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.960 or 1.00 torsion bars, any diffrence in handeling?

Posted By: migsBIG

.960 or 1.00 torsion bars, any diffrence in handeling? - 02/19/10 06:34 PM

I have a set of new Mopar Performance .960 diam torsion bar and was wondering if it's worth stepping up the the Just Suspension 1.00 in diam bars they have advertised. I am into agressive street driving and would mind doing some other events that include some nice twist and turns.

Here is the info:

1970 challenger
360 5.9 crate engine
automatic 727 low stall speed
magnum force tubular/adjustable control arms and dropped spindles
Firm feel stage two ps box fast ratio arm
kyb shocks
stock weight in frontend
still out on tires and wheels, probably start off with 15x7 steel rims on cooper cobras
larget tie rods and solid sleeves
still out on disc brakes
subframe connectors
rear suspension is still up to debate


what would you suggest?
Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: .960 or 1.00 torsion bars, any diffrence in handeling? - 02/19/10 06:45 PM

Yes, there will be a difference. The rate of a .96 is 135 lbs/in and a 1.00 is 160 lbs/in

For comparison, a .86 /6 E-body bar is 90 lbs/in and a .92 Hemi bar is 115 lbs/in.

Is it worth the $159 to buy 1.00" t-bars? That's tough to tell.

Quote:

I have a set of new Mopar Performance .960 diam torsion bar and was wondering if it's worth stepping up the the Just Suspension 1.00 in diam bars they have advertised. I am into agressive street driving and would mind doing some other events that include some nice twist and turns.
....

Posted By: migsBIG

Re: .960 or 1.00 torsion bars, any diffrence in handeling? - 02/19/10 06:51 PM

their prices went up to $179, but it's more of if ir will be worth spending $30 more or just not sell my bars and just work with them.
Posted By: Lefty

Re: .960 or 1.00 torsion bars, any diffrence in handeling? - 02/19/10 07:06 PM

Quote:

I am into agressive street driving and would mind doing some other events that include some nice twist and turns.



I have 1" in the 66 Coronet and find the spring rate perfect for aggressive driving with the heavy 440 up front. They probably would feel stiffer in your car because of the lighter weight of the small block. I would start with the .960 and invest in a set of Hotchkiss sway bars. You could always swap in the bigger bars later.
Posted By: coronet1966d

Re: .960 or 1.00 torsion bars, any diffrence in handeling? - 02/19/10 07:15 PM

go big or go home
Posted By: migsBIG

Re: .960 or 1.00 torsion bars, any diffrence in handeling? - 02/19/10 08:21 PM

Quote:

go big or go home



I was going to go with a big block, but I have everything for the crate engine to just drop in. I will be doing more street driving, but would love to have the better handeling if it's noticeable. Just want it done right the first time so I won't have to redo it later.
Posted By: AndyF

Re: .960 or 1.00 torsion bars, any diffrence in handeling? - 02/20/10 12:03 AM

Torsion bar stiffness is a factor of diameter to the fourth power. So a small change in diameter makes a big difference in road feel.
Posted By: jcc

Re: .960 or 1.00 torsion bars, any diffrence in handeling? - 02/20/10 01:20 AM

You never have heard anybody on Moparts ever say 1" is too big, actually, bigger then 1" might be better yet, say 1.03-4? IMO. .96" is a waste of time & $.
Posted By: Skeptic

Re: .960 or 1.00 torsion bars, any diffrence in handeling? - 02/20/10 02:00 AM

I got a set of them for my A body, I have .92 bars now and wasn't planning on changing them, but for 159.00 I snapped 'em up
Posted By: jrlegacy23

Re: .960 or 1.00 torsion bars, any diffrence in handeling? - 02/20/10 03:01 AM

If you go to just suspensions website, they still have them for $159. I do not know if the shipping is still free though.
Posted By: migsBIG

Re: .960 or 1.00 torsion bars, any diffrence in handeling? - 02/20/10 03:09 PM

thanks for the help everyone, going to check out the larger bars.
Posted By: MoparMarq

Re: .960 or 1.00 torsion bars, any diffrence in handeling? - 02/20/10 05:25 PM

Quote:

If you go to just suspensions website, they still have them for $159. I do not know if the shipping is still free though.



