Power to Ignition dies when key is turned to start

Posted By: bigsbigelow

Power to Ignition dies when key is turned to start - 11/18/09 12:45 PM

Having a weird problem. Power to my Duster's ignition system dies when I turn the key to start. I can start the car by bumping the relay with key in the run position. Any one else had this problem and have a cure?

Posted By: buildanother

Re: Power to Ignition dies when key is turned to start - 11/18/09 01:12 PM

It's usually a wiring-connection issue(possibly at bulkhead harness) or ballast resistor problem. It's most likely not an ignition switch problem.

Posted By: MoparforLife

Re: Power to Ignition dies when key is turned to start - 11/18/09 01:56 PM

Usually the ballast resister.

Posted By: Dodge-N-Shelby

Re: Power to Ignition dies when key is turned to start - 11/18/09 02:09 PM

If its an automatic car I would check your neutral safty wiring. Ground the wire going to the neutral safty switch at the starter relay and see if it starts with the key. Careful because it will start in gear that way.

Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: Power to Ignition dies when key is turned to start - 11/18/09 02:18 PM

while a helper turns the key to "start" you check voltages at the "point" of the pentastar ECU connector and at the coil positive primary terminal with your VOM & if no fire work your way back to the bulkhead via the ballast & further upstream (under the dash) if need be & can take off the brown "sol" wire at the starter relay to keep the starter from running down the batt if needed.

Posted By: NachoRT74

Re: Power to Ignition dies when key is turned to start - 11/18/09 06:01 PM

if BRAKES light on cluster dims but doesn't turn off, then ballast and bulkhead are good, although is something to check.

Posted By: John_Kunkel

Re: Power to Ignition dies when key is turned to start - 11/18/09 08:15 PM

Quote:

Having a weird problem. Power to my Duster's ignition system dies when I turn the key to start.

Where are you measuring the power? The ignition switch has two circuits, IGN1 (RUN) and IGN2 (START); it is normal for IGN1 to shut off when the key is in the START position.

Posted By: 70AARcuda

Re: Power to Ignition dies when key is turned to start - 11/18/09 09:29 PM

my 73 duster would start and die...i thought it was the ballast resistor, i traced the problem to the bulkhead connector.

Posted By: 71383beep

Re: Power to Ignition dies when key is turned to start - 11/18/09 09:41 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Having a weird problem. Power to my Duster's ignition system dies when I turn the key to start.

Where are you measuring the power? The ignition switch has two circuits, IGN1 (RUN) and IGN2 (START); it is normal for IGN1 to shut off when the key is in the START position.

I thought IGN2 sends power directly to the coil therefore bypassing the Ballast resistor. I had a similar problem...the car would start as i let go of the key and it detented into the Run position. In start it would just turn and turn. Cleaning the bulkhead connectors did the trick.

Posted By: Dodgeballs

Re: Power to Ignition dies when key is turned to start - 11/18/09 11:31 PM

Yes. Same way on my Challenger. When you start turn the ignition key to start, the IGN1 "Run" wire that goes to the ballast resistor (the power for the coil while key is in "run" position) is not hot. Only the full voltage IGN2 "Start" wire that gives extra power to the coil while starting is hot. This is the wire that is connected to the same side of the ballast resistor as the wire that connects to the + terminal on the coil.

If you bypass the ballast resistor (say to connect the "run" wire to an MSD control) you will not get voltage while cranking. To fix this, splice the IGN2 wire to the IGN1 wire.

Quote:

Having a weird problem. Power to my Duster's ignition system dies when I turn the key to start. I can start the car by bumping the relay with key in the run position. Any one else had this problem and have a cure?

Posted By: NachoRT74

Re: Power to Ignition dies when key is turned to start - 11/19/09 12:16 AM

do you have the brakes light OFF at cluster while cranking ?

Posted By: bigsbigelow

Re: Power to Ignition dies when key is turned to start - 11/19/09 11:41 AM

None of the factory warning lights are hooked up. My under hood, dash, and column wiring harness are brand new. I took a break from working on the car yesterday (been thrashing on it since last Tuesday). I'll check and see if I have any loose connections tonight and I know I gotta make a couple more ground straps. One for the column for sure. Thanks for the tips fellas.

Posted By: MoparforLife

Re: Power to Ignition dies when key is turned to start - 11/19/09 05:23 PM

make sure that you have a good ground from the rear of the engine to the fire wall too. Very important.

