Posted By: WannaRunner
Quench - 10/31/09 12:33 PM
How much is quench an issue when running dished pistons??
~thanks
~thanks
Quench
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: Quench - 10/31/09 12:35 PM
full dish or D dish ? open or closed chamber head ?
It's an issue if you have hi compression and don't want to run race gas ...
It's an issue if you have hi compression and don't want to run race gas ...
Posted By: WannaRunner
Re: Quench - 10/31/09 02:08 PM
Thanks John, this would be 86cc closed chamber. is full dish better for flame propagation and negate the need for quench??
Posted By: RapidRobert
Re: Quench - 10/31/09 02:37 PM
You'd want the D dish that double R spoke of. A full dish (which has a thin perimeter of slightly raised material) would not be wide enough to give you enough AREA (not enough mixture would be squished out
Posted By: 360view
Re: Quench - 10/31/09 02:38 PM
Quench is still important with dished piston design, and the area outside of the dish needs to be as large as 50% of the total crown area for optimum quench.
1994 Magnum 5.9V8 factory pistons are over 40% quench area.
The small details in the design of the edge of the dish are important too.
If the edge is designed right,
the straight line inward moving fan jets of "squished out" air and fuel
then 'tumbles' as it goes over the edge of the dish and downward.
Diesel pistons in particular make use of this tumbling turbulence in addition to the squish turbulence.
1994 Magnum 5.9V8 factory pistons are over 40% quench area.
The small details in the design of the edge of the dish are important too.
If the edge is designed right,
the straight line inward moving fan jets of "squished out" air and fuel
then 'tumbles' as it goes over the edge of the dish and downward.
Diesel pistons in particular make use of this tumbling turbulence in addition to the squish turbulence.
Posted By: WannaRunner
Re: Quench - 10/31/09 03:26 PM
Thanks Guys! 
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: Quench - 10/31/09 03:30 PM
The performance pistons I have seen are D shaped dish and that's what you need unless you need a HUGE dish ...
I'm having Diamond make me a piston with a pop up quench dome AND a D shaped dish
I'm having Diamond make me a piston with a pop up quench dome AND a D shaped dish
Posted By: WannaRunner
Re: Quench - 11/01/09 06:36 AM
Quote:
Quench is still important with dished piston design, and the area outside of the dish needs to be as large as 50% of the total crown area for optimum quench.
1994 Magnum 5.9V8 factory pistons are over 40% quench area.
The small details in the design of the edge of the dish are important too.
If the edge is designed right,
the straight line inward moving fan jets of "squished out" air and fuel
then 'tumbles' as it goes over the edge of the dish and downward.
Diesel pistons in particular make use of this tumbling turbulence in addition to the squish turbulence.
Ok, I jacked this pic from source, it was easy to find. Is this a good ballpark of the shape I should be looking for? are flat top slugs better overall? would I have hotspots with this piston? looking for 10.5-11.0 compression.
The red lines show how I believe the mixture would "tumble" off the dome and into the lands on the opposite side of the piston when squeezed from the quench area, is this ballpark/kinda along the lines??
Bare with me on this learning curve guys, Thanks.
Posted By: WannaRunner
Re: Quench - 11/01/09 06:38 AM
Quote:
The performance pistons I have seen are D shaped dish and that's what you need unless you need a HUGE dish ...
I'm having Diamond make me a piston with a pop up quench dome AND a D shaped dish
John, is the pic. above considered a pop up quench dome and a D shaped dish??
Thanks.
Posted By: 360view
Re: Quench - 11/01/09 11:40 AM
It would be helpful if you would tell us what cylinder head you are planning to use with that piston, or post a picture.
Posted By: RapidRobert
Re: Quench - 11/01/09 11:50 AM
Quote:It is a D shaped dish and a quench pad (since it is a flat plateau). pad/dome is splitting hairs a bit but to help you a dome refers more to the sort of pyramid shape that the old pop up racing pistons had to get compression.
is the pic above considered a pop up quench dome and a D shaped dish??
Posted By: WannaRunner
Re: Quench - 11/01/09 12:12 PM
Quote:
It would be helpful if you would tell us what cylinder head you are planning to use with that piston, or post a picture.
