Truck 440 cam selection help...

Posted By: Pat_Whalen

Truck 440 cam selection help... - 10/27/09 05:40 PM

Looking into the summit cam/lifters kit.

The engine in question is a 1978 440, standard bore, stock pistons, untouched 452 heads, cast iron manifolds. Engine is going in an 80 ramcharger, 35" tires, unsure of axle ratios at this point, 727/205 combination.

I would like a fairly low power band to get this beast moving, I'd like it to "sound" like it's got a hotter cam in it, and I'd like to not sacrifice drivability or vacuum.

I saw summit lists two camshaft kits:

The SUM-K6401 which is 282/292, .465"/.468"

The SUM-K6400 which is 272/282, .442"/.465"

As I understand it, the lower duration brings the power curve down a bit in the RPM range, but obviously at the sacrifice of lift. I would also prefer not to have to change to different springs, unless not doing so would leave something on the table.

The truck will be daily driven, mostly road but the occassional weekend jaunt through the rocks.

Appreciate the help!

Cheers

Posted By: mark7171

Re: Truck 440 cam selection help... - 10/27/09 05:46 PM

The smaller summit cam with stock gears. The rule of the game says to match springs, cam, compression, intake,and carb for the engines' demand .

Use it with a Weiand action + (super low rise ribbed) and a 750 edelbrock AFB/or AVS carb. #2 streeet choice is TQ.

Can wind out to 4500-5000rpms, but you will not have "drag racer" top end.

Posted By: DaytonaTurbo

Re: Truck 440 cam selection help... - 10/27/09 05:46 PM

If you're looking for peak bottom end power and mileage, IMO you're best off sticking with a stock cam. The torq/rv grinds that are out there are so similar in spec to stock, I don't think it's worth the $$ to change. Put a set of straight dual exhaust on it, no x or h pipe, decent mufflers and even a stock 440 will sound decent.

Posted By: Pat_Whalen

Re: Truck 440 cam selection help... - 10/27/09 07:14 PM

Quote:

The smaller summit cam with stock gears. The rule of the game says to match springs, cam, compression, intake,and carb for the engines' demand .

Use it with a Weiand action + (super low rise ribbed) and a 750 edelbrock AFB/or AVS carb. #2 streeet choice is TQ.

Can wind out to 4500-5000rpms, but you will not have "drag racer" top end.

Would an Edelbrock Performer intake work well with this combination?

Posted By: Pat_Whalen

Re: Truck 440 cam selection help... - 10/27/09 07:25 PM

Quote:

If you're looking for peak bottom end power and mileage, IMO you're best off sticking with a stock cam. The torq/rv grinds that are out there are so similar in spec to stock, I don't think it's worth the $$ to change. Put a set of straight dual exhaust on it, no x or h pipe, decent mufflers and even a stock 440 will sound decent.

Is there anything out there that is budget-based (~100 bucks) that would come with lifters that is close to stock. I'm not aware of the stock specifications. I'd love to not have to spend money in the arena but due to a rusted cam and lifters, I'll need to replace them. And since I'm replacing them, I figured I'd find out what's the best option.

Posted By: scratchnfotraction

Re: Truck 440 cam selection help... - 10/27/09 07:41 PM

for low budget,you cant beat the smaller summet cam and lifter package

I am going with a hughes whiplash for mine

its for stock low comp engines,idles like a funny car and smoothes out around 2000 rpms,runs about 165$ for cam,IIRC

should work fine in the truck I am building

Posted By: LikarockCrusher

Re: Truck 440 cam selection help... - 10/27/09 07:50 PM

Quote:

for low budget,you cant beat the smaller summet cam and lifter package

I am going with a hughes whiplash for mine

its for stock low comp engines,idles like a funny car and smoothes out around 2000 rpms,runs about 165$ for cam,IIRC

should work fine in the truck I am building

Hey, Whats the specs. on that cam do you have them?

