Moparts

normal distributor advance

Posted By: warpspeed

normal distributor advance - 09/24/09 01:53 AM

anyone tell me what the maximum advance on a distributor is? Mine is showing over thirty degrees mechanical without vaccum. In other words, I set the distributor initially on 15 degrees at idle without vaccum. Speed the engine up to 2500 RRM and the timing shoots to at least 45. I adjusted it back to center or "0" the timing light out, let the engine run back to idle. Turn off the engine and you can't get the engine to start unless turning the distributor back to the initial 15 degrees again. bad distributor?
Posted By: Dougsmopars

Re: normal distributor advance - 09/24/09 01:59 AM

Is it pinging? How are you telling it's at 45 total?
Posted By: warpspeed

Re: normal distributor advance - 09/24/09 02:27 AM

I have a timing light that has an adjustable dial on the back. I start at idle with the dial showing approx 15 degrees. I heat the throttle up to approx 2500 degrees and adjust the dial to whatever it takes to make the timing mark on the balancer go back to "0". Then I look at the dial and see 45.
Posted By: aarcuda

Re: normal distributor advance - 09/24/09 03:01 AM

yup a stock distributor can have that much advance or more. ive seen 34 mechanical advance before
Posted By: cuda66318

Re: normal distributor advance - 09/24/09 10:59 PM

Distributors are Universal fit, which simply means they are set up for nothing in the Universe.

That's why we curve a thousand distributors a year

Now if you have a 360 motor in a tree chipper then that distrbutor might work.
Posted By: warpspeed

Re: normal distributor advance - 09/24/09 11:17 PM

Okay, this is for a big block. Does this mean that the advance on a big block once set isn't at 35 but something higher? I guess that is what it means to curve a distributor. If the maximun timing is suppose to be at 35 with a big block too, then I am going to have to add material to the slots to reduce the maximum advance, right? And, oh yeah, this reading is with the vaccum disconnected. With it connected, the maximum timing is out of sight. Maybe this is why my engine has never really been a super great perfomer.
Posted By: Dougsmopars

Re: normal distributor advance - 09/24/09 11:23 PM

I'd still like to know if it's pinging. If it's not then no way does it have that much advance i'd look into another timing light.
Posted By: warpspeed

Re: normal distributor advance - 09/25/09 12:42 AM

Pinging? When does the pinging matter. Inititally under load, or at speed with new pressure on the pedal. Reason I ask is that there is pinging anytime I apply new pressure on the pedal.
I replaced my timing light last night. The one I have been using for years has been dropped off the car. This created a small problem in that it would not light up under 21 degrees. It was very accurate above 21. The new light? Is very accurate and showing the exact same thing as the old light. 15 initially, 52 at maximum @ 3000 RPM and above. I am confused too. I replaced the newest distributor with the one that has been on the engine for eight years. The same thing is showing with it 15 degrees at idle, 52 at maximum. Help!
Posted By: 6T6Cuda

Re: normal distributor advance - 09/25/09 12:48 AM

You have a few options...

I assume it is a stock distributor, you can dial it down so at 3k rpm you get 36 or so (and let the initial be what it is), get the distributor recurved by welding up the slots and grinding them down, or the best option is to get a mopar performance distributor which has an adjustable mechanical advance, and set your initial where you want, and set the total mechanical back to what the motor wants at WOT.
Posted By: 6T6Cuda

Re: normal distributor advance - 09/25/09 12:51 AM

Quote:

Is it pinging? How are you telling it's at 45 total?




The motor will more then likely not ping even with 45 - 55 deg unless it is under a load. You get about that much advance when you have the vac advance hooked up... - you do not get pinging because the motor is not at WOT, when you go to WOT it takes the vac advance out and the motor is back to the mechanical advance. The more advance when the motor is under light load (cruse) is so you can run a leaner mixture and get better fuel econ. The leaner mixture takes more time to burn, so you need more advance.
Posted By: Dougsmopars

Re: normal distributor advance - 09/25/09 01:01 AM

I mention pinging because if there was no pinging when driving then there is no way you could have that much advance. If driving the car you had no pinging then your timing light is wrong or dial is wrong or something. There isn't any pump fuel avail that would allow 50 Degree's advance with out it pinging. It was only meant as a quick check to see if timing light was working right. I'd recurve the dist. I did mine. Car wants 22 degrees initial. Curved mine for 38 total in by 2800 rpm. I have the MP dist with adjustable advance.
Posted By: warpspeed

