it a lot. I've had other friends complain that it's "fake road feel" but to me it just gets rid of the slop.

I would make sure all your suspension/bushings/tires are good as well, because your steering box won't be able to do much for you if the front end is all worn out.
Posted By: BergmanAutoCraft

Re: Firm Feel or Manual steering - 09/06/10 04:21 AM

I was thinking about this too. You can only firm up slow steering so much. True, the rebuilt boxes are better, but the real problem is ratio - no getting around it. A 1.5:1 would do the trick.
Posted By: jcc

Re: Firm Feel or Manual steering - 09/06/10 05:35 AM

Not sure where this thread is headed. The ratio multipler box of 1.5 or 2.0 would in IMO make a power steering box WAY too fast, and on a manual box it would likely be WAY too hard to steer/turn under 30mph? without arms the size of the Roc (Not knowing front end weight/tire size makes that a guess). Additionally I can't believe the quickner box is really robust enough for daily driving/parking on a full size street car.

IMO, Firm Feel stage 3
Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: Firm Feel or Manual steering - 09/06/10 06:01 AM

Quote:

Not sure where this thread is headed. The ratio multipler box of 1.5 or 2.0 would in IMO make a power steering box WAY too fast,



I thought so too. But everyone that has driven that Hotchkis Emax Challenger loves it.

For some reason I having trouble with the math... 1.5:1 reduction on a 16:1 steering box is what resulting ratio??

10.667 or 12:1 or something else?


Quote:

.. Additionally I can't believe the quickner box is really robust enough for daily driving/parking on a full size street car...



Circle track cars take a bunch of abuse. The toughness on a deal like that are the impacts on the gears. Like from potholes, curbs, etc. Well, on a circle track car they hit/brush walls at 90-100 mph.

The stock steering column bearings on our cars are nothing too HD or special. I think most of the load are at the box.
Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: Firm Feel or Manual steering - 09/06/10 06:04 AM

The problem with this quickner is that is requires quite a bit of fabrication and time. And it requires a core column. I talked with the guy who made it.

Here's some better pictures.

Attached picture 6179918-HotchkisTrackDaySm64.JPG
Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: Firm Feel or Manual steering - 09/06/10 06:07 AM

more

Attached picture 6179922-HotchkisTrackDaySm65.JPG
Posted By: babarracuda

Re: Firm Feel or Manual steering - 09/06/10 02:33 PM

Do you have strong arms? A quick ratio box requires a LOT more effort and a long pitman arm will not clear headers. I have Firm Feel #2 and love it.
Posted By: jcc

Re: Firm Feel or Manual steering - 09/06/10 03:03 PM

Quote:

The ratio multipler box of 1.5 or 2.0 would in IMO make a power steering box WAY too fast,



I thought so too. But everyone that has driven that Hotchkis Emax Challenger loves it.




I suspect the ratio is likely speed dependant, ie slow speeds a slow ratio, med speeds a fast ratio, and ala superspeedway/nascar speeds, they go back to a slow ratio to likely make more precise steering corrections and prevent oversteering, is my guess.
Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: Firm Feel or Manual steering - 09/06/10 03:30 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

The ratio multipler box of 1.5 or 2.0 would in IMO make a power steering box WAY too fast,



I thought so too. But everyone that has driven that Hotchkis Emax Challenger loves it.



I suspect the ratio is likely speed dependant, ie slow speeds a slow ratio, med speeds a fast ratio, and ala superspeedway/nascar speeds, they go back to a slow ratio to likely make more precise steering corrections and prevent oversteering, is my guess.



No, those multipliers are just straight gear reduction boxes. Nothing fancy with variable ratios.

On a 1.5:1 multiplier the input makes 1 revolution the output make 1.5 revolutions. Ok, thinking this word problem though...

So 2.0 turns of the steering wheel then into a 1.5:1 reducer box yields 3.0 turns of the steering shaft into the steering box.

Stock 16:1 power steering cars are 3.6 turns lock to lock.

So .4 turns at the steering wheel into a 1.5:1 reducer box yields .6 turns of the steering shaft into the steering box....

So additively, using a 1.5:1 gear reducer in line with the steering shaft with a 16:1 power steering box will give you 2.4 turns lock to lock at the steering wheel and yeilds 3.6 turns into the steering box.

I think the T/A fast ratio is 2.7 turns lock to lock.

I think I answered my own question.
Posted By: thedriver

Re: Firm Feel or Manual steering - 09/06/10 03:44 PM

i put a manual box in my car, considerably more effort with the 16:1 flaming river box, but i doubt i ll regret that until im like really stinkin old. for now it works great.
I dont miss throwin a p/s belt everynow and again at 6500rpm, less weight, one lesss thing to leak, car is now easier to work on.
I've never looked back!
Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: Firm Feel or Manual steering - 09/06/10 03:53 PM

Quote:

i put a manual box in my car, considerably more effort with the 16:1 flaming river box, but i doubt i ll regret that until im like really stinkin old. for now it works great.
I dont miss throwin a p/s belt everynow and again at 6500rpm, less weight, one lesss thing to leak, car is now easier to work on.
I've never looked back!



