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Solutions for "Morning Sickness"

Posted By: Chilort

Solutions for "Morning Sickness" - 12/30/09 06:55 AM

I've got my 727 out and apart. We're going to start putting it back together tomorrow and I'm looking for solutions to the "morning sickness" problem these transmissions have (i.e. they won't go in gear unless allowed to idle in RNDL for 30 sec, P won't work). This one has had it pretty bad too. All I have to do is let it sit overnight and it won't go in gear right away.

I did a search and so far I've seen:
1) Bad converter (getting a new one from TurboAction anyway)
2) "Converter drain back valve" on the "top of the valve body" has some crud in it" (I cleaned the VB myself a few years ago and didn't see anything)
3) Pump bearing clearance is too loose

Anything else we should check for that might cause this?

The pump itself looks to be in great condition but we will double check the tolerances before we put it back together of course.

Thanks!
Posted By: 1_WILD_RT

Re: Solutions for "Morning Sickness" - 12/30/09 07:09 AM

You've covered the normal causes.. That said I would add a TF-2 shift kit as it has a replacement shift valve that changes the convertor fill path so the convertor is filled in park.. Plus the improved shift quality..
Posted By: Chilort

Re: Solutions for "Morning Sickness" - 12/30/09 03:10 PM

I'll see what we can find out about the fill-in-park deal. We're going to be using a custom VB. If things are out of tolerance or are incorrect on this trans I want to fix it.
Posted By: moparx

Re: Solutions for "Morning Sickness" - 12/30/09 03:47 PM

transgo has a kit that fixes the drainback problem by allowing the converter to fill in park. SK-TF-SC-A works great ! if you can't locate it, let me know. my local trans shop can get 'em. if i remember, they are about $25 or so.
Posted By: stumpy

Re: Solutions for "Morning Sickness" - 12/30/09 03:48 PM

Depending on the custom valve body you may not have to worry about drainback. What VB are you going to use?
Posted By: Chilort

Re: Solutions for "Morning Sickness" - 12/30/09 04:01 PM

Wish I could tell you. A friend of mine is working on custom valve bodies based on his years of working on 727s and the aid of some other 727 expert friends. He's used a few of them so far but hasn't gotten much feedback. I'll keep my stock '68 VB (just in case) and use one of his and give him some feedback.
Posted By: ScottSmith_Harms

Re: Solutions for "Morning Sickness" - 12/30/09 04:02 PM

Don't get pregnant!
Posted By: Chilort

Re: Solutions for "Morning Sickness" - 12/31/09 06:16 AM

No joke, right.
Posted By: Dodgem

Re: Solutions for "Morning Sickness" - 12/31/09 01:22 PM

Well change all the seals and sealing rings for sure.
Posted By: PC-CHARGER

Re: Solutions for "Morning Sickness" - 12/31/09 03:40 PM

Sonnax make a replacement manual valve that charges the converter in park as well as a Pressure regulator valve that helps prevent converter drainback. Here's a link to both fixes and Sonnax's explantion.

http://www.sonnax.com/part_summary.php?id=5013&pl=3

http://www.sonnax.com/part_summary.php?id=3474&pl=3
Posted By: Posest

Re: Solutions for "Morning Sickness" - 12/31/09 06:34 PM

My brand new tranny from CRT does this also. I just live with it. It has done it from the start. Oh well.
Posted By: MoparforLife

Re: Solutions for "Morning Sickness" - 12/31/09 07:34 PM

So what is the big deal??? It isn't like it is doing any damage. Are you in that much of a hurry that you can't run it a few seconds in neutral before starting out?? Heck if you start the engine in in neutral the converter will be full before the oil pressure builds to peak in the engine.
Posted By: Posest

Re: Solutions for "Morning Sickness" - 12/31/09 08:04 PM

That is pretty much what I do. I have no troubles with this start up procedure.
Posted By: Chilort

Re: Solutions for "Morning Sickness" - 12/31/09 11:04 PM

Quote:

Sonnax make a replacement manual valve that charges the converter in park as well as a Pressure regulator valve that helps prevent converter drainback. Here's a link to both fixes and Sonnax's explantion.

http://www.sonnax.com/part_summary.php?id=5013&pl=3

http://www.sonnax.com/part_summary.php?id=3474&pl=3



Thanks for the links!