Re: normal distributor advance - 09/25/09 01:29 AM

Dougsmopars, thanks for the response. I don't have a clue about recurving a distributor. Rapid Robert is sending me a curve chart that he has.
I haven't even heard of recurving the distributor.
I don't understand why I have been able to drive the car as long as I have without problems, but I have always had the pinging under pressure from aceleration UNLESS I full throttle it in a lower gear. The older distributor is one I purchased with the chrysler ecu when I started driving the car eight or so years ago. The latest distributor was purchased based upon recommendation by Rick Erhenburg. Its a 71 big block reman. He was very specific in the one to get. Would the lack of power, based upon what feels like missing be likely because of the timing too far advanced.

Last question, how do you fix this? Recurve by adding metal to the slots? I belive that is what Rapid Robert is talking about.

One other thing, I have spent some time discussing the timing with my machine shop. They are assuring my that my compression is not high enough to cause this pinging. I use 93 octane all the time. Once, I added race gas to the tank and it seemed to eliminate the knocking. I need to get some more gas now, so I will add race gas in it now to see if it helps.

Thanks again.
Posted By: warpspeed

Re: normal distributor advance - 09/25/09 01:34 AM

I have tried to set the curve at 3K at 35 degrees. I turn the engine off and the engine will not start until I back it off again to the 15 degrees. I can't do that everytime I jump in the car to go somewhere. Plus it really doesn't seem to want to run well at that setting. Any ther ideas. I am game for all the help I can get.
Posted By: warpspeed

Re: normal distributor advance - 09/25/09 01:36 AM

sorry I missed this advice. That is what I think I am going to have to do. Now how do you take the distributor apart to get to the slot plate. Thank you
Posted By: Dcuda69

Re: normal distributor advance - 09/25/09 01:40 AM

We know nothing about this BB,yet we are quick to give timing advice! ALL engine combos want something a little different. Iron head? Alum? Stroker? Cam selection? Comp. ratio? Remember....it's the "pinging" we DON'T hear that causes big trouble! Need more info..but max timing(w/o vac) will probably end up @ 38 or less!
Posted By: JimG

Re: normal distributor advance - 09/25/09 01:42 AM

Quote:

Last question, how do you fix this? Recurve by adding metal to the slots? I belive that is what Rapid Robert is talking about.




Attached is a photo that shows the slots in the process of being modified with JB Weld (not recommended) but you can see the proceedure nevertheless. One slot has been filed to the desired length (see the chart Rapid Robert is sending) and the other slot has been shortened, but not yet filed.

Distributor recurving is one of those basic things you must do when the camshaft is changed to one with sportier valve timing.

Attached picture 5504018-DSC_0034small.JPG
Posted By: warpspeed

Re: normal distributor advance - 09/25/09 01:51 AM

Iron head 452's from a 77. Standard stroke for big block. Hughes 2832 cam, standard rockers. Should be 10:1 base upon piston specifications. Now the pistons where suppose to be at "0" deck when purchased but machinist had to trim deck .020 so they stick up above the deck .020. Once again 52 degrees max. Now one other thing, the MP distributor has a vaccum advance in its pod. I tried to back it off ccw as Prof. Erhenburg says to do. It didn't change a thing. I backed it off three full turns without a change. Not sure that is normal.
Posted By: warpspeed

Re: normal distributor advance - 09/25/09 01:55 AM

Wow! Great! That is great information. I now know what I have to do. Thanks.
Posted By: Dougsmopars

Re: normal distributor advance - 09/25/09 02:06 AM

If you have one of the MP electronic dist it maybe one with adjustable advance. You know once you have the reluctor off.
Posted By: Dougsmopars

Re: normal distributor advance - 09/25/09 02:08 AM

If you have 35 total at 3000 rpm at what rpm are you finding 45? With a total of 35 at 3000 you should not be to advanced to restart the motor? Now i'm getting confused??????
Posted By: warpspeed

Re: normal distributor advance - 09/25/09 02:25 AM

What I am trying to unsuccessfully say is this: I start at 15 degrees at idle, rev the engine up to 3000 RPM, and find the dial on the light to show 52 degrees. I adjust the distributor to bring the timing down to 35. Actually I haven't checked where the idle is after adjustment to 35. But, I need to make it clear, the engine will not start once I set the timing at 35. The engine sounds as if it is struggling against itself. I turn the distributor back to 15 degrees at idle and it immediately fires up. It also sounds good at idle.