CNC'd Stealths
Posted By: WannaRunner
Re: Quench - 11/01/09 01:57 PM
Quote:Quote:It is a D shaped dish and a quench pad (since it is a flat plateau). pad/dome is splitting hairs a bit but to help you a dome refers more to the sort of pyramid shape that the old pop up racing pistons had to get compression.
is the pic above considered a pop up quench dome and a D shaped dish??
Is it best to run flattop pistons??
Thanks.
Posted By: RapidRobert
Re: Quench - 11/01/09 03:09 PM
Quote:To ans your orig Q, quench will let you run a much higher CR without pinging on your choice of fuel which is important with todays poor pump gas and CR is one of the main parameters that determines an engines power output (squeeze is power). I'm assuming that your(& all) stealths are closed chambers and a zero deck (flattop) piston & a .039" gasket would give you perfect quench but the CR would be too high and you do need valve reliefs so a quench pad gives you the quench distance and the dish takes care of the valve reliefs and in addition the dish lowers the CR to a manageable level and also makes a much more ideal shape for flame propagation as you have the domed combustion chamber and the (somewhat similar) dish which doesn't constrict the flame travel like a flattop piston top does.
Is it best to run flattop pistons?
Posted By: WannaRunner
Re: Quench - 11/01/09 03:41 PM
Yes, all things being equal, would it be better running a flatop verses the piston pictured above??
~thanks
~thanks
Posted By: RapidRobert
Re: Quench - 11/01/09 03:50 PM
Quote:The dish is and back to my prior post which my wording is a little misleading as it's not so much that the flat top is more restrictive it's that the dish is much better but the CRITICAL issues are CR/quench/VP clearance and if you have all those where they should be either one (dish or flattop) will work great for you.
Yes, all things being equal, would it be better running a flatop verses the piston pictured above?
Posted By: WannaRunner
Re: Quench - 11/01/09 04:42 PM
Source heads, with slight variations, give or take, are 84-86cc. The piston above is a -17cc dish, at .015 in the hole and a .039 gasket I'll get around 10.0cr. with the same chamber, .010 in the hole, .039 gasket, running a flattop I'll get around 11.2cr. a couple years ago, even with alum. heads 11.2cr was to much compression on pump gas, even with a good tune/setup. within the last 1.5 years or so every gas station around here is pretty much E85, where 10.5cr was the high end then, my machinest says now that 11.0cr is becoming the norm due to this gas. I can up the gasket thickness if needed to drop the CR. where I was getting lost, and you answered, was what piston top design would be the best? a full dish has no quench and a pop up would interfere with flame propagation. the piston above has a quench pad, valve reliefs, a reasonable CR and would aid in flame propagation.
Thanks by the way for taking the time to answer my questions!
Thanks by the way for taking the time to answer my questions!
Posted By: RapidRobert
Re: Quench *DELETED* *DELETED* - 11/01/09 05:31 PM
Post deleted by RapidRobert
Posted By: RapidRobert
Re: Quench - 11/01/09 05:46 PM
Hey your welcome and here is a very simple & user friendly CR calculator. http://kb-silvolite.com/calc.php? EDIT I reread your specs and more than .045" quench is going to require you to run a significantly lower CR with any given pump gas. With your choice of cam decide on a static CR to get the right cranking CR for your intending octane pump gas. this leaves nothing on the table with your short block then consult with your machinist & get each cyl's CR and quench exactly where you want it.
Posted By: BELVEDERE67
Re: Quench - 11/01/09 05:53 PM
I don't know much about flame propogation. I believe that the flat piston delays the propogation thus reducing detonation. Is that right? I do know that it is imperative that quench be around .040 to work effectively. Your 2 senario's do not give that dimention. I've read other posts that anyting over .050 is a waste of time as it will detonate. Detonation reduction with high CR is the main goal of quench. Iv'e run higher compression with .040 quench and seen no detonation. I'd stay with this number a all costs. Not sure about dished pistons, but with flat tops it does work.
Posted By: WannaRunner
Re: Quench - 11/01/09 07:12 PM
Thanks for the calculator! If I remember correctly my machinist said he is shooting for .039/.040 quench, I had a concern that the design of the piston top would hinder flame travel and I would not get an efficent burn and negate the effort he is putting towards proper quench, don't get me wrong, he deffinitly knows what he's doing, I don't, lol. its the weekend though and he is closed. so I figured I'd to some research here on Moparts to learn.