We've replaced all the seals and what not. If it drains back still (which it shouldn't, regardless of how much of a pain it is or not) I'll look into some of these other solutions.
Posted By: charge70

Re: Solutions for "Morning Sickness" - 01/01/10 01:03 PM

You may want to do all these upgrades now.I rebuilt the 727 for my brothers 70 Charger.Replaced every seal/steel and rubber/ possible and replaced all the bushings and it still has a drain back problem.Do it now before you put it back in the car.Just my John.
Posted By: Chilort

Re: Solutions for "Morning Sickness" - 01/01/10 04:27 PM

I agree, but will have to wait until I get it home (from Ft. Wayne, In to Atlanta, GA) and can get the valve body back out. I took some pictures of the work we did but did not get a good picture of the pressure valve.

According to the Sonnax instructions, the pressure relief valve has to look like the one pictured in the instructions for the manual valve (the one that fixes the no fill in park issue). I've got a picture of part of the pressure valve but it isn't exactly the same. My valve body is a '68 and they are a little different from some of the newer valve bodies (i.e. hardest shifting stock valve body, no high pressure relief)

I may need to look into the TF-2 or Transgo kit mentioned earlier.
Posted By: dOrk !

Re: Solutions for "Morning Sickness" - 01/01/10 04:37 PM

Quote:

So what is the big deal??? It isn't like it is doing any damage. Are you in that much of a hurry that you can't run it a few seconds in neutral before starting out?? Heck if you start the engine in in neutral the converter will be full before the oil pressure builds to peak in the engine.



.....x 100
Posted By: Chilort

Re: Solutions for "Morning Sickness" - 01/01/10 04:49 PM

Imagine how much fun it is to do this if you live on a hill.

Additionally, it reduces risk of damage from wearing out the pump bushing. It is tearing up the trans.
Posted By: MoparforLife

Re: Solutions for "Morning Sickness" - 01/01/10 07:44 PM

Quote:


Additionally, it reduces risk of damage from wearing out the pump bushing. It is tearing up the trans.


Not going to happen.

Quote:

Imagine how much fun it is to do this if you live on a hill.

If you are that worried about it and you live on a hill, have you ever heard of a parking brake or holding your foot on the brake for about 3 seconds.
Posted By: ledft79

Re: Solutions for "Morning Sickness" - 01/01/10 10:21 PM

Quote:

Quote:


Additionally, it reduces risk of damage from wearing out the pump bushing. It is tearing up the trans.


Not going to happen.

Quote:

Imagine how much fun it is to do this if you live on a hill.

If you are that worried about it and you live on a hill, have you ever heard of a parking brake or holding your foot on the brake for about 3 seconds.

why is every one ragging on this guy for wanting his car to act right? Mine does it too, and it kinda pss's me off too.
Posted By: John_Kunkel

Re: Solutions for "Morning Sickness" - 01/02/10 12:43 AM


Converter drainback is a perfectly normal occurance, there are service bulletins advising owners to start in Neutral instead of Park.
Posted By: MoparforLife

Re: Solutions for "Morning Sickness" - 01/02/10 01:15 AM

Quote:


Converter drainback is a perfectly normal occurance, there are service bulletins advising owners to start in Neutral instead of Park.

Thanks John.
Posted By: Chilort

Re: Solutions for "Morning Sickness" - 03/15/10 05:51 PM

Quote:

why is every one ragging on this guy for wanting his car to act right? Mine does it too, and it kinda pss's me off too.



Because Ford and Chevy figured this out and didn't have this problem. But Mopar is PERFECT in everything they do. So if Mopar is perfect then it really can't be a problem.....

My old truck takes quite a while to warm up, even though I live in Atlanta. I often go and do things while it warms up even if it is something as simple as taking out the trash or the recycling. And my driveway is slopped. So it is a PITA to sit there for a few minutes in neutral (and yes, depending on where I am in my driveway it is too steep for the parking brake to hold and is a grade beyond that specified by Mopar for the brake to hold). Maybe my life is just to hectic. Or I shouldn't drive my old truck unless I have time to handle its peccadilloes.
Posted By: Sixpak

Re: Solutions for "Morning Sickness" - 03/15/10 06:12 PM

Quote:

Quote:


Converter drainback is a perfectly normal occurance, there are service bulletins advising owners to start in Neutral instead of Park.