I think the key here is the fact that I have a hotter cam in the engine than earlier this year. I will plan to recurve the distributor as it has been recommended. That makes the most sense to all of it.
Posted By: phantomx

Re: normal distributor advance - 09/25/09 04:45 AM

It sounds like your dist has 37 degrees of mechanical advance built into it, not good. Lets say your car likes the 15 degrees to idle, and runs perfect with 38 degrees total. Your dist should have 23 of mechanical advance. With your current setup at 35 total, your base would be 17 degrees after TDC, no wonder it won't start. Fix your current dist, or buy a new one.
Travis..
Posted By: JimG

Re: normal distributor advance - 09/25/09 11:27 AM

Quote:

Now one other thing, the MP distributor has a vaccum advance in its pod. I tried to back it off ccw as Prof. Erhenburg says to do. It didn't change a thing. I backed it off three full turns without a change. Not sure that is normal.




What the allen screw does is change the amount of vacuum required to pull in the vac adv pot - it does not change the total amount of vacuum advance. You must shorten the stroke of the arm to do that.

If you crank the screw all the way in one direction (I forget which way it works) it might take 12-14" of vacuum to fully advance the mechanism. Screw it all the way in the other direction, it might take 5" to pull it in. It might pull in at idle (a bad thing). That's why it's best to know exactly how much vacuum is required for the diaphragm to begin to move, and how much for it to be pulled all the way in. Sometimes, I'll tee in a vacuum gauge to the vacuum advance, put the gauge in the car, and ride around to make sure it's pulling in under the right circumstances.

Leave the vacuum advance alone (and disconnected) until you get the initial timing and the mechanical advance right. Do those things first, vac advance last.
Posted By: warpspeed

Re: normal distributor advance - 09/25/09 01:24 PM

Thank you very very much JimG. I am going to take the recurve information from Rapid Robert and your instructions and fix this problem. I have been riding around with this one distributor for several years. I now realize that my advance is way off. No wonder there has been a lack of power. I will take one of the distributors in house and fix it.

Do you need to have the slots in the arm Mig welded, torch welded, or TIG welded? I don't want to mess the part up by warping it if the Mig weld is too much heat.
Posted By: warpspeed

Re: normal distributor advance - 09/25/09 01:27 PM

Yep, yep, yep. You have hit the nail on the head. I am afraid I will run into the same problem with another "new" distributor though. I now have two distributors with the same problem. I hope I can fix what I have. Thank you.
Posted By: dirtybee

Re: normal distributor advance - 09/25/09 03:42 PM

use a mig and just do one zap at a time and let it cool between zaps if you are worried about warping. the metal is pretty thick though so i don't think you have to worry.
Posted By: JohnRR

Re: normal distributor advance - 09/25/09 03:48 PM

Quote:

Yep, yep, yep. You have hit the nail on the head. I am afraid I will run into the same problem with another "new" distributor though. I now have two distributors with the same problem. I hope I can fix what I have. Thank you.




stock mopar distributors have 30 plus degrees of advance in them so you aren't going to buy one that will just drop in .

IF you buy a NEW MP dist it has an adjustable mechnical advance , 40years too late , also in another thread on this subject a member that chimed in above sells a kit to shorten this without doing any welding to the dist .
Posted By: GTXKen

Re: normal distributor advance - 09/25/09 05:40 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Last question, how do you fix this? Recurve by adding metal to the slots? I belive that is what Rapid Robert is talking about.




Attached is a photo that shows the slots in the process of being modified with JB Weld (not recommended) but you can see the proceedure nevertheless. One slot has been filed to the desired length (see the chart Rapid Robert is sending) and the other slot has been shortened, but not yet filed.

Distributor recurving is one of those basic things you must do when the camshaft is changed to one with sportier valve timing.