Posted By: LikarockCrusher

Re: Truck 440 cam selection help... - 10/27/09 07:57 PM

Give me a little while I'll give you some Hp and Tq specs. with RPM ratings.

Posted By: scratchnfotraction

Re: Truck 440 cam selection help... - 10/27/09 07:58 PM

look them up on hughes website

whiplash or muscle car cams,IIRC

early intake closing to build cyl pressure,so its not a dog...good street cruzer cam

gonna have them grind up a roller for the SB stepside I drive daily

running the 60710 voodoo cam in the sb right now

the 360 got the lunati bracket master II in it 292/292

want that sound but not the dog out the hole part the 292 has

Posted By: LikarockCrusher

Re: Truck 440 cam selection help... - 10/27/09 08:04 PM

All right thought you might had them on hand.

Posted By: scratchnfotraction

Re: Truck 440 cam selection help... - 10/27/09 08:06 PM

no didnt right it down sorry..

just have read/heard good things on the whiplash and I want to try one

if its as there sales pitch goes..idles like a funny car smoothes out around 2000 rpms and good for red light to red light performance

its right up my ally for a poser cam in the 440 truck

Posted By: Dodgem

Re: Truck 440 cam selection help... - 10/27/09 09:36 PM

The K6400 would be your best bet of the two!

Posted By: DaytonaTurbo

Re: Truck 440 cam selection help... - 10/27/09 09:49 PM

If your stock cam is trash, then the summit k6400 kit is your best bet. Stock lo-po 440 cam is said to be about 210 @050 and .430 lift.

Posted By: LikarockCrusher

Re: Truck 440 cam selection help... - 10/27/09 10:16 PM

The whiplash I believe is to much for your combo the other two you listed with your engine look good. Looks like the 6400 will be around 325 hp@4000 and 502 tq@2500 now this isn't perfect numbers but gives a good ideal. Good torque.

Posted By: scratchnfotraction

Re: Truck 440 cam selection help... - 10/27/09 10:32 PM

how is the whiplash too much??

its for a stock lopo engine with stock verter and low comp

building cyl pressure is good on a lopo/low comp engine..no?

Posted By: DaytonaTurbo

Re: Truck 440 cam selection help... - 10/27/09 10:56 PM

Quote:

how is the whiplash too much??

its for a stock lopo engine with stock verter and low comp

building cyl pressure is good on a lopo/low comp engine..no?

Depends on what you're using it for. Looking at the specs it's got a lot of duration but a fairly early intake valve closing angle to help build cylinder pressure. However it's also got a narrow LSA which is going to result in low vacuum and lowered throttle response and lower fuel mileage. If that's what you want then go for it. Should sound awesome at idle though. It sounds like a good cam for a low CR street machine, would not be my first choice for an off roader cam though.

Posted By: scratchnfotraction

Re: Truck 440 cam selection help... - 10/27/09 11:15 PM

I can see your point on that

may not be a good one for a 4x4 and low end

I am going with an 85 short bed 2 wheel drive for a street bruzer

a poser cam for showboating on the streets

Posted By: LikarockCrusher

Re: Truck 440 cam selection help... - 10/27/09 11:33 PM

Quote:

Quote:

how is the whiplash too much??

its for a stock lopo engine with stock verter and low comp

building cyl pressure is good on a lopo/low comp engine..no?

Depends on what you're using it for. Looking at the specs it's got a lot of duration but a fairly early intake valve closing angle to help build cylinder pressure. However it's also got a narrow LSA which is going to result in low vacuum and lowered throttle response and lower fuel mileage. If that's what you want then go for it. Should sound awesome at idle though. It sounds like a good cam for a low CR street machine, would not be my first choice for an off roader cam though.

He said he has stock intake,heads,and comp.

Posted By: Pat_Whalen

Re: Truck 440 cam selection help... - 10/28/09 12:36 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

how is the whiplash too much??

its for a stock lopo engine with stock verter and low comp

building cyl pressure is good on a lopo/low comp engine..no?