Negative, Ghost Rider. Shipping was 30.25 to Seattle area. At 159 bucks, I couldn't pass it up either...
Posted By: ledft79

Re: .960 or 1.00 torsion bars, any diffrence in handeling? - 02/20/10 05:34 PM

Big bars = Big improvement.

Attached picture 5818782-mysecondchallenger3.JPG
Posted By: mkdart

Re: .960 or 1.00 torsion bars, any diffrence in handeling? - 02/20/10 08:24 PM

I'm glad I saw this post.I ordered a pair today,159.95 plus 21 bucks shipping to Ohio. Mike
Posted By: Andrewh

Re: .960 or 1.00 torsion bars, any diffrence in handeling? - 02/20/10 08:45 PM

the ebay one is 179 with free shipping. So depending on where you live, ordering direct can save a few bucks.
Posted By: moparrulzzz

Re: .960 or 1.00 torsion bars, any diffrence in handeling? - 02/21/10 10:44 PM

Quote:

I'm glad I saw this post.I ordered a pair today,159.95 plus 21 bucks shipping to Ohio. Mike




Me too just ordered a set. Was getting ready to call Mancini tomorrow and get a set of .096.
180.33 to my door!!
Posted By: Roppa440

Re: .960 or 1.00 torsion bars, any diffrence in handeling? - 02/22/10 10:42 AM

The actual rate you get at the wheel from a torsion bar depends on how long your lower control arm is (B/E different to A) and how wide your wheels/tires are.

The longer the LCA and the wider the wheel, the lower the actual rating you get at the wheel.

Take that into account if you are trying to maintain a handling balance front to back.

In fact on the subject of balance, if you just fit stiffer front suspension without taking into consideration how stiff the rear is you will just end up with a car that understeers badly.

If you have understeer with a 0.96 bar you will make it worse going to a 1.00 bar.
If you have oversteer with the 0.96 you would be right to try a 1.00 bar.
Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: .960 or 1.00 torsion bars, any diffrence in handeling? - 02/22/10 11:44 AM

Quote:

The actual rate you get at the wheel from a torsion bar depends on how long your lower control arm is (B/E different to A) and how wide your wheels/tires are.

The longer the LCA and the wider the wheel, the lower the actual rating you get at the wheel.

Take that into account if you are trying to maintain a handling balance front to back.

In fact on the subject of balance, if you just fit stiffer front suspension without taking into consideration how stiff the rear is you will just end up with a car that understeers badly.

If you have understeer with a 0.96 bar you will make it worse going to a 1.00 bar.
If you have oversteer with the 0.96 you would be right to try a 1.00 bar.



The rates I posted where for E/B body length LCA's.

I thought changes in wheel offset effect the spring rate rather than width. The normal of the forces on the contact patch is the center which is also the center of the rim width.

I think these cars have so much roll in stock form, a large contribution to the understeer is due to tire losing geometry. Reduce the roll and let the much better modern tires grip in the front. In stock form these cars are balanced. They understeer greatly unless there is enough power to thottle oversteer.

I went to 1" front T-bar in an A-body (stiffer than a B/E) with just the stock front sway bar. But I had 225/60/15 tires. Car definitely increased it's cornering power. It still understeer at the limit, but the limit was raised.

I then added a rear sway bar with same stock front sway bar and same 1" T-bar. A little oversteer. Next I put on a 1 1/8 front sway bar. Seemed pretty balanced. Now I'm trying a 1 1/4 front sway bar. Seems to understeer. But now I've got old hard tires. I could play with my adjustable front shock too... On and on it goes...
Posted By: Roppa440

Re: .960 or 1.00 torsion bars, any diffrence in handeling? - 02/22/10 02:03 PM

I quite agree with you mate. Except that you have to consider the full length of the "lever" on the suspension. Which is the outer edge of the wheel.