~Thanks
~Thanks
Posted By: 360view
Re: Quench - 11/01/09 07:20 PM
I am interested in the question of whether
flat top pistons are superior ... either for
most effective quench,
or faster flame speed,
or fewest hot spots,
or conducting the least heat toward the ring lands,
etc
This article about the GM LS7 engine
http://www.popularhotrodding.com/tech/0504phr_chevy_ls7_engine_review/index.html
has the quote
Special cast pistons were developed for the LS7, which feature an anti-friction skirt coating, anodized ring lands, improving hardness and wear resistance. Larger-bore pistons are by nature heavier than their smaller-bore counterparts, and here the LS7 design team countered this tendency by moving the pin bosses inward and employing a shorter high-strength full-floating piston pin. This approach yields a piston assembly that is lighter, while the shorter pin represents a mechanically stiffer arrangement. With a flat-top design, the pistons deliver a compression ratio of 11:1.
the picture has the caption:
Topping the rod is a flat-top piston helping the LS7 achieve a compression ratio of 11:1. The piston features a skirt coating to reduce bore friction, and hard-anodized ring lands, which enhance durability and temperature resistance. Note the short compression height and the lightweight reactive ring pack; pins are full-floating.
flat top pistons are superior ... either for
most effective quench,
or faster flame speed,
or fewest hot spots,
or conducting the least heat toward the ring lands,
etc
This article about the GM LS7 engine
http://www.popularhotrodding.com/tech/0504phr_chevy_ls7_engine_review/index.html
has the quote
Special cast pistons were developed for the LS7, which feature an anti-friction skirt coating, anodized ring lands, improving hardness and wear resistance. Larger-bore pistons are by nature heavier than their smaller-bore counterparts, and here the LS7 design team countered this tendency by moving the pin bosses inward and employing a shorter high-strength full-floating piston pin. This approach yields a piston assembly that is lighter, while the shorter pin represents a mechanically stiffer arrangement. With a flat-top design, the pistons deliver a compression ratio of 11:1.
the picture has the caption:
Topping the rod is a flat-top piston helping the LS7 achieve a compression ratio of 11:1. The piston features a skirt coating to reduce bore friction, and hard-anodized ring lands, which enhance durability and temperature resistance. Note the short compression height and the lightweight reactive ring pack; pins are full-floating.
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: Quench - 11/02/09 03:45 PM
Quote:Quote:
The performance pistons I have seen are D shaped dish and that's what you need unless you need a HUGE dish ...
I'm having Diamond make me a piston with a pop up quench dome AND a D shaped dish
John, is the pic. above considered a pop up quench dome and a D shaped dish??
Thanks.
it could be used as one but a step dome usually would not go to the edge of the piston like that , if it were used in an open chamber head you would to have to be absolutely postive the chamber did not overhang the bore , most will ... unless you are building something around a 4.280 or under bore size.
to me that looks like a piston designed to the zero decked .
Posted By: moper
Re: Quench - 11/02/09 05:03 PM
I run those pictured dishes at .010 above deck unless the bore is larger than 4.355. I also tend to have the chamber sizes reduced by milling. You want the distance tight as you can. Closer to .030 the better. You will also want to choose the cam carefully as too small will give you more grief than too large will when building for quench.
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: Quench - 11/02/09 09:01 PM
Quote:
Yes, all things being equal, would it be better running a flatop verses the piston pictured above??
~thanks
That all depends on what compression ratio you need to be able to run the octane fuel you want.
If you choose a flat top and end up with 12.5 compression but want to run 89 octane fuel then yes you would need a piston that looks like the one above to get an octane friendly compression ratio and still have quench.
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: Quench - 11/02/09 09:05 PM
Quote:
I run those pictured dishes at .010 above deck unless the bore is larger than 4.355. I also tend to have the chamber sizes reduced by milling. You want the distance tight as you can. Closer to .030 the better. You will also want to choose the cam carefully as too small will give you more grief than too large will when building for quench.
why unless the bore is larger than 4.355 , and what would you do then ?