Posted By: CrAzYMoPaRGuY

Re: Power to Ignition dies when key is turned to start - 11/20/09 03:24 AM

Try swapping out the ECU for one that you know works.

Posted By: 383man

Re: Power to Ignition dies when key is turned to start - 11/20/09 07:17 AM

Quote:

Yes. Same way on my Challenger. When you start turn the ignition key to start, the IGN1 "Run" wire that goes to the ballast resistor (the power for the coil while key is in "run" position) is not hot. Only the full voltage IGN2 "Start" wire that gives extra power to the coil while starting is hot. This is the wire that is connected to the same side of the ballast resistor as the wire that connects to the + terminal on the coil.

If you bypass the ballast resistor (say to connect the "run" wire to an MSD control) you will not get voltage while cranking. To fix this, splice the IGN2 wire to the IGN1 wire.

Quote:

Having a weird problem. Power to my Duster's ignition system dies when I turn the key to start. I can start the car by bumping the relay with key in the run position. Any one else had this problem and have a cure?

That is correct. You could unplug the ballast and the car should still start but of course it will die as soon as you let go of the key. The ing 2 is the bypass for the ballast in the crank position sending battery voltage to the coil while cranking.
Does the car crank over when in the start position ? Ron

Posted By: bigsbigelow

Re: Power to Ignition dies when key is turned to start - 11/20/09 11:52 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Yes. Same way on my Challenger. When you start turn the ignition key to start, the IGN1 "Run" wire that goes to the ballast resistor (the power for the coil while key is in "run" position) is not hot. Only the full voltage IGN2 "Start" wire that gives extra power to the coil while starting is hot. This is the wire that is connected to the same side of the ballast resistor as the wire that connects to the + terminal on the coil.

If you bypass the ballast resistor (say to connect the "run" wire to an MSD control) you will not get voltage while cranking. To fix this, splice the IGN2 wire to the IGN1 wire.

Quote:

Having a weird problem. Power to my Duster's ignition system dies when I turn the key to start. I can start the car by bumping the relay with key in the run position. Any one else had this problem and have a cure?

That is correct. You could unplug the ballast and the car should still start but of course it will die as soon as you let go of the key. The ing 2 is the bypass for the ballast in the crank position sending battery voltage to the coil while cranking.
Does the car crank over when in the start position ? Ron

Yes, the car will crank over just won't run. I can set the key to run and fire the car from the relay and it runs fine. I do have a dual ballast wiring harness but just have it hooked up to a single MSD ballast resistor to match my Blaster Coil. Could that be a problem?

Posted By: CokeBottleKid

Re: Power to Ignition dies when key is turned to start - 11/20/09 12:21 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Yes. Same way on my Challenger. When you start turn the ignition key to start, the IGN1 "Run" wire that goes to the ballast resistor (the power for the coil while key is in "run" position) is not hot. Only the full voltage IGN2 "Start" wire that gives extra power to the coil while starting is hot. This is the wire that is connected to the same side of the ballast resistor as the wire that connects to the + terminal on the coil.

If you bypass the ballast resistor (say to connect the "run" wire to an MSD control) you will not get voltage while cranking. To fix this, splice the IGN2 wire to the IGN1 wire.

Quote:

Having a weird problem. Power to my Duster's ignition system dies when I turn the key to start. I can start the car by bumping the relay with key in the run position. Any one else had this problem and have a cure?

That is correct. You could unplug the ballast and the car should still start but of course it will die as soon as you let go of the key. The ing 2 is the bypass for the ballast in the crank position sending battery voltage to the coil while cranking.
Does the car crank over when in the start position ? Ron

Yes, the car will crank over just won't run. I can set the key to run and fire the car from the relay and it runs fine. I do have a dual ballast wiring harness but just have it hooked up to a single MSD ballast resistor to match my Blaster Coil. Could that be a problem?

Duh

Posted By: bigsbigelow

Re: Power to Ignition dies when key is turned to start - 11/20/09 01:20 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Yes. Same way on my Challenger. When you start turn the ignition key to start, the IGN1 "Run" wire that goes to the ballast resistor (the power for the coil while key is in "run" position) is not hot. Only the full voltage IGN2 "Start" wire that gives extra power to the coil while starting is hot. This is the wire that is connected to the same side of the ballast resistor as the wire that connects to the + terminal on the coil.

If you bypass the ballast resistor (say to connect the "run" wire to an MSD control) you will not get voltage while cranking. To fix this, splice the IGN2 wire to the IGN1 wire.