I was just trying to keep it simple and thought it was worth mentioning because there are people out there that don't realise what effects they might end up causing.

A mate of mine with a small block fitted uprated springs and sway bar to the rear of his car and wondered why he was suddenly oversteering like crazy...
Posted By: roadrunninMark

Re: .960 or 1.00 torsion bars, any diffrence in handeling? - 02/22/10 02:50 PM

Would you guys recommend the 1" bar for my instance, still building the car. This is what I have.

69 B body, 526" RB stroker, pro street (tubbed with 4 link rear) real wide rear tires, want to use adjustable UCAs up front, otherwise pretty much stock components for front suspension. I will use a descent size front tire, say a 7" front rim (15" diamter). Obviously it wont be a G machine, more for fun and car shows. I dont think I will drag race it either. Too much expense and time to have it go into the wall, but I would like to run it to see what it would do.

Thanks,
Mark
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: .960 or 1.00 torsion bars, any diffrence in handeling? - 02/22/10 02:54 PM

Quote:

The actual rate you get at the wheel from a torsion bar depends on how long your lower control arm is (B/E different to A) and how wide your wheels/tires are.



Are you sure about this? I had always thought that, because the torsion bar is directly connected to the lower control arm inner pivot, the spring rate is the same as the wheel rate, regardless of the length of the LCA or the wheel offset - in contrast to any coil spring setup which necessarily has to be mounted somewhere between the control arm outer pivot and inner pivot and so only a percentage of the spring rate would act on the wheel, the actual amount depending on the length of the control arm and where on the arm the spring is attached (and in which case, the wheel offset would move the outer pivot and so affect the ratios and the percentage of the spring rate acting on the wheel).

Of course, I've been wrong before. . . .
Posted By: Roppa440

Re: .960 or 1.00 torsion bars, any diffrence in handeling? - 02/23/10 01:07 PM

Quote:

Quote:

The actual rate you get at the wheel from a torsion bar depends on how long your lower control arm is (B/E different to A) and how wide your wheels/tires are.



Are you sure about this? I had always thought that, because the torsion bar is directly connected to the lower control arm inner pivot, the spring rate is the same as the wheel rate, regardless of the length of the LCA or the wheel offset - in contrast to any coil spring setup which necessarily has to be mounted somewhere between the control arm outer pivot and inner pivot and so only a percentage of the spring rate would act on the wheel, the actual amount depending on the length of the control arm and where on the arm the spring is attached (and in which case, the wheel offset would move the outer pivot and so affect the ratios and the percentage of the spring rate acting on the wheel).

Of course, I've been wrong before. . . .



Think of the torsion bar as a bolt you need to brake loose. You would not use that short stubby wrench if it was tight would you? You would use a long wrench to get the leverage.

The LCA is a lever that is twisting the end of the torsion bar. The longer the LCA the less the bar has to twist if you lift the wheel an inch. So the easier it is to twist the bar with the same force. Which is the same thing as lowering the spring rate of the bar.

I am not very good at explaining things so sorry if that sounds patronising or is even more confusing.
Posted By: nd65

Re: .960 or 1.00 torsion bars, any diffrence in handeling? - 02/23/10 01:07 PM

I went from the 318 bars to the 1" with a rubber suspension on my 65 Coronet. I love the 1" bars. I run a 7" front wheel and cheapo Monroe gas shocks.

They do not ride harsh or rough at all. I live on a rough country road. It is a nice improvement.

Good luck.
Posted By: roadrunninMark

Re: .960 or 1.00 torsion bars, any diffrence in handeling? - 02/23/10 04:50 PM

Hi Roppa,

Do you think the 1" bar would be good for my setup (please pan up a few posts, roadrunninmark)?