Depends on what you're using it for. Looking at the specs it's got a lot of duration but a fairly early intake valve closing angle to help build cylinder pressure. However it's also got a narrow LSA which is going to result in low vacuum and lowered throttle response and lower fuel mileage. If that's what you want then go for it. Should sound awesome at idle though. It sounds like a good cam for a low CR street machine, would not be my first choice for an off roader cam though.

He said he has stock intake,heads,and comp.

I think there may be some confusion.

Scratchin is going with the Hughes Whiplash cam for his truck.

I will most likely be going with the recommendations of the K6400 from Summit.

I believe both of us have very different goals for our trucks

Posted By: Pat_Whalen

Re: Truck 440 cam selection help... - 10/28/09 12:37 AM

So is it safe to assume that the stock valve springs on the 452 heads will be able to handle the 6400 cam? Or do I need to look into a new set of them.

Posted By: mark7171

Re: Truck 440 cam selection help... - 10/28/09 12:43 AM

[quote

Would an Edelbrock Performer intake work well with this combination?

Yes, Probably a better manifold. Performers are higher rise and have slightly higher torque points. the performer is 4"+'s tall the weiand is like 3 1/2.

I would change the old springs, and seals on the old stock head.

Posted By: Pat_Whalen

Re: Truck 440 cam selection help... - 10/28/09 01:37 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Would an Edelbrock Performer intake work well with this combination?

Yes, Probably a better manifold. Performers are higher rise and have slightly higher torque points. the performer is 4"+'s tall the weiand is like 3 1/2.

I would change the old springs, and seals on the old stock head.

Thanks. That makes me happy, because a performer is what I've got

Seals will be replaced as part of the entire gasket kit I'll be purchasing from summit/440source. Haven't decided on that one yet.

Posted By: PowerWagonDude

Re: Truck 440 cam selection help... - 10/28/09 01:43 AM

I have used Summits cam 6401(224@.050/.465 lift) in a 68 440 and 400s. It works good in a high compression 440 but is lopey. In a 400 it had good topend but no low end guts. I prefer PAW cam 22942- Pawengineparts dot com...
It has 204/214@.050/.420/.443 lift. It was a great truck cam in my 85 3/4 ton. Better mileage by far than 6401 and much more low rpm power. I think it would work good in a low compression 440. The PAW cams are cheap and good quality. I always use their lifters and valve springs also. I would use that cam with an Iron spread bore intake, a 1/2" spread bore to square hole adapter and a Holley 600 or a 750 #3310.

Posted By: DaytonaTurbo

Re: Truck 440 cam selection help... - 10/28/09 01:44 AM

Quote:

I believe both of us have very different goals for our trucks

I agree. For a 2wd street bruizer of a truck, the whiplash seems like it'd be a good choice. For an off-roader a milder cam is good.

Pat, I'm going to say your stock valve springs are probably going to be okay. This cam is similar in spec to the stock HP cam, and the HP 440's did get different valve springs than stock. However the lift is low and duration is mild. You're not going to get crazy high rpms out of it.

Posted By: LikarockCrusher

Re: Truck 440 cam selection help... - 10/28/09 01:58 AM

As the valve springs go check with Manufacturer on the height open. And Closed pounds. And if your springs are in good shape they probably good to go.

Posted By: PowerWagonDude

Re: Truck 440 cam selection help... - 10/28/09 02:14 AM

the PAW cam I recommended requires a spring with seat pressure of 100 lbs. and open pressure of 265 lbs. I have used it with stock valve springs. If you decide to use the Summit cam #6400 then make sure you have the high stall torque converter(fat ring gear). The PAW cam is rated 1500-4000 RPM. The Summit cam #6400 is 2000-4500 RPM. I guess the choice depends on what RPM range you do most of your driving

Attached picture 5570996-Const1017.JPG

Posted By: phantomx

Re: Truck 440 cam selection help... - 10/28/09 03:07 AM

You can get a resto magnum purple stick through Summit for under $180 w/lifters.
Travis..