Thanks John.



So by extension, this has been a known problem for some 30+ years? Even new cars off the showroom floor may have had it? Or does some normal trans or converter wear eventually lead to this? I've got a stock 75 /6 with a 904, and a shift kitted 70 340 Swinger with the original 727 that do this...
Posted By: CR8CRSHR

Re: Solutions for "Morning Sickness" - 03/15/10 06:20 PM

Quote:

Quote:

why is every one ragging on this guy for wanting his car to act right? Mine does it too, and it kinda pss's me off too.



Because Ford and Chevy figured this out and didn't have this problem. But Mopar is PERFECT in everything they do. So if Mopar is perfect then it really can't be a problem.....

My old truck takes quite a while to warm up, even though I live in Atlanta. I often go and do things while it warms up even if it is something as simple as taking out the trash or the recycling. And my driveway is slopped. So it is a PITA to sit there for a few minutes in neutral (and yes, depending on where I am in my driveway it is too steep for the parking brake to hold and is a grade beyond that specified by Mopar for the brake to hold). Maybe my life is just to hectic. Or I shouldn't drive my old truck unless I have time to handle its peccadilloes.



My sentiments exactly. Quit ragging on the guy for wanting some help with the proverbial 727TF tranny drain back. Mine does it and after it warms up it is fine. He is right to be concerned about parking on what he has described as a steep grade in his drive way. And by the way...even the new 518 trans have the same issues as their older 727 cousins. It is what makes these old MOPARS unique beasts....
Posted By: Chilort

Re: Solutions for "Morning Sickness" - 03/15/10 06:22 PM

They eventually fixed it. And by eventually, I mean a '96 I had and then sold to my dad does this and there is a warning in the owner's manual about it. So it was after '96.

If yours goes into drive right away and doesn't act like there's anything wrong I think there is little to worry about. We've had an '83 pickup since '86 that we could always just drop in gear and take off without problem. It has at least 180,000 miles on the same transmission. ... the valves seals on the other hand....

And don't worry. I can take some ragging. Especially when I know I'm right!
Posted By: Lefty

Re: Solutions for "Morning Sickness" - 03/15/10 08:00 PM

Just start the car in neutral, problem solved...
Posted By: scratchnfotraction

Re: Solutions for "Morning Sickness" - 03/15/10 09:34 PM

CRT manual valve body in mine

I ask john about the pumping in park or N

said it pump in N not park but did have a new valve for converter drain back

but thats not a homebrew VB either

non of my 727 have ever done this that I can remeber...or any 904s I have run

maybe I got the good ones from the JY

but I do have a habit of starting them in N anyways for the warm up

I would not rag on you...as low level performance/knowlege as I am...I want it to work correctly also.

Posted By: John_Kunkel

Re: Solutions for "Morning Sickness" - 03/15/10 09:40 PM

Quote:

They eventually fixed it. And by eventually, I mean a '96



They never did "fix" it, the so-called converter drainback valve added to the cooler circuit was supposed to prevent converter drainback but it doesn't.
Posted By: scratchnfotraction

Re: Solutions for "Morning Sickness" - 03/15/10 09:47 PM

doent that valve in the cooler line plug up ez and burn the tranz up???
Posted By: John_Kunkel

Re: Solutions for "Morning Sickness" - 03/15/10 09:59 PM


Sometimes.
Posted By: Chilort

Re: Solutions for "Morning Sickness" - 03/15/10 10:20 PM

What's wrong with the valve that allows the converter to fill in park? ... like Ford and Chevy do.
Posted By: Jim_Lusk

Re: Solutions for "Morning Sickness" - 03/15/10 10:39 PM

Quote:

What's wrong with the valve that allows the converter to fill in park? ... like Ford and Chevy do.



I don't know what was done to the 727 in my GTS, but it was fixed by a tranny guy in the early 90s. The point is that it can be done. But, for what it's worth, I've never had a Mopar auto that took a long time. Start it in Park, put the shifter in gear (reverse or drive) with the foot on the brake. Any delay in engagement has been mostly negligible.
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