The only thing I have to go by for a quench pad is the KB piston and they don't run it out to the edge of the piston , at least the pictures I have seen of them they do not ?? but this of course is ASSuMEing that the KB pad is correct ... but now that I think of it their piston specs for big block mopar engine is less than optimum
Posted By: RapidRobert
Re: Quench - 11/02/09 09:17 PM
Quote:(1) correct, not out to the edge (2) I think KB expects (rightly so) a person to measure their (quench) clearance & mill the quench pad down to where it's right for each eng. that's what I'm doing on my 451.
The only thing I have to go by for a quench pad is the KB piston and they don't run it out to the edge of the piston , at least the pictures I have seen of them they do not ?? but this of course is ASSuMEing that the KB pad is correct
Posted By: CYACOP
Re: Quench - 11/02/09 09:44 PM
Quote:Quote:(1) correct, not out to the edge (2) I think KB expects (rightly so) a person to measure their (quench) clearance & mill the quench pad down to where it's right for each eng. that's what I'm doing on my 451.
The only thing I have to go by for a quench pad is the KB piston and they don't run it out to the edge of the piston , at least the pictures I have seen of them they do not ?? but this of course is ASSuMEing that the KB pad is correct
And what happens if you dont?
Posted By: Robbins
Re: Quench - 11/02/09 09:53 PM
Quote:
(1) correct, not out to the edge (2) I think KB expects (rightly so) a person to measure their (quench) clearance & mill the quench pad down to where it's right for each eng. that's what I'm doing on my 451.
This is what I did on my 446 motor for my RC. I ran the 184's with 915 heads with the pad cut to where they were .004 above deck and used a .044 gasket.
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: Quench - 11/02/09 10:03 PM
Quote:Quote:Quote:(1) correct, not out to the edge (2) I think KB expects (rightly so) a person to measure their (quench) clearance & mill the quench pad down to where it's right for each eng. that's what I'm doing on my 451.
The only thing I have to go by for a quench pad is the KB piston and they don't run it out to the edge of the piston , at least the pictures I have seen of them they do not ?? but this of course is ASSuMEing that the KB pad is correct
And what happens if you dont?
Depends , if they are too tall they hit the head, if you have too much distance between the head and the piston you negate the quench effect and get no benefit from it .
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: Quench - 11/02/09 10:05 PM
Quote:Quote:(1) correct, not out to the edge (2) I think KB expects (rightly so) a person to measure their (quench) clearance & mill the quench pad down to where it's right for each eng. that's what I'm doing on my 451.
The only thing I have to go by for a quench pad is the KB piston and they don't run it out to the edge of the piston , at least the pictures I have seen of them they do not ?? but this of course is ASSuMEing that the KB pad is correct
I did the opposite , machined the chambers so they were all the same depth considering the last set of heads I did the middle of the head was about .020 DEEPER than the ends of the head .
Posted By: RapidRobert
Re: Quench - 11/02/09 10:32 PM
Quote:open chambers?. that's what I was going to have to do to a set of 906's if I hadn't found some 915's for a decent price.
I did the opposite , machined the chambers so they were all the same depth considering the last set of heads I did the middle of the head was about .020 DEEPER than the ends of the head .
Posted By: BSB67
Re: Quench - 11/02/09 11:33 PM
Quote:Quote:
It would be helpful if you would tell us what cylinder head you are planning to use with that piston, or post a picture.
CNC'd Stealths
Maybe it is in the post somewhere and I missed it, is this a 500" motor?
If it is, an option is to have the combustion chamber opened to what you need and run a flat top.
When Jeff is done with the CNC work, presuming he still cleans up the combustion chambers/unshroud the valves, they will be at about 88cc. The valve reliefs on most flat top pistons are 4 to 6 depending on the piston. Depending on your cam, you are already pretty close to pump friendly combo with 0.040 quench. Just an option.
Get the CR you want and good quench, that is what is most important. After that, piston shape is splitting hairs.
Posted By: WannaRunner
Re: Quench - 11/03/09 12:37 AM
Quote:Quote:Quote:
The performance pistons I have seen are D shaped dish and that's what you need unless you need a HUGE dish ...
I'm having Diamond make me a piston with a pop up quench dome AND a D shaped dish
John, is the pic. above considered a pop up quench dome and a D shaped dish??