Quote:

Having a weird problem. Power to my Duster's ignition system dies when I turn the key to start. I can start the car by bumping the relay with key in the run position. Any one else had this problem and have a cure?

That is correct. You could unplug the ballast and the car should still start but of course it will die as soon as you let go of the key. The ing 2 is the bypass for the ballast in the crank position sending battery voltage to the coil while cranking.
Does the car crank over when in the start position ? Ron

Yes, the car will crank over just won't run. I can set the key to run and fire the car from the relay and it runs fine. I do have a dual ballast wiring harness but just have it hooked up to a single MSD ballast resistor to match my Blaster Coil. Could that be a problem?

Duh

haha Figures. Could I splice the wires and fix them together with a single end and fix the problem or would that just mess things up more?

Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: Power to Ignition dies when key is turned to start - 11/20/09 02:47 PM

Quote:

Could I splice the wires and fix them together with a single end and fix the problem or would that just mess things up more?

connect the blue and the brown wires together on the one connector & you're set. (4 pin ECU I'm assuming) EDIT you have the OE double connectors/wiring harness that were on each end of the 4 terminal ballast and you plugged your new 2 terminal ballast into one half of each of these plastic connectors? If this is correct jump the blue to the brown.

Posted By: 71383beep

Re: Power to Ignition dies when key is turned to start - 11/20/09 03:01 PM

Quote:

Try swapping out the ECU for one that you know works.

The ECU does not get power when on IGN1 or start. Power is sent directly to the coil (brown wire from post 22 on FSM). When you let go of the key after the motor catches the key detents to IGN2 or Run which then sends power to the ballast resistor and in turn ECU (Blue wire from Post 23 on FSM). During start the ECU is not needed.

A classic ballast resitor or ECU problem is the car will START but not RUN. This problem is opposite to that which means something is wrong between the switch and the wiring directly to the coil or the switch itself.

Posted By: CrAzYMoPaRGuY

Re: Power to Ignition dies when key is turned to start - 11/20/09 05:23 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Try swapping out the ECU for one that you know works.

The ECU does not get power when on IGN1 or start. Power is sent directly to the coil (brown wire from post 22 on FSM). When you let go of the key after the motor catches the key detents to IGN2 or Run which then sends power to the ballast resistor and in turn ECU (Blue wire from Post 23 on FSM). During start the ECU is not needed.

A classic ballast resitor or ECU problem is the car will START but not RUN. This problem is opposite to that which means something is wrong between the switch and the wiring directly to the coil or the switch itself.

I have an orange box that TRIES to start on run, but nothing on start.
My truck had a factory ECU that TRIED to start on run but not on start.
My buddy told me to swap out the ECUs, and I told him 100 times it couldn't be it.
I swapped out the ECU on my truck, it started right up.

I checked grounds, ballast resistors, wiring, voltage, coils, ignition switch, EVERYTHING.
It was the ECU swap that made my problems go away..

Posted By: NachoRT74

Re: Power to Ignition dies when key is turned to start - 11/20/09 05:28 PM

Guys!!! he is talking about MSD BALLAST not MSD IGNITION!!!

brown and blue on diff sides of ballast doesn't have to be spliced together I REPEAT, DOESN'TY HAVE TO BE SPLICED TOGETHER... thats is just for MSD IGN MODULES, but not for the ballast with stock ECU modules

I state brown and blue wires on diff side ob ballast because on earliers, the wire going to coil is blue but with a brown splice on ballast coming from ign switch ( that changed since 70 with electronic regulator, getting brown to coil ). These also gets another blue on the other side of ballast.

All you have to check is if you have power on blue wire of ballast in RUN. and if you get power on brown wire of ballast in START.

BTW, ECU GETS POWER IN START, is not true doesn't get power in Start. What is true is ECU doesn't get power in Start directly coming from ign switch. It gets power in Start THROUIGHT teh ballast, what woks like a splice. Of course, reduced power, due the ballast effect, but enough to work.

The ballast making the splice function is what help you on check the correctnes wiring and ballast function if you get the brake light at cluster dimmed but still working when cranking

Posted By: CokeBottleKid

Re: Power to Ignition dies when key is turned to start - 11/20/09 10:15 PM

Well looking over the diagram technically it shouldn't run in either case.... So obviously his wirings a bit different (aftermarket it sounds like).

http://www.hemmings.com/images/mopar-5-wire-diagram.gif

In any case there's no reason to try to run the stupid MSD balast there's nothing wrong with the factory 4 prong ballast. Go get one, plug it in and tell us if there's any difference...