Would anyone care to send me or post this here chart you are speaking of?
Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: normal distributor advance - 09/25/09 07:05 PM

this one

Attached picture 5505345-slotlengthchart.jpg
Posted By: hooziewhatsit

Re: normal distributor advance - 09/25/09 07:06 PM

another text chart in this thread
https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/show...e=4#Post4774218
Posted By: warpspeed

Re: normal distributor advance - 09/25/09 07:23 PM

You guys are great. I have been enlightened to a problem I didn't know existed or would have known was a problem. With the information from dirtybee about the welding, I can fix this problem. Will have to work on it over the weekend and let ya'll know how it went. Rapidrobert sent the chart which indicates this subject has been discussed before. Hope this helps others.
Posted By: warpspeed

Re: normal distributor advance - 09/25/09 07:26 PM

Who is this guy? This sounds better than welding, but at least I can get started now with one of the distributors.
Posted By: BradH

Re: normal distributor advance - 09/25/09 08:06 PM

Quote:

... also in another thread on this subject a member that chimed in above sells a kit to shorten this without doing any welding to the dist .



The link to that other thread is https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/show...e=0#Post5500293
Posted By: menomoniemopars

Re: normal distributor advance - 09/26/09 01:04 AM

Quote:

this one




the above chart Is this for both slots?or just one side?
thanks!
Posted By: Dougsmopars

Re: normal distributor advance - 09/26/09 01:27 AM

each slot. They need to be the same size as there are 2 weights. You can swap around different springs to get different curves. One light spring and one heaver spring but the 2 slots have to be the same size
Posted By: JohnRR

Re: normal distributor advance - 09/26/09 12:07 PM

Technically you only have to do one slot because once the cam slot hits the shortened slot it's not going any further .
Posted By: 2RT'S

Re: normal distributor advance - 09/27/09 01:58 PM

I would have that distributer put in a distributer machine and have it set up. It doesn't cost that much to have it set up and you will be able to set it up so its all in by 3000 rpm's. Total mechanical timing should be between 32 and 38 degrees typically. Total mechanical is your initial setting plus your mechanical advance. After the mechanical is set then you can adjust the vacuum advance, if you have and adjustable can.
Posted By: warpspeed

Re: normal distributor advance - 10/12/09 05:52 PM

Finally, guys and gals, I only have one thing to say about my electrical system problems, WOW! I have finally had the time to tear one of my distributors down and "weld and grind" down the slots. This was described as 'recurving' the distributor. My first request for help came with a one sentence response; -check the ground-. Well, I can tell you sincerely- I checked the ground. Everywhere! Couldn't find anything wrong with it. But, the problem persisted. The new MSD Street fire unit I purchased wouldn't work, but everything continued to check out. The timing was showing 52 mechanical at 3,000 RPM. I worked at everything I could remember to FIX the problem(s).

Finally rapid robert instructed me to "recurve" the distributor. Well, I am here to tell you that it helped, but, I was still off. Finally, I removed the MSD, it would only work part of the time anyway. You could tell that it wasn't sending fire along the system. I still can't get the MSD to work at the moment, so the Chrysler ECU stays on for a while. I also removed the adjustable rockers, ouch! I finally had to start over again with the basic engine, still without sucess.

Then, by accident, I touched the ground cable terminal at the battery after an episode when trying to start the engine. OUCH! That sucker was hot! The brain starts working and I think "bingo", so I decided to swap the ground cable from my 70 TA. Hold up there horsey, the car fired right up! I adjusted the timing and took it for a ride. WHAT a difference! The ground cable was a number 2 wire with a very good clear plastic cover that showed nothing wrong with it. BUT, the wiring inside the terminal on the battery was not very well connected. I wasn't able to see the problem because it was under the metal of the terminal connector. There was no corrosion or anything else to indicate a problem. But, resistance must have been up and the amperage was not be able to get through, I guess. Once, the ground wire was replaced, everything started to come into its own (the MSD still won't work). The timing was down (before the recurving) to 45 (from 52) at 3000+. Once recurving, the timing is now at 35 @ 3000. (This a 440) This car has never run this well. The engine doesn't sound like it is missing. It is responsive like my small blocks. Running down the street, I can touch the accelerator and there is an immediate response. Gee, can you say "beautiful"?

Thank you Rapid Robert and the rest of you for your information, encouragement, and etc. Its is great to have a 'HOT' running car. All I can add to this is that if all the wiring and components are properly working and connected, these old systems are easier to diagnose and fix. AND CHECK THE GROUND.
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