Thanks,
Mark
Posted By: migsBIG

Re: .960 or 1.00 torsion bars, any diffrence in handeling? - 02/23/10 10:09 PM

Thanks for all the input and refreshing my ideas on what the frontend should be and how it should be set up. From the discription, I also need to figure out what leaf springs I need for the challenger. I'l gonna put myorder in tomorrow for the torsion bars, and see what mods i can do to some stock parts to make them fit/work better.
Posted By: HerboldRacing

Re: .960 or 1.00 torsion bars, any diffrence in handeling? - 02/23/10 10:46 PM

My wife says she can feel the difference between 0.96" and 1.00" diameter.
Posted By: Wedgeman

Re: .960 or 1.00 torsion bars, any diffrence in handeling? - 02/23/10 11:35 PM

Lollllllll

Good one there !!!!
Posted By: jcc

Re: .960 or 1.00 torsion bars, any diffrence in handeling? - 02/24/10 12:57 AM

Quote:

My wife says she can feel the difference between 0.96" and 1.00" diameter.



Too bad you've only got a .84" bar
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: .960 or 1.00 torsion bars, any diffrence in handeling? - 02/24/10 03:01 AM

Quote:

I am not very good at explaining things so sorry if that sounds patronizing or is even more confusing.



Not patronizing at all, and your explanation sounds reasonable to me. Thanks for responding.
Posted By: Roppa440

Re: .960 or 1.00 torsion bars, any diffrence in handeling? - 02/24/10 01:30 PM

Quote:

Hi Roppa,

Do you think the 1" bar would be good for my setup (please pan up a few posts, roadrunninmark)?

Thanks,
Mark



I use 1" bars on my heavy 440 Challenger in conjunction with a 1 1/8th front sway bar.

But I have also uprated the rear springs. They are custom made to my spec (about 30% uprated from 440/Hemi spec) and are used with a 3/4" rear sway bar. But the springs are moved in 5/8ths each side for tyre clearence which again alters the actual wheel rate.

If I had to drive on dirt roads I would have gone softer. But a lot of how the car feels is down to the shocks.

One friend has even thicker torsion bars on his Challenger. But it does not feel as stiff as mine. Another has stock 383 suspension on his 440 Challenger. But the adjustable shocks make it handle really well and with comfort.

I made a mistake in fitting KYB shocks (but they were all I could afford at the time) and will soon be fitting adjustable QA1 shocks. I think my ride will benefit a lot from them.

But as it stands now my Challenger corners really flat and fast. Very slight understeer when pushed very hard and oversteer on demand from controlled application of the throttle.
Posted By: migsBIG

Re: .960 or 1.00 torsion bars, any diffrence in handeling? - 02/24/10 06:08 PM

nice to know about the QA1 shocks. It's still looking into a good leaf spring, so far that's still in the air.
Posted By: jrlegacy23

Re: .960 or 1.00 torsion bars, any diffrence in handeling? - 05/19/10 01:30 AM

Did you decide on a leaf yet? Anything installed? How does it handle
Posted By: lokalik

Re: .960 or 1.00 torsion bars, any diffrence in handeling? - 05/19/10 12:38 PM

hey guys great post. glad my wife didn't read this one. understeer and oversteer was brought up, can someone explain just what that is and the cause and effect. i think i have an idea of what it is, probably worng though. thanks
Posted By: cudazappa

Re: .960 or 1.00 torsion bars, any diffrence in handeling? - 05/19/10 03:23 PM

just a few notes from my setup with 1" t-bars

stock suspension, rebuilt, new rubber bushings (when I bought the car) and no-name shocks. Stock 318 leaf springs.

Upgraded 1" bars, 1 1/8" front sway bar, 12" rotors, SG, and 245/45 17 tires. Fiberglass hood (weight reduction)



Car handles MUCH more modern, but there are shortcomings when driven more aggressive than street. On the street its an absolute pleasure to drive. I plan on upgrading to XHD leafs soon w/ no sway bar. The rear leafs are soft. and would be very balanced at that stage. The bars are not too much for the shocks. In an agressive situation, right now, the street tires are the weak link. I'm remedying that. Further development for this car will go beyond 1" t-bars, but overall, for a street car they are great. Some taller sidewall tires (15") and even the potholes won't annoy you.
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