Posted By: Neil

Re: Truck 440 cam selection help... - 10/28/09 03:18 AM

I have a small lunati voodoo cam in the 400 sbc that powers my daily beater pickup. Pulls good vacume, idles smooth, and it's very responsive. Why buy a stock mopar cam grind when there are cams with more modern designs that will perform better?

Get something with a wide lobe seperation angle to keep the idle smooth.

Posted By: Pat_Whalen

Re: Truck 440 cam selection help... - 10/28/09 04:15 AM

I'm honestly considering the summit 6400. My only reservations are not knowing if my stock valve springs can hold up to it, and not knowing what stall converter I'm running to make sure it's appropriate.

I did take a look at the PAW cam. Seems fairly close in relation to the summit cam. Like I said, without sacrificing drivability, vacuum, and lifespan, would the summit produce the same amount of power just at a slightly higher RPM? I do a lot of highway driving, so I wouldn't mind the 2000-4500 rpm range, but I'd also like to be able to get moving from stop light to stop light, if you know what I mean.

Posted By: phantomx

Re: Truck 440 cam selection help... - 10/28/09 04:58 AM

Quote:

Why buy a stock mopar cam grind when there are cams with more modern designs that will perform better?

Get something with a wide lobe seperation angle to keep the idle smooth.

The mopar cams (even the old ones) have pretty fast lift rates. Compare advertised vs .050 duration numbers with other cheap cams and you'll see the mopar cams have bigger .050 numbers for a given advertised number. The resto cam also has a 115deg lsa, so it should idle like...well kinda stock

Travis..

Posted By: R70RUNNER

Re: Truck 440 cam selection help... - 10/28/09 05:21 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Why buy a stock mopar cam grind when there are cams with more modern designs that will perform better?

Get something with a wide lobe seperation angle to keep the idle smooth.

. The resto cam also has a 115deg lsa, so it should idle like...well kinda stock

You don't say?

Posted By: Robbins

Re: Truck 440 cam selection help... - 10/28/09 02:10 PM

I ran the small Summit cam in my 446 cid. I really haven't had a chance to run it, other that it idles well with open headers in my 86 RC.

Posted By: Robbins

Re: Truck 440 cam selection help... - 10/28/09 02:16 PM

Quote:

the PAW cam I recommended requires a spring with seat pressure of 100 lbs. and open pressure of 265 lbs. I have used it with stock valve springs. If you decide to use the Summit cam #6400 then make sure you have the high stall torque converter(fat ring gear). The PAW cam is rated 1500-4000 RPM. The Summit cam #6400 is 2000-4500 RPM. I guess the choice depends on what RPM range you do most of your driving

Wow is this what you got your 440 in?

Posted By: phantomx

Re: Truck 440 cam selection help... - 10/29/09 12:33 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

You don't say?

I do, I do...
Travis..

Posted By: PowerWagonDude

Re: Truck 440 cam selection help... - 10/29/09 01:01 AM

No thats not my 440 truck. That is my good gas mileage rig. It has a slant six with a granny low four speed

Posted By: R70RUNNER

Re: Truck 440 cam selection help... - 10/29/09 02:02 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

You don't say?

I do, I do...
Travis..

Posted By: RalleyA12

Re: Truck 440 cam selection help... - 11/03/09 06:22 PM

Check out the Hughes line of camshafts. They have some with short duration but they still have some pretty good lift to them.

Posted By: 11secondC

Re: Truck 440 cam selection help... - 11/04/09 12:25 AM

I ran the 6400 summit cam in my '67 VIP with a rering/rebearing 413 years ago. Other than headers motor was stock. Could barely tell it had any lope to it, ran out of breath at 5k, but would melt the right tire off even with the 2.76's from a dead punch.