Thanks.
it could be used as one but a step dome usually would not go to the edge of the piston like that , if it were used in an open chamber head you would to have to be absolutely postive the chamber did not overhang the bore , most will ... unless you are building something around a 4.280 or under bore size.
to me that looks like a piston designed to the zero decked .
This one I believe is to be used .015 in the hole....
Posted By: WannaRunner
Re: Quench - 11/03/09 12:40 AM
Quote:Quote:
Yes, all things being equal, would it be better running a flatop verses the piston pictured above??
~thanks
That all depends on what compression ratio you need to be able to run the octane fuel you want.
If you choose a flat top and end up with 12.5 compression but want to run 89 octane fuel then yes you would need a piston that looks like the one above to get an octane friendly compression ratio and still have quench.
I'm running 91-93 octane E85 in my runner now. (jetted up my carb) I would like to run around 11.0cr in the new motor.
Posted By: WannaRunner
Re: Quench - 11/03/09 12:51 AM
Quote:Quote:Quote:
It would be helpful if you would tell us what cylinder head you are planning to use with that piston, or post a picture.
CNC'd Stealths
Maybe it is in the post somewhere and I missed it, is this a 500" motor?
If it is, an option is to have the combustion chamber opened to what you need and run a flat top.
When Jeff is done with the CNC work, presuming he still cleans up the combustion chambers/unshroud the valves, they will be at about 88cc. The valve reliefs on most flat top pistons are 4 to 6 depending on the piston. Depending on your cam, you are already pretty close to pump friendly combo with 0.040 quench. Just an option.
Get the CR you want and good quench, that is what is most important. After that, piston shape is splitting hairs.
512 stroker, around 11.0cr
Posted By: BSB67
Re: Quench - 11/03/09 03:22 AM
Quote:Quote:Quote:Quote:
It would be helpful if you would tell us what cylinder head you are planning to use with that piston, or post a picture.
CNC'd Stealths
Maybe it is in the post somewhere and I missed it, is this a 500" motor?
If it is, an option is to have the combustion chamber opened to what you need and run a flat top.
When Jeff is done with the CNC work, presuming he still cleans up the combustion chambers/unshroud the valves, they will be at about 88cc. The valve reliefs on most flat top pistons are 4 to 6 depending on the piston. Depending on your cam, you are already pretty close to pump friendly combo with 0.040 quench. Just an option.
Get the CR you want and good quench, that is what is most important. After that, piston shape is splitting hairs.
512 stroker, around 11.0cr
Then the flat top will get you very close to this.
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: Quench - 11/03/09 02:32 PM
Quote:Quote:open chambers?. that's what I was going to have to do to a set of 906's if I hadn't found some 915's for a decent price.
I did the opposite , machined the chambers so they were all the same depth considering the last set of heads I did the middle of the head was about .020 DEEPER than the ends of the head .
Yes , 452's , they are a pair of Paul Rossi street fighter heads I bought in 1989, the worst of the 2 heads was an NOS casting.
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: Quench - 11/03/09 02:34 PM
Quote:Quote:Quote:
Yes, all things being equal, would it be better running a flatop verses the piston pictured above??
~thanks
That all depends on what compression ratio you need to be able to run the octane fuel you want.
If you choose a flat top and end up with 12.5 compression but want to run 89 octane fuel then yes you would need a piston that looks like the one above to get an octane friendly compression ratio and still have quench.
I'm running 91-93 octane E85 in my runner now. (jetted up my carb) I would like to run around 11.0cr in the new motor.
91-93 octane E85 ??? are you mixing it ??? I thought E85 was 105 octane ??
12.5 would be fine with E85 , where are you getting it near Fitchburg ? I want to run it in the engine I'm building but it looks like I'll have to run into Chelsea from Southern NH to get it .
Posted By: moper
Re: Quench - 11/03/09 04:58 PM
John, I run them tighter until the bore gets large enough and the piston short enough that after a few thousand miles of use the piston rock takes up a bit of the quench. From what I've seen, which is limited I admit... Once you're past the 440 +.030 bore the pistons can rock a bit. Add to that the loss in skirt and stability from the stroked crank and the extra sideways pushing.... I want to make sure nothing hits after a bunch of miles. No other reason than that. But remember I'm starting at .030. Guys starting at .040 dont have to worry. As things wear, that distance gets tighter as the piston changes direction.