Edit: wait that's a 5 wire ECU...well in any case ditch the stupid MSD ballast and run the 4 prong... then go check your ignition switch wiring.

Posted By: bigsbigelow

Re: Power to Ignition dies when key is turned to start - 11/21/09 01:51 PM

Here is a pic of what I am working with. I am going to pick up a factory ballast resistor but thought I would post this any way. Maybe it will set some one's light bulb off.

Posted By: buildanother

Re: Power to Ignition dies when key is turned to start - 11/21/09 02:15 PM

Four wires on a two prong resistor?

That can't be right.

Posted By: NachoRT74

Re: Power to Ignition dies when key is turned to start - 11/21/09 02:20 PM

Quote:

Four wires on a two prong resistor? That can't be right.

yes can it be right as far you plug the right side of the dual plugs... the brown spliced side ( coil ) and the blue one from key, what really this one doesn't really matter wich one since both terminals are jumped from same source... AND running 4 pins ECU...

Coil one plugged at single ballast is what really matters on the pictured set up. The green traced red one can it be unplugged with 4 pins module

why would you make that ? if you don't want to get rid off the stock plugs and wires setup and INSTALL A HIGH PERFORMANCE 1/4 OHM BALLAST, since they are not available on dual resistor setup ( 1 ohms is the smaller resistor available on dual that I'm aware of )

and in case of emergency on the road you still can get a 5 pins ECU and dual ballast available around and still wire it back like it was from factory to save the problem.

Posted By: NachoRT74

Re: Power to Ignition dies when key is turned to start - 11/21/09 02:40 PM

BTW, just posting somwthing more...

I'm having quite often a similar problem when engtine is warm. Engine doesn't fire up while cranking but when release the key to RUN. I'm sure I have my wiring all good and ballast. Thinking on some internal piece on ECU is damaged when hot, making hard to fire when cranking.

When cranking, the ECU is feeded through ballast, so maybe some condenser, resistor, transistor or Diode inside ECU is out of range and makes it hard to fire up when power is not high as posible from source. Being ECU is feeded from ballast when cranking and when warn resistance is higher, I have reasons to think on that

What I have discovered is that clicking the key back and forth couple of times, like getting on and off any device, makes maybe some excitation on the damaged device, and then makes fire up the engine normally.

will proove that soon, when I get my replacement of the Chromed Box in next days. Used but claimed never failed ( preffer that than a new without guarantee is perfect )

Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: Power to Ignition dies when key is turned to start - 11/21/09 03:33 PM

jump the brown and blue like this & see if you're good.

Attached picture 5618315-dualballast.jpg

Posted By: MY340

Re: Power to Ignition dies when key is turned to start - 11/21/09 09:26 PM

I had some weird starting & dieing problem right after I bought my Duster. Problem seemed to be intermittent so that wasn't fun either.

Finally last thing I did was swap wires from top to bottom & vice versa on my 4 prong ballast resistor and viola' easy starts and no more hard starts and runs great.

I'm glad I had a wiring diagram to verify someone had it backwards.

Posted By: CrAzYMoPaRGuY

Re: Power to Ignition dies when key is turned to start - 11/21/09 09:44 PM

Quote:

BTW, just posting somwthing more...

I'm having quite often a similar problem when engtine is warm. Engine doesn't fire up while cranking but when release the key to RUN. I'm sure I have my wiring all good and ballast. Thinking on some internal piece on ECU is damaged when hot, making hard to fire when cranking.

When cranking, the ECU is feeded through ballast, so maybe some condenser, resistor, transistor or Diode inside ECU is out of range and makes it hard to fire up when power is not high as posible from source. Being ECU is feeded from ballast when cranking and when warn resistance is higher, I have reasons to think on that

What I have discovered is that clicking the key back and forth couple of times, like getting on and off any device, makes maybe some excitation on the damaged device, and then makes fire up the engine normally.

will proove that soon, when I get my replacement of the Chromed Box in next days. Used but claimed never failed ( preffer that than a new without guarantee is perfect )

EXACTLY what my orange box failures have been.
I had a brand new orange box, used it for maybe a week sparingly and it wouldn't restart hot.
It now sits under my seat, waiting for me to toss it out, cause it's basically useless.