What size front tires do you have?
Posted By: stateroadhog

Re: Firm Feel or Manual steering - 09/06/10 04:03 PM

I put firm feel stage 2 box in 70 B-Body all new front end rebuild. It works great way better than the police firm feel. I would go to stage 3 if I could.
Posted By: thedriver

Re: Firm Feel or Manual steering - 09/06/10 05:21 PM

Quote:

Quote:

i put a manual box in my car, considerably more effort with the 16:1 flaming river box, but i doubt i ll regret that until im like really stinkin old. for now it works great.
I dont miss throwin a p/s belt everynow and again at 6500rpm, less weight, one lesss thing to leak, car is now easier to work on.
I've never looked back!



What size front tires do you have?




215/70/15.
Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: Firm Feel or Manual steering - 09/06/10 05:25 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

i put a manual box in my car, considerably more effort with the 16:1 flaming river box, but i doubt i ll regret that until im like really stinkin old. for now it works great.
I dont miss throwin a p/s belt everynow and again at 6500rpm, less weight, one lesss thing to leak, car is now easier to work on.
I've never looked back!



What size front tires do you have?




215/70/15.



The wider and more grippy the tire the harder it is to steer. 235/60 wide and lower profile 225 wide tires will be noticably harder to steer.
Posted By: dd340

Re: Firm Feel or Manual steering - 09/06/10 06:05 PM

I didn't realize this post had gotten revived. I ended up getting a newly rebuilt manual fast ratio box (about 3 3/4 turns)from ebay and it made a world of difference when driving on the highway. It is far more precise and doesn't feel twitchy like the powersteering. It is a bit of a bear to drive in a parking lot but otherwise much better. Wheel return is also much better, which I like. I think it would be tough to drive in bigger car but for an abody it is pretty slick.
Posted By: RV2

Re: Firm Feel or Manual steering - 09/06/10 06:33 PM

Do you remember who the seller was and what did you have to pay for it?
Posted By: thedriver

Re: Firm Feel or Manual steering - 09/06/10 06:37 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

i put a manual box in my car, considerably more effort with the 16:1 flaming river box, but i doubt i ll regret that until im like really stinkin old. for now it works great.
I dont miss throwin a p/s belt everynow and again at 6500rpm, less weight, one lesss thing to leak, car is now easier to work on.
I've never looked back!



What size front tires do you have?




215/70/15.



The wider and more grippy the tire the harder it is to steer. 235/60 wide and lower profile 225 wide tires will be noticably harder to steer.



but honestly, the only time i notice "effort" in the wheel, is parking stall driving, as far as making corners, etc, there is no real effort there...plus you can really feeel where your tires are on the road.
Posted By: dd340

Re: Firm Feel or Manual steering - 09/06/10 08:47 PM

Quote:

Do you remember who the seller was and what did you have to pay for it?



As far a I know it was just someone selling a box they didn't want anymore. He also included the power to manual steering coupler. I won it for $225 and it only had a few miles on it. I thought it was a great deal in the end.
Posted By: jcc

Re: Firm Feel or Manual steering - 09/06/10 10:08 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

The ratio multipler box of 1.5 or 2.0 would in IMO make a power steering box WAY too fast,



I thought so too. But everyone that has driven that Hotchkis Emax Challenger loves it.



I suspect the ratio is likely speed dependant, ie slow speeds a slow ratio, med speeds a fast ratio, and ala superspeedway/nascar speeds, they go back to a slow ratio to likely make more precise steering corrections and prevent oversteering, is my guess.



No, those multipliers are just straight gear reduction boxes. Nothing fancy with variable ratios.




We obviously are on two different pages. Not sure how "variable" ratios got injected. However, it seems to me, that different ratios are favorable for different uses/speeds cars are driven, again slow ratio for superspeedways, fast for med speed track use, slow for around town street and parking. So you pick your poison, unless you can tell me about this variable ratio box for an old Mopar. Make sense?
Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: Firm Feel or Manual steering - 09/07/10 01:53 AM

Quote:


We obviously are on two different pages. Not sure how "variable" ratios got injected. However, it seems to me, that different ratios are favorable for different uses/speeds cars are driven, again slow ratio for superspeedways, fast for med speed track use, slow for around town street and parking. So you pick your poison, unless you can tell me about this variable ratio box for an old Mopar. Make sense?



Ok, now I understand what you were saying.

I think the superspeedway and bonniville stuff will have a slower ratio. Even drag cars.

But if was power steering I don't see much of a downfall to quicker ratio for in the city driving.

I think a lot of new performance car have 12:1 or 10:1 steering ratios.
Posted By: lakeeffect

Re: Firm Feel or Manual steering - 04/15/12 05:41 AM

I purchased a flaming river 16-1 box. Its real nice although its iron compared to the factory aluminum i think the weight difference is with a pound or two. This i think is because the size of the FR unit is actually smaller area wise than the factory aluminum.

Steering quickener wise.
My father has raced circle track for 30 years. He said he tryed a 2-1 Coleman Quickener on a Limited Late a few years ago. It was just too stiff. it was a 16-1 vega box. He went power.

The FR unit is still a handful at 6'3 210 pounds with 225-50-15 and an all steel small block A body during auto x. Hopefully soon ill be trading for a firm feel/box/Sweet mfg steer shaft/ 1.5 Coleman.

Attached picture 7165274-StLLMHeat2AndySweetland.jpg
Posted By: ScottSmith_Harms

Re: Firm Feel or Manual steering - 04/15/12 05:56 AM

I went with the StageIII FF box for my Duster. 2 Reasons, it's an original power steering car and I want to keep it all original appearing, and secondly, I've driven several cars with the StageIII boxes and loved them all!
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