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: Quench - 11/03/09 05:06 PM
Quote:
John, I run them tighter until the bore gets large enough and the piston short enough that after a few thousand miles of use the piston rock takes up a bit of the quench. From what I've seen, which is limited I admit... Once you're past the 440 +.030 bore the pistons can rock a bit. Add to that the loss in skirt and stability from the stroked crank and the extra sideways pushing.... I want to make sure nothing hits after a bunch of miles. No other reason than that. But remember I'm starting at .030. Guys starting at .040 dont have to worry. As things wear, that distance gets tighter as the piston changes direction.
Thanks Dave , the engines I'm working on are stock stroke /stock rod so I don't need to be concerned. Any strokers I am building are open chamber but Hi compression and the quench distance isn't close enough to be a concern with piston rock
high compression and
Posted By: 360view
Re: Quench - 11/08/09 03:59 PM
Famous retired Chrysler engineer
Pete Hagenbuch
on Squish and Quench:
quote
What was involved in going from the A engines to the LA engines?
You know I don’t really remember any problems, there had to be some but I can’t remember anything serious enough to be worth talking about; even the performance improved by getting rid of the silly polysphere. A wedged chamber does have some advantages. One of the advantages is that you can build in a lot of what we call squish, where the chamber is just part of the cylinder head surface and the piston have a flat area that matches up with it, because squish is why you can run 12 to 1 on a wedge head because without squish you would have to run 9 to 1. It gets the charge moving and mixed, you know moving through the chamber at high velocity which means the flame travel is fast and there isn’t anything left to burn by the time it gets to top dead center where you expect the detonation. Anything that reduces detonation also helps reduce pre-ignition which is catastrophic.
Detonation can lead to pre-ignition because of the rise in temperature. If you are in more or less constant detonation then sooner or later you going to hole a piston, its going to become pre-ignition which means it starts burning the minute the intake valve opens which means that the full force of the combustion is working against the piston going up and things get really hot in there, and aluminum melts at around 1200°.
So the wedge would also be good for emissions then if everything burns cleanly?
Yes it is, and the hemi is not. If you look at our hemi it has squish, a full 360°. That is the feature that a lot of fluff book writers use to jokingly call a semi-hemi. But I think once they have driven one they don’t call it a semi-hemi anymore.
Do you mean the current one?
The current one. (5.7)
The most outstanding thing about the current hemi is we make money on it. We didn’t make money on the others, they were too expensive.
end quote
from
http://www.allpar.com/corporate/bios/hagenbuch-interview2.html
Pete Hagenbuch
on Squish and Quench:
quote
What was involved in going from the A engines to the LA engines?
You know I don’t really remember any problems, there had to be some but I can’t remember anything serious enough to be worth talking about; even the performance improved by getting rid of the silly polysphere. A wedged chamber does have some advantages. One of the advantages is that you can build in a lot of what we call squish, where the chamber is just part of the cylinder head surface and the piston have a flat area that matches up with it, because squish is why you can run 12 to 1 on a wedge head because without squish you would have to run 9 to 1. It gets the charge moving and mixed, you know moving through the chamber at high velocity which means the flame travel is fast and there isn’t anything left to burn by the time it gets to top dead center where you expect the detonation. Anything that reduces detonation also helps reduce pre-ignition which is catastrophic.
Detonation can lead to pre-ignition because of the rise in temperature. If you are in more or less constant detonation then sooner or later you going to hole a piston, its going to become pre-ignition which means it starts burning the minute the intake valve opens which means that the full force of the combustion is working against the piston going up and things get really hot in there, and aluminum melts at around 1200°.
So the wedge would also be good for emissions then if everything burns cleanly?
Yes it is, and the hemi is not. If you look at our hemi it has squish, a full 360°. That is the feature that a lot of fluff book writers use to jokingly call a semi-hemi. But I think once they have driven one they don’t call it a semi-hemi anymore.
Do you mean the current one?
The current one. (5.7)
The most outstanding thing about the current hemi is we make money on it. We didn’t make money on the others, they were too expensive.
end quote
from
http://www.allpar.com/corporate/bios/hagenbuch-interview2.html